00:07Hello and welcome to the program. I'm Stefan Grobe. My guest today is the Minister of Foreign
00:12Affairs and Foreign Trade of North Macedonia, Timcho Musunski, who is in Brussels for an
00:18informal meeting with his EU counterparts to discuss the bloc's relations with the
00:22Western Balkans. Thank you for coming on the show, Minister. Thank you so much for the
00:26invitation and for helping us raise awareness of why the Western Balkans is important to not only
00:31the European Union but to the citizens of the European Union. My pleasure. Now, North Macedonia
00:37changed its name to unlock EU accession talks, yet membership still feels distant. Do many citizens
00:47now feel the EU broke its promises? So what is a very stark reminder is that our country received
00:54candidate status together with Croatia in 2005. It has been over 21 years since that moment.
01:01We received the first recommendation for opening accession negotiations in 2009, yet still we haven't
01:07opened accession negotiations. Now, throughout all of these struggles, throughout the very difficult
01:15decisions that have been made within our country, what one can first conclude is that, and many here
01:23would be very surprised at, is that there is still a huge support for the EU path in our country.
01:29Over 70% of our citizens support EU membership and support the EU accession process, with the caveat being that
01:38many of these citizens, who are pro-EU, both in values and faith and so forth, don't believe that the
01:46door will actually open.
01:47And this is where we need, together with the member states, together with the European Union, to prove that this
01:53is not the fact. There have been countless constitutional changes, mostly related to identity issues, and still we haven't had
02:01the right to open accession negotiations.
02:03You still believe that the whole enlargement process is merit-based or purely political?
02:09So, first of all, one of the things that we have to agree on is that Europe cannot afford strategic
02:16ambiguity in the Western Balkans anymore.
02:19Until very recently, I think it was perceived that the process of European enlargement was a process where the ball
02:28was only in the court of the candidate countries.
02:30But this is not, you know, it's not a solo match. It's a process that requires fairness, it requires predictability,
02:37but it also requires political courage coming from both sides.
02:41Because it is not just about connectivity, it is not just about trade and economy, but what we have now
02:46realized is that enlargement towards the Western Balkans is also an issue of strategic imperative.
02:52Do you believe that there are some EU countries, existing members, who simply do not want the Western Balkans in
03:00the EU, no matter what the reform process is achieving?
03:06This is a very difficult question to answer. I think strategically there is a very broad consensus among EU member
03:13states that enlargement towards the Western Balkans has to happen.
03:16There are countries that are principled supporters that practice what they preach. And there are only those, there are some
03:24countries who only say the right things, but don't follow up enough.
03:27And this is where we need maybe a stronger consensus. But what I can say is that on our part,
03:34we will do our side of the obligation, and that is delivering on reforms.
03:38We are one of the three countries, together with Montenegro and Albania, that are delivering on the reform agenda, which
03:43is very concrete and solid proof that internally we are moving forward when it comes to EU-related reforms.
03:50And we are also a country that is 100% aligned with the European Union's common foreign and security policy,
03:56the CFSP. And even going beyond that, we have security and defense partnership with the European Union.
04:01Now, how damaging is the ongoing dispute with Bulgaria over language and history to your country's accession bit? Is it
04:10the main roadblock on the path to the EU?
04:15Sadly, yes. And at the loss of both our country, but the loss of Bulgaria, the loss of the whole
04:22region. What I think that Bulgaria must do is that it must recognize the strategic moment while it still exists.
04:30And I think and I hope that Bulgaria will recognize the possibilities that exist, that it will open dialogue with
04:38us.
04:39Is there a red line for Macedonia? A moment when you say no more delays, no more concessions?
04:45First of all, like I said, we will continue to do everything that is necessary on our European path to
04:51be the best candidate possible.
04:53But on the other hand, we are not prepared to negotiate on issues that are related to our national identity,
05:01our national history and our language.
05:04Sadly, the narrative that has been created and pushed forward from Sofia, these are debates for historians, these are debates
05:12for academics.
05:14Let them discuss and let them speak on the basis of objective facts.
05:18The role of politicians and leaders should be to be forward looking, to be speaking about issues that unite us.
05:24So if you're asking us, do we have red lines? Of course we do, because we do not believe that
05:29this is a narrative and a debate that should be ongoing in 21st century Europe.
05:34If EU accession keeps stalling, do you fear that North Macedonia would drift towards the orbit of countries like Russia,
05:45China, Turkey?
05:46What is a fact is that hybrid threats thrive where frustration grows and where trust arose. This is a fact.
05:57What is also a fact is that there is a severe amount of malign influence in our entire region coming
06:04not just from Russia, but also from China as well.
06:07This is a reality that we all have to face and we all have to live with.
06:11But what I can tell you is that we are a country that is westward looking.
06:15We are a country that is proud to be a member of NATO, whose troops contribute in NATO missions from
06:21the Baltics to the Balkans.
06:23We are a country that prides itself in being pro-European, not just in rhetoric, but in the values that
06:31we implement within our society.
06:33So while the threat does exist, what I can tell you is that as a country we have proven not
06:39only to say that we are resilient, but to be resilient in practice.
06:43Imagine a country that for over 20 years has been forced to do many things for the promise of a
06:51European future, from constitutional changes several times to even the change of the name, as you said, and has not
06:58received delivery from European institutions, but has still remained extremely pro-European.
07:05On NATO, North Macedonia has been a member since 2020. Now, has the membership delivered the benefits, security and political
07:17benefits people expected?
07:20So, NATO is without a doubt the strongest collective security community that civilization has known and will probably know.
07:30And in that sense, what it has provided for our country is much needed stability in a region that is
07:37extremely volatile.
07:38And we are now, in the past several years, a security provider from the region.
07:43And you see that through our presence in the EU-led Althea mission in Bosnia and Herzegovina, our role in
07:48the KFOR mission in Kosovo.
07:50And in that sense, we are also a very committed ally. We are a country that is moving in its
07:58defense expenditures.
07:59If you ask me the fundamental question of, is NATO membership positive for the future of the country, for creating
08:07a good investment climate, but also a clearer strategic outlook?
08:11Without a doubt, my answer will please.
08:12How do you see the current discussion about the future of NATO with America threatening to withdraw, etc., etc.?
08:18What does that inspire in you?
08:20My view is that, thanks to President Trump, Secretary Rubio, and the entire foreign policy apparatus of the United States,
08:27NATO is stronger than it has ever been.
08:29This is undeniable coming out of last year's summit in The Hague.
08:33We now have, in about a month or so, another summit in Ankara where we are due to take stock
08:38of what we've achieved in the last year.
08:41But through U.S. leadership, NATO received a wake-up call.
08:44We have all committed to 5% by 2035, which is a very ambitious agenda, but also a very necessary
08:52agenda, considering not only the threat that we have from the Russian aggression against Ukraine, which is still ongoing, but
08:58threats in the Indo-Pacific, threats in the Middle East.
09:02So, in that sense, if you ask me, NATO is stronger than it's ever been.
09:07There will be disagreements between member states, as there have been in the past.
09:12But if you look at the fundaments, following the Hague summit, through U.S. leadership, we are at a point
09:19where the alliance is stronger than it's ever been.
09:22North Macedonia has recently signed a trade agreement with the United States that eliminates all customs duties on U.S.
09:30industrial and agricultural products.
09:33How is that playing out for the Macedonian, North Macedonian economy?
09:37So, the United States is an important trading partner, with, of course, the European Union and its member states being
09:44our key trading partner.
09:46We aim to stimulate good economic and trade relationships with the United States, because the United States is one of
09:53our strategic partners.
09:55We believe that the joint statement, which will soon lead to a trade agreement, is beneficial for both sides.
10:04We have seen movement in the trade portfolio between the two countries in a positive momentum.
10:10Your close ties to the United States, could those be a bridge between Brussels and Washington?
10:18And do you envision that role in the future?
10:21So, we are a government that aims to do all that it can to move forward its nation in the
10:30interest of its citizens.
10:32And that is why I like to point out in many of my interviews that our foreign policy is built
10:37on three key fundamental pillars.
10:39And that is our path towards EU membership and our alignment with the CFSP, our strategic partnership with the United
10:47States and being a responsible ally in NATO.
10:51And it is not always easy to manage these three key constants in a world which, as we agreed previously,
10:59is very volatile.
11:00But if necessary, we are always prepared to help move forward any process in relation to when it is connected
11:12to any key relationship that we have,
11:14whether it is with the European Union, its member states and our key strategic ally in Washington.
11:21We are a small country, although what we have come to understand is that in this world we are also
11:29a country that carries properly its own weight,
11:32no matter how small sometimes that weight may seem, whether it is from a military or economic perspective.
11:38And sometimes small nations can provide necessary impetus when necessary in various different constellations.
11:46All right. Wonderful conclusion. Kim Chiu-Mutsunski, the Foreign Minister of North Macedonia.
11:51Thank you so much for your time.
11:53Thank you so much for the privilege of this interview.
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