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Endometriosis affects millions during their reproductive years, yet many are still told it’s “just bad period pain.” Obstetrician and gynaecologist Dr Hannah Nazri and MyEndosis President Dr Surita Mogan unpack the dismissal and why it’s time to finally put women's health at the forefront.
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NewsTranscript
00:07Hello and welcome to It's About Youth with me, Fei Kuan.
00:11Now, March is Endometriosis Awareness Month, but for many women, it's a condition that they live with every single day.
00:18It's a chronic and at times debilitating disease where tissue, similar to the lining of the uterus, grows outside of
00:26the uterus
00:26and it affects millions in their reproductive years.
00:30And despite this, it remains widely misunderstood or under-recognized.
00:35Today on It's About Youth, we look at what needs to change to go beyond just awareness on endometriosis.
00:41And joining me in the studio are two experts on this.
00:44I have with me Dr. Hana Nazri, an obstetrics and gynecologist doctor, as well as Dr. Surita Mogan,
00:52founder and president of Endometriosis Association of Malaysia.
00:56Welcome to both of you.
00:57Thank you so much.
00:58Thank you for joining me in the studio today.
01:01Now, we hear a lot that endometriosis affects one in ten women, but Dr. Hana, awareness still remains low despite
01:11how common this disease is.
01:13In Malaysia today, though, if we were looking beyond that statistic, what would you say that gap actually looks like
01:18in our clinics and hospitals?
01:20Well, actually, the one in ten statistics is a global statistic.
01:24It's not based on our own Malaysian data.
01:27It's based on Western cohorts across the world.
01:30So, that in itself is a gap.
01:33So, we don't really understand what's happening on the ground because we don't actually have the data.
01:37So, but what I can say is speaking to patients, they are regularly being dismissed, not just by doctors, but
01:44by families, by friends, by society, employers in general.
01:47And also, they will be misdiagnosed when they see doctors being told to take pain killers over a couple of
01:55years without actually getting the proper intervention for endometriosis.
01:58But awareness is increasing and clinicians are getting more aware of endometriosis and are offering treatments.
02:06But I would say diagnostic and treatments for endometriosis is not universally available across our society.
02:13So, it depends on the awareness of the women themselves to go and seek for help.
02:18But then again, as I've mentioned, like not all doctors are trained to look into endometriosis in a comprehensive manner.
02:26Yeah. Seeking support on the patient's side is the first step.
02:29And then the doctor's ability to recognize the condition and to not just dismiss it as bad period pain is
02:35the other part.
02:36Dr. Sritab, from your work then with my endometriosis, just to give a little bit more, to understand the scale
02:43of this, right?
02:44How would you say how underreported is this condition locally?
02:48And, you know, in your opinion, why do you think it remains so invisible in a country with relatively strong
02:55healthcare access?
02:56Okay. Of course, from what we see at my endometriosis, endometriosis remains underreported in Malaysia, definitely.
03:06It's not because women are not experiencing it.
03:09It's because many of them still don't know whether they need to seek intervention, you know.
03:15So because we all are used to or accustomed to accepting that period pain should be tolerated, you know, and
03:23of course our community itself, we were told repeatedly that this is part of being a woman, you know, or
03:29part of being a girl, you know.
03:30So that is why it remains invisible and like what Dr. Hannah mentioned just now, there are gaps, okay.
03:37The gaps would be, even with accessible healthcare, the gaps would be awareness gap, communication gap.
03:46Now, why did I say communication gap?
03:48A lot of patients, when they do seek help from their healthcare professionals, how do they communicate their pain, you
03:56know, and you must remember menstruation is cyclical, so you won't remember your pain.
04:01So at times, they wish that their doctors would ask them the right question, you see.
04:05So, that is why it's dismissed.
04:08And the other problem is clinical suspicion, you know, so that's what I want to name, all right.
04:13I want to call out, all right.
04:15So basically, it's not easily noticed through abdominal ultrasound scan.
04:22So we do have a lot of patients who went to see their healthcare professionals and they were dismissed and
04:30sometimes misdiagnosed.
04:33The common thing that cropped up every time is irritable bowel syndrome.
04:38I was diagnosed with irritable bowel syndrome a long, long time ago, but actually I don't have it, you know,
04:45I have endometriosis.
04:45So this is why it's a problem.
04:48There's this clinical suspicion and we need to address that as well, you know.
04:52So we have all these problems that actually created this environment where it's still an invisible illness.
05:02If we don't address this, it doesn't matter, you know.
05:06It will be years and years of diagnostic delay, you know, and it's still the same.
05:10I was diagnosed in the year 2001, nine years from the onset of my symptom.
05:16It's still happening now, you know, so that's really unacceptable.
05:20Well, thank you for bringing your personal experience into this and really highlighting both societal, cultural barriers
05:26and then overlaps and misdiagnosis with other conditions.
05:31And you're talking about how you yourself took nine years before you were properly diagnosed.
05:36Globally, we hear about this 7 to 11 year delay when it comes to diagnosis.
05:42In Malaysia then, you've talked about how it's difficult for patients to firstly seek help and then get that diagnosis.
05:50But could you give a little bit more of a walkthrough of what they typically go through before finally getting
05:54the right answer?
05:55Okay, so our journey is usually very long and painful, you know.
06:01And you must understand that endometriosis is a chronic condition.
06:04It's not just a one-time treatment, you know.
06:07It's not like you go and see your healthcare professionals and you get your answers and that's it, you know.
06:12So it's not, you know.
06:13There's no cure.
06:14So there's long-term management as well.
06:16So these women, they go through a lot of trial and error in terms of getting medication,
06:22the right medication that fits their body.
06:25And years of people who they have to convince that they have their pain.
06:31And they have to convince that their pain is real.
06:34So from the ground, we do see a lot of patients coming to us and, you know, they said it's
06:40really hard to convince people.
06:43And at times, it's hard to convince even doctors that their pain is real, you know.
06:48So, yeah.
06:49The gender pain gap.
06:50Correct.
06:51It's where, like, women's pain are being normalised.
06:53It's not just in endometriosis but towards society as well.
06:55If you present to the ER with abdominal pain, there's a study to show that women get more sedatives and
07:01men get more pain, proper pain relief.
07:04And this is because women are seen as hysterical.
07:06Correct.
07:07Yes.
07:07And I also want to draw you to this.
07:10This is another problem.
07:11Okay.
07:12So a lot of times, pregnancy is given as a solution.
07:15Some of these girls, they come in very young to see their healthcare professionals.
07:19And the doctors will say, you know, you need to get yourself pregnant.
07:23Or if you have a boyfriend or think about marriage, you know.
07:26So I think that's a dangerous approach.
07:29It's an approach pushing girls to see pregnancy and marriage as a solution for their medical condition.
07:35Yeah.
07:36And that needs to be addressed as well.
07:39So the journey is itself vague, you know.
07:44And all of us, we went through different stages.
07:47And, of course, the symptoms itself vary, you know.
07:50So there's a lot of work that needs to be done on addressing this diagnostic delay that you see all
07:57the time.
07:58And not just pressuring women then to start their own families.
08:02Because the solution or the natural solution or the treatment to this seems to be you either get pregnant or
08:08you wait for menopause.
08:09And then it could naturally clear.
08:12Hannah, what do you think?
08:14Where exactly is the breakdown when we talk about this delay in diagnosis?
08:18Is it, you know, primary care?
08:21Is it better awareness among our healthcare professionals and for patients?
08:25I think the breakdown clearly begins within society itself.
08:29Since the girl, since young, at a young age, we've been telling them this pain is normal.
08:35Everyone thinks it's normal.
08:36It's something that we have to tolerate when we have period pains.
08:38But then again, not many women have period pains.
08:41And they will actually dismiss those who have period pains.
08:45And this is obviously like an uncomfortable truth that we have in this society.
08:51We tend to dismiss women with pain.
08:53And you have to understand, like doctors, when they go to medical school, they're not different from any other people
08:58in society.
08:59They hear all of this socialization as well.
09:02So it is normalized throughout society.
09:04So before women actually attend or seek healthcare, they've already been told many, many years before that to accept this
09:10pain as being normal.
09:12So they themselves might be gaslighting themselves.
09:14Am I okay?
09:15Am I imagining this?
09:17Is this something real?
09:18So it takes quite courage to actually go out there and to try and convince other people when you have
09:26pain.
09:26When you yourself could be thinking that, is this pain real or not?
09:29Yes.
09:30Coming to that, I totally understand.
09:32So as a patient myself, we always have this self-doubt.
09:37And we have this guilt as well for not being normal, for not being able to conceive, for not being
09:44able to carry their baby full term.
09:46So we have all this.
09:48And of course, it's not easy.
09:50It's mentally exhausting.
09:52We're not addressing the psychological aspect as well.
09:56So it can be draining for these women.
09:58And don't forget, they have to still go out and work.
10:01Single income is no longer practical here.
10:04So with this, how can they actually manage?
10:08So that's what I'm trying to say.
10:11It's real.
10:12It's raw.
10:14It's unseen.
10:15And we need to address this.
10:16That's an interesting point you brought up about the psychological impacts.
10:20And I'd like to delve into that a little bit.
10:23But we're also seeing more diagnosis than among younger women with endometriosis.
10:28Would you say it's a real increase or are we just recognizing it earlier?
10:32I think it's really hard to say whether it's true rice or whether we're recognizing it earlier.
10:38But it is probably better recognition.
10:41Because girls nowadays are very aware of their own bodies.
10:44They understand their cycles better.
10:46They can Google.
10:47They speak about periods more openly.
10:48So they seek professional help a bit more earlier than we do since the last decade.
10:54And also healthcare professionals are becoming more aware of endometriosis.
10:58So they would talk to their patients about endometriosis and more about menstrual health.
11:03So there is an increasing awareness on both sides.
11:06And not perfectly done can be a lot better.
11:08But there's definitely increasing awareness.
11:12And I suppose that shifting mindset, right?
11:14That period pains, at least growing up for me, the treatment to it is just, oh, take painkillers.
11:20Take Panadol.
11:20That's the pink Panadol.
11:22And, you know, just deal with it for the first two days and it gets better.
11:25And then you sort of repeat that cycle and it's exhausting.
11:28It takes you away from school, from work.
11:31But there is this thing.
11:33Once you are diagnosed, then cost, I think, is another unspoken barrier.
11:38Where, you know, Dr. Sreeta, you talked about long-term treatment.
11:41And this is lifelong.
11:44How accessible really is this long-term treatment in Malaysia?
11:47And does this create any sort of inequality in who gets care?
11:51Okay.
11:52I'm not going to sugarcoat on this, you know.
11:53Because cost is definitely a hidden barrier.
11:56All right, if you look at the public sector, you can see that if some patients,
12:02if they cannot afford private sector, they will go to public hospitals.
12:06And, of course, you need to understand there's long waiting lists,
12:10there's long waiting time, you know, and you don't know whether your problems will be addressed.
12:14Okay, so that's the public hospital.
12:17And then you have the private sector.
12:19Private sector, you will get the intervention early, all right.
12:22But we all know this is expensive, you know.
12:24So, sometimes we have to understand that not all of us are privileged to go into private sector.
12:33So, the problem here is we're not talking about the inequality in terms of addressing your health issues.
12:41So, the ones who can afford, they will get their intervention early, you know.
12:46And the ones who cannot afford, they will be probably roaming around,
12:50experimenting in different types of way and probably trying to self-medicate themselves, you know.
12:56And that's very dangerous, you know.
12:58That will cause more problem, I see.
13:01But also, like, if you get intervention, are you getting quality intervention?
13:05Correct, yes.
13:05Is this according to the guidelines that, which is internationally prescribed for endometriosis?
13:11Endometriosis, or is it some guidelines that you make yourself?
13:14Yeah.
13:16Okay.
13:17Yeah, that's the truth, you know.
13:19So, we have a long way to go, you know.
13:22And like what Dr. Hanna mentioned, okay, there is a guideline.
13:25There's a clinical guideline, the Azure guideline.
13:27I don't know whether healthcare professionals are using it correctly or they're following the guideline.
13:33And I can understand sometimes in hospitals, there's overcrowding.
13:37And, of course, doctors are seeing a lot of patients.
13:40I can understand that, all right.
13:41So, there is definitely a systemic problem in the ecosystem, in the medical facility, as well as the community, you
13:50know.
13:51These are things that we have to actually work together, you know, to solve.
13:55And will it be solved?
13:58You know, we will never know.
13:59But we will need to try.
14:00If we don't do it, who else will do it, you know.
14:03So, we have to actually break that cycle, of course, to reduce the diagnostic delay.
14:09Yeah, and you're talking about all these systemic barriers and how fragmented it all is for patients to seek proper
14:17access and treatment.
14:19I'm curious, though, because, or for both of your opinions, then, considering how Malaysia's birth rate is declining,
14:27currently at a historic low, and this link between endometriosis and infertility,
14:34why do you think it's not being treated as a national health priority?
14:38Is there some sort of bigger policy connection that we're missing here, Anna?
14:43So, I think when we talk about declining birth rates, of course, it's multifactorial.
14:49It's not just endometriosis is causing fertility issues.
14:52We know that.
14:53There's economic pressures and how women balance life and work as well, contributing to these declining birth rates.
15:00And when we talk about fertility, it's not just on the women.
15:03Actually, male factor infertility is a huge contributor.
15:05Thank you for pointing that out.
15:06About 30% to 50% of cases globally.
15:09So, actually, trying to address declining birth rates just solely through the lens of endometriosis and infertility would be inaccurate
15:17and incomplete.
15:18If we truly want to support women and families and solve this declining birth rate, we have to have policies
15:24that actually encompasses everything from school, from womb to tomb.
15:30So, from school, from work until menopause and not just have policies that focus on maternity care or paternity leave.
15:38We have to have education which is comprehensive, that teaches boys and girls on menstrual health, on gynecological issues, on
15:47fertility issues.
15:48Of course, it has to be age-appropriate.
15:50And we have to have work policies that respect women's fertility in the sense that some women may experience miscarriage.
15:57Some women may have endometriosis.
15:59Some women may have menopause.
16:00We have to have flexible working policies that is reflected across society, not just as a perk of working with
16:07certain companies.
16:08And we have to realise that this gender pain gap is an issue with our society that we need to
16:14address since from school, from young.
16:16Not just when you go to university, you start learning about gender issues, right?
16:21And we have to also understand, like, when it comes to presenting conditions like non-communicable diseases, women do present
16:28differently.
16:29So, actually, some of the things that I've mentioned has been covered in the National Women's Policy.
16:35And the National Women's Policy also included gender-based violence as one of the key health and women issues.
16:43But, of course, as a society, we mustn't view this as women issues because it has an impact through the
16:48individual, through the children, to families, and to society as a whole.
16:52But if we are not convinced by the moral issue of this, let me try and convince you from the
16:57economic point of view.
16:58So, for endometriosis itself, like internationally, it cost the society 9.9 billion euros in 2012 due to loss of
17:09productivity, due to medical expenses.
17:12And, of course, this is in 2012. Due to inflation rates will be higher.
17:16With similar demographics, I am pretty confident that the impact in Malaysia is equivalent and meaningful as well.
17:24And, Dr. Syarita, what do you think?
17:26Yeah, I totally concur.
17:27She said everything.
17:28So, yes, the reality is this, okay, and there are multi-angle approach to looking at fertility.
17:36And we shouldn't just put the pressure on females.
17:39And, of course, we know this.
17:41Some females choose to not get pregnant.
17:43And we have to respect that, you know.
17:44So, don't put a lot of pressure on females.
17:47And, of course, the reality is I've seen some patients, even endometriosis patients, who said, no, I'm not going to
17:52get pregnant.
17:53I think we need to look at fertility closely, the root problem, all right.
17:59It's not just health-related, male health-related as well.
18:04It's a lot more than that.
18:06We're talking about the cost of living.
18:08We're talking about childcare centers, you know, the legal ones and, you know, the ones that are inexpensive.
18:18And then, of course, we're talking about work balance as well, you know.
18:22So, there's a lot of problems that we're not addressing, and yet we're putting pressure on females to conceive, you
18:31know, and males to, you know.
18:32In this economic environment.
18:35It's terrible to do that.
18:36And, of course, we need to look at this angle as well.
18:40Some females choose not to get pregnant.
18:42And they don't want to be told that they need to get pregnant to solve their medical condition, you know.
18:47So, that's what I want to highlight.
18:48I mean, she did a fantastic job explaining everything, but this part here, it's very hidden, and nobody wants to
18:54talk about it.
18:55So, I'm addressing it here.
18:56So, the framework is there.
18:58The National Women's Policy Framework has outlined many of these things.
19:02The challenge is to make sure all the other policies from education, workplace, and healthcare delivery to actually reflect NWP.
19:10And to make sure it's properly operationalized on ground.
19:13And for this, we need buy-in from everyone in the society.
19:17From men, women, families, doctors, employees, everyone really.
19:21But, of course, we have to consider the other things as well.
19:24Yes.
19:25Inequity of access across society.
19:28Women who live in the PPR, are they able to get the same healthcare as someone who lives in Amansara?
19:32Yeah, correct.
19:33And I agree with her.
19:34You know, we're not teaching our girls in school.
19:37Yeah, we're teaching them menstrual hygiene.
19:39But are we teaching them menstrual pain?
19:41You know, are we teaching them that some pain is, you know, it's okay and some pain needs further intervention.
19:47You know, we're not doing that in school as well.
19:48You know, so, what's going on in school is affecting us.
19:51Because a lot of times, patients, when they have pain, it starts when they're teenagers.
19:56You know, so, if we don't address this, then it'll be a problem.
19:59You know, so, as for workplace, yes, we have a long way to go as well.
20:04I'm doing my part, you know, I'm actually attached to a group called Lead Women.
20:07So, we're actually going into companies and talking to emerging women leaders on the relevance of talking about menstrual health,
20:16menstrual pain, normalizing conversation like this at work, creating a menstrual friendly working environment at work.
20:24Well, it can be done, you know.
20:25So, the first step is to normalize talking about menstrual pain.
20:29We have to break that taboo, you know, in our community, especially in Malaysia.
20:33We do have people who are very uncomfortable when it comes to talking about menstruation.
20:37Yeah, so, we actually need to solve that as well, you know.
20:40So, there's a lot of root problem that we need to address and we have to do it.
20:45And, of course, like menstrual pain, the stigma about talking about period pains and not knowing what is normal and
20:51abnormal, all of these are dimensions of period poverty.
20:54So, period poverty is not just about the lack of menstrual products, but also the lack of knowledge, the lack
20:59of infrastructures, the lack for timely and appropriate gynecological care.
21:04And, also, we need to address this generational gap as well.
21:08You know, the older females are telling the younger females, it's okay to have this.
21:12And, they are giving this different narrative like, okay, you know, everything will be solved once you get married, you
21:17know, or you have children.
21:18So, we need to address that, you know.
21:19We need to talk to the older generation, you know, and we need to talk to them about menstruation and
21:23we need to talk about menstrual pain.
21:25You know, if it affects your quality of life, you need to do something about it, you know.
21:29So, that's what I feel, yeah.
21:30And, I suppose that's where the threshold, right, because some people may be wondering, when does this pain become a
21:36red flag?
21:36When is it normal?
21:37When is it not?
21:38And, as both of you have rightly pointed out, you know, there shouldn't just be that focus on infertility.
21:44There's so many factors that come into play with it.
21:46How then, well, Suita, you mentioned earlier about the psychological impacts of this.
21:51How then can we move towards a more holistic model that includes psychological support?
21:56Okay, so I think we should start when they're in school, you know.
22:01We have to normalize talking about menstrual pain, menstruation as well.
22:06And we need to get the boys in as well, you know.
22:08That's something we have to do, you know.
22:10Normalize conversation about menstruation.
22:12Normalize talking about pain.
22:15Don't run away from taboo topics such as pain, you know.
22:20And, of course, even if it's not related to menstruation, even if you have bowel issue and all that, you
22:25should be talking about it, you know.
22:27Because, like we talk about endometriosis, it's actually, it does affect other organs as well.
22:33So, when I first seek help, actually I had a problem, you know.
22:37I had constipation, diarrhea and all that.
22:39So, sometimes it's not specifically connected to menstruation.
22:43It's also, yeah.
22:45So, that's something we need to address.
22:47And, of course, psychologically, how does it impact women?
22:50Because a lot of us, we study, we go to universities, we are in school, you know.
22:56So, it affects us as well.
22:57So, conversation on menstruation and menstrual pain should be there.
23:02And, at work, it should be there as well.
23:05And, we shouldn't discriminate females who need to go on leave to seek treatment or they need to go on
23:13leave for fertility treatment.
23:14You know, you need to respect that.
23:16You cannot talk about fertility rate as a problem, but you're not helping these women.
23:22And, you're not creating that environment where they feel safe to talk about their pain.
23:28They feel safe that their employers understand them, you know.
23:32You know, what I see on the ground is a lot of females, even at work, they try to not
23:37talk about it.
23:38They, they themselves, because they feel like they might be discriminated at work, you know.
23:43So, I would say, don't look at it just as a gynecological issue.
23:48It's actually a psychological issue.
23:51And, if women are not happy or they're not safe or they're not supported, it affects the community.
23:59So, that's what I feel.
24:00Dr. Hanna, anything to add on to this?
24:02It's definitely not a gynecological issue.
24:04It's a human rights issue.
24:06And, this has been reported and made aware in Suha Kham's menstrual dignity report,
24:12where they have framed their menstrual dignity as one of the issues that we have to tackle in Malaysia.
24:20And, of course, endometriosis sits at the severe end of the spectrum,
24:23but a rights-based framework is definitely essential in how we address this issue.
24:28As I've mentioned probably earlier, we need to also ensure access to people, women in prison, refugees, migrants,
24:37if we truly want our policies to be comprehensive and equitable throughout all Malaysian society.
24:45And, just very quickly, how about research then?
24:47Should there be more priority funding for research into this?
24:50Absolutely, because we're lacking Malaysian data.
24:53So, we're importing data from the global north.
24:56We need to have our own data to be able to give evidence-based intervention to Malaysian women.
25:01So, Malaysian data needs to be there.
25:03And, of course, any programs that we roll out for awareness,
25:06we need to understand the cultural sensitivities of Malaysian women as well.
25:09We need to understand psychologically what are they experiencing,
25:12which is different from what people in the UK may experience.
25:15So, it is really important for us to not just invest in workplace interventions,
25:20but also to go back and invest in research.
25:23Because, globally, since Samson's retrograde menstruation theory, that was what, in 1932?
25:30We still have not made any advancements or any understanding about endometriosis.
25:35We have some ideas about why it might happen.
25:37Because of this lack of understanding, it creates a butterfly effect throughout,
25:43from diagnostic to giving the appropriate interventions to women themselves.
25:48They are not able to participate fully in society.
25:52And, for women who are watching this interview today,
25:56if there's one thing that you would ask them to pay attention or act on, what would it be?
26:01What's that one thing to pay attention or act early on when it comes to their own bodies?
26:06Shall we start with you, Dr. Suhita?
26:07Okay.
26:07Menstrual pain should not silence you.
26:09You need to actually listen to your body.
26:12And, you need to listen to others as well.
26:14So, if we can do that, that's the first step to reduce the diagnostic delay.
26:19And, of course, I truly believe, and I always tell this to everyone,
26:23if your pain affects your quality of life, no, you shouldn't tolerate it.
26:27You should go and seek help.
26:29Well, it doesn't have to be endometriosis.
26:30It could be other problems as well.
26:32We're not talking enough about fibroids.
26:33We're not talking enough about PCOS and cysts.
26:37We're not talking about all that.
26:39We're not even talking about menopause.
26:41So, I think it's important for women's health to be at the forefront.
26:45We have neglected it for far too long.
26:48We've swept it under the carpet.
26:50And, I think it's important for women to actually listen to their body.
26:55To advocate for themselves.
26:57And you, Dr. Hina?
26:57Definitely, that's the first step.
26:59Understanding your own body.
27:01And, I would advocate for higher health literacy in Malaysia.
27:05We talk about financial literacy all the time.
27:07But, what about understanding your own body?
27:09What are your cycles like?
27:10What is pain for you?
27:12What is normal for you?
27:13Because, I can't tell you what normal pain is for you.
27:17But, I do know that pain is abnormal.
27:20It really affects your life in a way that you can't go to school.
27:23You can't go to work.
27:25It impacts your relationships with other people.
27:28You need to seek help.
27:29Don't stay silent.
27:30And, definitely, like, find people who would help you.
27:34Like, My Endosis gives great support to women.
27:37And, find your allies.
27:39Yeah.
27:39So, at My Endosis, we actually, we're trying to strengthen the emotional arm of our association.
27:44So, we're trying to support healthcare professionals.
27:47So, I know it's hard for healthcare professionals to actually give emotional support.
27:51So, that's when we get healthcare professionals to send the patients to us.
27:56And, we will actually have this patient peer support environment created for these patients.
28:01And, that's great work that you are doing.
28:03And, I hope continue to do.
28:04Thank you so much to both of you for sharing your expert insights on the show.
28:09That's all the time that we have.
28:10I've been speaking to Dr. Hannah Nazri as well as Dr. Surita Mogan.
28:14This has been It's About Youth with me, Faye Kwan.
28:17Thank you for watching and good night.
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