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00:00:28Transcription by CastingWords
00:00:39CastingWords
00:01:28CastingWords
00:01:32CastingWords
00:01:39this is my mom carolyn i remember looking at it and being like i wonder if she was happy
00:01:47i knew that every person that i ever met was eventually going to ask me where my mom was and
00:01:55i dreaded it because i didn't want to have to explain the whole situation i felt a lot of shame
00:02:07around it just having to deal with other people's reactions or responses or opinions
00:02:13hold their anger confusion disgust pain surprise awkwardness or their silence sometimes i would
00:02:24make things up i would just say a different cause of death um that seems like simpler
00:02:34there's some way between i don't want to talk about it and just lying about the way she died
00:02:41but the truth is my dad killed my mom i was three months old
00:03:05my life was just always in the shadow of this horrible tragedy
00:03:19because i was never told anything i've always wanted to know what happened how it happened why it
00:03:27happened to keep knowing until somehow i can make it better
00:03:36i would never want this to happen to anybody
00:03:42but i am who i am because of it
00:04:02i came to know carolyn probably about two well about two years before all of this happened
00:04:08um my name is jill brodie um i met carolyn when i was in my late 20s um and she
00:04:17was a wonderful teacher
00:04:18amazing musician kind and of course physically she was so beautiful my name is vicky sheaf
00:04:28i was a good friend of carolyn stucky in our late 20s early 30s um and now i'm sitting here
00:04:39at 71.
00:04:41yeah we got scholarships to go to teachers college and we developed very strong friendship you know we
00:04:47just clicked she was teaching our children at the time and they had known her all their short lives
00:04:55and we're very fond of her i can remember my son age five saying i love mrs stucky mum you
00:05:02know and he
00:05:03meant it i think she loved children i think you know you don't probably don't become a school teacher
00:05:11you don't love children she says i'm gonna go you know into miss lismore and i thought oh good on
00:05:17you
00:05:17you know and next thing she's in the paper and she's won this one is where she was announced miss
00:05:29lismore
00:05:31and there's jackie weaver down there and some guys going in the background it was a big thing it was
00:05:40real prestigious to be you know miss lismore oh yeah you were special so yeah she would have been
00:05:47easily recognizable definitely she was the sort of woman that people would turn around and look at
00:05:54but she was oblivious to her beauty she was oblivious to the effect she had on people
00:06:01i was with carolyn at the lismore workers club and it was a wednesday night when she met her husband
00:06:08alan stucky i don't know whether he owned the pharmacy but he was certainly the principal in
00:06:12the pharmacy in lismore and he was eight years older so he was he was well placed but we're only
00:06:1918
00:06:20you know i'm going who's this dude you know this dude coming over here she was there for the picking
00:06:28wasn't she she's a pretty little thing big blue eyes blonde hair easily easily won over i would say
00:06:38this one is um the two of them and my dad's sister uh at their wedding
00:06:48i mean the first thing i think is those sideburns were quite quite a statement
00:06:57yeah i mean look it's it's a bit strange to look at wedding photos of them
00:07:05there's a lot of like hope and promise in that moment of a future that
00:07:12would look a lot different than it turned out to look um
00:07:23her marriage to alan stucky they they just didn't to me and to a lot of people didn't seem to
00:07:32mash together he was into tennis big way but yeah that wasn't her thing at all no she's more literary
00:07:41and
00:07:41artie music and you know different yeah they were chalk and cheese really when you when you analyze it
00:07:48like that the lismore theater club was a very kind of vibrant community
00:07:58i think it was a place where a lot of people could kind of have some fun and have this
00:08:05social connection
00:08:06and most of our friends at that time belonged to the theater club and carolyn had never previously
00:08:14been in the theater club but i think she envied the fun we had and so she auditioned
00:08:22is it cold being a ghost no i don't think so what happens if i punch you i doubt if
00:08:29you can do you
00:08:30want to oh well vera life spirit is a play written by noel coward it's about a man who is
00:08:38haunted by the
00:08:38ghost of his dead wife the ghost is played by my mum carolyn you are here aren't you you're not
00:08:45an
00:08:45illusion i may be an illusion but i'm most definitely here and her husband is played by alan and you
00:08:53you must promise me that in future you'll only come and talk to me when i'm alone
00:08:57my dear madame i'm afraid i'm wrong and also in this play was alan's wife madeline who is playing a
00:09:36psychic
00:09:43The last time I was here was when Glide Spirit was a production.
00:09:58This dad, it's a very typical dad in theatre club look, there's mum.
00:10:08You know, my dad loved this place, he loved acting and mum did too, she was a good actor.
00:10:15There's a program there, who's in it and then a bunch of photos so, it's this one, there's
00:10:28a couple like this with dad and Caroline, just this moment caught where they're looking
00:10:34at each other and I just go, yeah.
00:10:39You know, that's the sort of vibe that my mum would have got hold of, because the emotions
00:10:47were real, right?
00:10:48They weren't just acting.
00:10:54I don't know all the details of what went on there, but definitely a relationship was
00:11:00developing and a friendship and an attraction.
00:11:04The silliest thing I ever did in my whole life was to love you.
00:11:08They say a grand passion is like an insanity and it was for both of them.
00:11:12I came because the power of Charles' love, tugged and tugged and tugged at me.
00:11:19It didn't make my sweet.
00:11:22Yes, there was a lot of sneaking around, which happens in an affair, but lots of presents and
00:11:28flowers and gifts.
00:11:31I did have to keep a secret.
00:11:34I could see how happy they both were.
00:11:37I mean, I cared deeply for Madeline as well, so that was very difficult.
00:11:42The risks that Alan, Ennue and Caroline took, the notes that were left on the telegraph pole
00:11:48at the end of the road, on her car.
00:11:51I saw one at the supermarket when I was there, one day walked past her car and there was one
00:11:56of these notes.
00:11:57My dearest, most precious Caroline, I love you.
00:12:03You are a wonderful man, kind, thoughtful, understanding.
00:12:10I love the thoughts of our ultimate togetherness, which I now see is inevitable.
00:12:15Alan, Ennue had moved out of his home and had rented a little flat.
00:12:22Madeline wasn't coping at all.
00:12:25She lost a lot of weight very quickly.
00:12:29I remember one day she told me she was going to kill herself.
00:12:33I said, oh, you know, you can't do that.
00:12:36Her two boys were at university in Sydney.
00:12:38Her daughter, Claire, was 18.
00:12:41She said she couldn't be jilted.
00:12:44She couldn't be left on her own as someone left for the younger person.
00:12:49She couldn't deal with that humiliation.
00:12:51And I spoke to my GP and he said what people used to say in those days.
00:12:55He said, oh, if they talk about it, they don't do it.
00:12:59And he was a well-meaning man, but that was wrong.
00:13:05Alan found the body and she'd organised so that Claire wasn't home that night.
00:13:09And sure enough, everything in the house was tip top.
00:13:15Food was made for her own funeral.
00:13:22In her letter to me, because she wrote suicide letters, she told me not to blame my father.
00:13:28And honestly, I don't.
00:13:29I don't blame anyone in this story.
00:13:32It's just really hard being the child of that story, you know.
00:13:41It's all very tragic to think about the fact that these two women in this play are now dead
00:13:49in the ways that they died.
00:13:56Carolyn was, she was devastated by it and felt incredible guilt.
00:14:03I would say that Alan Inu, he was very sad about Madeleine and it was a traumatic
00:14:09and hideous thing that happened and he found her.
00:14:13But he was so obsessed with the fact that one day Carolyn would come to him and so he bought
00:14:19this big house.
00:14:21That was going to be the home with lots of bedrooms so that they could have
00:14:24all their children there eventually at times.
00:14:27That was his idea.
00:14:28No one wanted to be divorced.
00:14:30No one wanted to leave their husband.
00:14:31Because there was a lot of stigma in the community.
00:14:35Not today, but back in the 70s, dead right, and 80s.
00:14:40If she left the marriage, she was concerned.
00:14:43What?
00:14:45I guess the parents of her students, the church.
00:14:48She felt enormous shame for going against what she had been taught as far as her religion was concerned.
00:14:56Religion was a big part of growing up in the 50s and 60s.
00:15:00Huge, you know, everybody.
00:15:02It was rare for a family not to go to church.
00:15:06When she told us that Alan Stuckey had found out, I thought, right, now something will happen now.
00:15:12Either she will stay with him or she'll go with Alan Enu, but at least it's not this
00:15:17terrible, dangerous game that they were still playing.
00:15:22You've distanced yourself and made me resentful by taunting me with Alan Enu.
00:15:28If you do not love me, then I cannot go on to even try to work things out.
00:15:35My mum decided to stay with my dad and he made her swear on the Bible and he wrote vows
00:15:44for her to take.
00:15:49I swear never to say or do anything again to hurt you.
00:15:54I swear never to lie to my husband Alan ever again.
00:15:59I swear that the affair is over completely and that I will never do anything directly
00:16:06or indirectly to have any type of relationship with him again.
00:16:11I swear to love, honour and cherish you for the rest of my days.
00:16:18I asked her if she was worried for her own safety and she said no, no.
00:16:25She said I'm not, but I am worried what he might do to Alan Enu.
00:16:32Alan, if you should have any thoughts of trying to rekindle the relationship
00:16:36or even getting in touch with her in any way, then I will tell you now, you will join your
00:16:41wife.
00:16:45But she was very unhappy.
00:16:49She, well, she'd just had a baby.
00:16:54It must have been so stressful for her.
00:16:56And she had two little boys as well.
00:17:03My darling Alan, to choose to go to you meant a disruption of a family,
00:17:09gossip and talk about the cause of Madeline's death.
00:17:15To stay with Alan meant unbearable pain for you.
00:17:20For me, it meant an ache inside which I know will be with me every day for the rest of
00:17:25my life.
00:17:28She'd supposedly broken off with Alan Enu.
00:17:31It was over.
00:17:32Suddenly, she was seeing him again.
00:17:34And I said, Alan Stuckey will not let her go without a fight.
00:17:39We always knew that he was a man who would not be able to accept it.
00:17:47Like a lot of people, I suppose.
00:17:52And then he puts a private detective on her.
00:17:54Good God.
00:17:56She thought Alan Stuckey had been having her followed.
00:18:00I think she said, a little grey Volkswagen, I think I'm being followed.
00:18:06And to which I just thought, oh my God, where's that going to go?
00:18:11There's absolutely no excuse for that behaviour.
00:18:14Monitoring someone's movements is a huge indicator of family violence.
00:18:18of coercive control.
00:18:20I find it really disturbing that he did that.
00:18:23That he felt justified in doing that.
00:18:39My darling, I'm going to ask you again for the complete peace of mind.
00:18:45Have you had any contact since your vows?
00:18:49I beg you, I implore you, do not tell me a lie.
00:18:54It is the most important question you will ever answer.
00:19:01All I know is I love you more than anything, Alan.
00:19:09I happened to be in the station on the 31st of January 1985 when the phone rang and I answered
00:19:18it.
00:19:19There was a male voice on the other end of the phone, very calmly said,
00:19:24it's Alan Stuckey from Five Banksia Court, Lisboa Heights.
00:19:29And I said, yes, Alan, how can we help you?
00:19:33And he said, you'd better come up, I've just shot my wife.
00:19:37You know, when you did your training at the police academy, one of the things that I do remember very
00:19:42clearly that they instilled in young police was that domestic violence incidents, attending those,
00:19:50was the most dangerous situation that we would go to.
00:19:55Of course, you know, I was anxious approaching the house under those circumstances.
00:20:01And, you know, we went into the house and Alan Stuckey was sitting in the kitchen at a bench.
00:20:08He was just sitting there calmly, sipping coffee from a mug, as though nothing had happened.
00:20:17It was, yeah, it was quite surreal.
00:20:24I walked into the main bedroom and there was a double bed to the right.
00:20:30At the foot of the bed was a female person.
00:20:35It was quite shocking, obviously, what had happened to start with, but also having the, you know, the three children
00:20:42in the house at the time.
00:20:45And, yeah, by good fortune, perhaps nothing happened to them at the time.
00:20:54I was teaching down the other end of the peninsula here.
00:20:58I had on the playground on duty and my husband pulled up.
00:21:01I said, what are you doing here?
00:21:02He said, oh, I've got something terrible news to tell you.
00:21:06I turned the radio on next to the bed and it said that a 32-year-old small woman had
00:21:15been shot dead overnight.
00:21:18Police were at the scene in Gunalabar.
00:21:24It was fairly hysterical in our house.
00:21:27There was, we were incredibly upset.
00:21:29Alan had killed Carolyn.
00:21:32And as a child, I just had no concept of what that, how that could happen.
00:21:39I can still remember the feeling and thinking, oh my God, I could have stopped this.
00:21:45That was something I think a lot of people thought.
00:21:50In a case like that, a murder or an unlawful killing of someone, we call out the detectives.
00:21:58They come to the scene.
00:21:59They take over the investigation.
00:22:01The lead investigator was Detective Sergeant Don Kuehl.
00:22:06Senior Constable Will Palmer rang me at home.
00:22:08He told me that there had been a shooting and a lady was deceased.
00:22:14We went back to the police station where he was interviewed in the presence of his solicitor.
00:22:20Given some of the answers and whatnot, I'd say that he'd
00:22:24ran through a lot of the possible situations with his solicitor prior, which he's entitled to do.
00:22:31For the information of this record of interview, what is your full name?
00:22:34Alan James Stuckey.
00:22:37I had reason to doubt her fidelity and I engaged the private investigator to check her movements.
00:22:42Can you tell me what happened?
00:22:44She admitted that she had been with Alan Ennue on that day.
00:22:47She said she couldn't give him up.
00:22:49What did you do?
00:22:50I took the rifle from my study and raced back to the bedroom.
00:22:54She screamed and grabbed the barrel of the rifle and we struggled.
00:22:58Shots were fired.
00:23:00When did you load this rifle?
00:23:01I was going to shoot a flying fox a couple of months ago and that's when.
00:23:05Did you leave the magazine loaded with live cartridges in this rifle in your study?
00:23:10Yes, but it was right back behind the bed so that it's not easy for anybody to get at.
00:23:15What happened then?
00:23:16I had a shower and tried to compose my mind and work out if I should kill myself or not.
00:23:22I rang my sister to ask her to come and collect my children and it occurred to me that there
00:23:26was
00:23:26a debt that I hadn't paid and that was to the private investigator and I rang his residence to
00:23:32tell him that his money was in the worksite. I didn't want to feel that I had left some money
00:23:36hoeing.
00:23:37You have explained to us your wife's affair with the person, Helen, in you.
00:23:41Is that the only reason you can give us for this shooting having taken place?
00:23:45Yes, and considerations allied to it, yes.
00:23:48Is there anything further you wish to say in relation to this matter?
00:23:51Just that the affair has been going on for two years. That's all.
00:24:01I was three months old. My brothers were four and eight.
00:24:07And to have the children in the house when he did it. I mean, you can't imagine that scene.
00:24:15I don't think you can make sense of it. It's unforgivable. It should never have happened.
00:24:23I mean, the type of thing that was going on happens all the time. People don't die for it.
00:24:31After he was charged with murder, Alan Stuckey was bailed. The reason he would have got bailed is
00:24:38because of his standing community. He was a chemist. No prior convictions. Young children
00:24:44were still there. He's not going to decamp. So Stuckey got bailed. Went back to work, I think.
00:24:52My dad was charged with murder. But the trial wasn't for a year and a half. It was quite surprising
00:25:01to me,
00:25:02I think, when I realised that my brothers and I were at home with my dad a lot of that
00:25:08time.
00:25:10He was able to get out, resume a normal life with his children, with his three young children,
00:25:18back in his house in Lismore Heights and go back as a practising pharmacist of all things.
00:25:26Despite the fact that he had killed Caroline, he still had the legal right to dispose of her body
00:25:34as her husband. And he just simply had her cremated instantly with no ceremony. And nobody had a chance to
00:25:49recognise what had happened or to say goodbye to her. It was just as though she'd been put out with
00:25:55the rubbish.
00:25:57I've always wanted to know everything about it, you know, like everything surrounding it.
00:26:05I've always wanted to know what happened, how it happened, why it happened.
00:26:15That's been a lifelong journey.
00:26:22I want to understand where we were and where I was and what happened afterwards and why the decisions
00:26:31that were made were made were made. So part of it is just wanting to know about my own life
00:26:44and
00:26:44know information and put those puzzle pieces together.
00:26:52So this is the trial transcript.
00:26:58And are you feeling okay about looking at it now?
00:27:01I am. I feel a little bit nervous about it. Um, I don't know, there's a part of me that
00:27:07sort of wants
00:27:07information and then and I sort of wants to look at it and then a part of me that finds
00:27:12it quite,
00:27:13you know, upsetting, so. Absolutely.
00:27:15Um, so in in this trial, your father argued that he acted in response to provocation.
00:27:24The provocation in this case was said to be that Carolyn was having an affair. They're arguing
00:27:34that a person's actions contributed to their death. The provocation defense is actually a partial defense.
00:27:43It will reduce your culpability from murder to manslaughter.
00:27:49The guideline of, um, the provocation and the evidence required is that it comes back to
00:27:55what an ordinary person would do under those circumstances. So in other words, you and I,
00:28:01would we react the same way as Ellen Stuckey acted given the circumstances?
00:28:08People's marriages break down. I'm a lawyer and I hate being a family lawyer, but somebody's got to do it.
00:28:16And, uh, it happens all the time, but you don't turn around and kill your spouse.
00:28:27Your full name is William Arthur Barclay, a consultant psychiatrist now in private practice.
00:28:34Are you able to express an opinion as to whether that conduct could have induced an ordinary person
00:28:41to lose self-control in psychiatric terms? Yes, I believe so. There was a certain element of, um,
00:28:52if someone was wronged in that way, then they could be excused for not being able to control themselves.
00:28:58There's an ordinary person get a gun, which is already in the house, loaded, with three young children in the
00:29:06place.
00:29:08There's an ordinary person do that. And there's an ordinary person shoot his wife.
00:29:14And there's an ordinary person have a shower, ring a friend, ring his solicitor. There's an ordinary person do that.
00:29:20The person that they've killed is no longer able to give their side of the story or talk about
00:29:26what they went through. It's very one-sided and it's, um, highly critical of that person.
00:29:34And then at the same time, you also get people giving evidence about the positive characteristics of the accused.
00:29:42When you spoke to your brother, can you describe how he appeared to you to be?
00:29:48Extremely upset. What sort of person is your brother?
00:29:53A very serious-minded, very moral, quiet, shy, very idealistic person.
00:30:01I also think very naive. Is he a violent sort of person?
00:30:07No. No, not at all. He loved the children. He always has.
00:30:13Did he ever express to you the view he took of marriage?
00:30:17That marriage is a sacred thing.
00:30:22It seemed so odd to me that none of her friends got to speak for her, at least,
00:30:29because she wasn't able to speak. So it's like there were other people who could have at least
00:30:35spoke to her character and, um, given some indication of what she was going through. I just, yeah.
00:30:45Yeah. It becomes very one-sided sort of view of what happens in that situation, doesn't it?
00:30:51Yeah. Sometimes the prosecution could go much further in the way that they approach this and
00:30:59in trying to ask questions and get more information about that context. They don't always understand
00:31:06the dynamics of family violence themselves and the importance of it for understanding
00:31:12what happens in domestic homicides. What we really needed in this trial, as far as the
00:31:19prosecution is concerned, we needed someone that was going to get in there and fight like a bulldog
00:31:23and shake their head and carry on. And unfortunately, we finished up with a golden retriever.
00:31:29Um, I was appalled at the lack of prosecution. I mean, I remember sitting in the back of the court
00:31:36and
00:31:36just thinking, oh my God. The worst thing about trying to recover from this for all of us
00:31:43was, was that there was so, so much shock and horror because she was this scarlet woman. We would hear
00:31:55indirectly about the outrage about what this woman had done to this poor chap, not what this chap had
00:32:01done to this poor woman. Yeah. I, I, I just think there was this mindset that she's the villain in
00:32:10all
00:32:10this. She's done the wrong thing. And in a sense, I hate to say it, but some of those people
00:32:17I'm sure
00:32:17think she got what she deserved.
00:32:37So there's quite a lot of evidence in relation to the ballistics, what sort of weapon was used and how
00:32:45that weapon is operated.
00:32:50Carol was shot three times, once in the abdomen, twice in the head.
00:32:56Oh, this one's really graphic.
00:33:03After the first shot, she's wounded lying on the floor and she wouldn't have died from that shot either.
00:33:09The doctors have said, surely you should have realized what he's doing.
00:33:14Two more times, he cocked that gun and fired it again.
00:33:17And this is a bolt action gun, a bolt action 22 rifle. So it's not like a semi-automatic where
00:33:23you
00:33:23just have to pull the trigger. There was a manual requirement to reload that gun.
00:33:31Or you could probably just do it like that. That's one. Bang.
00:33:36Two. It's a very deliberate action. That's what I'm trying to say.
00:33:45Yeah, there is quite a lot in the trial transcript about where abouts in the house the shooting occurred.
00:33:52There's a map that's been provided as part of the evidence.
00:33:56And you see that there.
00:34:00This is my bedroom.
00:34:02This is my dad's room still, all the way through my life.
00:34:06Absolutely.
00:34:06I go into this room every day that she was, you know, lying here dying and just.
00:34:15Yeah, that's horrible.
00:34:16Yeah, it's awful.
00:34:26He was undoubtedly at all times a man of exceptional character and obvious good standing in the community.
00:34:34The prisoner's control of himself over a lengthy period ultimately snapped when his wife told him she could not give
00:34:41up her lover.
00:34:43In the circumstances, some response on his part would not have been unreasonable.
00:34:48However, to shoot the deceased three times was hardly proportionate to the devastating verbal message.
00:34:56It was greater than the circumstances warranted.
00:35:00In my view, the prisoner is unlikely to again offend against the law.
00:35:05The prisoner's strong subjective matters, unlike many other cases, provide the basis for specifying a non-parole period which will
00:35:14give him the opportunity of resuming his life in the community and with his children at a reasonably early time.
00:35:22Alan James Stuckey, on the charge on which the jury has convicted you, I sentence you to penal servitude for
00:35:31eight years.
00:35:32I specify a non-parole period of three years.
00:35:38She, like, sort of made me do it.
00:35:40She ran off, you know, went off with another man.
00:35:43Poor, it was all, poor me, poor me.
00:35:45I'm the victim here.
00:35:48Yeah, it makes me really furious, actually.
00:35:53I have difficulty reconciling the fact that this matter resulted in a conviction for manslaughter.
00:36:00I really do.
00:36:01But, of course, I have to accept the court's decision.
00:36:03That's the system of justice that we have in this country.
00:36:06Even though we don't have provocation defence available in most states in Australia anymore,
00:36:12we still see the same explanations for why men acted the way they did in these cases.
00:36:21The provocation narrative can still be used to understand their actions when they're considering sentencing.
00:36:27Right.
00:36:28I asked him one time, like, he said something about the fact that he'd never apologised to us,
00:36:33and he was like, I don't owe you or anyone an apology.
00:36:36Wow.
00:36:36Like, the absence of the impact on the children is really striking as well.
00:36:45It felt like a real sense of, like, what's best for my father and really centred around him
00:36:51rather than thinking about us and the long-term impacts of the decisions that were made.
00:36:57And the actual conclusion of that drama was catastrophic for the children especially.
00:37:24So these are letters that my dad wrote me when he was in prison.
00:37:30So I was probably about two or three years old.
00:37:36Most of them are, um, like, pictures of birds that my dad has drawn or trees.
00:37:47Dear Catherine, it is Sunday here as I am writing this and the weather is very poor.
00:37:52There is a big fog all over the camp and it is just so thick it is almost like rain.
00:37:58This is a kookaburra. See his big, strong beak for eating meat?
00:38:02Sometimes they eat snakes and their song is just like a laugh.
00:38:06Love, Dad.
00:38:17My father served 22 months for killing my mother.
00:38:22On his release, my brothers and I went back to live with him.
00:38:26I was about four years old.
00:38:31I was appalled that he could be given custody of the children.
00:38:35I cannot understand how the court made an order that she was to live with her father.
00:38:44I really cannot understand that.
00:38:48So this is a picture of me in primary school.
00:38:54I excelled at school and I had a lot of friends and I enjoyed it.
00:38:59But it felt like a different world when I went home.
00:39:03I felt a real disconnect between what I was showing people and what I was experiencing internally.
00:39:13I wasn't allowed to talk about my mother.
00:39:19They weren't photos, they weren't stories.
00:39:23I didn't have any sense of who she was.
00:39:32The story that I was told was that she had done this awful thing.
00:39:40He had snapped and then he killed her and really framed as this sort of accident.
00:39:52I feel like there was a really significant shift in my relationship with my dad.
00:39:58When I went to high school, I really felt like I had become someone that he really didn't like.
00:40:08Where there was this sense of entitlement and control.
00:40:12And that if you step outside of this little box that he's kind of put you in,
00:40:18then you become this huge disappointment and you're uncontrollable.
00:40:26I knew that I had to be a certain way.
00:40:30Show that I was fine.
00:40:33Even if I was suffering.
00:40:38Feeling like at any moment, love will be withdrawn.
00:40:46I just remember bumping into her one day and I knew it was her birthday and I took her around
00:40:50to the cafe and we had nice chocolate and we had a chat.
00:40:55She told me that she understood that her mother was leaving her and the boys and I just said,
00:41:05no, that's not true.
00:41:12That's what her father had told her and I told her that there was no way her mother would have
00:41:24left her and the lies that she'd been told were just not right.
00:41:35When I was 16, I needed to get my passport and I needed to get a death certificate.
00:41:44And so it was the first time I actually had seen her cause of death, like written down, which was
00:41:49something like the effects of a gunshot wound to the head.
00:41:52Which was incredibly confronting for me at 16 because nobody had ever said that to me.
00:42:00They hadn't actually said, like, this is how she died.
00:42:03I remember that feeling of reading that death certificate and being really shocked at, I guess, the bluntness of it,
00:42:11but just also that that was what it was, you know.
00:42:15Um, that my dad had shot her in the head.
00:42:21That knowledge made me realise that I was unsafe, actually.
00:42:28Like, physically unsafe.
00:42:30And it's not, it's like I felt that before.
00:42:34But I had this example of, like, how far he could go.
00:42:38I felt scared of my dad at that time.
00:42:43And what he could do.
00:42:45Because I was also just living on my own with him at that point.
00:42:49My brothers had left home.
00:42:51And I think, why didn't anyone else, why didn't the adults, you know, ask some questions, check in, all of
00:42:59those things.
00:43:00It's not like people didn't know that that was fucking strange.
00:43:04It was a weird thing that we were growing up in the house that our mother was killed, with the
00:43:10man that killed her.
00:43:14I think there was an assumption that everything was fine.
00:43:19Everyone wanted it to be fine.
00:43:20So, I thought, well, if I'm not fine, then something's wrong with me, not them.
00:43:29I started having nightmares about her death.
00:43:33Like, very graphic nightmares about her being shot in this house that I was living in.
00:43:41And it was also just, like, my everyday house.
00:43:43You know, like, coming from school and making myself a snack.
00:43:47And, you know, sometimes I would watch something with my dad and it was funny and we'd laugh.
00:43:52And it was just my life.
00:43:54And it was also terrifying at times.
00:43:58It's, yeah.
00:44:09I knew that to have any sort of peace that I needed to leave Lismore.
00:44:17And I finished my last exam, packed up my stuff, and one day when my dad was at work and
00:44:23just left.
00:44:28I actually don't remember saying goodbye to my dad at all.
00:44:33So, I went to Sydney and moved in with my cousin, Elle, and the family.
00:44:40And we went to uni together at Sydney Uni.
00:44:44At some point, I got a job at Sydney Theatre Company, and that's where I met Tanya.
00:44:52Catherine's my best friend.
00:44:54My former partner.
00:44:56We met in 2008.
00:45:00Neither of us had been in a queer relationship before, so our falling in love was a really beautiful time
00:45:06and also a complicated time.
00:45:07We had, like, great crew of friends that we spent time with and saw a lot of art.
00:45:12We were super broke, but it was a beautiful kind of love story and then also, like, interwoven with a
00:45:23lot of trauma and pain, I guess.
00:45:26I felt like I would leave behind, like, everything that had happened and including that feeling of, I guess, you
00:45:38know, depression.
00:45:39And I just assumed that that would go away once I was out of the house and away from my
00:45:45dad.
00:45:49And it didn't.
00:45:51In fact, it felt worse.
00:45:54I was more depressed.
00:45:56I was really depressed.
00:45:57I don't think I've ever seen Catherine asleep.
00:46:01And we were together for four years.
00:46:05Insomnia and nightmares were a big part of our life.
00:46:09They would sit bolt upright and they would be screaming.
00:46:14It was a guttural scream.
00:46:17And they would be shaking, hyperventilating.
00:46:21It was just fear.
00:46:23Just, just fear.
00:46:26How anyone thought that he could raise those kids in the home where he killed Carolyn and then have one
00:46:34of them grow up with physical likeness to this person and for people not to think that there was going
00:46:40to be some, some problems there perplexes me.
00:46:44My father was still in regular contact with me and writing me letters that were pretty awful.
00:46:53Some days we would be going about our days in our tiny little apartment and it was like living with
00:46:58someone that wasn't there.
00:47:00Like they were the closest person to me in the world.
00:47:03So when they did disappear, it was difficult.
00:47:09And I didn't know what to do.
00:47:12And it was during that time that I went through a lot of things in my life, a breakup with
00:47:19Tanya that brought a lot of grief and loss into my, to my world.
00:47:29So I started going to therapy, like really seriously for the first time and really started dealing with my childhood.
00:47:52So in 2013, I dropped my surname Stucky and I made my middle name, my surname, which is Joy.
00:48:02And Joy was my mum's middle name.
00:48:05Part of it was not wanting to just be easily tracked down by my father.
00:48:12And then there was really embracing my, my mum and that side of the family.
00:48:38I always felt like I wasn't going to be around for very long.
00:48:44Like I was going to have a short life.
00:48:47Like my mum.
00:48:50I worked out how old she was when she was killed, which was 32 years, nine weeks and six days.
00:49:00And I worked out what date that will be for me.
00:49:03And it's the 27th of December, 2016.
00:49:09So I have a cutoff date in my head and I have about six months.
00:49:15And I've always just assumed that I would die sometime before then.
00:49:23That's, that's it for me.
00:49:35Part of feeling like I'm not going to be here next year is not having a mother to kind of
00:49:44see what that looks like, what that next part looks like and getting older looks like.
00:49:48And a lot of people look to their parents for that, but part of it, I think, is just that
00:49:56I feel like we're somehow the same person.
00:50:03And that's probably not the healthiest thing in the world.
00:50:15So it's like 2am or something and I can't sleep because I've never been able to take sleeping pills because
00:50:26they give me these nightmares.
00:50:29I feel like having them around is probably not a good idea, so I'm supposed to be at therapy today.
00:50:47I had to cancel it because I can't afford to go like I'm 32 and I can't pay my rent.
00:50:58I think that's enough for today.
00:51:06I really didn't want to do this today because I feel awful and I'm afraid of not coming out of
00:51:19it.
00:51:31Today is December 26th, so tomorrow I will be the exact age that my mother was when she was killed.
00:52:22So today is New Year's Day and I'm alive, so that's...
00:52:30It's kind of strange.
00:52:32I've just realised how many people in my life are willing to help and it's a really beautiful thing.
00:52:40So I guess just thinking about the next couple of months, thinking about how I'm going to survive.
00:52:49And some of those things are just kind of practical things to do with work and finding another job.
00:53:00I think I need to learn to drive.
00:53:07I will, I guess, be back tomorrow.
00:53:21For such a long time, the only thing that I knew about my mum was the way that she died.
00:53:31Then that became my whole relationship with her.
00:53:38It's been really important to me for her to exist as a person who lived and not just a person
00:53:48who was killed.
00:53:54I decided that I wanted to write to some people and ask them what my mum was like.
00:54:08So we're going to Brisbane to meet Anne McKinnon, a friend of my mum's.
00:54:16I'm excited because I never really knew what happened to her.
00:54:23We couldn't get a lot of information.
00:54:27We lost our friend, but you don't know what happened to the children.
00:54:32I probably never thought about it from the point of view of the child.
00:54:36Their feelings and what their lives turned out like.
00:54:43When my mum was younger, I think they studied together at Teachers College, from what I know.
00:54:49So it would be nice to hear about.
00:54:53I guess those days before my mum was a mother too.
00:54:58You know, just her as a younger person.
00:55:06May I hug you? Is that okay?
00:55:08Perfectly. Oh, you're a beautiful girl.
00:55:10I just want you to stand next to me like mum and I.
00:55:14Oh my goodness.
00:55:16You're a little bit taller. Look.
00:55:18Wow.
00:55:19That's going to the ball.
00:55:21Oh, that's a beautiful picture.
00:55:23Oh, we would have been 18.
00:55:25Wow.
00:55:26God, you like her. Oh my God.
00:55:27It's so nice to see you.
00:55:31So, because we buddied up and we used to just wake up at 10 to 9,
00:55:35put the Levi's on and the gym boots and tuck her hair in and jump the fence and go to
00:55:39uni.
00:55:39We had to go 9 to 5 in those days.
00:55:41It was very regimented, mark the roll, you know.
00:55:44And she started skipping.
00:55:46I said, you've got to come to social studies.
00:55:48She goes, oh, yes.
00:55:51I love this.
00:55:52I love this because this is so neat.
00:55:54And I said, get up.
00:55:55She goes, no, no, no, I can't be bothered.
00:55:57I said, no, no, no, you'll fail.
00:55:59And she did.
00:56:01Anyway, she got through it.
00:56:03She was messy.
00:56:05I'm really messy, too.
00:56:07Are you messy?
00:56:08I'm so messy.
00:56:08Show me your hands.
00:56:09I'm so undidied.
00:56:10You don't get eczema?
00:56:11I do, yes.
00:56:12So did she.
00:56:13Yeah.
00:56:14And this is a recipe.
00:56:16Cool.
00:56:17That's Mum's writing.
00:56:18Oh, yes.
00:56:19She had such neat writing.
00:56:21Carolyn, and that's rum cream pie.
00:56:23I've got a copy of that.
00:56:24You have that.
00:56:25Oh, thank you.
00:56:26You have that.
00:56:27This is my little treasure trove I've got out of.
00:56:30I'm going to veganise this recipe and make it.
00:56:34You keep all those.
00:56:37You know, you're more than welcome.
00:56:38It was so nice to meet you.
00:56:39Thank you so much.
00:56:40It's just been wonderful.
00:56:41It's been really lovely.
00:56:41And I really hope we can catch up again and stay in touch.
00:56:45Give me a big hug.
00:56:53I decided to get in touch with Ellen Ennew,
00:56:56who is the man my mother fell in love with,
00:56:59and had an affair with,
00:57:01and ask some questions about my mum.
00:57:06Dear Catherine,
00:57:08the first thing I should mention regarding our relationship
00:57:10is that while it started as an affair,
00:57:13it developed into much more.
00:57:15Carolyn was a very special person to me,
00:57:18but not only to me, but many friends she had,
00:57:21and was and is sadly missed, even after all this time.
00:57:30I had also received a letter from Claire during that time.
00:57:36She contacted me after she had heard that I'd reached out to her dad.
00:57:43And we just became really good friends.
00:57:48And such a big anchor for me.
00:57:53While we didn't have the same experience,
00:57:58there was so many things that were similar.
00:58:01And there was just a real understanding of our families
00:58:05and that town and everything that happened.
00:58:17I don't think I've ever really been around here much.
00:58:21Ah, Greenwick.
00:58:23I feel like that name is in the trial.
00:58:28So this is the house where my dad and your mum
00:58:33were planning on being together.
00:58:36So dad bought this house thinking that
00:58:40you and your brothers would move in here.
00:58:43And of course your mum.
00:58:46This would have been your home.
00:58:50And yours.
00:58:51And mine.
00:58:57Yeah, I mean, I guess it's a different,
00:59:00a whole, like, life that...
00:59:06could have been.
00:59:11And that being, yeah, taken away.
00:59:14From her and from us and from all of us.
00:59:30When you said that, you used to think,
00:59:32where are those people who were my mother's friends?
00:59:34Why aren't they helping me?
00:59:36I just, you know, that was devastating to hear that.
00:59:39I knew your father's animosity to anyone who was from,
00:59:42from that time.
00:59:43Yeah.
00:59:44But maybe we should have gone past that.
00:59:46You know, maybe that's...
00:59:48You know, we should...
00:59:49I guess we were all looking after ourselves as well.
00:59:53We were afraid to...
00:59:56You know, I was scared to ask questions
00:59:57because I didn't know who to ask.
00:59:59Like, it was, it was honestly like,
01:00:01it had never happened.
01:00:03But I just imagined that every time anywhere you went,
01:00:06that, you know, people would have said,
01:00:08oh, you know.
01:00:08I'm sure they did.
01:00:09I mean, that's the thing too.
01:00:11Growing up knowing that other people,
01:00:13well, not even knowing,
01:00:14but feeling like people were talking about you all the time.
01:00:17Did you?
01:00:18Yeah.
01:00:19You know, we could...
01:00:23I couldn't handle anything but the silence.
01:00:27Yeah.
01:00:28Yes.
01:00:31I hated that everyone always was so careful.
01:00:35I mean, I know it was a protective thing,
01:00:37but that, yeah, we...
01:00:38It's like I've already lived through the worst of it.
01:00:42This, the worst...
01:00:43Yeah, the worst part is not speaking about it.
01:00:50So, I went back to Banksy Court,
01:00:53my old street that I grew up in.
01:00:58But I was with Helen and Lyndall,
01:01:01my two old neighbours.
01:01:06Wow.
01:01:07How do you feel coming back and have you been back before?
01:01:11I think I've driven past once in the last,
01:01:14you know, 20 years or something,
01:01:15but I haven't kind of stood here.
01:01:18Yeah.
01:01:21It's hard.
01:01:24Yeah.
01:01:26I remember it being a really dark house growing up.
01:01:29I mean, I don't know if that was my state of mind or...
01:01:31But the house itself felt really...
01:01:33Dark house?
01:01:33Yeah.
01:01:34Yeah.
01:01:34And the curtains...
01:01:35I feel like the curtains were always closed.
01:01:37Did you notice the difference between, like,
01:01:40when my mum was there and after?
01:01:42Like, did it feel very different?
01:01:44Yeah.
01:01:44I remember being here to look after your brothers, Catherine,
01:01:46when your dad took you as a little baby.
01:01:49And I just was sitting in the house just feeling the enormity
01:01:52of what had happened and how dark and, you know,
01:01:57your mum was always vibrant and there'd be snacks
01:02:00and lots of activity happening and giggling.
01:02:03Yeah.
01:02:03And the sense was just that huge contrast between, you know,
01:02:09this is now and here on.
01:02:10Yeah.
01:02:11And...
01:02:12But I think now we get to grieve that.
01:02:14Mm-hm.
01:02:15Whereas back then we didn't,
01:02:17because we didn't know how.
01:02:28There she is.
01:02:29Oh, there she is.
01:02:34I feel really angry about the fact that it says passed away.
01:02:37I was just looking at that...
01:02:39It just makes me really mad, because he did this.
01:02:44She'll always be older than me.
01:02:46Mm.
01:02:47I'm 52 and I still look at Caroline as...
01:02:50Oh, no, isn't that strange.
01:02:52...as always going to be...
01:02:53Your mum read this to you when you were a baby.
01:02:57I carry your heart with me.
01:02:59I carry it in my heart.
01:03:01I am never without it.
01:03:03Anywhere I go, you go, my dear.
01:03:06And whatever is done by only me is your doing, my darling.
01:03:11I fear no fate.
01:03:14For you are my fate, my sweet.
01:03:16I want no world.
01:03:19For beautiful you are my world, my true.
01:03:22I carry your heart.
01:03:25I carry it in my heart.
01:03:36I love you so much.
01:03:40The three of you so, so much.
01:03:57I had been having these thoughts about doing a memorial for my mum.
01:04:04Make a space for all of us to talk a bit more about her and have some ritual around it.
01:04:10I felt like I needed that, like a grief ritual.
01:04:15And...
01:04:16And I felt like other people did too.
01:04:22Catherine wanted to do something in Lismore to bring together friends and family to honour Carolyn.
01:04:30They ended up finding this outdoor cathedral, which is so beautiful and, yeah, really connected.
01:04:37Catherine's kind of environmental spirituality and Carolyn's faith.
01:04:59So many people really were just waiting for me to ask, you know, like really actually wanted the opportunity to
01:05:10speak about her.
01:05:11Hi, how are you going?
01:05:13This is my daughter.
01:05:14Nice to meet you.
01:05:15How are you?
01:05:16Good to see you.
01:05:17This is the first photo of Catherine's mother.
01:05:19So, Carolyn would have been around four to five.
01:05:25It's a beautiful photo.
01:05:27Catherine did an amazing job of organising the memorial.
01:05:31She got all sorts of people came together.
01:05:35People that I hadn't seen for years were there.
01:05:37That made it emotional because we knew why we were there.
01:05:41You too.
01:05:43It was also a real time of connection and beauty and community.
01:05:49And it was amazing.
01:05:51And it was so cathartic for all of us there.
01:05:55Emotion was so raw, so real.
01:05:58It was as if it was a week after something had happened.
01:06:02And I'll never forget it.
01:06:05I just wanted to welcome everyone here.
01:06:07Probably all know it's Carolyn's birthday today.
01:06:10And I feel like maybe if she were here, she would put on some spectacular dinner party.
01:06:15She would print out menus.
01:06:16Her attention to detail, I have heard, was pretty spot on.
01:06:22Carolyn, your death came before the groundswell change of public outrage at the incidents of domestic violence that blight our
01:06:29community.
01:06:30Even now, 30 years later, I find it difficult to speak without being a little bit of a lump in
01:06:35the throat.
01:06:36And today is pleasure for me as well.
01:06:39And I just am so happy and so pleased to see you, the embodiment of your mother, and with the
01:06:48approach to life that I think she would be very, very proud of.
01:06:51I've been trying to put words to how I feel about my mother my whole life.
01:06:56The feeling of being part of her and her me, but also the absence of something missing.
01:07:04Happy anniversary of your birth, Carolyn Joy.
01:07:08You have lived in my heart and mind and body since the very first moment I took breath.
01:07:14And you will be there until the last.
01:07:18And in that way, you have lived far longer than your 32 years.
01:07:36The feeling of being part of her, my family, I walked away from a long time ago, and I said,
01:07:39she will never come to her.
01:07:39I was walking away from a long time ago, and I woke up in my heart and the heart and
01:07:40body of me.
01:07:40And I was walked away from the heart and body of me.
01:07:43And I felt like I was alive.
01:07:45But I was so happy and a little bit of feeling that I was very proud of.
01:07:45When I was crying, I spoke to you.
01:07:47I was crying out of my heart.
01:07:53It was just a little bit of feeling that I feel about my heart.
01:08:12That my mother died as a result of family violence,
01:08:17I didn't think of it that way for so long
01:08:21because there was this idea that that was just an anomaly in my dad's behaviour
01:08:27instead of an actual act of family violence
01:08:32that was also a crime against us, or should have been.
01:08:38That was a really big shift in my thinking.
01:08:47I started working on the research project at Melbourne Uni
01:08:52that aims to improve support and better understand children
01:08:57and young people who have been bereaved by domestic homicide.
01:09:01Acting in the best interest of the child is seen as secondary
01:09:05to ensuring that the accused gets a fair trial,
01:09:07but also how much are they supported to have agency.
01:09:11So it's not just about having a voice,
01:09:12it's actually that that needs to change.
01:09:14Yeah, there's a bigger issue than probably people have realised.
01:09:18Yeah, totally.
01:09:19Bev is somebody that I interviewed for our research project.
01:09:23I hear a gunshot and I'm like, what the hell?
01:09:28And I see my mum being shot in the back.
01:09:30And how old were you at this point?
01:09:32I'm 11 at this point.
01:09:33I can't remember how many shots in total,
01:09:35but the final shot was to the head.
01:09:37I still see that image pretty much every day.
01:09:41How do we heal from this experience?
01:09:44Do we ever really heal?
01:09:45Where do we stand and what do we have left to do here in this space?
01:09:49Because there is a lot more to do.
01:09:50So much to do.
01:09:52And we're going to do it, Bev.
01:09:5752 women a year are dying.
01:10:00These women are mothers, grandmothers,
01:10:04someone's aunt, someone's friend.
01:10:06Where are the voices of those who are left behind?
01:10:11I think that the work that we're doing and what we're fighting for
01:10:15will make a difference to children and young people.
01:10:20Children are primary victims in this situation.
01:10:23Like it's a direct crime against them as well.
01:10:28The men who commit these crimes are considered intelligent, charming.
01:10:33They might not fit the stereotype of what an abuser looks like.
01:10:36And my dad was those things.
01:10:37I don't have any relationship with him anymore.
01:10:39And I don't, I practice very deliberate non-forgiveness.
01:10:44I don't know my dad now.
01:10:46So I can't really speak to the person he is now.
01:10:49But the further away I get,
01:10:51the more clearly I can see what it's like
01:10:55to be in an abusive relationship.
01:10:57And that was an abusive relationship.
01:10:59So me wanting to come back to him,
01:11:02him to be proud of me and be in his favour.
01:11:04Yes, that's a child wanting that,
01:11:07but that's also somebody who is going through the dynamic
01:11:11of somebody else's push and pull and somebody else's control.
01:11:20I don't have him in my head anymore.
01:11:24So many of the depressive kind of episodes that I've had
01:11:28are around that stuff that I can't change.
01:11:32No matter how much therapy I do.
01:11:35And that's where activism comes into my life, I think.
01:11:38That's where I go, well,
01:11:40I can't just be doing inferior work.
01:11:45I feel like if you're going to live in this world,
01:11:48you have to do something.
01:11:52I love the concept of killjoys,
01:11:55or feminist killjoys, specifically.
01:11:59Sarah Ahmed, who is an amazing thinker and writer,
01:12:05and she coined this term.
01:12:08People who are willing to sort of not stay quiet about injustice.
01:12:14But I have been called a killjoy,
01:12:18and I embrace that.
01:12:19I think it's a good thing.
01:12:35I'm not here now as, like, some healed human.
01:12:43It's ongoing.
01:12:46It's always kind of navigating
01:12:48my mental health and experiences and trauma.
01:12:58Being almost 40 now
01:13:00and realizing that my mum only got to 32,
01:13:06for me, my 30s have just been such a huge time
01:13:10of understanding myself,
01:13:12and she didn't really get that time.
01:13:18I think if I could speak to my mum now,
01:13:23I would tell her I loved her
01:13:29and let her know that
01:13:34my life is, like, so full.
01:13:44I don't just have to tolerate
01:13:47being sort of okay.
01:13:51You know, I'm actually allowed to feel good.
01:13:59I'm in a new place where I feel like
01:14:01I might actually live for a while.
01:14:03I mean, who knows?
01:14:04Who knows what will happen?
01:14:26I mean, who knows what to have to do.
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