When to NOT HELP! CALL IN SHOW

Stefan Molyneux

Philosopher Stefan Molyneux arms a caller through childhood trauma and addict-friend ethics, wielding confrontation to prioritize the truly change-ready.  0:00:00 Opening Thoughts  0:00:51 Seeking Help  0:02:12 Childhood Reflections  0:03:19 Language Barriers  0:05:38 Navigating Conflict  0:06:18 Understanding Suicide  0:08:11 Professional Aspirations  0:09:19 The Reluctant Client  0:11:24 Exploring Interventions  0:14:10 Fear of Confrontation  0:16:15 Confronting Abusers  0:19:13 The Nature of Fear  0:22:18 The Impact of Evil  0:24:30 Engaging in Disagreement  0:28:44 The Ethics of Intervention  0:32:26 Opportunity Cost  0:37:05 The Cost of Helping  0:40:53 Triage in Helping  0:43:35 Recognizing Evildoers  0:47:47 Fighting Fair vs. Dirty  1:03:29 Understanding Your Impact  1:08:03 Future Aspirations   GET FREEDOMAIN MERCH! https://shop.freedomain.com/  SUBSCRIBE TO ME ON X! https://x.com/StefanMolyneux  Follow me on Youtube! https://www.youtube.com/@freedomain1  GET MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING', THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI, AND THE FULL AUDIOBOOK! https://peacefulparenting.com/  Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!  Subscribers get 12 HOURS on the "Truth About the French Revolution," multiple interactive multi-lingual philosophy AIs trained on thousands of hours of my material - as well as AIs for Real-Time Relationships, Bitcoin, Peaceful Parenting, and Call-In Shows!  You also receive private livestreams, HUNDREDS of exclusive premium shows, early release podcasts, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!  See you soon! https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2025

Transcript

00:00:00I am happy to help as best I can.

00:00:02If you want to read your message or tell me how I'm your best help, I'm all ears.

00:00:07Sure.

00:00:08I just wanted to check if my volume is too low, because sometimes I can't speak too loud or too

00:00:14low.

00:00:15Is it fine?

00:00:16Okay.

00:00:17So, yeah.

00:00:18Hello.

00:00:19You can call me Luis or Luis.

00:00:23And I've been a listener for a couple of months.

00:00:26So, not too long ago.

00:00:30And, I mean, I'm not sure if you read the message.

00:00:33I don't have it with me right now.

00:00:36But I think the best way to sum up what I'm trying to talk with you is about healing from

00:00:45childhood trauma.

00:00:46Like the effects of childhood trauma and trying to recover from them.

00:00:52All right.

00:00:53Sounds good.

00:00:53So, tell me what's going on.

00:00:55Yeah.

00:00:56So, to give you more context, I'm a young man.

00:01:02I'm trying to work helping people with their own issues.

00:01:05And I figured that I should talk with you because you are someone who has done a presentation before on

00:01:14mental illnesses.

00:01:17Specifically one where I think it was taken down.

00:01:20You can correct me if it wasn't.

00:01:23You can correct me if it wasn't.

00:01:24You can correct me if it wasn't.

00:01:25You can correct me if it wasn't.

00:01:27Well, pretty much everything was taken down over time.

00:01:29So, I have certainly done the truth about mental illness for sure.

00:01:32Yeah.

00:01:33And I've been trying.

00:01:35I did it before.

00:01:37And I'm trying currently to help someone.

00:01:42There's a very tiny chance that they might be listening to this.

00:01:46And it's not a problem.

00:01:48If they are, I just wanted to know that I really care about them.

00:01:52I want them well.

00:01:54And the thing is, I'm trying to help this person.

00:01:57But I'm also trying to, I think my own problems, I think my own issues are stopping me from being

00:02:06able to help another person.

00:02:09And actually, you know, develop in my life.

00:02:13I think that's the best way to explain the situation.

00:02:17Okay.

00:02:17So, tell me a little bit about your history, if you don't mind.

00:02:20Sure.

00:02:21Is there anything you'd like to know?

00:02:24Yeah.

00:02:24In particular childhood, what happened with your childhood?

00:02:29You know, the unfortunate but usual bad childhood.

00:02:34You know, my parents weren't that great.

00:02:38And I actually still live with them.

00:02:40So, it's, you know, I'm still trying to separate.

00:02:43Well, that depends.

00:02:44How old are you?

00:02:46I'm 21.

00:02:47Okay.

00:02:48Got it.

00:02:48So, a young man.

00:02:49Okay.

00:02:50Yeah.

00:02:51So, yeah.

00:02:52Not a great age.

00:02:54Childhood.

00:02:55Some ups and some lows.

00:02:59And just to start with my own issues.

00:03:02I feel nervous just talking to you.

00:03:04Like, for some reason, I feel like I'm not going to be able to talk with you.

00:03:10Because English isn't my first language.

00:03:12So, I'm like, oh, I'm going to sound weird.

00:03:13And I'm not going to be able to express the situation clearly.

00:03:19Well, I understand that.

00:03:21And, of course, I have great admiration for anyone who can speak a second language.

00:03:24So, don't worry about that too much.

00:03:26If I have any questions or I'm finding something difficult to understand, that's not your fault.

00:03:30I mean, I don't speak your language either.

00:03:32So, take your time on that and I'll let you know.

00:03:36Thanks.

00:03:36Thanks for that, man.

00:03:39So, when you're doing calls with people, I notice that you're very inquisitive, if that's an English term.

00:03:48Like, you make questions.

00:03:49You interrupt people.

00:03:51Because, you know, they tend to avoid subjects and things like that.

00:03:56And this week, I had the experience of talking to someone.

00:04:01And I think they were trying to hide, you know, trying to divert subjects.

00:04:09And then this comes to how I'm someone who's afraid of disagreements.

00:04:14I'm someone who's afraid of conflicts.

00:04:16And I feel hesitant to interrupt people and, you know, investigate what's actually happening.

00:04:26And besides that, the fact that I'm young, you know, the fact that I don't have a lot of life

00:04:31experience,

00:04:33I feel like I don't even, I might not have the best answers for someone, you know, when I'm trying

00:04:38to help them.

00:04:40I just wanted to know if you have some insight into that.

00:04:43And specifically, I'm trying to help someone who has a brother who is basically addicted to psychiatric drugs

00:04:52and recently has striped to kill themselves.

00:04:56And if you can stop me if this is going to be, like, bad for YouTube and stuff, you know,

00:05:02talking about suicide and that stuff.

00:05:07Yeah, don't worry about that.

00:05:09Yeah, I'm trying to intervene.

00:05:12I'm trying to help.

00:05:13And I think my own issues is stopping me from being able to do my best.

00:05:18The things I said, you know, I'm afraid of conflict, I'm afraid of actually, like, making the person not like

00:05:26me

00:05:26because I'm starting to reveal the fact that they might be not doing the best thing.

00:05:33And, you know, we all know that people can destroy themselves, they can make bad choices,

00:05:38you can't literally force them into being healthy.

00:05:41But I also hoped to get some of your input on, like, what kind of stuff you do when you

00:05:49know someone

00:05:50and they're destroying themselves, you know, what do you say to them?

00:05:53How do you actually intervene in that situation?

00:05:58Like, you have a young guy, 22, addicted to psychiatric drugs,

00:06:04also trying to separate from his brother who has taken care of him,

00:06:09almost took a parental role.

00:06:12You know, it's a lot of stuff.

00:06:18Yes, it is.

00:06:20And help me understand.

00:06:23And, you know, obviously, I appreciate your sensitivity about this issue and your desire to help.

00:06:28But why would you think you could help somebody who's suicidal and an addict?

00:06:36So I've been trying to work or I've been working with mental health and that stuff for some years now.

00:06:45But I still think that I don't have a lot of experience.

00:06:50Sorry, just help me understand what that means because you're in your early 20s, right?

00:06:54Sure, sure.

00:06:54Yeah.

00:06:55So I decided that I wanted to work with helping people with their mental stuff when I was 14.

00:07:03And I got certificated in hypnotherapy when I was 18.

00:07:11And since then, I just started, like, ever since I was 14, I just started reading a lot of psychology

00:07:18books,

00:07:19a lot of youngs specifically.

00:07:23Also, I'm reading about Wilhelm Reich right now.

00:07:28So, well, yeah, so I try to, I helped people before, but I never actually got to help or intervene

00:07:37with someone who is this, like, level of...

00:07:40No, sorry.

00:07:42So, just make sure I understand.

00:07:43So, and listen, again, I appreciate your desire to help people.

00:07:47But is it because you want it to be your job or your occupation, like, you want to become a

00:07:52psychologist or something like that?

00:07:54I actually get paid for that.

00:07:56Like, I'm not doing it for free.

00:07:58Oh, you get paid for it?

00:07:59Okay.

00:07:59Got it.

00:08:00All right.

00:08:00His brother is willing to pay me.

00:08:04And, yeah, I'm trying to help people with that.

00:08:08And also, like, trying to gain money in the process.

00:08:12Okay, got it.

00:08:13All right.

00:08:13So, you're asking me for help with a profession that you have, and people are hiring you as a hypnotherapist.

00:08:20Is that right?

00:08:22Not necessarily as a hypnotherapist.

00:08:24Just a therapist.

00:08:27Are you a, sorry, because therapist, do you mean like a life coach or something?

00:08:32Because you sound too young to be a licensed practitioner.

00:08:35Yeah, yeah.

00:08:36I didn't do anything formal.

00:08:39Listen, I'm not, this is not negative.

00:08:39I'm not criticizing.

00:08:40I'm just trying to understand your general circumstances.

00:08:44Yeah, I didn't do anything formal besides that.

00:08:48Besides the hypnotherapy and some reading?

00:08:50Is that right?

00:08:51Yes.

00:08:52Okay.

00:08:53So, you put yourself forward as a life coach, which is, you know, whatever.

00:08:56That's fine.

00:08:56So, you put yourself forward as a life coach, and people are paying you for that.

00:09:01And so, the young man who you say is addicted to SSRIs, has he hired you, or has someone else

00:09:08hired you?

00:09:09His brother hired me.

00:09:11His brother hired you.

00:09:12Now, the person who is...

00:09:13Older brother.

00:09:14Yeah.

00:09:14The person who is the addict, is that person, does he want to be helped?

00:09:19Does he admit that there's a problem?

00:09:21Is he enthusiastic to be helped by the skills that you can bring to bear?

00:09:25So, it seems like he's not...

00:09:28Yeah, I'm just going to say he's not interested.

00:09:31Like, sometimes he accepts a bit of help, but in general, he's very unwilling.

00:09:37Okay.

00:09:37So, can you help people who don't want to be helped?

00:09:40It's a big question for life as a whole, so I don't have any final answer, but what do you

00:09:44think?

00:09:45Well, I'd say no.

00:09:46You can't force someone to make good choices and be helped.

00:09:50Well, I didn't say force.

00:09:52I said, can you help someone who doesn't want to be helped?

00:09:54I didn't bring force into it.

00:09:57I guess you can, actually.

00:09:59I think you can.

00:10:01Okay.

00:10:01So, you can help him even though he doesn't particularly want to be helped?

00:10:06I think so.

00:10:07Not necessarily, but yeah, I think it's possible.

00:10:10Okay.

00:10:11So, how do you help people who don't want to be helped?

00:10:14And again, it's a big question, so I appreciate your thoughts on this.

00:10:17I'm curious what you think.

00:10:19All right.

00:10:20So, I don't know if you've ever witnessed a situation where someone's doing something that is bad for them, or

00:10:29bad for others, or just a bad choice in general.

00:10:32And they never asked, or they even resist, criticism, help, that stuff.

00:10:39And then someone comes, criticizes them, exposes them, you know, just physically tries to help them, but by confronting them.

00:10:52And that actually can make them the person better, you know, it can actually help them.

00:10:58Like, I've been helped in this way, I imagine.

00:11:00I've had people come to me, or I come to them, and they told me what I was doing wrong,

00:11:07that I was doing something bad in X area.

00:11:11And, yeah, I think you can help someone, even if they don't think they can be helped, or don't want

00:11:19to be helped.

00:11:20Okay.

00:11:21And how long have you been working with the person who is the addict, you say?

00:11:25This is very recent, and the whole situation got me thinking that, well, I don't want someone killing themselves.

00:11:35Like, I'd be very sad if someone I know kills themselves.

00:11:40And I thought, oh, maybe I should talk to Stefan.

00:11:43You know, he's helped me a lot.

00:11:46Like, man, I wasn't, I didn't say that before, but thank you for the stuff you're doing.

00:11:54Oh, I appreciate that.

00:11:55Okay, so how is it that I could best help you with the time that we have?

00:11:59I just, I understand the general situation, but if you can give me some more specific guidance on the best

00:12:04way to help.

00:12:05Of course.

00:12:08So, why do you think I get afraid of confronting people or disagreeing with them?

00:12:15Like, just this week I had a disagreement, and I felt really terrible.

00:12:22And, like, how do you heal from that, or how do you stop being like that?

00:12:28Right.

00:12:28Okay.

00:12:29It's a great question.

00:12:30It's a great question.

00:12:30And, again, a big old challenging issue.

00:12:33Okay.

00:12:33So, the first thing I think when it comes to fears is to try and figure out what specifically you're

00:12:39afraid of.

00:12:41Right?

00:12:41So, the question is, if I understand it rightly, your question is, why am I afraid of confrontation?

00:12:48Now, are you afraid of confrontation, or is it something else that you're afraid of?

00:12:54And what I mean by that is, if you knew ahead of time that the confrontation was going to go

00:12:59well, would you be afraid of it?

00:13:01Well, that's a good question.

00:13:03I haven't thought of that.

00:13:06Yes, I knew the confrontation could...

00:13:09And by going well, you mean, like, no one's getting hurt, or no...

00:13:14Well, it just turns out to be productive.

00:13:15Sometimes confrontations can be, like, life-saving and very helpful to people, right?

00:13:21Yeah, yeah.

00:13:22Yeah, so, if I knew that it was going to be productive, I definitely feel way less afraid, like, way

00:13:29better.

00:13:30Right.

00:13:31So, it's sort of the question, when people say, I'm afraid of heights, what are they really afraid of?

00:13:36Are they afraid of heights?

00:13:38Probably not.

00:13:39It's probably not heights in particular that they're afraid of.

00:13:42What are they afraid of?

00:13:44It's death.

00:13:45Yeah, they're afraid of death.

00:13:46They're not afraid of heights.

00:13:48They're not afraid of falling.

00:13:50They're afraid of falling and dying.

00:13:53Right?

00:13:53So, it's important to be specific about fears.

00:13:56So, when people say, I'm frightened of spiders, what are they frightened of?

00:14:03You think it's still death when it's something that's...

00:14:07I mean, yeah, spiders can't kill you, but, you know, most spiders won't.

00:14:11Do you think that's still death?

00:14:12Well, yeah, sure.

00:14:13They're afraid of...

00:14:14They're not afraid of spiders.

00:14:15They're afraid of poison.

00:14:17They're afraid of poison and death and all that kind of stuff.

00:14:20And, you know, as you say, spiders can kill you.

00:14:21So, it's not irrational to be afraid of spiders.

00:14:25And a lot of women, of course, have a fear of mice and rats, right?

00:14:29And why do they have a fear of mice and rats?

00:14:33Well, because they are dirty.

00:14:35They can...

00:14:35They carry disease.

00:14:37They can bite your children.

00:14:38They can give you rabies.

00:14:39They can also, of course, they can lay their...

00:14:43They can poop in your food and then you have to throw out all your food, which means you

00:14:47might starve to death.

00:14:48So, people are usually afraid of very specific things.

00:14:52And I think it's kind of important to know what your fear is more particularly than something

00:14:58general like conflict, if that makes sense.

00:15:01I mean, some people love conflict.

00:15:03I like debating with people.

00:15:04I like it when, you know, when people call into my show and they disagree with me, I'll

00:15:08put them right up front, you know, especially if they really strongly disagree with me.

00:15:11And really, if they dislike me, that's even better, right?

00:15:15So, I'm happy to have these kinds of conflicts for a variety of reasons, which we don't have

00:15:21to get into.

00:15:21So, whereas if somebody were to push me off a cliff, I'd be upset about that no matter

00:15:27what.

00:15:27So, I think it's important to be aware of what people...

00:15:32What you're specifically afraid of.

00:15:34And it's not something as generic or as general as conflict because there's nothing wrong with

00:15:39conflict.

00:15:39Conflict can be very healthy, it can be very helpful, it can be very productive.

00:15:44So, what are you afraid of in particular?

00:15:48That's actually a question that I haven't been able to answer for a long time.

00:15:54Like, why is it that some people make me feel really afraid and some don't?

00:15:59And why is it that I feel so terrible after fighting some people and others, I don't.

00:16:07But particularly, I don't actually feel afraid or I don't feel bad for fighting my parents,

00:16:14for example.

00:16:16But strangers...

00:16:18Like, you know how you talk about the dragon with fiery breath that is protecting the princess

00:16:24and the man comes and saves the princess and the dragon is the abusive parents?

00:16:29Yeah.

00:16:29So, I actually faced the abusive parental figure of my girlfriend and I felt so bad after doing

00:16:40that.

00:16:40Like, I literally wasn't able to eat properly for like four to three days after.

00:16:47Okay.

00:16:47And what happened with that confrontation?

00:16:51Well, she came to us because she wanted...

00:16:57I mean, I don't think it's important to say the whole context, but like, she came to my

00:17:04house...

00:17:04Sorry, she being who?

00:17:06...looking to the parental figure of...

00:17:09It's my girlfriend's older sister who took a motherly role because her own mother couldn't

00:17:15do this and her father is way more abusive.

00:17:21Yeah, a bad situation in general.

00:17:25So, yeah, the sister, the big sister came to my house looking for to like talk with my

00:17:34girlfriend, I guess, or like punish her, bring her home.

00:17:37Well, I'm not sure what she was actually trying to achieve there, but I... my attitude in the

00:17:45situation was like, let's see if I can negotiate with her.

00:17:49Let's see if I can, you know, reach a compromise.

00:17:53Let's see if we can actually reach an agreement.

00:17:55And I was trying to be reasonable and now I actually regret trying to be reasonable with

00:18:01such a horrible person.

00:18:04But yeah, I just invited her to sit down, let's talk, and she was just trying to humiliate

00:18:13me, like, you know, calling names.

00:18:16And even though, rationally, I know that I'm doing the right thing, or actually, at least

00:18:22I think that I'm doing the right thing.

00:18:25So, when the situation ended, I felt really terrible.

00:18:29Is that enough context and details?

00:18:32Yeah.

00:18:32Or do you want something?

00:18:33Okay.

00:18:34Okay.

00:18:35So, let's look at what you were nervous about.

00:18:37And again, this is a good question.

00:18:41So, I assume that the sister can't do any particular harm to you.

00:18:45It's not like she's going to hire some guy to beat you up, or she can't get you fired,

00:18:49or whatever it is, right?

00:18:50She can't do any major harm to you.

00:18:52Is that right?

00:18:53I actually was afraid she might be crazy to that level, but realistically speaking,

00:18:59she ain't going to do that.

00:19:01Okay.

00:19:02All right.

00:19:03So, why are we afraid of people who can't do us direct harm?

00:19:08What are the stakes?

00:19:11Why are we afraid of people who can't do us direct harm?

00:19:14I don't know, man.

00:19:15I get so puzzled by this question.

00:19:17Why?

00:19:18Okay.

00:19:19Would you like the answer?

00:19:20I'm sure you would.

00:19:21I can give you the answer if you'd like.

00:19:22I'd like the answer, yeah.

00:19:23Sure.

00:19:23So, the answer is, and I'll talk about my own experience, not because I want to make

00:19:28it about me, but sometimes it's easier to just hear things that are more personal.

00:19:32So, I was not afraid of being deplatformed.

00:19:36I was not afraid of that.

00:19:37I was afraid of people betraying me over being deplatformed.

00:19:43In other words, I wasn't afraid that bad people were out there.

00:19:47I was afraid that good people would betray me.

00:19:50In other words, my guess would be that you are not so much upset with your girlfriend's

00:19:56sister as you are the possibility that people will side with her instead of you, and the

00:20:03true nature of your society will be revealed, that your society, as is the case with most

00:20:10societies, that your society will side with bad people over good people.

00:20:16And it's very, I mean, sad and disappointing when that happens.

00:20:21Yeah, I think you're correct, man.

00:20:25Because all the situations where I was most afraid was when I was challenging something

00:20:31that is a tradition or a collective belief.

00:20:34And it feels like a giant tall man just looking down upon me and like, I'm going to smash the

00:20:41fuck out of you, because it's a lot of people believing in the same thing.

00:20:47Right.

00:20:48Yeah.

00:20:48So in most of the people I've talked to where they have confronted an abusive or negative

00:20:53family member, the problem is not that there's been an abusive or bad family member.

00:20:59The problem is that everybody sides with who?

00:21:03Everybody in the family tends to side with who?

00:21:06With the abuser.

00:21:07Yeah.

00:21:08Yeah, that's right.

00:21:09That's right.

00:21:10It is not the attacks of enemies that hurt us.

00:21:14It is the betrayal of friends.

00:21:17So when I was deplatformed, how many people stood up for me and said, we're not going to

00:21:23let them deplatform you.

00:21:24I'm going to fight you on my show.

00:21:25I'm going to, you know, do the right thing.

00:21:27You helped me with my career.

00:21:28I'm going to help you now that you're under attack.

00:21:30How many people did that?

00:21:32Let me guess.

00:21:33Not a lot.

00:21:35Almost zero.

00:21:37Almost zero.

00:21:37And that's why I was attacked.

00:21:39I was attacked because the bad guys knew that my friends and colleagues weren't really my

00:21:45friends and colleagues.

00:21:46They knew that they could attack me because they understood my friends and colleagues a

00:21:51lot better than I did.

00:21:52I thought I would have some allies.

00:21:54I was wrong.

00:21:56And so the bad guys had a better understanding of the world than I did.

00:22:03And for that, I give them credit, right?

00:22:05They understood that people were going to not stand by me and so on, right?

00:22:10So I would assume with confrontation, it's not the confrontation.

00:22:13I mean, maybe it's the fear that the people you're confronting will do crazy stuff.

00:22:16And that's, you know, that's a real possibility.

00:22:19But I think what we're most afraid of when it comes to that kind of confrontation is we're

00:22:24afraid of what it reveals about our society.

00:22:27We're not afraid of confronting bad people.

00:22:29We're afraid of watching everyone's side with the bad people against us.

00:22:33But that is definitely part of what scares me.

00:22:37I don't think it's everything.

00:22:39Well, when did I say it was everything?

00:22:41It's challenging.

00:22:43I mean, our feelings have complicated origins.

00:22:46I think it's a big part of it.

00:22:47I don't know what everything means.

00:22:48There's no one single answer for every emotion, right?

00:22:52Sorry, are you still with me?

00:22:53Yeah, I'm just thinking because.

00:22:56So, sure, we know that what's scary is seeing how much people would

00:23:02side with people.

00:23:05But, like, what do we do about this?

00:23:08Like, why do I feel so anxious or even shameful when I try to confront people rationally?

00:23:17Okay.

00:23:18So, tell me a little bit about the circumstance where that's happened.

00:23:22I can actually tell you from this week.

00:23:25It was really interesting because I set up the appointment with you Thursday.

00:23:33And Friday, I had someone talking about ADHD in the chat and social media.

00:23:42And I was like, oh, I don't think that exists.

00:23:45I don't think ADHD exists at all.

00:23:49And they were like, super, oh, it exists.

00:23:52And a lot of text, a lot of arguments.

00:23:54And I was like, you know what?

00:23:55I think I'm going to try and argue with them.

00:23:59Give some evidence.

00:24:00And I started giving evidence and stuff.

00:24:03And I, like, what do you call it?

00:24:08When the situation begins to start and develop.

00:24:12Escalate.

00:24:13And then I start to feel, yeah, escalate.

00:24:15And I start to feel, like, my hair's going up.

00:24:19And my chest feeling bad, like, tight.

00:24:25And it starts to feel like I'm doing something terrible.

00:24:29Like, I'm a horrible person.

00:24:31But I'm just disagreeing with a guy.

00:24:35Right.

00:24:35It really isn't a rational thing.

00:24:38So, you mean your fear is not rational?

00:24:41It doesn't feel like a rational feeling.

00:24:44Yeah.

00:24:45I remember that you said before.

00:24:47They are rational things.

00:24:49But I really don't see how it's rational to be afraid of a stranger on the Internet.

00:24:55Or to confront a stranger on the Internet.

00:24:57Well, first of all, our feelings didn't evolve with the Internet, right?

00:25:01Yeah.

00:25:02So, our emotions are ancient.

00:25:05Of course.

00:25:06And they don't know much about the fact that the people we're arguing with are half a mile away.

00:25:12Or half a world away.

00:25:13Right?

00:25:13They don't know anything about that.

00:25:15Right?

00:25:15So, our feelings evolved with conflict being in front of us.

00:25:19Like, right in front of us.

00:25:20Does that make sense?

00:25:22Yeah.

00:25:23Yeah.

00:25:23So, when you're in conflict, your feelings assume that it's happening right in front of you.

00:25:30That the person is there.

00:25:31Right?

00:25:32Yeah.

00:25:33Okay.

00:25:34So, you had an argument with someone about ADHD and you said, I don't think it's a real thing.

00:25:40And they said, no, it's a real thing and you need all these drugs.

00:25:43Is that right?

00:25:44They didn't say the person needed drugs.

00:25:48But yeah, it was basically a discussion about whether ADHD and I started making the conversation about mental illnesses in

00:25:58general.

00:25:58Like saying, oh, I think people...

00:26:02I mean, you can delve into the conversation.

00:26:04It's not a problem.

00:26:05It's just...

00:26:07The point is, I was afraid of disagreeing.

00:26:11Do you want to know the details?

00:26:13Well, do you know, was this person on ADHD drugs?

00:26:18I don't.

00:26:19But I was thinking later that day that maybe they had like some kind of investment.

00:26:25So, maybe they knew someone who was on drugs.

00:26:27Maybe they were on drugs and that's why they were so irritated by my arguments.

00:26:34Right.

00:26:35So, if somebody...

00:26:36Let's say that this person was a parent.

00:26:39And let's say...

00:26:40Let's just take a real convenient scenario, right?

00:26:43So, let's say that this person was a parent and was an abusive parent.

00:26:49And as a result, they had a child who had concentration issues because a lot of ADHD, in my view,

00:26:55comes from child abuse because it's pretty hard to concentrate when you are being abused or you're in a situation

00:27:02where you're frightened on a regular basis.

00:27:05It's kind of tough to concentrate.

00:27:07So, let's just say that it's possible that ADHD has something to do with child abuse.

00:27:14Okay. Now, if someone has put their children on ADHD meds rather than deal with child abuse either in the

00:27:24school or in the church or at home or something like that, then have they done the wrong thing?

00:27:30Can you say that again?

00:27:31Well, so, let's say that ADHD might have something to do with child abuse.

00:27:35And let's say that someone has put their child on ADHD medication or whatever.

00:27:41It's not really medication.

00:27:42It's just speed, right?

00:27:43But let's say someone has put their kid on drugs rather than deal with the child abuse in the environment,

00:27:50whether it's at school or at church or at home or something like that.

00:27:54If someone has put their child on drugs rather than deal with child abuse, would they feel bad about that?

00:28:02I mean, if they're psychopaths, they wouldn't.

00:28:05Well, I don't know about psychopaths, but they would feel bad about that.

00:28:07Like, if you get mad at someone for swearing and then it turns out they have Tourette's and they can't

00:28:15control it and it's just like an epileptic tick or something like that, then hopefully you would feel bad about

00:28:22condemning them for something that was outside of their control.

00:28:25Does that make sense?

00:28:26Yes, it does.

00:28:28So, so if ADHD has something, might have something, not all of it, right, but some of it maybe has

00:28:34something to do with child abuse, then if you put people, if you put a child on drugs, when the

00:28:40child is in fact being abused, then you are not doing the right thing, I would argue.

00:28:45Yeah, I also agree.

00:28:47You don't put your kid on drugs just because they're having trouble with something.

00:28:53Yeah, and of course, we know that it's not biological because children who have ADHD can concentrate perfectly well on

00:29:00video games or movies or other things that they find enjoyable or interesting.

00:29:04So it also has something to do with being bored, right?

00:29:07And school is very boring, particularly for boys.

00:29:10And so I think it has something to do with that.

00:29:12And there's a bunch of other things.

00:29:13I'm certainly not any kind of big expert, but, you know, there's lots of things to look at, I would

00:29:17argue, before you would look at putting kids on drugs.

00:29:21You would look at their situation, their environment, if there's any abuse, if they're bored, maybe they're super intelligent and

00:29:27school is just really boring for them.

00:29:29I mean, there's a lot of things, I think, that should be looked at before that you put them on

00:29:36drugs.

00:29:36Now, let's say that this person you were debating with had done the wrong thing and had put his child

00:29:44on drugs where the child may in fact just be bored or abused or something like that, right?

00:29:50Now, if someone's a child abuser, they would much rather that the children get drugged than the abuse be revealed,

00:29:57right?

00:29:57Does that make sense?

00:29:59Yes, it makes a lot of sense.

00:30:01So, again, I don't know anything about this particular conversation.

00:30:04I'm just looking at why you might feel nervous.

00:30:06We feel nervous when we are in the presence of potential evil.

00:30:12And feeling nervous is a good decision when you're in the presence of potential evil, because evil can be very

00:30:21dangerous.

00:30:22And the evil is twofold.

00:30:23The first is that you may be in the presence of a genuine evildoer.

00:30:27And the second is, if you are in the presence of a genuine evildoer, then it's unfortunate to realize that

00:30:33usually your friends will avoid the fight and side either with, they'll either move away or they'll side with the

00:30:40evildoer.

00:30:40And nobody likes to see that.

00:30:43That's kind of gross to see, right?

00:30:44And it's scary and it's unpleasant, right?

00:30:48So, generally, if you feel nervous, the first thing that I would do is I would scan around and I

00:30:54would look around and say, okay, is it possible that there's an evildoer around?

00:30:58Somebody who's genuinely, you know, malevolent and destructive and narcissistic and abusive and maybe sadistic or, you know, any number

00:31:06of things, right?

00:31:08The first thing that I would do is look and see, is it possible that there's an evildoer around?

00:31:13And if it's possible that there is an evildoer around, then that would explain the nervousness, right?

00:31:18I mean, if you've ever been camping and you hear some snuffling and rustling around your tent in the middle

00:31:24of the night, would you feel nervous?

00:31:26Yeah, I feel nervous.

00:31:28Yeah, because, well, why?

00:31:30Well, it could potentially be a danger, a source of danger.

00:31:34Right, right.

00:31:36Or, to put it another way, those of our ancestors who didn't feel nervous in the past, did they have

00:31:44a higher or lower chance of surviving?

00:31:48Of course, they had a higher chance of surviving.

00:31:51No, if they didn't feel nervous.

00:31:53If they didn't, they were more likely to die.

00:31:56Yes, that's right.

00:31:57So, the people who've survived are the people who have been pretty accurate in their detection of danger, if that

00:32:07makes sense.

00:32:08Now, of course, if you feel nervous and paranoid and frightened all the time, then that wears out your system,

00:32:15right?

00:32:15Like, you end up with too much cortisol.

00:32:18It's bad for your immune system.

00:32:21It's bad for your system as a whole, if you are too nervous all the time, if that makes sense.

00:32:26So, our nervousness has usually tried to calibrate itself to when we're in danger, and we can do something about

00:32:33that danger, but not to be nervous for no reason, if that makes sense.

00:32:39So, with nervousness, I would say, is there an evildoer in the environment?

00:32:45Now, it's possible, if you're debating with someone about something like ADHD, which is something that is put upon children,

00:32:52I think it's possible that you are in the presence of someone who has done harm to children, whether their

00:33:00own or others, or they've advocated for something.

00:33:02Even if they've never put anyone that they know on ADHD meds, if they've been advocating for it, and it

00:33:08turns out that they may not be right about it, then they've done some evil, wouldn't you say?

00:33:16Yeah, that's a pretty accurate assessment.

00:33:20Now, if you are in the presence of an evildoer, you are in the presence of danger.

00:33:26Because evildoers, or people who can't admit fault, or whatever you want to call them, right, they can be very

00:33:31destructive, and very harmful, right?

00:33:34Yeah.

00:33:35So, in terms of confrontation, if you might be exposing an evildoer, or you might be making someone more conscious

00:33:43of the fact that they've done some significant harm, then you are in danger, and it would make sense to

00:33:49be nervous, wouldn't it?

00:33:51Yeah, but in this situation that I mentioned, are you talking about social fighting, like reputation, destruction, those kinds of

00:34:00things?

00:34:01Why would I be talking about any one thing in particular?

00:34:04I don't know.

00:34:05Evildoers have different ways of harming you.

00:34:09It could be reputational destruction, it could be direct attack, it could be poisoning you, it could be beating you

00:34:15up, it could be getting you fired, it could be any number of things could happen, right?

00:34:20So, I feel like we should, not just that we should, but like, maybe my imagination is a bit off,

00:34:29but a stranger on the internet can do harm to, but it's more limited, right?

00:34:35No, no, again, I said, our emotions did not evolve with the internet, so your emotions think that the conflict

00:34:41is happening right in front of you.

00:34:43That makes sense, okay, that's false.

00:34:46And, of course, people on the internet can also do you great harm.

00:34:50I mean, lots of people lied about me, which then ended up doing me some significant harm, and they lied

00:34:56about me on the internet, and so on, right?

00:34:58So, people on the internet can write lies about you, they can dox you, they can try and get you

00:35:02fired, they can, you know, they could report you to the authorities.

00:35:05Like, there's lots of things that people can do to do you harm, if you get into conflict with them.

00:35:13Yeah, I'm somewhat aware of how evildoers can be created in harming people.

00:35:21So, I felt like I needed to mention to you that I feel nervous just talking with you.

00:35:28I'm not implying that you're an evildoer, but like, I really don't understand what about our conversation would be scary

00:35:36to me, even in the evolutionary psychology framework.

00:35:42Sorry, you don't know why talking with me might be scary or negative?

00:35:46Scary to me, yeah.

00:35:49Well, how is my reputation as a whole?

00:35:53How is my reputation doing as a whole?

00:35:55I think people see you as a crazy guy.

00:36:00Oh, no, crazy would be a big step up.

00:36:02They view me as an immoral, as a bad guy, right?

00:36:04And so, it would make sense that you would have some nervousness talking to me, because you are having a

00:36:16conversation that is curious and sympathetic with a person who is socially attacked as a bad person, right?

00:36:26Mm-hmm.

00:36:27And so, yeah, it would make sense to me, because then also you're finding out whether people around you believe

00:36:36lies, nonsense, and propaganda, or whether they are honest and honorable people, right?

00:36:41Because if people around you say, look, if they ever found out, say, oh, you talked with that Steph guy.

00:36:45He's a bad guy, right?

00:36:47And if you were to say, no, that's just stuff, lies that people have told about him because he does

00:36:52a lot of work to fight evildoers and so on, right?

00:36:54Then you would find out whether people respected you, respected facts, truth, reason, and evidence, or whether they were just

00:37:00easily programmed NPCs who don't really have a soul, if that makes sense.

00:37:05And you would find out the moral nature of the people around you.

00:37:08Sorry, go ahead.

00:37:10That's a good reason to be afraid.

00:37:15I'm not sure if that's my reason why I'm afraid, because I actually do content for the internet.

00:37:22I'm not famous at all, but I do content in my native language.

00:37:27I say some things that are true and unpleasant.

00:37:32I'm not sure how far I can go before the overturn window, you know, before people start crashing out.

00:37:43And, you know, the fact that I confronted people in my life and that I confront people on the internet,

00:37:50you know, I can put a front, like a fighting attitude, but inside I feel really bad.

00:37:57Because, yeah, the fact that I did all of those things in my own personal life, you know, those gossiping

00:38:05adults being like, oh, you know, that guy in the family who doesn't want a formal education and he doesn't,

00:38:16you know, follow the collective beliefs, traditions, and stuff.

00:38:21All the gossiping, all the reputations mirroring.

00:38:25I think I've dealt with that enough in my life that it isn't really what scares me.

00:38:32But, yeah, your guess is not a bad guess, I think.

00:38:39Well, the truth is a very dangerous occupation.

00:38:42Can we agree on that?

00:38:43Yeah, because almost all evil is based on falsehoods and lies and propaganda.

00:38:49And so if you're good at dismantling lies and falsehoods and propaganda, then you are also good at interfering with

00:38:56the goals and intentions of evildoers.

00:38:59Is that a fair statement?

00:39:01Yes.

00:39:01Now, one of the things about evildoers that is kind of foundational is they don't fight fair.

00:39:07Right.

00:39:07So evildoers won't debate you.

00:39:10They won't disagree with you.

00:39:11They won't argue with you.

00:39:13Right.

00:39:14What will evildoers generally do if you are interfering with their goals and plans?

00:39:19They will lie.

00:39:21They will use violence or threats.

00:39:23They will cheat.

00:39:26Yeah, they don't fight fair.

00:39:27So it's not like you have a duel.

00:39:29It's like they just kind of try and poison your reputation or find other ways to get you banned or

00:39:36they lie about you.

00:39:37And so with evildoers, you generally don't have a fair fight on your hands, if that makes sense.

00:39:45Yeah.

00:39:48So, and the reason that they do all of that is that people as a whole let them get away

00:39:54with it.

00:39:55So the reason that lying works is that people are too lazy to find out the truth, especially now with

00:40:01the internet, right?

00:40:01So in the past, it was pretty hard to get a hold of the truth.

00:40:05Now with the internet, it's very easy to get a hold of the truth if you want it.

00:40:08And so the reason that evildoers do what they do is because it works, because people are lazy and won't

00:40:17find out the truth.

00:40:19And so the lies work.

00:40:21In other words, evildoers get their power from the laziness of people who, you know, evildoers say, oh, this person

00:40:29is bad.

00:40:29And people are like, yeah, he's bad, you know, that kind of stuff, right?

00:40:32And so evil works because, I mean, I'm not talking about direct violence, but evil works because people reward it

00:40:42by believing the lies.

00:40:44And that's just a basic fact of nature.

00:40:47Sorry, go ahead.

00:40:48I'm following your logic.

00:40:49I never thought about it this way, how laziness beats evil.

00:40:55So, yeah, because, I mean, lies were, and again, I say this from direct, obviously, direct personal experience that people

00:41:01lied about me for many years.

00:41:03And then those lies bore fruit in that I was deplatformed and so on.

00:41:07And so, yeah, people are lazy.

00:41:11They don't want to find out the truth.

00:41:12They believe gossips and rumors and all sorts of nonsense.

00:41:16And that gives great power to evildoers.

00:41:19I mean, if everyone that evildoers attacked was defended strongly and, you know, was the Streisand effect worked and, you

00:41:32know, people were given more truth.

00:41:34And every time you attacked a good man, you know, the virtues of his good statements and arguments were further

00:41:42scattered, then evil would stop doing it, right?

00:41:44Because it would be doing the opposite of what they want, if that makes sense.

00:41:48Yeah.

00:41:48So, evil flourishes from the laziness of the people and from the fact that people like hearing about, they like

00:42:01in the most, they like hearing bad things about good people.

00:42:04They have a hunger to hear bad things about good people because if they hear bad things about good people,

00:42:10they can then feel that they have an excuse as to why they're not good people.

00:42:16Say, oh, well, you can't be a good person because everyone who's good turns out to be a fraud or

00:42:20a fake or a phony or something like that.

00:42:23So, you can't, you know, there's no point, there's no such thing as good people, you know, all of that.

00:42:28They love hearing bad things about good people.

00:42:31They love it when somebody who is considered to be heroic turns out to have flaws or is bad or

00:42:36something like that.

00:42:36And people love to engage and spread gossip about good people so that they can have an excuse as to

00:42:44why they don't do any particular kind of good in their own life and why they sort of live in

00:42:50this squalor of low expectations and bad company and so on, right?

00:42:54So, evil is a shadow cast by the laziness of good people.

00:43:00Oh, sorry, that was a bad way to put it.

00:43:03Let me rephrase that.

00:43:05Evil is a shadow cast by the indifference and greed and laziness of the average person.

00:43:10Evil does what it does because it can rely upon lazy people to spread rumors and to believe everything that's

00:43:20bad about good people and so on.

00:43:22In other words, the people in Athens took Socrates to court because they knew that the people would believe all

00:43:31these negative things and put him to death.

00:43:33If they didn't believe that, they wouldn't have done it and they were right as they usually are.

00:43:37And so, when I was deplatformed, the bad guys knew that most people, like almost nobody would defend me and

00:43:43that everybody would pretend I didn't exist and they would be able to thwart my message and so on.

00:43:49And they were right and they understood the nature of people as a whole and they did what they did,

00:43:56not because of some innate power of their own, but because they accurately assessed the integrity and honor of the

00:44:03average person and knew that all of my colleagues would flee from me.

00:44:09Even those colleagues of mine who knew that I was completely right about my analyses of things, that I would

00:44:15be hung out to dry, that I would be tossed aside.

00:44:20And so, in terms of being nervous when you are in conflict with people who might be immoral, I don't

00:44:27think it's irrational at all.

00:44:29Evil people have a better understanding of human nature, certainly than I did.

00:44:32You know, I remember thinking about this even way back in 2006, no, 2008 when I was first attacked.

00:44:39By the media, I remember thinking about this and I also remember thinking that my mother had a better understanding

00:44:45of human nature than I ever did because she understood that she could do all the evil that she wanted

00:44:51in the household and nobody would do anything about it or say anything about it because people don't, in general,

00:44:59do anything about evildoers.

00:45:00They will collude with them if necessary.

00:45:02And we can get mad about this, you know, we could say, well, it has evolutionary reasons or something like

00:45:06that.

00:45:07But it is just a basic fact of life that you will be betrayed by most of the people who

00:45:11claim to care about you unless you have really good people in your life, which is not the easiest thing

00:45:16in the world to achieve, if that makes sense.

00:45:19Yeah, that is making a lot of sense.

00:45:22And I take it as like a warning that in the future, I should expect more and more to, you

00:45:29know, meet people who are too cowardice, to defend virtue, you know, to defend the truth.

00:45:35Well, they will not just not defend it, they will spread those rumors.

00:45:39They will collude with the evildoers to harm the virtuous because that way they get to avoid the responsibility of

00:45:47trying to be good.

00:45:49Well, yeah, so we can reach the conclusion that it's not irrational to be nervous, but is it a good

00:45:58thing to be as nervous as I guess?

00:46:00Because, I mean, maybe it is, from my perspective, it feels like an overreaction, it feels like it's exaggerated, like

00:46:10it's, that's how it looks to me.

00:46:13All right, and how would you judge that?

00:46:15I mean, I'm not saying you're wrong, maybe you're right, I don't know.

00:46:17But how would you judge whether your feelings are exaggerated?

00:46:22Because I see other people confronting, criticizing, fighting, and whatever, and they don't show the same level of nervousness that

00:46:33I do.

00:46:34Like, you just mentioned that you really like confrontations, you like disagreeing with people.

00:46:39It's something that's, that's like a sport, like something you do casually.

00:46:43Oh, sorry, I said I like debating and things like that.

00:46:46I like, I like having conflicts with people who are going to fight fair.

00:46:51I don't like having conflicts with people who are going to fight dirty, because it's not a fair or honest

00:46:56conflict.

00:46:57It'd be like, let's say I was a boxer, and I liked boxing, say, oh, I really like boxing, man,

00:47:02it's a lot of fun.

00:47:02But if somebody's going to drug me, instead of fight a boxing match, they're just going to drug me?

00:47:08Well, I don't want that.

00:47:09Like, I don't like that.

00:47:10I like boxing, I don't like being drugged.

00:47:12And so, I'm fine with conflict, if it's a fair fight.

00:47:17If, on the other hand, it's not a fair fight, but it's just lies, reputation, destruction, or other negative things,

00:47:24then I don't like that.

00:47:26That I don't particularly want to engage in, because it's not a fair fight, it's not a reasonable interaction, if

00:47:33that makes sense.

00:47:34Let me ask you something.

00:47:36So, would you say that this follows?

00:47:39Because, correct me if I'm wrong, but you have spoken about how you shouldn't try and fight fair with people

00:47:46who don't fight fair.

00:47:47So, like, I have to learn how to recognize evildoers and fight dirty with them back.

00:47:54Well, I mean, I'm not sure about fight dirty, but I don't feel, I prefer not to get into conflicts

00:48:01with evildoers as a whole.

00:48:04So, I mean, if I have to, then sure, I'll do whatever, right?

00:48:08But, in general, I prefer to try to prevent evil rather than cure it.

00:48:13Because curing evil is often something that requires violence, and I'm a philosopher, not a warrior, if that makes sense.

00:48:20But, I guess, I think you can do a lot of good with your tongue, you know, using your tongue

00:48:29as a sword, not anything physical.

00:48:32Because you talk about health balance.

00:48:33Well, come on, I've been a podcaster for 21 years.

00:48:36I mean, you don't have to tell me that I can do good with my tongue.

00:48:40I mean, that's exactly what I have been doing.

00:48:41So, yeah, people haven't been fighting you fairly.

00:48:49I figured that maybe you learned how to detect people who are evil, maybe you learned how to attack them

00:48:56back in some kind of chess game of ideas.

00:49:02Sorry, but the evildoers, they're not fighting a game of ideas.

00:49:06They're straight up going to the physical games.

00:49:09Well, they're just going to try and take you out of the games.

00:49:11They're just going to try and take you out of the game, right?

00:49:16They don't fight fair.

00:49:17It's not like if you and I have a running race, right?

00:49:22They won't fight fair.

00:49:23They'll just tie my shoelaces together, or they'll, you know, put itching powder in my shorts, or they'll drug me.

00:49:32Like, it's not going to be a running race.

00:49:34It's going to be something else completely, if that makes sense.

00:49:37Yeah, that makes sense.

00:49:39So, I feel a lot better about the situation overall, because, you know, trying to help people and trying to

00:49:45expose the ways they might have done something wrong.

00:49:49And the reason that I'm afraid is because they might turn against me and might collude with people who I

00:49:57thought were my friends.

00:50:00That's all clear, I think.

00:50:02Good, good. I'm glad.

00:50:04The second question I tell you is, do you think when someone is doing bad choices, you know, like someone

00:50:15is trying to destroy themselves, but accepts some kind of help?

00:50:20Or, you know, or, you know, just accepts self in general?

00:50:23Do you, um, no, I didn't probably take the question really well.

00:50:28I'm not sure if it's a good thing to intervene with people.

00:50:34I'm trying to get to this concept of, like, how much do I actually try to intervene in someone's life

00:50:42if they are doing bad choices?

00:50:45Because, you know, there's this dynamic that, of course, with the person I'm trying to help, which is that they've

00:50:53been taken care of a lot.

00:50:54And his brother is taking a lot of care of him.

00:50:58Uh, but it's to a point where it feels, uh, humiliated because it's like, oh, so you're saying I can't

00:51:04do it by myself.

00:51:04I can't take care of myself.

00:51:06No, the, wait, the brother is saying, the brother you're trying to help is feeling humiliated.

00:51:10Yeah.

00:51:11And he's like, I'm going to distance myself from you.

00:51:13I'm going to, uh, go live with a friend I've met on the internet for a year.

00:51:19The guy just met someone on the internet for a year and just says, okay, I'm going to travel and

00:51:25go live with them.

00:51:26Mm-hmm.

00:51:27Like, crazy stuff.

00:51:28Uh, you know, some, when someone's pride stops them from being helped, like, oh, you think I can't take care

00:51:36of myself?

00:51:38I'm trying to ask you something along the lines of, how do I know when it's a good choice to

00:51:43intervene or not?

00:51:45Because there's always this lingering fear of, like, well, if I don't do anything, they might harm themselves more than

00:51:52I want to prevent that.

00:51:54Right.

00:51:55Uh, so your question is, when should you help people and when should you not help people?

00:52:00Yeah.

00:52:01Yeah.

00:52:01Okay.

00:52:02Yeah.

00:52:02Okay.

00:52:03Well, have you ever heard of a triage in a hospital?

00:52:08Uh, triage?

00:52:10I don't think so, no.

00:52:11Right.

00:52:12So triage, it means, it's from tree, it means tri, it means three.

00:52:16It means dividing people into three categories.

00:52:18So let's say that there's some, uh, big mass casualty event, some bombing, some shooting or something like that.

00:52:25And there's like a hundred people who've been badly injured and they all come to the hospital at the same

00:52:31time.

00:52:31So what do the doctors try to do?

00:52:33They try to, uh, see the person that, that's the worst in their wounds, something like that.

00:52:42No, not, not the worst.

00:52:43So they try to divide people into three categories.

00:52:46The first category is people who are going to die no matter what, like no matter what help you give

00:52:53them, they're going to die.

00:52:54And then there's other people who will die if you don't treat them in the next 20 minutes.

00:53:01And then there are people who can last at least 20 minutes or more without getting help.

00:53:06You might bind their wounds, you might do something, but they, they can survive for 20 minutes.

00:53:12So they focus on the people, the people who were going to die right away, right?

00:53:16They've lost an arm, they're bleeding out.

00:53:18They'd like, you can't save them, right?

00:53:21So those people, uh, you just, you sent, you sent the priest over, but you can't do much to help

00:53:27them.

00:53:27And please understand, I'm not a doctor.

00:53:29So this is just my amateur understanding of how this works, right?

00:53:33So triage is, we are going to not help the people who can't be helped.

00:53:39We are not going to help the people right away who could be helped later.

00:53:44So let's say somebody has a broken arm, but they're not bleeding.

00:53:47Now, a broken arm will not kill someone probably in the next 20 minutes or half an hour, right?

00:53:54So let's say, yeah, they can wait, they can wait to get their bones set and it's not going to

00:53:59destroy them, if that makes sense.

00:54:02So that's the tree, right?

00:54:04Three.

00:54:04So people, let's say someone comes in and they're just almost dead, they're bleeding out, they have, and you can't

00:54:11save them.

00:54:12Then you, unfortunately, have to let that person die.

00:54:14We're not let that person, except that they're going to die.

00:54:17Now, on the other hand, if someone comes in and they have a broken arm, they can be dealt with

00:54:21later, right?

00:54:22But if someone comes in and they're bleeding out, but if you cauterize the wound, you stitch them up, I

00:54:29don't know, give them blood, what am I, I'm not a doctor.

00:54:31Like, whatever you do that's going to help them, then they have a pretty good chance of surviving, right?

00:54:36And that's a pretty good approach.

00:54:38I mean, that's been, that's certainly, it's going to save the most people, if that makes sense.

00:54:44So, with regards to, with regards to who, sorry, go ahead.

00:54:49You're telling me that I should be able to discriminate when someone is able of receiving help and not?

00:54:57Well, my point is that it doesn't, you're looking at who you're helping.

00:55:02What I'm saying is, look at who you're not helping.

00:55:06Because if you spend a lot of time, effort, and energy into helping someone who can't be helped, really, it's

00:55:13not so much that you are not helping that person, it's that there's other people that you might be able

00:55:19to help that you're not helping.

00:55:21Who could, in other words, you're spending your time trying to, you're spending the next 20 minutes trying to save

00:55:27someone who can't be saved, and as a result, five people die who could otherwise have been saved.

00:55:32Does that make sense?

00:55:33Yeah.

00:55:33So, it's the seen versus the unseen.

00:55:36The question isn't, who are you trying to help?

00:55:40The question is, who are you not helping by helping this person?

00:55:45Does that make sense?

00:55:46Yeah.

00:55:47So, you have a limited amount of time.

00:55:49You have a limited amount of time in this life and a limited amount of energy.

00:55:53And what that means is, how many, just roughly, how many hours would you say you've spent trying to help

00:55:59this guy who's the addict and whatever self-destructive?

00:56:04So, since his brother seeking me for help, it was a very recent thing.

00:56:10I haven't spent lots and lots of time with this.

00:56:15So, I'm still in the process of deciding if it's a solvable thing or not.

00:56:22Because, you know, I still have to talk with the older brother and stuff.

00:56:28Like, talk more, like, get more details into the situation.

00:56:31No, I understand.

00:56:31So, just roughly, how much time would you say you've spent on it?

00:56:35I think, um, it's not an easy answer because, of course, I spent, like, two hours speaking with the older

00:56:48brother.

00:56:48But I also occasionally think of the situation and I think, okay, what is the best choice?

00:56:56I think I should ask Stefan.

00:56:58I mean, the guy did a whole presentation on mental health and, you know, he's enlightening me on a lot

00:57:04of stuff regarding this.

00:57:05And so, we can even say that the time I spent with you here is time spent on this particular

00:57:12situation.

00:57:14It's not really easy to, you know, count how much time specifically.

00:57:20Okay, just roughly.

00:57:2110 hours, 50 hours, 5 hours, just roughly.

00:57:24Let's say 4 hours.

00:57:254 hours, okay.

00:57:26And you're trying to decide on spending how much time?

00:57:30I never decided on a fix-it amount of time.

00:57:34Well, if the person is very self-destructive and is an addict, it's going to be tough and it's going

00:57:38to be a long time, right?

00:57:40Mm-hmm.

00:57:40Is that fair to say?

00:57:42That is fair to say, yeah.

00:57:43Those are not easy.

00:57:43I wouldn't take on something like that.

00:57:45Of course, I'm not a mental health professional.

00:57:47I'm just some guy on the internet.

00:57:48But, um, I, you know, when people, if this guy would have emailed me, I probably wouldn't have anything.

00:57:54Because I'm, you know, that's, that's a, that's a giant issue set to try and solve.

00:57:59Yeah.

00:57:59And probably would require some pretty specialized expertise.

00:58:02Sorry, go ahead.

00:58:03So, yeah, as you said, I've helped people in the past with mental stuff.

00:58:09And it's, it's a dirty battlefield.

00:58:12That's how I described it to my girlfriend.

00:58:14It's a muddy, uh, work, type of work.

00:58:19It's a, it's a very dirty, like, you get your psychological hands dirty.

00:58:23Because, you know, it's, it's not for the faint-hearted.

00:58:27Because you, you hear a lot of bad stories.

00:58:30Mm-hmm.

00:58:31Right.

00:58:32So, the question is, if you take on this person as a client, that's another client you can't take on,

00:58:40right?

00:58:41Yes.

00:58:42Uh, or, or, not that it stops me from taking another, but it, it definitely will consume some of my

00:58:49time.

00:58:50Well, yeah, look, I mean, I'm not saying you can't take on any other clients, but if you take on

00:58:55this guy, let's say you spend a hundred or two hundred or three hundred hours trying to help this person,

00:59:00that's a hundred or two hundred or three hundred hours that you can't spend helping someone else, right?

00:59:07Yes.

00:59:08So, it's not so much who you are helping, as who you're not helping, that matters.

00:59:14Now, yeah, I'm learning that lesson right now with you.

00:59:18Like, that is a new thing to me.

00:59:20That is a new lesson to me.

00:59:22That is a new thing.

00:59:22I'm learning about this with you right now, in this context.

00:59:26Oh, good.

00:59:27Okay, good.

00:59:27Yeah, so, I could spend my time roaming around the mall and trying to find people who were interested in

00:59:35philosophy, right?

00:59:37And then all the time that I spent roaming around the mall trying to find people who were interested in

00:59:42philosophy, I'd find some people, maybe once in a while, but it would be, it would be rare, right?

00:59:49Right.

00:59:50So, I don't do that.

00:59:52Because all that time that I would spend roaming around the mall trying to find people interested in philosophy is

00:59:58people I would not be talking to who I know are interested in philosophy because they're calling into my show.

01:00:04Does that make sense?

01:00:05Yeah, it's not efficient.

01:00:08I'm sorry, it's what?

01:00:09It's not efficient to look for people who are interested in philosophy at the mall.

01:00:14Right, right.

01:00:15In fact, I may actually do damage to the reputation of philosophy because people would say, oh, man, there was

01:00:23this crazy bald guy at the mall who just wanted to talk about philosophy.

01:00:27Like, it was really weird, right?

01:00:29Mm-hmm.

01:00:30And so, I may end up harming the reputation of philosophy, if that makes sense.

01:00:37Yeah, that does make sense, yeah.

01:00:39So, yeah, I would say that look at who most wants to help.

01:00:46Who most wants to be helped, if that makes sense.

01:00:49And if there are people who really do want to be helped and are really keen to do the work

01:00:55and they're like, man, I'll do whatever it takes.

01:00:57I'll, you know, I'll do as much homework as you can imagine.

01:01:02I'll read whatever books you want.

01:01:05I'll write down my dreams.

01:01:07Like, whatever it is.

01:01:07The people who really, really are going to want to be helped.

01:01:11Those people, I think, are important to spend time with because they're going to do a lot of honorable work

01:01:18and they're going to really dig in.

01:01:20I mean, when I was in therapy, I just did, I did a lot of work.

01:01:27I kept a journal.

01:01:28I wrote down my dreams.

01:01:30I did, like, just about everything that I could imagine, right?

01:01:33Sorry, can I interrupt you a bit?

01:01:34Yeah.

01:01:36When you say you were in therapy, you were receiving therapy, right?

01:01:41Yes.

01:01:42Okay.

01:01:42Because I might believe that you actually gave therapy, like, you.

01:01:47Oh, no, I'm not a therapist.

01:01:48I can tell you about it.

01:01:48No, I'm not a therapist.

01:01:49I was receiving therapy.

01:01:50Okay.

01:01:50Yeah, I'm not a therapist.

01:01:51Okay.

01:01:52So, but I did as much work as I possibly could in that situation, if that makes sense.

01:02:00And so, I was very hardworking.

01:02:02I did three hours of therapy for two years and got a great deal of value out of it and

01:02:08so on, right?

01:02:09So, whereas my therapist could have spent all of that time, effort, and energy in somebody who didn't really want

01:02:15to change at all.

01:02:16And because if my therapist had taken on another client, she wouldn't have had the time for me.

01:02:24I mean, at least she wouldn't have had that time for me.

01:02:27And so, yeah, the important thing is not should I help someone?

01:02:31The important thing is should I help someone compared to what?

01:02:35And like, so, should you help someone who doesn't really want to be helped, who doesn't really believe in therapy,

01:02:40who doesn't think they have a problem?

01:02:42Well, I would say no, because you're not choosing whether to help that person in isolation.

01:02:48You're choosing to help that person relative to someone else who could really be helped, if that makes sense.

01:02:57Is this the best use that you could possibly do with the limited time you have in this world?

01:03:10Because everyone you help is everyone else you're not helping, right?

01:03:14And so, I think that's the big question that is important to answer, if that makes sense.

01:03:19That makes the situation really more clear and simple.

01:03:23You know, I never tried applying opportunity cost to my time.

01:03:28Right, right.

01:03:29And in the context of working with people.

01:03:33Right.

01:03:34But I think it's a very important thing to do.

01:03:37Sorry, go ahead.

01:03:37That makes me even more willing to dig into the situation, because, you know, people can avoid talking about things.

01:03:47And if they are too avoidance, then I can go on and say, oh, that's a waste of time.

01:03:52Then you don't want help, actually.

01:03:54Right, right.

01:03:55And it's sort of an insult to the people who do want help, if you spend a lot of time,

01:04:00effort, and energy on people who don't want help, or who aren't willing to get help.

01:04:05You know, like, it's sort of like if you were trying to help people lose weight, there are some people

01:04:09who will listen to your advice and will really try and lose weight.

01:04:13And there are other people who, they don't really want to lose weight.

01:04:15They're just there to waste money or time, or, you know, they just find it kind of funny to talk

01:04:20about or something like that.

01:04:21And all the time you spend on those people, of course, is time that you can't spend on the people

01:04:27who actually are going to lose weight.

01:04:29So, you end up with a more fat population, if that makes sense.

01:04:32Yeah.

01:04:33Like, just, I think you've gave me enough insight into the situation.

01:04:40Oh, good.

01:04:41Okay, great.

01:04:43If there's anything really that I would ask, I think I've asked enough of you.

01:04:49Okay, great.

01:04:50Well, I appreciate that.

01:04:51And I certainly do appreciate your interest in helping people.

01:04:55And, you know, congratulations on, it's going to be a satisfying life to do that, I think.

01:05:00But, yeah, you do have to be careful about the opportunity cost, for sure, I would argue.

01:05:05It is a satisfying life.

01:05:07I actually feel really peaceful with my choices.

01:05:10I feel like a happy person, you know.

01:05:12I feel loved.

01:05:14Yeah, I know that you've talked about love before.

01:05:17You've talked about how there's been a recent video on subscriber questions or something like this.

01:05:25And someone asked, do people have a hard time accepting UPD because they have a hard time accepting that they're

01:05:33not loved?

01:05:34And I think you said, yes, well said.

01:05:37That was good.

01:05:38That was a, yeah, I love getting listener questions, especially from donors, because they tend to be really great.

01:05:45So, yeah, I'm pretty satisfied.

01:05:49The only questions I would still have are regarding the show itself and, you know, becoming a donor, not really

01:05:57the subject I planned on bringing.

01:06:01Well, sure, if you want to ask me a question or two about that, I'd be happy to help.

01:06:06So, is it safe to assume that this is going to be on YouTube?

01:06:10That's not an issue.

01:06:11I just wanted to know because, I don't know, maybe you do some calls that don't go public?

01:06:16Or maybe, like, do you pick some calls?

01:06:19Yeah, certainly there's some calls that go just for donors only and so on.

01:06:23So, yeah, that does happen for sure.

01:06:25Okay, yeah.

01:06:28I will definitely become a donor.

01:06:30I just need to earn more money, man.

01:06:32I know that you've been to Brazil before.

01:06:35I learned about you from a video of you debating a guy in Brazil.

01:06:41Safatley.

01:06:42Professor Safatley.

01:06:43Yes, that was great.

01:06:45Vladimir Safatley.

01:06:46That's right.

01:06:48Yes.

01:06:51Then I still have to read your book about a universally preferable mediator.

01:06:56Yeah, that's about the situation.

01:07:00Yeah.

01:07:01Also, there's a book, Essential Philosophy, which you can get, essentialphilosophy.com.

01:07:08It's free.

01:07:08And the last third of that is a pretty, that's a pretty quick summary of UPB that's incorporated a bunch

01:07:16of criticisms.

01:07:17So, all of that hopefully makes sense.

01:07:22I definitely want to learn about peaceful parenting.

01:07:26That was one of the things that interested me more because, you know, I'm not, I don't pretend on having

01:07:32children yet, too young.

01:07:36But like having a rough childhood, man, that makes me want to learn how to not, you know, give a

01:07:43bad childhood.

01:07:43I think people really underestimate the importance of your work.

01:07:49I imagine that would be, I think that's true, that people do underestimate the importance of my work and the

01:07:54work that the listeners do, such as yourself, in really helping people to understand these things.

01:08:01So, I appreciate that.

01:08:03So, yeah, you might see me becoming a donor in some kind of near future or long future.

01:08:10We'll see.

01:08:12I don't really have much to say anymore.

01:08:14Do you have any final thoughts?

01:08:16No, I appreciate that.

01:08:17And I really do thank you for your interest in philosophy and, you know, the fact that you'll be bringing

01:08:24good rational principles to people who are struggling in their lives, I think is fantastic.

01:08:28And I hope you'll drop me a line and let me know how things are going.

01:08:31I mean, I'm not sure how I could contact you.

01:08:34That's one of the things I was a bit confused.

01:08:37Oh, sure.

01:08:38You can just email me.

01:08:39Yeah.

01:08:39Support.

01:08:40Support at freedomain.com.

01:08:42S-U-P-P-O-R-T.

01:08:44Yeah.

01:08:44Support at freedomain.com.

01:08:46I see.

01:08:47Okay.

01:08:48Yeah.

01:08:49I'll send you an email.

01:08:51All right.

01:08:51Well, thanks very much.

01:08:52I hope we get to talk again at some point.

01:08:55All the best.

01:08:56Take care.

01:08:56Bye-bye.

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