00:07Welcome to the program, I'm Stefan Grobe.
00:10My guest today is the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Foreign Trade of North Macedonia,
00:15Timcio Musunski, who is in Brussels for an informal meeting with his EU counterparts
00:20to discuss the bloc's relations with the Western Balkans.
00:23Thank you for coming on the show, Minister.
00:25Thank you so much for the invitation and for helping us raise awareness
00:29of why the Western Balkans is important to not only the European Union,
00:32but to the citizens of the European Union.
00:34My pleasure.
00:36Now, North Macedonia changed its name to unlock EU accession talks,
00:42yet membership still feels distant.
00:45Do many citizens now feel the EU broke its promises?
00:50So, what is a very stark reminder is that our country received candidate status
00:55together with Croatia in 2005.
00:57It has been over 21 years since that moment.
01:01We received the first recommendation for opening accession negotiations in 2009,
01:06yet still we haven't opened accession negotiations.
01:09Now, throughout all of these struggles,
01:14throughout the very difficult decisions that have been made within our country,
01:20what one can first conclude is that,
01:22and many here would be very surprised at this,
01:25that there is still a huge support for the EU path in our country.
01:29Over 70% of our citizens support EU membership and support the EU accession process,
01:36with the caveat being that many of these citizens who are pro-EU,
01:41both in values and faith and so forth,
01:44don't believe that the door will actually open.
01:47And this is where we need, together with the member states, together with the European Union,
01:52to prove that this is not the fact.
01:54There have been countless constitutional changes,
01:57mostly related to identity issues,
01:59and still we haven't had the right to open accession negotiations.
02:03Do you still believe that the whole enlargement process is merit-based or purely political?
02:09So, first of all, one of the things that we have to agree on is that
02:14Europe cannot afford strategic ambiguity in the Western Balkans anymore.
02:19Until very recently, I think it was perceived that the process of European enlargement
02:26was a process where the ball was only in the court of the candidate countries.
02:30But this is not, you know, it's not a solo match.
02:33It's a process that requires fairness, it requires predictability,
02:37but it also requires political courage coming from both sides.
02:41Because it is not just about connectivity, it is not just about trade and economy,
02:45but what we have now realized is that enlargement towards the Western Balkans
02:49is also an issue of strategic imperative.
02:52Do you believe that there are some EU countries, existing members,
02:57who simply do not want the Western Balkans in the EU,
03:01no matter what the reform process is achieving?
03:06This is a very difficult question to answer.
03:08I think strategically there is a very broad consensus among EU member states
03:14that enlargement towards the Western Balkans has to happen.
03:16There are countries that are principled supporters, that practice what they preach,
03:21and there are only those, there are some countries who only say the right things
03:25but don't follow up enough.
03:27And this is where we need maybe a stronger consensus.
03:31But what I can say is that on our part, we will do our side of the obligation,
03:36and that is delivering on reforms.
03:38We are one of the three countries, together with Montenegro and Albania,
03:41that are delivering on the reform agenda,
03:43which is very concrete and solid proof that internally we are moving forward
03:47when it comes to EU-related reforms.
03:50And we are also a country that is 100% aligned with the European Union's
03:54common foreign and security policy, the CFSP.
03:57And even going beyond that, we have a security and defense partnership
04:00with the European Union.
04:01Now, how damaging is the ongoing dispute with Bulgaria
04:04over language and history to your country's accession bit?
04:10Is it the main roadblock on the path to the EU?
04:15Sadly, yes.
04:17And at the loss of both our country, but the loss of Bulgaria,
04:21the loss of the whole region.
04:23What I think that Bulgaria must do is that it must recognize
04:27the strategic moment while it still exists.
04:30And I think, and I hope that Bulgaria will recognize
04:34the possibilities that exist, that it will open dialogue with us.
04:38Is there a red line for North Macedonia?
04:42A moment when you say, no more delays, no more concessions?
04:45First of all, like I said, we will continue to do everything
04:49that is necessary on our European path to be the best candidate possible.
04:53But on the other hand, we are not prepared to negotiate
04:57on issues that are related to our national identity,
05:01our national history, and our language.
05:05Sadly, the narrative that has been created and pushed forward from Sofia,
05:09these are debates for historians, these are debates for academics.
05:13Let them discuss and let them speak on the basis of objective facts.
05:18The role of politicians and leaders should be to be forward-looking,
05:22to be speaking about issues that unite us.
05:24So if you're asking us, do we have red lines?
05:27Of course we do, because we do not believe that this is a narrative
05:30and a debate that should be ongoing in 21st century Europe.
05:34If EU accession keeps stalling, do you fear that North Macedonia
05:39would drift towards the orbit of countries like Russia, China, Turkey?
05:46What is a fact is that hybrid threats thrive where frustration grows
05:53and where trust arose.
05:55This is a fact.
05:57What is also a fact is that there is a severe amount of malign influence
06:01in our entire region coming not just from Russia, but also from China as well.
06:07This is a reality that we all have to face and we all have to live with.
06:11But what I can tell you is that we are a country that is westward-looking.
06:15We are a country that is proud to be a member of NATO,
06:18whose troops contribute in NATO missions from the Baltics to the Balkans.
06:23We are a country that prides itself in being pro-European,
06:28not just in rhetoric, but in the values that we implement within our society.
06:33So while the threat does exist, what I can tell you is that as a country,
06:38we have proven not only to say that we are resilient, but to be resilient in practice.
06:43Imagine a country that for over 20 years has been forced to do many things
06:49for the promise of a European future, from constitutional changes several times
06:54to even the change of the name, as you said,
06:57and has not received delivery from European institutions,
07:01but has still remained extremely pro-European.
07:05On NATO, North Macedonia has been a member since 2020.
07:10Now, has the membership delivered the benefits, security and political benefits people expected?
07:20So, NATO is without a doubt the strongest collective security community
07:26that civilization has known and will probably know.
07:29And in that sense, what it has provided for our country is much-needed stability
07:35in a region that is extremely volatile.
07:38And we are now, in the past several years, a security provider from the region.
07:43And you see that through our presence in the EU-led Althea mission in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
07:47our role in the KFOR mission in Kosovo.
07:50And in that sense, we are also a very committed ally.
07:55We are a country that is moving in its defense expenditures.
07:59If you ask me the fundamental question of,
08:01is NATO membership positive for the future of the country,
08:06for creating a good investment climate, but also a clearer strategic outlook,
08:11without a doubt, my answer will be.
08:12How do you see the current discussion about the future of NATO
08:15with America threatening to withdraw, etc., etc.?
08:18What does that inspire in you?
08:20My view is that, thanks to President Trump, Secretary Rubio,
08:24and the entire foreign policy apparatus of the United States,
08:27NATO is stronger than it has ever been.
08:29This is undeniable coming out of last year's summit in The Hague.
08:33We now have, in about a month or so, another summit in Ankara,
08:37where we are due to take stock of what we've achieved in the last year.
08:41But through U.S. leadership, NATO received a wake-up call.
08:44We have all committed to 5% by 2035,
08:48which is a very ambitious agenda, but also a very necessary agenda,
08:53considering not only the threat that we have
08:55from the Russian aggression against Ukraine, which is still ongoing,
08:58but threats in the Indo-Pacific, threats in the Middle East.
09:02So in that sense, if you ask me, NATO is stronger than it's ever been.
09:07There will be disagreements between member states,
09:09as there have been in the past.
09:12But if you look at the fundaments,
09:15following The Hague Summit, through U.S. leadership,
09:18we are at a point where the alliance is stronger than it's ever been.
09:22North Macedonia has recently signed a trade agreement with the United States
09:25that eliminates all customs duties on U.S. industrial and agricultural products.
09:33How is that playing out for the Macedonian, North Macedonian economy?
09:37So, the United States is an important trading partner,
09:41with, of course, the European Union and its member states being our key trading partner.
09:46We aim to stimulate good economic and trade relationships with the United States
09:52because the United States is one of our strategic partners.
09:55We believe that the joint statement, which will soon lead to a trade agreement,
10:00is beneficial for both sides.
10:04We have seen movement in the trade portfolio between the two countries in a positive momentum.
10:10Your close ties to the United States,
10:13could those be a bridge between Brussels and Washington?
10:18Do you envision that role in the future?
10:21So, we are a government that aims to do all that it can
10:27to move forward its nation in the interests of its citizens.
10:32And that is why I like to point out in many of my interviews
10:35that our foreign policy is built on three key fundamental pillars.
10:39And that is our path towards EU membership and our alignment with the CFSP,
10:45our strategic partnership with the United States,
10:48and being a responsible ally in NATO.
10:51And it is not always easy to manage these three key constants
10:56in a world which, as we agreed previously, is very volatile.
11:00But if necessary, we are always prepared to help move forward
11:07any process in relation to when it is connected to any key relationship that we have,
11:14whether it is with the European Union, its member states,
11:18and our key strategic ally in Washington.
11:21We are a small country.
11:23Although what we have come to understand is that in this world,
11:28we are also a country that carries properly its own weight,
11:32no matter how small sometimes that weight may seem,
11:35whether it is from a military or economic perspective.
11:38And sometimes small nations can provide necessary impetus
11:42when necessary in various different constellations.
11:46All right. Wonderful conclusion.
11:48Kim Chiu-Mutsunski, the foreign minister of North Macedonia.
11:51Thank you so much for your time.
11:53Thank you so much for the privilege of this interview.
11:56Thank you so much for your time.
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