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00:00Welcome to the Audacity. Very excited to talk about it because it's been making waves, it's getting great reviews.
00:08I think the reaction has been strong. At the same time, we'll talk a little bit about how close to
00:14real life it is
00:15and how chilling maybe some of it is. But let me introduce to you our panelists.
00:20First off, all the way on the other end here, he is the showrunner, writer, executive producer of the show,
00:27Jonathan Glatzer.
00:32Next up, he plays Martin on the show, the one and only Simon Helberg.
00:40And he is Duncan Park on the show, Billy Magnuson.
00:47So, well, welcome, guys.
00:49Thanks for having us, y'all.
00:50Yeah, no, I guess, you know, Jonathan, I mentioned the reviews have been strong, the reaction's been great.
00:55What are you hearing so far from both the critics in Silicon Valley and just people in general?
01:00People hate tech.
01:02Yeah.
01:03Or the people in tech.
01:04It's definitely a bit of a third rail.
01:07You know, I mean, tech has never been so much integrated into politics as it is today.
01:12And so I think everybody's got a very strong opinion about the individuals, particularly at the top of the pyramid.
01:21But I think that we sort of save ourselves from being in that same, you know, target list because we
01:30are, all of our characters want to get to that place.
01:33They're wannabe titans.
01:34They're also rants like the part that Billy Magnuson plays so brilliantly.
01:40And Simon, Simon is in many ways, his part, Martin is somebody who has the genius.
01:46He could be at that top of that pyramid if he wanted to be, but is choosing not to be,
01:51I think, in a lot of ways.
01:53But that, especially for Duncan Park, that desperation enables us, I think, to relate to him because he has a
02:01want.
02:01He has a need.
02:02The people at the top of that pyramid that we read about every day do not have very many wants
02:07or needs that are not, you know, at least, I'm going to take that back, actually, because they have enormous
02:13wants and needs.
02:14And we're all paying the price for it.
02:15Right.
02:17Yeah.
02:17And these are, you know, sort of two different versions of the tech bros, tech execs that we're seeing so
02:23much in the news these days.
02:25And, you know, maybe we can start by talking about the creations that both of these characters have made that
02:30also have different kinds of ramifications.
02:32They're both very scary creations that they're both behind.
02:36Could be used for good.
02:37Probably won't be.
02:38But what do you guys make of these creations?
02:41I mean, Billy, what Duncan has is basically the ability to profile everyone and anyone in the world basically by
02:49hacking their personal computing devices, which could be useful.
02:56Yeah, no.
02:56Well, it could be.
02:57It could be advantageous.
02:58But honestly, guys, this is a PSA for don't accept cookies.
03:02Just don't take them.
03:03Unless they're cookie cookies, like delicious cookies.
03:06So don't say yes to all cookies on every website.
03:08Yeah, well, it's scary that, like, it's very clear now that they're even saying they're taking your data to eventually
03:14sell it back to you.
03:16And that is a scary way to be.
03:17I don't know.
03:18I don't want my life to be exposed that way or to be up for grabs so easily.
03:23Have you still been downloading apps or going to websites after playing this character?
03:29Yeah, no.
03:30Again, I think technology is this beautiful gift.
03:32Like, it does.
03:33It does communicate the world together.
03:35It can give you profound ideas.
03:37You can educate yourself on so many topics.
03:40But at the same time, it could distract you and pull you away from real life.
03:44And I think that balance is something that I think the world's fighting with right now.
03:51I know everyone's fighting for your attention on these apps rather than actually connecting us together.
03:56It's distracting us.
03:57Yeah.
03:58That's scary to me.
03:59No, the world became WALL-E much faster than we had expected.
04:03WALL-E?
04:03Yeah.
04:04Oh, WALL-E.
04:05Yes.
04:05Yeah.
04:06Like, WALL-E.
04:09Not WALL-E and the beef, but actually WALL-E where everyone is just sitting there looking at their devices
04:15all day long and not really doing anything.
04:17I have definitely pulled down my screen time a lot after doing this project.
04:22You know, especially you just see the people that – what I base Duncan Park on is, like, there's these
04:28people in the headlines.
04:29We see them every day.
04:30There's things that they do are moronic and dumb or brilliant, and it affects 7.4 billion people, these choices.
04:38And I love that Jonathan Glatzer made a show about these people.
04:41I want to know what these people are and what their character is like and how it affects me daily.
04:47Right, right.
04:47And through the audacity, it's sort of just as we expected.
04:51Yes.
04:52They have their own demons and issues and, you know, like anyone else.
04:56Simon, for you, I mean, Martin, he's also created something that could be used for good, this emotive, you know,
05:03AI, this ability to really – you know, we see moments where it's actually a good creation, but you could
05:10also see where it could go really bad fast.
05:13Yeah.
05:14He's – I think he's on a quest to do something noble.
05:19I think he's in that garage creating his masterpiece, hoping that this AI companion will bring some kind of guidance,
05:31some kind of comfort to alienated teens the way he was.
05:36Of course, he's got an alienated teen in his house who's his daughter who he completely ignores.
05:44Yeah, but I think maybe in his mind it's like, well, if he can finish this AI entity that he's
05:51working on, maybe he'll solve loneliness for all kids from here on out.
05:57I think that's kind of the mindset of some of these like titans or titan adjacents or whomever they are,
06:03that it's worth sacrificing the here and now for some greater good.
06:10But I think, you know, that's also kind of nonsense.
06:12That's my favorite point of what Jonathan Glatzer actually created with this show.
06:16Like these people are trying to fix something that they were broken before.
06:20And like the genesis of them coming to this little bubble of Silicon Valley was that it was good.
06:25They had intentions.
06:26And then what happened?
06:28They started making money.
06:29And money, that toxicity, that greed, that corruption is what this show is about.
06:34It's like –
06:35And money off of – they realized that Discord actually made more money than Harmony.
06:40And so they kept pushing in that direction, pushing us into more coarse conversations with each other.
06:48And so the great goals of communicating with each other became let's fight each other and make money off of
06:55that.
06:56And it was – I would imagine for them a very simple equation of like, well, you know, kumbaya only
07:03makes you so much fucking money.
07:04But if we just make everybody hate each other, we can control the whole thing.
07:11And that's also been the ethos in the media industry for a while now too.
07:16So Jonathan, talk about the origins of Audacity.
07:19And kind of what were you thinking about when you first started putting a pen to paper?
07:24Well, I didn't feel like I was necessarily somebody who wanted to or was the right person to chronicle tech.
07:34And I didn't want a show that was stuck in an office or all about business dealings.
07:40So it really was, can I do this and broaden out the scope?
07:45So I thought that Duncan should be in therapy and that since Duncan deals in private data, that I maybe
07:54could incorporate my own personal story,
07:56which was growing up with a therapist and a psychiatrist where I could hear the therapy sessions,
08:02which if anyone is in therapy and has a – there's a kid in the house, I'd be very wary
08:08of that.
08:10But seriously, if there's nothing good on TV, I just sat there and ate my honeycombs and just listened.
08:17Yeah, yeah.
08:18And look, it ended up feeding a great TV show.
08:21So it worked out?
08:23It worked out.
08:23But it was very much about the veneer of privacy and how we go online, we go to therapists, whatever
08:33it may be,
08:34we presume that there is privacy and it is being eroded, particularly by the likes of somebody like Duncan Park
08:42and the third parties that market and sell our data.
08:50But it was – it didn't stop there.
08:53And we had the psychiatrist's son as a major character, her husband, the psychiatrist.
08:59The school that the kid goes to is a major arena that we play in.
09:02And I wanted to basically create a bubble in a way what I was most inspired by, maybe not from
09:09a qualitative perspective,
09:10but structurally the soap opera where you have an ensemble that all takes place in sort of like –
09:19what was the name of the neighborhood that your soap was in?
09:24Oakwood?
09:25Oakdale.
09:26Oakdale.
09:27As the world turns.
09:28As the world turns.
09:29We all have – this is great –
09:30Wow, I can't believe I remembered that.
09:33That was very good.
09:34But, you know, you have a situation where – a singular bubble where characters can collide with each other.
09:40And it was an exciting way to remind everybody that these are human beings that we're portraying here.
09:50They don't stand for tech.
09:52They don't – you know, the tech is the backdrop, but in the foreground are these characters.
09:57And very fortunate to have had the greatest cast I've ever had the privilege of working with.
10:05They informed who these people were to me as we went forward.
10:10I wrote to them, and it humanized them in many, many layers beyond what I could have done.
10:16Yeah, I was going to say, I mean, besides the two excellent actors on the stage here, I mean, Sarah
10:21Goldberg and Zach Galifianakis.
10:24I mean, the list goes on.
10:25Lucy Punch.
10:26Lucy Punch.
10:26Ross, Paul Edelstein, Rob Corddry.
10:31Yeah, and all playing such different and unique characters, all with their own sort of idiosyncrasies, too, and all sort
10:38of interacting at this level.
10:41For you guys, you know, how much research went into going to Silicon Valley, getting to know maybe some folks
10:50in tech?
10:51You mentioned that there's, like, different figures that you sort of modeled your characters off of.
10:56But what was the research process like?
11:00It's really about our lives.
11:01And these characters on the Internet, they are – did I get to meet these guys?
11:06No, but, like, we have all their information.
11:09We've seen what they're like.
11:10And I just slowly took the things I loved about them and fucking hated about them and then put that
11:15into Duncan Park.
11:16Yeah.
11:17And just understanding the language of, like, what the tech industry is.
11:21That's the headache in itself, understanding coding.
11:24And, like, I applaud people that can understand that and speak that language.
11:28Yeah, yeah.
11:29No, I mean, these are – some of them are geniuses.
11:32Yeah.
11:32They just don't have the proper social skills.
11:35Which is ironic.
11:36It's, like, these people are building crafts that are programs that are supposed to connect people and communicate and help
11:44with interaction.
11:45And these people don't know how to interact personally.
11:48That's – the irony of that.
11:50That's why they created it.
11:51What?
11:51That's why they created it.
11:53Yeah, I know.
11:53I don't know how to communicate, but maybe through this device, we can all communicate.
11:58Well, so how do you guys approach your characters?
12:01And how, you know, ultimately do you feel about Duncan?
12:05He can be charismatic, but then also he's so, you know, vindictive at times.
12:10And he's a hard character to really sort of love, but at the same time, you're kind of – you
12:18know, you're feeling for him too.
12:22Yeah, I think that the children in the story are a great manifestation of, like, what's happening inside of a
12:28lot of our characters.
12:29But specifically Duncan is that, like, he came to the valley with pure intentions and then greed, corruption, money seeped
12:37in.
12:37And then the culture of this little bubble kept promoting, like – you say this all the time – like,
12:43be a bull in a china shop.
12:44But it's bad to be a bull in a china shop.
12:47But the culture around him just seeped into him so much.
12:51So I always start with, like, this character is not a villain.
12:55He's actually trying to do the best he can.
12:57But the culture around him is telling him, oh, I got to do it this way.
13:00I got to be this.
13:01I got to be more aggressive.
13:02I got to be on top.
13:03I have to be the first.
13:04I don't have to be right.
13:05I just have to be first.
13:06And then I think we can literally take the same thing to Hollywood, to politics, to financing.
13:13Whatever these micro cultures are, they make their own rules.
13:17And a lot of times, it's not the nicest rules.
13:20And these people are doing the best they can and think they're doing the right thing.
13:23But if you're on the outside, you're going like, wow, these people are fucked up.
13:28And so making that character, I memorized the lines and just did what Jonathan wrote.
13:34But, I mean, to that point, it is a tough character to love because he is doing some nasty stuff.
13:40But in the hands of Billy, it becomes so much more approachable, and Duncan Park does.
13:48And it's his ability to play a part and exude the certainty and the confidence and the cockiness that a
13:57lot of these guys have.
13:58But underneath everything, every beat of it is this insecurity and this desperation, this little boy that I think only
14:07Billy can bring to it.
14:08It's a masterful performance, honestly.
14:11Yeah.
14:11I mean, little boy is probably a good way to describe both of these characters.
14:16Yeah, totally.
14:16Because Simon, obviously.
14:17Little man.
14:18Little man.
14:18I always describe myself as a little boy.
14:21But what do you make of Martin, and how did you sort of rehearse or capture him?
14:27I mean, little boy is a good way into all of these characters because in some ways it's tragic.
14:34It's these boys that have been told they're exceptional or maybe peaked early.
14:41And it's the tragedy of what happens when they grow up.
14:46And maybe they're not quite as exceptional as they hoped or as they were told.
14:52Martin, I think, is just – he has a limited amount of tools in his tool belt.
14:58I met so many – no offense to writers, but I met a lot of specifically like really brilliant writers
15:05who understand intellectually emotion and character.
15:10And I've worked with a lot of really smart people.
15:12I've met a lot of scientists, like really brilliant people.
15:16And it's interesting to see how kind of across the board sometimes there's a bit of a capacity to understand,
15:24but maybe not quite to –
15:27Yeah, emotion is not the most efficient thing.
15:31So Martin's got a few tools, and he's got no ability to read social cues and probably no ability to
15:39deal in subtext.
15:41So, you know, if there's an emotion that comes up, it's like he gets like dysregulated, and then it's on.
15:48The emotion's like on.
15:50You can't – and then – but mostly it's just living in this quiet, introspective, intellectual, you know, doing a
16:00lot of surveying the land, I guess.
16:04Yeah, no, absolutely.
16:05How would you kind of compare it to that other show that you were on for a long time?
16:11Yeah, well, that's where I met a lot of these very smart people who maybe had certain emotional chips that
16:20were not quite firing.
16:23So you can see that, and I think that's pretty common in Silicon Valley.
16:27I think it's like you've got the two Steves.
16:30You have the Wozniak and the Jobs, like in every sort of facet of the valley.
16:35And compared to something like Big Bang, I mean, again, those guys were all – they were all missing, you
16:41know, missing a few beans from their burritos.
16:44But they were brilliant.
16:46They just – they didn't quite know how to – you know, you can't really tabulate those kinds of, like,
16:55social cues.
16:56Or I remember Bill Prady saying, like, well, these guys are geniuses, but they can't figure out how much money
17:03they should leave for a tip because it's based on service.
17:08And that's not something you can really calculate.
17:10That was kind of the premise, I think, of that – of Big Bang.
17:14And that runs across, you know, this world too.
17:18No, absolutely.
17:19So I asked Billy if he had changed his diet of tech at all.
17:24How about you?
17:25Have you – after being on the show for a while –
17:27Me?
17:28Yeah, yeah.
17:30Oh, God.
17:31I – you know, I just – when I'm scrolling through, like, the Apple terms and services, I scroll a
17:37little slower as to simulate somebody who has been reading it.
17:42Yeah, yeah, you look at the words, you don't read them, but at least you see the words.
17:46No, no, no.
17:46No one has that kind of time.
17:47Right.
17:47So in case someone is watching, which they are watching, they think I'm reading it.
17:53Yeah.
17:53But I'm not.
17:54Oh, the things that we've signed away, our lives, that we don't know about.
17:59Agree, agree, agree.
18:00Okay, that's – yeah, that's a wheel on a bus.
18:02That's a – that's maybe a half a wheel on a bus.
18:04I'm not a robot.
18:05But can I just update this thing, please?
18:08Yeah, it's – yeah, it's chilling what we agree to do.
18:11Jonathan, because, you know, the show, it takes time to write and then produce, et cetera, you know, the world
18:17of tech is moving so fast.
18:19The world of AI is moving so fast.
18:21It's tough to keep up.
18:22So how do you manage that?
18:24How do you balance that in writing the show?
18:27Well, you've got to keep the tech at bay.
18:28And you've got to – as I was saying, like, you really have to keep the characters in the foreground,
18:32and that's your priority.
18:33That's your load start.
18:34These guys make that very easy.
18:36And then it is really about not allowing – you know, AI is obviously such a huge thing.
18:45When I – now, when I started writing this, it was maybe 18 months ago, it was much more theoretical.
18:52I mean, I know that seems crazy, but look, go back to your feeds from 18 months ago.
18:57It really – we were wondering what it might be like, and, of course, we were a little bit afraid
19:03of it, but it wasn't in our lives yet.
19:05And suddenly it's here, and it is something that we have no idea what it's going to do.
19:11The people who invented it don't know what it's going to do.
19:14And it's maybe going to take our jobs and, you know, a lot of conversations about writers being replaced by
19:21AI.
19:21And I guess the same answer to that is, you know, we're human beings, damn it.
19:28And I don't want the human experience to be chronicled by a fucking machine.
19:37It seems self-evident, but it's not to those who are inventing it.
19:45And I would just say one other thing.
19:47I have nothing against the tech in and of itself.
19:50It is how it is being pushed upon us, and it is the human beings who are deciding how to
19:57do that.
19:57It's the human beings.
19:58Lawyers write those user agreements.
20:00And it is their choice to insinuate something into our devices, into our quotidian lives that they don't fully understand
20:11and they don't know whether it might be a 10% to 15% chance that it actually annihilates us.
20:17It's their choice to do that.
20:19Nobody's asking for it.
20:21And I would like to thank all of you for sharing your data to be here today.
20:25I promise you Variety will only use it for good.
20:29You have my guarantee, and you have the guarantee of the Audacity, which, by the way, is on Sunday nights
20:36at 9 o'clock on AMC.
20:38And, of course, you get it early on AMC Plus, so do do that as well.
20:43And no diaper commercials.
20:45Exactly.
20:46Just straight content.
20:47Thanks so much, guys.
20:48Thank you so much.
20:49Thank you, guys.
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