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Calls are mounting for three Malaysian elephants who were relocated to a zoo in Osaka, Japan, to be brought home, amid growing scrutiny over their welfare and living conditions. But is that necessarily what’s best for them now? And what does proper elephant welfare actually require? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Dr Wong Ee Phin, Associate Professor at University of Nottingham Malaysia and Principal Investigator for the Management & Ecology of Malaysian Elephants (MEME) research project.
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00:10hello and good evening i'm melissa idris welcome to consider this this is the show
00:16where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of the day calls are
00:21mounting for three malaysian elephants who are current who were relocated to a zoo in osaka
00:27japan to be brought back home this amid growing scrutiny over their welfare and the terms of their
00:34relocation so today on the show we'd like to examine what this means for conservation practice
00:40and elephant welfare standards joining me on the show today is dr wang yi pin who is an associate
00:48professor at university of nottingham malaysia she's also the principal investigator for the
00:53management and ecology of malaysian elephants research project even it's good to have you
00:59back on the show um we've all been following this case of kelat dara and amoy and i'm just wondering
01:05when you when you look at what's currently happening what what has this um this case this situation
01:12highlighted to you as a conservation uh scientist hello melissa yes i'm actually um
01:21very overwhelmed with the reaction from the members of the public it just showed that how uh awareness
01:28among the people uh about welfare of uh standards in captivity is is increasing i i think this is a
01:37global phenomenon because globally also um there has been a lot of cries for uh welfare standards for
01:44elephants uh in captivity to be you know pushed up to be raised up so nowadays a lot of the
01:52captive facilities like zoos and sanctuaries they have very uh stringent measures for example they need
01:58to have uh different roaming areas for the male and the female uh and then once in a while the
02:05male and
02:05female will get to meet up but otherwise then they will separate the male and the female so they this
02:12allow a more natural behavior for the elephants even in captivity and uh and usually they will not house the
02:19elephants alone they they will have a few so that they have that social interaction so these are some
02:24of the measures you know zoos has been uh taking on board trying to look after the welfare of elephants
02:30in captivity that that's actually a really good point now if i may get you to elaborate on that
02:36uh for many of us i think we don't really understand what good and good elephant welfare looks like in
02:42captivity when you talk about the minimum standards that should be non-negotiable uh for as you said space
02:49uh for social interaction for nutrition can you elaborate why these are important minimum basic minimum
02:59standards that um that zoos and um and anyone have uh in charge of l and l excuse me elephant
03:08welfare uh needs to uphold
03:11yeah because there are studies done uh by researchers uh showing that elephants have that awareness the
03:18self-recognition so uh they've done the mirror test a mirror test is actually a psychology test used very
03:24often for little children yeah human children yeah so they will put the child in front of the in front
03:31of
03:31the mirror and see if the child can recognize his own reflection uh and they now they are doing this
03:36test
03:36for animals and elephants is one of the few animals that shows that they can recognize their own reflection
03:42in the mirror uh and and that reflects that they have this understanding and then ability to empathize
03:50uh with other elephants yeah so uh that is why i think there has been a lot of push for
03:57um more more
04:00attention towards elephant welfare um and we can see that yeah elephants they have social groups they have
04:08families um and and when you move one away you know they they do suffer you know yeah we've seen
04:18elephants
04:19griefing over the family members and things like that so they have that very strong social ties
04:25uh among the female groups uh among the female groups and also between the males you know the the males
04:31then they
04:31have this um i would say the brotherhood born yeah we call them the bachelor herd so sometimes we find
04:38a
04:38few males hanging out together uh that's my observation of elephants in the wild in in malaysia so
04:44they they have this very strong ties among each other yeah so elephants are very much like us in many
04:50ways
04:51families a friendship is important and they are herbivores and all they eat is a lot of grasses a
04:57lot of vegetation uh they do need a lot of food so nutrition is also one important aspect for um
05:04captivity you know to look after uh and another concern is also on on their feet yeah elephants in
05:11captivity sometimes their feet um they get problems with their feet so that's why there's they need to check
05:16the feet often and they need to make sure uh the elephant is doing well yeah right so so if
05:22you were
05:23to look for key indicators to assess whether or not um elephants that are under in captivity are thriving
05:29or if they're under stress you would look at um their feet what else would you look at uh okay
05:35so uh
05:36i mean physiology wise yes all this physical uh checkup is needed uh but in terms of their uh
05:45interaction with other elephants the behavior wise the observation you can see how they interact are
05:51they getting along well or or are they fighting with each other yeah um even uh some studies at zoo
06:00they look at how where the elephants will sleep at night do they sleep close to each other or they
06:04sleep far apart uh and how they interact during food times uh there's also other types of studies for
06:12example looking at hormones uh from hormones you can look at you know their stress response uh and
06:18also their reproductive states yeah so uh basically yes all these physiologies uh checkup medical you know
06:30nutrition um yes hormones and behavior observations are used often used as well to actually assess how the
06:39elephant is doing are they socializing well are they settling around or not yeah can i ask you why
06:45elephants are relocated in the first place i mean we have this thing called um animal diplomacy the soft
06:51power diplomacy that china does with their pandas here but when what we understand about this case in
06:57particular is that it was really the three elephants dara and amoy were relocated because it was part of a
07:04research and breeding program and i'm quite curious to know how meaningful these exchanges are do they
07:13meaningfully advance any kind of uh conservation research in elephants what is your perspective on this
07:21um well i i think for uh in the case of the panda as zoo negara uh so china has
07:29been sending out their
07:29pandas and then uh to all these different zoos and then the zoos in turn they have to they have
07:35to pay
07:35a certain amount actually to keep the panda and then they have to make sure they have the the welfare
07:40covered uh you know food wise facilities wise so the pandas in zoo negara i think managed to produce
07:47quite a number of babies so that's a good sign it means that the pandas are doing well there um
07:51so
07:54for uh other animals yeah for elephants in particular elephants yes it have there has been cases uh uh some
08:02of our elephants have been sent uh overseas uh i think i remember once was in 2008 or 2009 uh
08:12it was
08:13actually the bornean elephants that one one group of bornean elephants was sent uh overseas to one of
08:18the zoos there uh but maybe farina will be able to explain a bit more about the you know how
08:24the zoos uh
08:26that she works with yeah interacts with sabah uh the situation there um so for malaysia peninsula
08:33malaysia wise i i think this is the first time i heard of like the three elephants being sent overseas
08:41uh perhaps there are some cases in the past but it wasn't highlighted that much um and uh but
08:50between local zoos it happens very often like within the zoos in malaysia when they exchange animals that
08:57happens very often uh because sometimes yes due to uh reproduction they need to exchange some of the
09:05uh individuals um and uh in zoos overseas actually this is quite common as well so this is one way
09:12for
09:12them to ensure that the captive population yeah the the same male and female don't breed over and over
09:20and too often and then that then um there's no variation in the genetics so sometimes they will
09:27exchange one or two elephants so to mix up the gene pool a bit so uh zoos they do keep
09:35a record of you
09:36know this kind of um exchanges uh and it's also the government agencies as well that that keep uh
09:42elephants in captivity um there has been pushed for yes uh for for all this uh sharing of records you
09:51know
09:51to to to look at how uh elephants in captivity are being moved around and things like that um so
09:59uh i will say uh yes this is the first time for me to to hear about elephants from peninsula
10:06malaysia
10:07being uh sent to overseas and uh i was actually amazed with the response from the members of the public
10:14uh because if this happens 20 years back the response would be totally different yeah but this time
10:20you can see that it's very heartwarming everyone is calling uh they're worried about the welfare of
10:25the elephants they're calling to bring back the elephants to malaysia so what about you what would
10:31you consider to be the most responsible outcome for this case and i'm curious to know what lesson
10:38you would like um the people who are who've made the decision for this the policy makers the decision
10:45makers what lessons would you like them to take from this entire situation um i i think uh
10:57we need to also consider the the
11:01the physiology and the welfare of the elite the three elephants in the sense of when you move the
11:07elephants they actually undergo quite amount of stress moving because they're going to a new place you know
11:14they're strange sounds they are being put on board transportation and things like that
11:19um and and to bring them back is not an easy uh and the war as well because it takes
11:26a time for the
11:28elephants to actually uh settle down and and for their stress response to come down and suddenly you start
11:35moving them again and then they get all excited again and my concern is more on when we want to
11:41do this
11:45because i think that if they are not able to withstand the stress of moving they could actually die you
11:53know you know in the process so that is what we don't want so um so although you know i
12:00think it's a good
12:01thing that the members of public care for the elephants um but for for the process of moving the elephants
12:08back i i would
12:08recommend that you know we take uh precautions uh assess the elephant situation over a longer time
12:15make sure they settle down um my my studies on um elephants in peninsula malaysia those elephants that
12:23are being moved from conflict areas that translocate and release into the forest i i monitored them
12:29uh after the release uh for my studies i found that it takes a year for the elephant to actually
12:36settle down in the new place
12:37for their stress response to behave more normally like what the resident elephant's uh stress response
12:44would look like yeah i was looking at the hormone glucocorticoid at that time
12:50so uh that's why i'm a bit concerned uh if you move them before they they settle down or i
12:59if what happens if
13:00their stress response gets overloaded um so from studies done on humans yeah from for because we share
13:08the same hormone response in some ways um so sometimes humans get things like adrenal insufficiency
13:16uh and if they face a lot of shocking events for example a surgery or an accident uh and they
13:24their body
13:24they couldn't cope with it they can actually die you know in that process so my my concern is how
13:30what will it be for elephants if we keep moving around them around because for elephants uh between the zoos
13:37yes they do exchange um international zoos as well they will exchange elephants but they do it like
13:44only once or a few times in the lifetime of the elephant they don't do it like you know every
13:49week or things like that
13:50uh but just once in a while they will move the elephant to a different facilities uh so my caution
13:58will be yes let's monitor the three elephants make sure they they can cope with it before we start moving
14:06them back uh to manager yeah thank you so much for sharing some of your insights with us i really
14:12appreciate
14:13you taking time to talk to us today dr wong e pin there from nottingham university malaysia um
14:20we're going to take a quick break here and consider this we'll be back with more stay tuned
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