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00:00:00So one spring training, I played a lot of golf with Tiger, we were in Orlando, and Tiger called
00:00:05me on a Friday and said, what are you doing Sunday morning? Wheels up at 8am and we're going to
00:00:09go to
00:00:09Augusta. And this is like three weeks before the Masters and I'm just sitting here going,
00:00:13are you kidding me? John, we've made 200 shows together, which is great. I thank you for being
00:00:19my partner through all this. It is a little bit more of a tough week this week. We lost a
00:00:24Hall
00:00:24of Famer, the manager Bobby Cox and John Smoltz who played for him for 19 years with the Braves
00:00:30will be joining us this week. Yes. Thank you, Joel, for helping us get through this to 200. Wow. Let's
00:00:38do another 200. That'd be fantastic. Yeah. Very tough week, particularly for the Braves. Obviously
00:00:44lost their owner, Ted Turner as well. John Sterling was an announcer there for a while before it became
00:00:48a Yankee legend. And obviously that hit us all hard in New York, but the Braves players just
00:00:54absolutely love Bobby Cox. So I'm interested to talk to John Smoltz about Bobby Cox and see what
00:01:01he has to say about Bobby, but also about baseball. I mean, I can't think other than you, I can't
00:01:07think
00:01:07of anybody more passionate about the game than John Smoltz. Yeah. Well, he's a legend. He'll be
00:01:13talking about a legend in Bobby Cox. John, we'll take from our legendary listeners and viewers to show
00:01:20some questions in the top of the show on the Yankees and Mets. We'll play hit and error in the
00:01:25end. If you stick with us on the show with Joel Sherman and John Hammond.
00:01:33John, they didn't think we'd make it this far. Episode 200. Wow. Congratulations.
00:01:38I can't believe it. To us. To us. Let's hope for 200 more. We thought a way to open the
00:01:46show because
00:01:47of 200 and see if we make a little special. It's only special because people take the time to listen
00:01:51to us or watch us. If that's the case, we take a couple of questions from out there. So John,
00:01:57why don't, why don't I throw this out there to begin with? This is from Brad 51, 518 L. If
00:02:05I'm reading
00:02:05it right. I think it's fair to already say the Yankees' biggest need at the deadline is bullpen
00:02:10arms. But is there a chance they consider adding another bat, whether it's an infielder, utility
00:02:14player, or right-hand hitting catcher? You want to take that one, John? I'll follow you.
00:02:19Yeah. I mean, I agree that bullpen arm is what they need. I advocated Diaz in the winter. Obviously,
00:02:25he's hurt now. So maybe I shouldn't be the GM. But, you know, if they got someone who could close,
00:02:31I think Bednar would be a great setup guy. They do seem short in the pen. I think that's
00:02:35the number one consideration. I get the lineup is a little top heavy. That isn't their number
00:02:40one thought. I certainly wouldn't rule out adding a hitter. Certainly, they got three left-handed
00:02:46hitting catchers now, counting Rice as a catcher. So I get it. I get what you're saying. I think
00:02:52they like having a scar on the team, but they use Wells most of the time. I don't see that
00:02:57as a
00:02:58priority. I wouldn't rule out that they would get an extra bat, preferably right-handed. But
00:03:05they have a good enough offense to win, right? And let's see what Spencer Jones can do. But once
00:03:10Stanton comes back, I think things will settle down in terms of their offense and improve.
00:03:16So I'm fine if they just go bullpen and that's it. And it's funny that we haven't even mentioned
00:03:22starting pitching. And why should we, right? You've got Rodon back now and Cole's coming back.
00:03:27And they seem to be fine in starting pitching, more than fine.
00:03:31Yeah. You know, John, let's talk about starting pitching because when, with Rodon back and Cole
00:03:35coming back, it might not happen right away, but I think the cascade will be some of those starters
00:03:40will become relievers. I mean, I've long believed that the lefty-righty setup men on this team
00:03:46ultimately are going to be Carlos Segranje and Ryan Weathers for their biggest games. Though the way
00:03:52Ryan Weathers pitched last night, I guess maybe it's hard to take him out of the rotation.
00:03:57Though on this rotation, he might be the fourth or fifth starter. But I, you know, he's, I don't
00:04:02think he's ever thrown a hundred innings in a season. So I think they're going to have to slow
00:04:05him down anyway at some point. And I could see him going to the bullpen. John, you know what I
00:04:10find
00:04:11fascinating? I was sitting down the other day. I wonder what you think about this. And I was trying
00:04:14to figure out from the teams that are struggling right now for the Yankees, which bullpen arm.
00:04:19And you know, you could argue that the best bullpen arm who could and should get traded
00:04:23is Aroldis Chapman. Yeah, I wonder. He signed a one-year deal there. Do they have some side
00:04:29agreement where he's not getting traded? I don't know. I also think the Yankees wouldn't reacquire
00:04:33him. Yeah, I know. He's been in trouble. It's an excellent point. Yeah. He's been great everywhere
00:04:37else, right? He's had some bad moments with the Yankees. So yeah, I don't think that'll be a fit.
00:04:43But they do need to improve the setup situation. Weathers, I thought he'd be in the bullpen for sure.
00:04:49He's pitched so well. That's a question at this point now. Legrande is an obvious one,
00:04:56right? And throwing 103 miles an hour. You know, DeVal right now, I mean, you know,
00:05:01too many questions. I mean, the guy's got a great arm, you know, but, you know, he still doesn't get
00:05:07the pitch calm. He can't hold runners on. I don't see him as a setup, a viable setup guy in
00:05:13October,
00:05:14at least at this point. You know, John, I'll tell you one other thing on this subject is,
00:05:18it's been a long time, about 20-ish years or so. The Yankees acquired Pudge Rodriguez at the
00:05:23deadline one year. I think Posada might've been hurt and they went and got Pudge. And afterwards,
00:05:31Brian Cashman talked about that he would try never again at the deadline to acquire a catcher
00:05:37because integrating a catcher because of the relationship they have with the pitchers is so
00:05:42difficult midstream. And I think that has probably only gotten more difficult as the game plans have
00:05:48become more specific and framing has become more so. But I actually think that Ryan Jeffers fits the
00:05:55Yankees perfectly. If they're looking for another right-hand bat and a catcher who could do it,
00:06:01and he's a free agent at the end of the year, I wouldn't understand why the Twins wouldn't move him
00:06:05at some point, but just to throw it out there. Next question is from Jason J.P. Evans, who writes,
00:06:14if Spencer Jones ends up not hitting well while Stanton is hurt, could it impact center field plans
00:06:19for 27? Could they move an arm for an option at second base next year? I think he probably means
00:06:26center field next year, like the Monty, which I assume is the Montgomery for Bader trade where they
00:06:32made where Bader ended up the center fielder for the rest of the season and then the next season.
00:06:36Maybe it's classic Yankee fan where a quarter of the way through this season, he's worried about who
00:06:40the center fielder next year could be. Go ahead, John. Yeah, you know, the Yankees have very little
00:06:48worry about. I mean, you could pick on the fact they've only won one game against the winning team,
00:06:52I guess. I don't know. You know, I think they look great to me. I know they've lost a few
00:06:58in a row as
00:06:59we do this, but, you know, what else are they going to do but worry about the following seasons?
00:07:06Yeah, I don't know. Second base is going to be something that we'll watch, right? I think that's
00:07:09interesting. Jazz's free agency, I think, is very interesting. You know, obviously...
00:07:15Maybe he did name second base then, yeah.
00:07:17Yeah, I think he did. You know, what do you think? Are they enamored enough of Jazz? I mean,
00:07:24obviously he's got some great skills. He's off to a bad start now, but, you know, he's had some
00:07:30moments, but he's got some great skills. I know he threw a number out there in springtime. I can't
00:07:35remember what it was. It was like $35 million for eight years or something like that. You know,
00:07:40he'll say whatever he wants to say at the moment. I don't think he's getting $35 million. I mean,
00:07:44obviously, he didn't know he was going to get off this kind of a start. I believe in him. I
00:07:47think
00:07:47he's going to end up being $30 million again, although he's not close to the 30 home runs yet.
00:07:52But what does he actually get, and do they bring him back? I'm not so worried about center field.
00:07:58You know, I think Spencer Jones is going to be good, ultimately. Dominguez may be better in
00:08:03center. Bellinger can play center. So I'm not worried in center. I'm looking at second base.
00:08:08If you're going to worry about something, I would say Jazz being a free agent, I'd look at that a
00:08:12little bit. Yeah, you know, I don't even know what you would make as Spencer Jones having a lot of
00:08:18trouble, because I think he's going to have a lot of trouble. I would remember that Aaron
00:08:21Judge struck out 40% of the time in that cam out for two months in 26. Now, I'm not
00:08:27here to say
00:08:28he's going to be Aaron Judge, who's probably one of the 20 greatest hitters who's ever played
00:08:32baseball. But I would say if you could be 80% of Judge, that's an exceptional player also. So I
00:08:40think Jones is going to have to see a lot of major league pitching to find out if he could
00:08:44hit major
00:08:45league pitching. The worry I would have if I'm starting to play the 2027 game is I would put it
00:08:50at
00:08:50close to 0% that they bring Jazz Chisholm back. I just don't think that they're all that enamored
00:08:56of him in the front office if you had him on truth serum. But if he leaves Grisham leads and
00:09:03Spencer
00:09:04Jones doesn't flourish, you're back to what was a problem a couple of years ago. You're starting to
00:09:08burn through a lot of left hand hitters when they're not that easy to find. And so they kind of
00:09:14need Jones, I think, or Dominguez, if and when he gets healthy, to be able to hit. And centerfield
00:09:22and third base have become very difficult places to find players to play well at a pretty high level.
00:09:28I'm with you on Jones. I like that. Judge struck out, what, he hit 84 at-bats,
00:09:3542 strikeouts, something like that. And he's become an all-time great. So let's not give up on him
00:09:40quickly. He's had some tough tests already to come in against the guy who's starting pitcher
00:09:45throwing 104 miles an hour. First time we've ever seen that. Then a tough lefty. So, you know, it's
00:09:50early in the game. I still like Jones. Yeah, Jazz, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, they say only great
00:09:57things about it. I don't know. But I do think even though I don't believe he's going to get 35
00:10:01times
00:10:01eight, the minimum is probably the bias deal, right? Six for 140, right? So that's a lot of money to
00:10:08invest at second base. The Cubs invested that kind of money at second base. They obviously love
00:10:13Nico Horner. Jazz, it's going to be an interesting free agency. See which way they go. Yeah, fascinating.
00:10:19This is from Mets, South Florida. Are the Mets shopping players already seeing Peralta rumors
00:10:24floating around? Go ahead, John. No, I don't think they're shopping anybody yet. They're certainly
00:10:30hoping not to be a seller, but being realistic about it, there is obviously a chance that they were
00:10:37the only teammates going into yesterday on a pace to lose 100 games. So they're obviously not giving
00:10:42up on the season. They called up A.J. Ewing. So they're still trying to win this year. So not
00:10:51shopping yet. If they do shop, I will say that I think Peralta and Holmes are the guys with value,
00:11:00right? Peralta is a free agent after the year. Holmes will be a free agent because presumably he's
00:11:05going to opt out. Holmes has been spectacular this year. He's been great overall as a starter.
00:11:13Peralta's been good. I mean, I know he's got the bugaboo about the sixth inning, but he's got an
00:11:18ERA around three. He's a big clubhouse plus. So I think those are the two guys they could get
00:11:25something really good for. Beyond that, I'm not sure there are guys that they... I saw somebody
00:11:30mentioned Bichette. I mean, he's got the opt-out with the 5 million he gets if he opts out.
00:11:35It's a lot of money for a guy hitting 230 or whatever he's hitting right now. I know he's
00:11:40hitting some bad luck. He's actually been good at third base and fine at shortstop. So defensively,
00:11:45he's been good. But I don't know what his value is. I don't think it would be much really as
00:11:52a trade
00:11:52option. You know, the one thing I would keep in mind on Bichette or anybody who makes money is
00:11:58Steve Cohen was willing to eat about $85 million to make Scherzer and Verlander go away
00:12:03to get prospects in return. And I think he looks at investments as if they go bad, they go bad,
00:12:09get out and get what you can. Of course, look, Ryan Clifford might turn into a player,
00:12:17but pretty much the haul they got for those two guys, Scherzer and Verlander, haven't shown up yet
00:12:22for anything significant on the major league roster. John, I have a question. So I agree,
00:12:31if they go into sell mode, the two most obvious guys are Peralta and Holmes. I think lefty relievers
00:12:37are always in demand. You don't get a ton for it, but I would assume you could trade Brooks Raley.
00:12:42And if Minter ever got healthy, I assume you could trade him. Instead of trading, would you try to
00:12:47extend Holmes? Considering that you've done poorly in the marketplace with the Montasas and the
00:12:54Minayas, this is a guy who's double New York proven. Yankees as a reliever, Mets as a starter,
00:13:01it seems he's grown in the role. I assume he likes New York. He's played here. I assume he knows
00:13:09there'll be a nice market for him in the off season if he wants. Do you want to say to
00:13:15him,
00:13:15hey, we'll remove some of the mystery for you as far as if you'll pitch well or stay healthy in
00:13:20the second half? And instead of trading him, how about extending him? Sure. Why not? I'd give it a
00:13:26shot. He's obviously very good in New York. He signed up here once already and he's really thrived.
00:13:32I know it's getting kind of obscured by their overall terrible start and struggles of most of
00:13:39their players. But he has been great. Why not give it a try? Maybe he likes it here so much
00:13:46he would
00:13:46take a discount. I don't know. I know Steve Cohen doesn't mind paying for great players anyway. So
00:13:54I mean, I'd give it a try. There aren't a lot of players who are about to be free agents
00:13:59who do sign
00:14:02within months of free agency. It doesn't happen very often, but can't hurt to give it a shot.
00:14:06Yeah. John, this would be the last one. It's from Hagan Snell BB. It's funny, John. You asked one of
00:14:15the best questions you could ask at a press conference of Carlos Mendoza. I like short and
00:14:22to the point, hard-hitting questions. And you said to Carlos Mendoza, like bluntly, you use that,
00:14:30are you just not a very good team? And that's the question here. Have you considered the possibility
00:14:33that this team, the Mets, just isn't any good? Now you've got to answer that question. You made
00:14:39Carlos Mendoza answer. Well, I've considered it. I certainly think that's a strong possibility.
00:14:44I mean, I think that's the correct answer. But from his standpoint, Carlos Mendoza gave the right
00:14:51answer, which is, I still believe, I believe in these guys. You know, what's he, what's he supposed
00:14:56to say? He's not supposed to say. You can't, in his position, you can't say, you know, I really
00:15:03have considered that a lot. And I'm really wondering this, this might not be a very good
00:15:07team. I think that's what everyone else was thinking in that room. And maybe he thinks
00:15:12that to some degree, but he's got to believe. And, you know, I don't consider it a lie. You
00:15:17know, that's what the manager's got to say. And probably in some corner of his brain, he does
00:15:21believe in these guys. And at least, and maybe he really does completely believe in
00:15:26it. But to me, you know, managers can't exactly say that, you know, we asked them many times
00:15:32in spring training, are you worried about Minaya? He was throwing, you know, I wouldn't
00:15:36say like me, but he wasn't going to be able to get major league earners out throwing 87,
00:15:4088 miles. And of course he says he's not worried about Minaya, but, you know, you got to say
00:15:45it. So Minaya gave the quote unquote right answer. But I think everybody in the room and
00:15:51everybody outside the room has considered that possibility and thinks it's a pretty
00:15:56strong possibility at this point.
00:15:59Yeah. You know, John, I do this with our assistant sports editor, Mark Hale. I do a
00:16:03thing before the season every year. Like I discuss like, what do I think is the percentage
00:16:08that it goes horribly wrong for the two New York teams? So like this year I said, I don't
00:16:13know, like for the Yankees, it feels like three to 5% horribly wrong. So like I've had about
00:16:18a 95% confidence that they'd be really good for the Mets. I said, I don't know, like,
00:16:23like 12 to 15%, maybe a drop higher. I mean, obviously I'm way higher than that now because
00:16:30what worries me about the Mets is what do they do well? Like to win at some point, they're
00:16:37going to have to win like 16 out of 20, right? To kind of like steady this up and get
00:16:42back
00:16:43to it. You know, it's a long way to, I believe the trade deadline's August 3rd this year. It's a
00:16:48long way to August 3rd. And probably if you're at 500 or a little over by then, you could consider
00:16:54yourself where six teams in each league are making the playoffs that you got a real shot. 83 wins
00:16:58got somebody in last year. Didn't get the Mets in, but it got a team in at 80, 83 last
00:17:04year,
00:17:04the Reds. And so like, the question is, can they get to like a trajectory where they think they
00:17:09could get to 85 to 87? I do. But to me, the only way is you, you mentioned this to
00:17:16some degree,
00:17:17John, with one of your previous answers. I think we both think McClain and Holmes are really good
00:17:21and that Peralta is better than this so far. So you've got like a pretty good opening three.
00:17:27Christian Scott has shown some stuff. He's a four. And at least Peterson, even if you have to throw an
00:17:34opener in front of him, has given them some positive length where this is and feel like, okay,
00:17:39there's one place where you have some solidity perhaps. And maybe you figure out Jonah Tong as
00:17:45the season goes along or Senga gets fixed or Mania finds, like, like you have to believe someplace.
00:17:50I think it's starting pitching is the place to believe something. Can you hold on long enough
00:17:56to begin to get back to Polanco, Robert Lindor, where you get a lineup going also? It's just like,
00:18:02I just feel like there's a lot of holes in the boat as opposed to a hole in the boat
00:18:07that is making
00:18:07it sink. Yeah. Well, I mean, they're 10 games under at this point, so it doesn't look good,
00:18:13but we've seen teams turn around at 10 games under. I mean, no. Including them two years ago.
00:18:19Yeah. Right. When we cite fan graphs, usually I cite to make fun of it. There's playoff odds. Last
00:18:25year, they had the Mets at 96% at one point fairly late in the season. I'm like, we're watching
00:18:31it.
00:18:31Your computer's not watching this. This is not 96%. I still thought it was more than 50%, but it
00:18:38wasn't 96%. They have them 21%, 22% still. So, you know, they do have a computer. They do know
00:18:45the
00:18:45history of these players. There is some facts behind this. It is possible. They are going to have to hit
00:18:52better than this. Now, you're right. You've got to at least tread water until you get Lindor and Polanco
00:18:57go back. That lineup they're thrown out there, right? Who was their number? I mean, I love Slater
00:19:02personally, but he was their number three hitter, right? A guy who was released by the Marlins.
00:19:07Melendez, a guy who signed a split contract. He's batted third or fourth. The lineups that are
00:19:11thrown out there now are not going to get them back in the race quickly. They might be able to
00:19:15trade water, but they're last in baseball, in offense, in almost every category. San Francisco had a
00:19:22couple good games recently, and it's not close. Like, their OPS for the whole team is, like, worse
00:19:28than, like, a great hitting pitcher. It's really, they've got to hit better. You can't be a 30th
00:19:35hitting team and expect to be a playoff team. That's not likely to happen. So, they're going to
00:19:41have to do a lot better than they've done. Did we know this was coming? No. I think Joel's estimates
00:19:47are close. We did say early on it could go either way, because you've got all these new players
00:19:52coming into New York. The reliability factor was definitely an issue. You don't have Nimmo playing
00:19:57almost every day. Alonzo playing every day. You know, you're getting, bringing in guys with an
00:20:02injury history, and it's all kind of blown up in their face right now. Now, there's three quarters
00:20:07of the season to go, and like you, I'm not giving up completely. I'm not sure it's as high as
00:20:1221%,
00:20:13but there is some chance they get back in this. Yeah, they just have too much in the poker pot
00:20:17for me, John, to kind of, like, if they get to mid-July and it's this bad, you know, there's
00:20:24still
00:20:24two, three weeks to make the trades you would want to make to kind of, like, do it. I think
00:20:30they have
00:20:30to try to fix it as much as possible. I bring up AJ Ewing, and yet I think it's the
00:20:36right thing. I think
00:20:36they need to change energy and narrative, and he's an energy player. And I think fans always like
00:20:42homegrown more than anything, and if he gives them anything positive, what is very bad energy
00:20:47at Citi Field would get a little better. So I think that's positive. Can I, I'll ask one last
00:20:52question. Would you, if you were in charge, I think my answer is a no, but I'm curious what you
00:20:58think. Would you throw a Hail Mary and take on a bad contract of a guy struggling someplace else?
00:21:05Uh, like, especially if you could park, like, Minaya and Senga for Devers, or...
00:21:12I knew that too you were going to mention Devers. You know, I think I'd rather take Christian Walker
00:21:17at this moment, who's doing well. But he's not going to be a giveaway, right? Like, he's a good
00:21:22player having a good year. Right. You're just talking about the money. I mean, I wouldn't do it
00:21:26today. I mean, at this point, you know, whether you think their chances are 21%, or I would say
00:21:31closer, a little bit lower than that, uh, yeah, to take on another $200 million with a long deal,
00:21:38I maybe... Yeah, I think the answer is no. Yeah. Maybe if you got found somebody who was an expiring
00:21:43deal, uh, maybe, uh, how about Mike Trout? Would you, would you take him? Probably not, right? Even
00:21:50though we... Probably not. I don't think I'd do all any of this, because I just think that you're in,
00:21:54you're in the quicksand right now, and whatever temporary thing you might get, I think you'll regret
00:22:00long-term. You know, Trevor Story is playing terribly. Uh, he was playing terribly last year,
00:22:06and then in the last four months was really good. He's always a good defender. He's always a good
00:22:10base runner. Like, you know, like, would you... And clearly, what's going on in Boston is not great,
00:22:15and he's kind of in the middle of some of the emotional stuff going on. Would you roll the dice?
00:22:20It's 20... It's the rest of $25 million this year. It's all the $25 million next year.
00:22:25Like, and in some... Where does he play? I don't know. Well, well, he plays shortstop right now. Right.
00:22:30Or gets back, and then ultimately, hey, like, he plays him... Who's ever hitting best among him and
00:22:36Simeon plays second base, uh, when Lindor comes back. And, uh, you know, like, again...
00:22:43I don't see him as a potential savior, even at his best. He was really good last year. He did
00:22:48a lot of
00:22:48decent stuff. I mean, they need more than that, you know? I mean, he's a good, very good player. He
00:22:55was
00:22:55an exceptional talent. I think still at his best. He's a good player. Uh, he's not lifting them to
00:23:01the playoffs, I don't think. So, I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't do that one. There's just so many
00:23:05dead places in their lineup that I'm trying to figure out if there's places to improve. But,
00:23:10of course, right now, Trevor Story's a dead place in the Red Sox lineup. Right.
00:23:14Devers is... He's perked up a little bit, Devers, but he's mainly been a dead spot without power in
00:23:20the Giant lineup. Right. You know, you mentioned that, uh, Steve Cohen was willing to cut bait,
00:23:26uh, with Scherzer and Verlander, whatever, Verlander, you know? What did they get for that,
00:23:31though? Was that worth it? That's what I'm saying is, like, if all you get is Ryan Clifford,
00:23:35do you really want to do this again? Yeah. Yeah. And we're probably going to see Ryan Clifford
00:23:39pretty soon. He's doing pretty well in AAA, but he's not a, you know, he's not a, the next coming
00:23:45of, uh, Freddie Freeman or Pete Alonso or whatever, you know? So, uh, you know, he paid half the
00:23:52contracts down. He was able to save half the contract. He did save some of the money. He
00:23:56wasn't completely dead money, but, uh, that was almost better than the, what they got back.
00:24:02Right. They have, they didn't get that much back for these guys, right? They got Luis Angel Acuna,
00:24:07who was just a throw in, in a deal, right? For Luis Robert, uh, junior. Uh, yeah. They got
00:24:13Drew, they got Drew Gilbert, who was part of the, the hall for Tyler Rogers last year,
00:24:19who has shown himself. He was good, but he was a rental and he was only part of the hall
00:24:23for the
00:24:23rental. Right. So, but Drew Gilbert has only shown himself. He's probably going to be a fourth
00:24:28outfield type, you know, like you didn't get a heck of a lot for eating a lot of money.
00:24:33Right. And when you get a lot for, it's a rental on, on both guys, right? Uh, Peralta.
00:24:40No, no, no. For, uh, for, uh, Berlin. No, I'm talking about the guys they have now.
00:24:45Oh, okay. Peralta is a rental and Holmes will opt out. You know, teams are don't love that opt
00:24:52out either because if a guy gets hurt, then he doesn't opt out, but it's 12 million, I think.
00:24:57Right. Or 13 million. It's not a ton.
00:24:58We talk about 12 million, like it's nothing. And, you know, I guess for Steve, maybe it is
00:25:02nothing, but, uh, it's a little, it's another, it's a little bit of a negative, but they will
00:25:07have value, but they're rentals. They're not, you're not getting, uh, you know, three years
00:25:11of a great pitcher. So they, they need all, if they're going to be bad, they need like what's
00:25:18going on in the rest of the national league to continue, which is like a lot of teams jammed
00:25:23in who could probably use us like the Cubs, the Reds or like whoever, uh, will need one
00:25:29more starting pitcher where you have some teams bidding against each other. Cause again, John,
00:25:34like I'm running my finger. It's how I came up with a Roldis Chapman is like, you just run
00:25:38your fingers down. The who could trade starting pitching is like Boston's bad. If Sonny Gray
00:25:45gets healthy, can they trade Sonny Gray? It's like, like, it's not going to be like the Mets
00:25:50might have two really good ones for the marketplace. If, yeah. Well, San Francisco has Robbie Ray
00:25:56and potentially Logan Webb. And we see that Buster Posey is willing to be bold. So maybe,
00:26:01but yeah, you mentioned the national league jammed up, but one thing to mention is also,
00:26:07you're not going to get in on 83 wins. They're going to, Mets are really going to have to rally,
00:26:11right? Cause the national league has improved. The American league has gone down. National league
00:26:15looks much better at central. I know the national yeast is no great shakes, but the national league
00:26:20central is the best division in baseball. Yeah. I think at this moment, we're speaking,
00:26:26there's four teams over 500 in the American league and only three of them have a positive
00:26:31run differential. And one of those positive run differentials, I think is a plus one.
00:26:35So it's essentially raising the Yankees have like good records and good plus minus differentials.
00:26:40We did a lot of talking about the Mets who obviously are a long distance from the Braves in
00:26:45the national league. The long time brave manager, Bobby Cox passed away last week. We're going to
00:26:53have on John Smoltz to talk about Bobby's legacy and a few other things. If you stick with us on
00:26:58the show.
00:27:04John and I are so pleased to be joined by 2015 Hall of Famer, 1996 NL Cy Young Award winner,
00:27:13Fox's in the Fox main booth with Joe Davis. I tell you my favorite, John Smoltz, thank you for joining
00:27:19us.
00:27:19First of all, John, can I tell you my two favorite, John Smoltz statistical facts? One is you're the,
00:27:27I know people think they know this maybe is only guy in major league history, 200 wins and 150 saves.
00:27:34It does say something about the durability and flexibility of your career. And the other one
00:27:39is just because winning matters so much to me. Imagine if someone this year pitched 209 innings
00:27:46and went 15 and four with a 267 ERA and threw in four saves. That's your postseason in 41 games
00:27:51in 27 starts. The biggest moments, John Smoltz was great. Again, John, thank you so much for joining
00:27:57us. You seem like a natural person to reach out to with the recent passing of your longtime manager.
00:28:05And I believe Bobby Cox was even the person who acquired you, right? He was the general manager
00:28:09at that point. Obviously, there's a lot of different ways to go. Why don't I just open broad?
00:28:15Would you like to, what, what, what you thought of Bobby Cox and, uh, obviously thoughts on his
00:28:20passing? Yeah. So he was absolutely, um, he impacted so many people, but nobody did he impact more than
00:28:27me. Uh, you mentioned it that, you know, I was a, uh, I was in double A struggling in Detroit
00:28:33and he
00:28:34was the general manager at Atlanta Braves trying to reshape the organization, trying to rebuild the
00:28:38minor leagues. He made a bunch of trades. He made a bunch of drafts and he traded for me,
00:28:42um, Doyle Alexander trade as a GM. And when I got over the devastation of it, when I got over
00:28:49the
00:28:50disappointment of going from my hometown team to the Atlanta Braves, I realized what a break that
00:28:54was for me. Never did I know that I was going to play for him as a manager for about
00:29:0019 years.
00:29:00And once I got to see his managerial skills, what he did, his leadership, um, he's the single most
00:29:08reason why I became the pitcher. I did people forget 1991. I was two and 11 in the first half,
00:29:15everybody was calling for me to go to the bullpen or get sent down. And Bobby believed in his players.
00:29:19He believed in the process. He had a gut. He got criticized for his gut, but it was the reason
00:29:25why we won his ability to motivate players was beyond what anybody else could know his confidence
00:29:31in players when they knew the game was tough. He said, I think he said to somebody that it was
00:29:37the
00:29:37best two and 11 season he'd ever seen. Um, but I owe everything to him. You know, it's why I
00:29:43stayed
00:29:43there 19 years. I turned down so much money to go to the Yankees, the Phillies. Uh, I wanted to
00:29:48play
00:29:49for Bobby Cox and I was so glad I did. Well, thank you again for joining us. Uh, John really
00:29:54appreciate that. And John was a colleague of ours, a great teammate by the way. So we know him a
00:29:59little
00:29:59better than, than most of our guests probably. And so I I've heard the tiger story and I'd like
00:30:05you to tell it again. Cause I think that really exemplifies Bobby. Yeah. Bobby, first of all,
00:30:10knew our personalities knew that if we were going to be an adult, we wouldn't take advantage of the
00:30:14things that he has set forth. He had three simple rules. They're the three most simplest rules
00:30:18that nobody could abide by by today. Think about this, wear your hat, right? Show up on time and
00:30:25no music in the clubhouse, wear your headphones everywhere you go. He didn't believe that you
00:30:29should not be a great teammate by showing up on time. And why not wear your uniform, right? Don't
00:30:34cover up the A on the top of your head. So those are three simple rules. He knew that us
00:30:39pitchers
00:30:39were coming in early to do our work and we were never going to take advantage of the system.
00:30:44He also knew we were going to win because of us three pitchers and the pitching staff that
00:30:48he had built. So one spring training, I played a lot of golf with tiger. We were in Orlando and
00:30:54tiger
00:30:54called me on a Friday and said, what are you doing? Sunday morning wheels up at 8 AM. And we're
00:30:58going
00:30:58to go to Augusta. And this is like three weeks before the masters. And I'm just sitting here
00:31:03going, are you kidding me? Uh, and I said, can you give me a day? I got to find out.
00:31:08I've got a
00:31:09light day Sunday. I don't think I can do it tiger. He goes, yeah, just see what you can do.
00:31:13So I walked in on that Saturday and I kind of asked if anybody had, you know, how was Bobby?
00:31:19Is Bobby in a good mood? Yeah, he's in his office and he was set his feet up. He was
00:31:23smoking a cigar,
00:31:24just like you would do every single day. And I said, Bobby, I got a question. I know the answer
00:31:29to, but I, you know, hate myself if I didn't ask you, here's the deal. I got a light day
00:31:34Sunday and I
00:31:35laid out the scenario and he looked at me and he said, Smoltsy, I'll see you on Monday. And I
00:31:40mean,
00:31:41to this day, I still can't believe that, that that was allowed to happen. Nobody found out. Now,
00:31:46obviously we don't have the media coverage that we have today. And that would have never happened
00:31:50today. Every someone would have found out with social media, but he didn't care. And he knew
00:31:54that I was never going to look at that situation as I'm better than the rest. And he also knew
00:32:00that
00:32:00his team and his squad that he was leading, he would give certain perks to certain guys who can
00:32:06handle it. And he treated you like if you were 19 or 30, the same, if you were an adult.
00:32:12And if you
00:32:12weren't an adult, he taught you how to be one. Well, I just want to ask you, since you played
00:32:16with Tiger, did you beat him? I did not beat him that day. The story gets better because I was
00:32:21so
00:32:21excited that I was late. I couldn't find his FBO. I couldn't find the plane. I was so nervous.
00:32:27We got there late. We missed our practice on the, on the practice range. We'd go right to the first
00:32:32tee
00:32:32and I hit it down the middle of the fairway. He hit it in a bunker and we're walking down
00:32:36that
00:32:36hill. And I said, today's going to be my day, Tiger. And he said, it might. And I made a
00:32:40double
00:32:41bogey out of that fairway and he made a par. He shot 66. I shot 76. And it was like
00:32:48it was in his
00:32:48backyard. Yeah. Well, 10 within Tiger is still great and around, I would say. You know, what's
00:32:54interesting is I had heard the Tiger Woods story before. I heard Jeff Francor tell almost a similar
00:33:01story about him playing with Tiger. And what, what stood out for me and tell me if you think
00:33:07I'm right is like Bobby Cox is looked at as old school, but to me, Bobby Cox knew what to
00:33:13sweat and
00:33:13what not to sweat. He could trust that John Smoltz would be emotionally, spiritually, physically,
00:33:20mentally ready. And letting him do something special was not going to upset the team if they found out
00:33:27about it. It didn't upset him. And just at a time where we could probably get touchy about things,
00:33:32I just wonder about like an adult in the room, understanding what to sweat and what not to
00:33:36sweat. Oh, he was the best at it, you know, and he was upfront and very honest. Like when we
00:33:40would
00:33:40get a free agent, whether it was Sheffield or Teixeira or anybody that we brought over that wasn't
00:33:46used to the system, right? Spring training was the greatest spring training. And that's the reason why
00:33:50I stayed. I mean, it was so good. He had no, we call them eye wash where you do drills
00:33:55just to keep
00:33:55people there. He would tell the position players, Hey, look, you see those three guys that are leaving
00:33:59at 1030, 11 o'clock every spring training, get over it because we're going to win with those guys.
00:34:05And they're doing their work and they're showing up at 630 every morning. So he did understand the
00:34:10room. He understood what personalities and what made us click. And when opportunities presented
00:34:15itself, he knew who to give it to and who not listen. He also in a day and age where
00:34:20it's so difficult
00:34:21to play this game, he would go to his coaches and he goes, find out what players have incentives and
00:34:28I'm going to see what I can do for them because I know how hard it is. So he knew
00:34:32that if somebody
00:34:33in the room was not capable of, he wouldn't, he was brutally honest. He would tell you what your
00:34:37role is, what you're going to do, what your expectations were. And at the same time, he would
00:34:41get out in front of the media, take all the blame, get thrown out of the games. He did things
00:34:45that
00:34:46we would question, why are you doing it? And we look back and we go, now we know because the
00:34:50game is
00:34:50hard. And so whether it was with a Jeff Francoeur who was a vibrant young player, or it was a
00:34:58Brian
00:34:58McCann when I asked him, I went to, I didn't do this but one time in my career, I was
00:35:04having a hard
00:35:04time with the current catcher that was catching me. And I said, Bobby, I want the kid. I want Brian
00:35:09McCann. And so he called him up and Brian and I won seven in a row. And Brian was thrilled
00:35:16and had
00:35:16an unbelievable career, as you can imagine. He then decided he needed to give Brian a day off
00:35:22on one of the days that I pitched and I lost. Now that's on me, but he came to me,
00:35:28he goes,
00:35:28that won't happen again. You got him the rest of the year. He just understood what made his tick.
00:35:33When I went to the closers role, there was all kinds of buzz about, well, now John can't play golf.
00:35:38Now this is going to be tough. And I went to him and I said, Bobby, I'm going to do
00:35:41whatever you ask,
00:35:42but you know, my personality, um, you're okay. If I play golf, he goes, absolutely. Smoltsy. I don't
00:35:48have a problem with it. General manager and the management team had a problem with it. And they
00:35:52questioned what and how that would work out. But then after 55 saves, nobody said a word.
00:35:57He knew what made us tick. And he knew that we could, he could put an arm around you and
00:36:02kick
00:36:02you in the butt and give you a pat on the back. But he knew more than anything, the game
00:36:06was hard.
00:36:07You obviously, you mentioned you played for him for 19 years. You did play for others.
00:36:11You're a very observant guy who's been continued to be around the game. When Matt, what do you manage
00:36:16playing for a hall of famer who you think got so much, right? What do you think managers get wrong?
00:36:21What, what do you think is the thing that's a commonality?
00:36:24I think what managers get wrong is the pressure and cannot and connected to the outcome. Like
00:36:29that it changes their, it changes their vision. It changes their decision because the pressure of
00:36:35winning, um, you know, is connected to the outcome instead of seeing the long game, seeing the
00:36:40process of managing the room and understanding, uh, this player may have just had a fight with his
00:36:44wife and he came home or he had a tough day and you're managing people and you're understanding
00:36:49that 162 games is not normal. And at the same time, you're motivating them. And I think what,
00:36:55what managers sometimes because of the pressures up above and they're not connected and they don't
00:37:00have the room, they just a conduit and just a vehicle that they lose the opportunity to instill
00:37:05confidence in guys when they're struggling. It's easier to not put a guy in when he's one for 20
00:37:10than it is. And so Bobby didn't look, he looked past that and said, look, I laugh back. I laugh
00:37:16a
00:37:16little bit because we weren't in the biggest market, but imagine if we were in the biggest market and
00:37:21we only won one championship. He would, he was getting crushed as it was, and it wasn't his fault,
00:37:27but yet he was also getting credit for the same thing. He was getting crushed for business-like
00:37:32attitude, you know, cost braves. Then it was business-like attitudes, why they win all these
00:37:38things. He was well, he was ready to handle. He could sit in a scrum with all the reporters every
00:37:43single day, no matter what happened. And then the day previous didn't matter where that doesn't happen
00:37:48today. And the game is totally different. So managing people is not even an attribute that they
00:37:54look for. It's managing the information and win now at all costs. You mentioned the brave success
00:38:01there, only one World Series championship, but 14 division titles. How do you look at that time?
00:38:07And is there any, I mean, he, you know, most people look at it as it was just luck at
00:38:12the
00:38:13Yankees or, you know, it's a few games. A lot of people say it's crapshoot or whatever. Obviously,
00:38:18the Yankees had a dynasty and you lost to them a couple of times. You know, is it, you know,
00:38:24bad luck to play them, bad luck in the games? Were you just not quite good enough? You know,
00:38:29I mean, obviously incredible success, a dynasty, 14 division titles in a row. It's amazing. But
00:38:37only one World Series championship. Does that, does that bother you today? And is there anything
00:38:43you can put your finger on about that? Oh yeah. I've said all the time, you know,
00:38:47how much it bothers me and how many times we had a chance to execute that we didn't.
00:38:51Um, we were, um, in that run three times, had no business getting to the playoffs. That was the
00:38:56reason Bobby was such a great manager. We had no reason. Like we got lopped into that 14 years in
00:39:02a row. And you would assume that basically on numerical numbers, we should have more championships.
00:39:06When you lose your first eight World Series games by one run, that's baseball. You could have lost
00:39:11them all by 10. It would have been the same. We had, uh, scenarios that changed in the front office.
00:39:16We made moves after not winning in 96. 96 was the crux that changed everything. We had the Yankees
00:39:22beat. We played that series a hundred times. We win 99 after being up 2-0. Well, we found the
00:39:27one
00:39:28time the Yankees, um, you know, were able to win the next four games, they went on to win four
00:39:32out of
00:39:32five. I say it all the time that when by numbers alone, there's no doubt our players, our teams,
00:39:38we should have won more, but we'll never ever, if you could have put me in a time machine that
00:39:43I could
00:39:43go back, even knowing the outcome of not winning a World Series, but knowing we were going to be in
00:39:48the playoffs 14 years in a row, what more could you ask as a player? Every year we went to
00:39:53spring
00:39:53training, we had a chance every year. What came out of our manager's mouth was believable. And yet
00:39:59every year we had a chance to win a World Series and we just didn't get it done. Execution is
00:40:05the
00:40:05reason. And yeah, it looks like, again, when you lop them together, we should have, but at the end of
00:40:13the day, no one will ever do what we did. Yeah. You know, Smolsy, I, I kind of use your
00:40:17team as
00:40:17the example, like, like the Yankees are in a run similar to your run right now where they make
00:40:22playoffs every year, but they've only won in 2009 about how tough it is. And I point out you pitched
00:40:29two vital games that you lost one. You couldn't pitch better. You lost to Jack Morris, won nothing
00:40:33and you lost to Andy Pettit, won nothing. Uh, and, and like, if you win either of those games,
00:40:39obviously if you win game seven, you win that world, you know, the World Series. And I think if you
00:40:43win game six, uh, game five in Atlanta, you'd probably win the world World Series that year.
00:40:49I mean, just how fickle, uh, that time of year can be like, you never want to say it's a
00:40:54complete
00:40:55crapshoot, but there you, you, you shake the snow globe a little bit. The Braves win a lot of
00:41:01championships. Absolutely. Yeah. My dream year was 1996. I would trade my dream year to win that
00:41:06World Series. I won 24 games in a regular season. I was four and O going in the post season,
00:41:11going into
00:41:11that game against Pettit. I gave up an unearned run and we lose one to nothing and it all comes
00:41:16crumbling down. And you think about, you know, the, the oddity of sports and you're right. I mean,
00:41:21I've got a chance to pitch three game sevens, gave up only a total of two runs and won one
00:41:27game.
00:41:27It doesn't even seem possible, but that's sports in a nutshell. So when you're on that side of when
00:41:33momentum is going unbelievably well, and you, you, you see guys who bounce around the teams and they win
00:41:39three rings and then you see our run. And so, um, what we did as an organization is gave ourselves
00:41:45a chance every single year. You know what we did on the fly? We were, we were changing our
00:41:51organization. We were rebuilding and we still won. Everyone forgets that when Glavin left and Maddox
00:41:57left and I was still there, we, we had a rotation nowhere close, but still we're going to the post.
00:42:03And so there are so many things that we had, uh, going for us, even in the midst of that
00:42:08run.
00:42:08Is this a New York post podcast? And you mentioned the New York earlier, we all know the circumstances
00:42:13of why Greg Maddox decided to stay in Atlanta and rather than go to the Yankees when they'd offered,
00:42:18I've heard 34 million, 37 million. He's he went to Atlanta for 28 million, quite a bit less. Uh,
00:42:26you know, since you mentioned you had a chance to go to New York, tell me about the circumstances of
00:42:30that. How much did you leave on the table? And, and, you know, did you consider the Yankees,
00:42:36uh, pretty seriously? Yeah, I was there. I mean, literally there was the negotiations didn't go
00:42:42well in Atlanta. That was at a time where I just the year before had been the closer for the
00:42:47last
00:42:47month and was going to return back to starting coming off my Tommy John and Atlanta saw it
00:42:52differently. Atlanta wanted me to be the closer and the closer only no options. And I was frustrated
00:42:57with that and stick Gene Michael was the GM for the Yankees. And he, he knew that my arm was
00:43:04healthy
00:43:04and he offered me $52 million over four years, um, to go with the Yankees. And I wasn't getting
00:43:13anywhere close to that with the Braves. They were only offering me three years, uh, at about 7 million
00:43:20a year. So I was like, look, we're, we're, we're not even close. And, uh, I, I feel like, uh,
00:43:26thankfully
00:43:26my agent knew that my desire, look, I took less every time and I knew it, but I was boisterous
00:43:32about
00:43:32it because I want to stay in Atlanta and I didn't mind taking less, but this was a little bit
00:43:37crazy.
00:43:38And so I remember saying that Mariano Rivera is the best in our business. Nobody's better,
00:43:43but I'm not taking a penny less than him. It wasn't arrogance. It was just like, I don't want to
00:43:48be
00:43:48the closer. And I think a lot of people think I forced the Atlanta brace hands, which is the
00:43:53opposite of it. I was doing and willing to do whatever was best for the club, but that was not
00:43:58my desire. So we ended up working it out of the buzzer. But at one point I called my agent
00:44:02and said,
00:44:02call the Yankees, tell them I'm going. And he said, I, I had made a promise to, to John Sherhoff
00:44:09that I would go back one more time before we enacted this con. That's how close it was. I was
00:44:14on the
00:44:14golf course in Vegas. There was a stipulation that I had made that I, and once you cross that line
00:44:20that I'm, I'm going to make my decision. And I was going to the Yankees. And every time I saw
00:44:24Gene
00:44:24later, he's like, what happened? I said, I know it was that close. Um, but we worked it out of
00:44:30the
00:44:30buzzer. I became the closer for the next three years, mainly because again, I wanted to play with
00:44:36Bobby. And the beautiful part of that story full circle was there was an option in that contract at my
00:44:42fourth year at the highest value that I would ever make. If I finished 58 games as a closer,
00:44:48well, you know, that's hard to do. You got to get the last three outs 58 times. And I think
00:44:52I had
00:44:52like 20 some 22 in the first half. And Bobby came to me at some point in the second half.
00:44:58And he goes,
00:44:59listen, we're going to get that. I was like, what we're going to get what he goes, we're going to
00:45:03get
00:45:0358. You just have to tell me when you can't pitch. And I'm like, right on. And he had this
00:45:08champagne bottle for, it was a countdown to 58. Actually, it was a countdown to my 14 million.
00:45:14And Bobby was the biggest reason why, you know, today you could never do that. Management would
00:45:18have fired him on the spot, but he knew we were going to win with me. And he wanted me
00:45:23to be part
00:45:23of the organization the next year. When I tell you that was the essence of who Bobby was, that's why
00:45:29I played 19 years. You know, John is, uh, I don't know if it was obvious is, uh, I was
00:45:35blessed stick.
00:45:36Michael, uh, was good to me. He, you were like his white whale. Uh, he wanted you badly multiple
00:45:42times. I, he used to talk about how much it was your athleticism as a pitcher was like stick had
00:45:49a
00:45:49certain savantism about baseball and the athleticism of pitchers were a big deal. Pitchers who could hit
00:45:56stick well, even though they wouldn't hit for him in the American league. And he, he always, uh,
00:46:02made a big deal about it. I wonder though, if I could change from GM, we're talking about managers
00:46:06like, and again, John mentioned where, you know, a New York post, uh, podcast, the, the bets are
00:46:12struggling right now. When you do, do you think struggling teams, especially in this era, do you
00:46:19think it's on the manager or it's on the management? No, it's on the management. Um, they're asking the
00:46:25manager to process so much information and not really have the feel for the game as much as they
00:46:31have the answers to the test questions that are answered, right? They have very few influences in
00:46:37the clubhouse because you're handing the, you're handing the keys to players today. Players hold
00:46:42all the cards. They got the big contracts. They've got the reward system, which we could argue is a bad
00:46:47one, but it's good for the players. And so therefore you're putting the players in a position to run
00:46:52their own industry. They're their self, like they're their own owners. Right. And when that
00:46:57happens, you have to have such a unique presence in that locker room. And I don't know who that is
00:47:03anymore because of what goes on and egos and pride and all the things that, that happen in a major
00:47:08league uniform and a clubhouse is such disparity amongst the players now in the salary structure
00:47:15and the makeup of a team. How do you go to your star player and sit them down for something
00:47:20or tell
00:47:20him, you know, you got to do this better. And that's the one thing that Bobby did. He didn't
00:47:25care who you are. When he took out Andrew Jones in the middle of a game to make a point
00:47:31to the entire
00:47:32team, but more importantly to Andrew Jones, that never happened again. You can't do that today
00:47:36without it being a complaint up above or up above, not having your back. There's not the continuity
00:47:42that existed. Bobby held all the cards. He was the King of that locker room and that team.
00:47:48He could only get suggestions. He wasn't getting mandates today. It's opposite. You're getting
00:47:53mandates. You're not getting suggestions. And if you don't follow the mandates, you're not going to
00:47:58be what is considered a good soldier and stick around. I'm going to change it up a little bit.
00:48:04You want 213 games, 154 saves. I know the world has changed. You know, we're, we're now evaluating
00:48:12starting pitchers who've won, you know, 150 games, something like that, or even less. Jacob DeGrom,
00:48:19people are talking about him as a Hall of Famer. He's got 99 wins right now. You know, I mean,
00:48:25I think we all kind of agree. We need to reevaluate a little bit. How far down would you go?
00:48:30I mean,
00:48:31can somebody with 99 wins be a Hall of Famer?
00:48:34Or I tell you, you guys have an impossible job ahead of you because it is so difficult and such
00:48:41a vast difference between the, look, I know, I know it's, it's way different and we don't need
00:48:48to harp on it, but, but it, there comes a point where there has to be some similarities, some
00:48:54measure, some system that gets these next generational pitchers into the Hall of Fame.
00:49:00Cause the gap is going to be so wide. I don't know. I don't think it's going to work like
00:49:04this,
00:49:04but I don't know how you look the person in the eye, you know, when you see the room and
00:49:09you see
00:49:09the past and what was valued is no longer valued. So, um, I sure hope it's not 110 wins. I
00:49:18hope it's
00:49:18a lot more. I hope Jacob DeGrom, who's going to be the greatest case study can get to 150 can,
00:49:24can, can, can finish strong and win a lot more games. Uh, but the measure on the pitcher is you're
00:49:29right. It's totally, totally different. You know, you've had a lot of different ideas for
00:49:34improving the game. I thought one of them might've been that you suggested a six inning minimum for
00:49:39the starters. Uh, how would that work? And it, you know, obviously we've had a lot of injury
00:49:45concerns with the pitchers lately. You, you had some surgeries and obviously still had a very long
00:49:50uh, successful career. Uh, are you an advocate for that six inning minimum? How would that work?
00:49:56And, uh, you know, along with that, how do you make sure that pitchers don't get hurt?
00:50:03Well, first and foremost, nobody's addressing it because they know they can't fix it and they're
00:50:07not concerned with it. It's a shame I can go on. We could have a two hour podcast on this.
00:50:12I've been
00:50:12saying it for 10 years. I'm not a six inning guy advocate. What I would be an advocate is
00:50:17philosophically changing the rules to make a team think about how they're asking pitchers to pitch
00:50:22one way to do it. I said this four years ago was tie tie the starting pitcher to your DH.
00:50:28That's the
00:50:28easiest way to have a decision with an organization say, Nope, I'm going to run it the same way. And
00:50:33I'll just deal with pinch hits. So you're thinking about the competitive advantage that you would have
00:50:37if your starter stayed in longer, you've got to be able to, they're not breaking rules right now,
00:50:42but what they're doing is breaking every pitcher and they're allowed to break every pitcher because
00:50:47of the system of call-ups and, and, and all the ability to come up and down in the minor
00:50:52leagues.
00:50:52You got to have options to be a big leaguer today. If you don't have options, you don't make a
00:50:56team.
00:50:57The insanity of thinking this is going to self-correct is insane. It's just repeating the
00:51:02same thing over and over again, expecting different results. So once baseball gets through this labor
00:51:07agreement, I fully expect there's going to be some pitching rule changes that will come down with
00:51:12either roster limits, or like I said, something like that. There's no such thing as a bad rule
00:51:16change anymore. When you think about the rule changes of baseball three years ago, everyone
00:51:21was like, this is the worst thing that's ever happened. Now it's the best. It happens in every
00:51:25sport. It will happen again. We'll get through it. And teams will decide that I don't want my guy to
00:51:31max effort every time we're in an addiction society. If you continue to be addicted to outcomes of
00:51:36velocity and spin, that's what you're going to look for. My greatest example, and I've been saying it for
00:51:41years is Bryce Elder with the Atlanta Braves. He finally has given a chance to pitch. He's a
00:51:46pitcher. He's not a thrower. He's never been able to be consistently given the ball every five days
00:51:52because they're looking for somebody different. When they have no options, what do they do? They
00:51:56turn to this guy who they bounced around back and forth. We don't look for that guy anymore. I'm not
00:52:01saying they need five of them on every staff, but if you don't look at health as a competitive
00:52:05advantage in our industry, we've lost. If you don't wake up in the morning and put on, took on, look
00:52:10on your devices and go, who am I going to go watch today? Because the attraction of starting pitching
00:52:15has been diminished. We've lost. Football got it right. They made changes to keep their quarterbacks
00:52:21upright, no matter how bad it looked upon the industry. But if they lost their quarterbacks, they
00:52:26lost their market and they lost their NFL. So I hope we get a chance to look at this in
00:52:32a different
00:52:32way because we've done the studies. We've heard from doctors. We've heard from former players.
00:52:36What has been done? Nothing. And the narrative of Paul Schemes, who's the last remaining guy,
00:52:42is not, oh my gosh, how great is he? When is he going to get his Tommy John? We have
00:52:47to change that
00:52:48narrative in baseball. You know, John, you might have answered what I was going to do as a wrap-up
00:52:52question because, again, John and I were very lucky to work with you here. We've gotten to know you
00:52:57over the years and we know how passionate you are and thoughtful about the game. I was going to ask
00:53:02if I was a commissioner for a day and they had to do whatever you said, what would you do?
00:53:08I'm
00:53:08assuming it would be this. If not, is there something else that you would change about this
00:53:13game? I would like to see the run of what clubs are going to do tying it to their DH.
00:53:18You know,
00:53:18I've never sat on a broadcast opener because there's no such thing. But then you'd never have
00:53:22this guy that starts for one inning and then the rest of the guys come in because now you have
00:53:27no DH,
00:53:27pitch, right? The question is, and the unfortunate thing is you got the Otani rule, which a lot of
00:53:32people think is not exactly fair, but we got a generational player and you're going to have to
00:53:37deal with it. Look for the next one. But that's what I would do. And I would actually roster limit
00:53:41the ability to stack your team with 14 pitchers. If you look all the way back, and here's what I
00:53:47don't understand. As smart as we are as an industry, and I'm not saying we're not, they have no ability
00:53:53to
00:53:53help a pitcher get any better. They only know how to quantify them. And so we de-develop greatness by
00:53:58putting guys in the big leagues sooner than they can because they have to. You don't develop anybody
00:54:03in the minor leagues. And why don't we have a three-inning pitcher in every bullpen? I don't
00:54:07understand why we can't have a guy that pitches three innings instead of five guys every day that
00:54:11pitch one inning. And so the makeup of a club is conducive to the way they're running the game.
00:54:17So if you only have the ability to have, let's just say crazily, six relievers, which is perfectly
00:54:22fine for a team, are you not going to structure your team and ask your starters to do things
00:54:27differently because you only have six relievers? Or if you just couldn't have the elevator system
00:54:32back and forth. So there are ways through roster manipulation to change the philosophy of what
00:54:37you're asking these guys to do, which is a broken philosophy. They know it. When analytics started 10
00:54:43years ago, they said this tagline, I remember it like it was yesterday because you know whose office I
00:54:47used to sit next to and we would have daily conversations with Mr. Brian Kenny. And it was
00:54:53like, we're going to put players in a position to be successful with this information. Check. You can
00:54:59argue that that was a check. We're also going to put players in a position to be healthier. We're going
00:55:04to keep them on the field. Wrong. That's that. They don't even address it anymore. So they bypassed that
00:55:12and they've just gotten with the information to quantify a player. When it started out, it was to
00:55:17quantify how good you are. Then it morphed in to show you what you're not. And it was used against
00:55:21you. So there's all this information that's great, but we still haven't gotten to a place where we can
00:55:27keep those guys on the field. That's a problem in an era where we got more technology, more information.
00:55:33The players look better than they've ever looked, but there's a biomechanical flaw, a genetic code that,
00:55:41this is what I'll end up in your generation of covering baseball, go back as far as you can go.
00:55:48And there was always one or two freaks. There was the Nolan Ryan, maybe the J.R. Richard,
00:55:54maybe the Randy Johnson, but not a lot of them. They were freaks. Today, we are manufacturing 30
00:56:01freaks. You can make an argument that there are 30 Nolan Ryans and it's not, it's not genetically
00:56:08possible. It's not normal. And yet that's what we have. And that's why every single guy is breaking
00:56:14down. Well, of course we knew you'd have passion on that subject. It's always interesting, John,
00:56:21mainly though, of course, we wanted to have you on to talk about Bobby and we appreciate you
00:56:25doing it so much and understanding what he meant to you, offering our condolences as well. It was a big
00:56:32loss for baseball. And we know for the group of guys who played with the Braves for quite a while,
00:56:37what the impact was as well. And so I can't tell you how much I appreciate John and I appreciate
00:56:41you coming and joining us on the show. I appreciate it. And I'll never forget what he used to tell
00:56:47me.
00:56:47And this is the, this is the, he would put his arm around me. I'd go, you know, he'd know
00:56:52I was
00:56:52battling and I was beat up and he goes, John, I'll take 70% of you. Then a hundred percent
00:56:57of the next
00:56:58guy that's coming in. And he gave me that confidence that when I went out to the mound,
00:57:01knowing I was getting criticized because I wasn't doing X, Y, Z, but I was giving up the effort,
00:57:06whatever that was, because I pitched at 88 miles an hour as a fastball and 98 miles an hour
00:57:12and everything in between. And that just was the generation we were in. So he was a father,
00:57:17a grandfather, a mentor and a sorely. Yes, he's going to be missed.
00:57:23Thanks again, John.
00:57:24Yeah.
00:57:30John and I, of course, thank John Smoltz for coming on. It's such a, uh, uh, um, emotional time
00:57:37for him and so many members of the baseball community, but especially the brave community,
00:57:41uh, John hit or error. I'm going to give a hit for the Mets. Heaven knows they need hits. Uh,
00:57:47I,
00:57:47they, I mean, they, they had to call up AJ Ewing. I know it's a panic move. I know it's
00:57:52desperation,
00:57:52but Hey, look, they know what the kind of situation they're in now. They're in a desperation
00:57:56situation. It is the time to panic. They're calling up a guy who's stolen 70 bases in a year,
00:58:02a guy who's doing well at AAA. I know he's been there very long, but, uh, we've heard only great
00:58:07things about him. I don't think he's going to be, uh, emotionally affected by this and, uh, they might
00:58:12as well give it a shot because there aren't many alternatives. It's hard to trade for somebody,
00:58:17uh, great at this point. I know that the Cleveland just traded for Patrick Bailey. Everybody loves the
00:58:21name, a great defensive catcher. He's got a, an OPS of about three 90. So that's the kind of player
00:58:27who's likely going to be traded now. So, uh, this is the best they're going to do. And I applaud
00:58:32them
00:58:33for doing what they absolutely needed to do and calling up AJ Ewing. You know, John, I went to try
00:58:38to find a time in this like 30 year period with the Yankees where they might've been in something
00:58:43similar. And they were in 2005, they were like nine games under early in May. And that was,
00:58:49if you remember Cashman, they had just lost after having a three, nothing lead in the ALCS,
00:58:54uh, and they had been chasing more championships and giving up farm system, excuse me. And, um,
00:59:02uh, Cashman said, I'm not trading the best of the farm system, which was like Phil Hughes or anything.
00:59:06We better figure this out internally. And in early May called up Chin Ming Wong and Robinson Cano who
00:59:12were on nobody's top hundred prospect list. And those two guys played great for them. And the Yankees
00:59:16won the division again, uh, like their seventh or eighth in a row, uh, where, where they stormed
00:59:21back and won the division. They, Aaron small pitch great for them that year. They made a small trade
00:59:26for Sean Chacon. He pitched. And I feel like the Mets are in that situation. They need some stuff
00:59:30internally to work out. And if there's a, uh, uh, a comparison are Ewing and Christian Scott kind of
00:59:40that, like, cause I really do, as I mentioned earlier, feel that Scott has a chance to stabilize the
00:59:45rotation and Ewing might have a chance to be a spark plug at a time where they really need a
00:59:49spark,
00:59:50where they need something positive to go on. So I'm, I'm with you. I had to move. It's both feels
00:59:55desperate and panicky and yet the right thing to do. Uh, John, I'm going to give, I think it would
01:00:01be a hit to the San Diego Padres because I can't figure out exactly how they're eight games over 500.
01:00:07Uh, as we're sitting here, they have only the Mets have a worse OPS plus than them.
01:00:12They're 20th in average runs scored. They're 16th in team ERA, which includes 21st and starter ERA.
01:00:19They're 20th in defensive efficiency. Uh, they, they, they not doing a lot well. And it just goes
01:00:25to, to say, I don't know if people will consider Mason Miller for, uh, the Cy Young, but maybe he
01:00:32should be the MVP because they're, they're eight games, it's over 500. And one of the things that
01:00:36has to happen is when they have a chance to win, they need to win. They're in first place in
01:00:41that
01:00:41division over the Dodgers as we're speaking. And again, they do not have the numbers of a first
01:00:46place team. They hit well with runners in scoring position. So they've gotten some good stuff late in
01:00:50the games from some players, but like all their stars, Machado and Tatis, uh, they're, they're not
01:00:57playing well and they're eight games over 500. And I think the biggest reason is Mason Miller.
01:01:02It feels very MVP. And I know we never think of that anymore for, for, uh, for a relief pitcher.
01:01:09Yeah. Throw Merrill in that basket too, with, uh, Machado, right. And, uh, uh, and Tatis, it's,
01:01:15it's really unbelievable that they're in first place as we do this ahead of the Dodgers with all
01:01:20their star players, not playing well, they're starting rotation in flux or worse at this point,
01:01:27they got a lot of issues. We don't even know what's really wrong with Pavetta and Musgrove and
01:01:32you've got Darvish. They got all these guys who aren't able to pitch for them who are really good.
01:01:37It's pretty amazing. Uh, yeah. I mean, he's Mason Miller is a candidate as you were starting to do
01:01:41that. I was thinking that's what I was going to say. Maybe Mason Miller is the MVP, but then you
01:01:45got
01:01:45to it. Uh, I mean, at this point, I think we had a vote, Matt Olson would be the MVP,
01:01:50but, uh, I'm with
01:01:51you. Mason Miller is certainly a candidate and, uh, I wouldn't be opposed to picking him as the
01:01:57as the 40 game MVP. Let's see if we can do it over 160 games, but we've had MVPs from
01:02:03the relief
01:02:04core, but many, many, many years. Right. It's been a long time before we had war and all this that
01:02:09kind of eliminates, uh, the thought of them being MVP. Yeah. But if you think about like winning is
01:02:16really what matters the most, then here we have a teammate games over 500 that does so little well.
01:02:21Like to me, the value of the player is extreme. The value of our MVP, Tommy Hogan, always extreme
01:02:28as well. Got Tommy up nice and early today. Uh, so we, John and I appreciate that. Uh, Apple,
01:02:35Spotify, wherever you, uh, listen to podcasts, please rate and review us. Uh, uh, um, the New York
01:02:41post, uh, sports YouTube page, give us a view and please continue to watch us and listen to us on
01:02:47the show with Joel Sherman and John Heyman.
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