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Across Asia, elephant populations are in decline. In Malaysia, the pressures are mounting and their survival is under growing threat from habitat loss, conflict with humans, and the expansion of roads and plantations. To mark World Elephant Day 2025, we look at how science, policy, and public will can converge to secure the future of these gentle giants. On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Dr Wong Ee Phin, Associate Professor at University of Nottingham Malaysia and Principal Investigator for the Management & Ecology of Malaysian Elephants research project, along with Professor Ahimsa Campos-Arceiz, Professor & Principal Investigator of the Megafauna Ecology and Conservation group at the Xishuangbanna Tropical Botanical Garden in Yunnan, China.
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00:00Music
00:00Hello and good evening, I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This.
00:14This is the show where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of the day.
00:19Across Asia, elephant populations are in decline.
00:22And in Malaysia, the pressures are mounting and their survival is under growing threat from habitat loss,
00:31from conflict with humans and the expansion of roads and plantations.
00:36So this World Elephant Day, we're going to take a look at how science, policy and the public can converge
00:45to secure the future of these gentle giants.
00:47Joining me on the show today is Dr. Wong Yipin, who is an Associate Professor at University of Nottingham, Malaysia.
00:55She's the Principal Investigator for the Management and Ecology of Malaysian Elephants Research Project.
01:02I also have with me Professor Ahimsa Kampos-Arthaith,
01:05who is a Professor and Principal Investigator for the Megafauna Ecology and Conservation Group
01:11at the Sishuangpana Tropical Botanical Garden in Yunnan, China.
01:15Both of you, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining me here today.
01:19Yipin, let's start with you. Talk to me a little bit about the current status.
01:24So where are we at today in terms of Malaysia's wild Asian elephant population?
01:31Okay, in terms of Asian population globally, we have about 60,000 to 70,000 elephants.
01:38But 72% of these populations are in India and Sri Lanka.
01:42So the remaining populations in Southeast Asia are actually considered small populations.
01:48So Malaysia, we have about 1,500 elephants in the peninsula, another 1,500 in Sabah.
01:57I would say 1,500 is a good number, but we need to take care of this number.
02:02Otherwise, we might come into problems like isolation of populations,
02:07then genetic problems and things like that.
02:10So we have to be careful.
02:11So 1,500 for a peninsula and another 1,500 in Borneo.
02:17Is that a healthy number to have? What was it before? Has there been a decline?
02:24I think it's hard for us to estimate correctly how many elephants we have.
02:29But in terms of area, in the past 40 years ago, we used to have more areas where we have people and elephants living together.
02:38But we lost 68% of this range.
02:41And in the remaining range where we have people and elephants, two-thirds are experiencing human-elephant conflict.
02:48So that's why it's very important for us to work with the agriculture sector to support them
02:52so that they can live with elephants and we can preserve the remaining range of elephants in Peninsular Malaysia.
02:59Okay.
02:59Yeah.
02:59All right.
03:00Ahmza, if I can come to you.
03:03If, in fact, just now it's hard to really know, to understand the wild elephant population.
03:10Talk to me a little bit about that.
03:12Why is it so difficult for us to understand the population and demographic of wild elephants today?
03:19What threats do you see that they're facing in the wild?
03:24Yeah, it's very difficult to estimate the population size with accuracy.
03:28So then because of methodological constraints, it's very expensive and you've got a lot of effort to get a reliable estimate.
03:36It's getting easier right now, mainly with molecular techniques, with DNA.
03:42We can have a better picture.
03:44But until 10 years ago, our main narrative was let's not focus on the numbers
03:51because it will take too much effort to get an answer that we don't trust very much.
03:55Let's focus on the area.
03:56So let's start to see where we used to have elephants and where we don't have elephants now.
04:00So what we know is that in Malaysia there has been a decline of the spaces that used to have elephants.
04:06Just think about the peninsula of Malaysia in the 1940s was 80% forest.
04:10Now it's maybe 45%.
04:12So then in many places there's less forest, less wildlife.
04:16You know, it's inevitable.
04:19And then in the last few decades probably the decline has slowed down a lot.
04:24And probably, and I think people know better than me, it's declining a little bit,
04:28but it's not drastically declining right now.
04:30But there's always a risk of fragmentation, of getting very small populations isolated
04:36and families being left alone, which in the long term can lead to a small collapse of populations.
04:42So then you want to have the more connected the better.
04:46So then you want to have one big connected population better than five small isolated populations.
04:51Why is that the case?
04:54Are the isolated populations more vulnerable to threats?
04:59Yes.
05:00Yes.
05:01Because when the smaller the population is, any disturbance could actually affect the number of the members in the herd.
05:10And in terms of genetic, even people, we need genetic exchange.
05:18We need the diversity.
05:18We need the diversity, yes.
05:19Yes, that's right.
05:20So that they can stay healthy and able to withstand changes in the environment.
05:25You know, with things like global climate change and also habitat loss.
05:31So there's a lot of challenges out there for wildlife.
05:34And when we are able to connect the habitat, the forest, we are giving them a chance to survive longer into the future.
05:43How big are herds?
05:46How big do the herds tend to be?
05:48Or how big can they get?
05:49It depends.
05:51We have seen small herds like just two or three elephants up to herds of more than 50 elephants in one.
06:00That's amazing.
06:01So it depends.
06:02Okay, so you brought up about people and elephants living together.
06:06And I think human-elephant conflict tends to dominate the headlines.
06:13Whenever there's a conflict, it goes straight into the news and it becomes headlines and shared and it's viral.
06:18But there are also examples of coexistence.
06:21And I want to talk to you about that.
06:23From your research, what strategies have you seen that show the most promise in reducing human-elephant conflict?
06:32Co-existence with elephants.
06:35I would say in Malaysia, there are a few places that we see that already have that coexistence with elephants.
06:42But sometimes we do not realise it.
06:44But when I went to the ground, I was actually amazed at how resilient the community is.
06:51But of course, when you talk about elephants, people often think about conflict.
06:56They think about negative things.
06:58They think about destruction.
06:59They are scared.
07:00And I can understand because elephants are big.
07:02They are strong.
07:04But from my research, when I track elephants, I don't see them going out of their way to cause issues for people.
07:10In fact, they will try to avoid people whenever it's possible in my study sites.
07:14So, what I'm trying to do in my project is try to increase the sense of safety for people and for elephants in the landscape.
07:23At the same time, we know that the agriculture sector wants to protect their crops.
07:28But at the same time, the elephants are finding it difficult to navigate the landscape.
07:31So, one of the win-win approaches that we are proposing is to have safe passages for elephants to pass and have some food banks,
07:40which is like plots of grass and foods that elephants like to eat, along the way to attract them to those areas,
07:46to guide them back to the forest and their roaming area.
07:50So, this is something that we have started with the plantations and we are monitoring right now.
07:55So, I may need a bit more time before I can get the data to show, yes, this is what we have.
08:00So, you are working with plantations at the moment.
08:02I am, yes.
08:03Well, talk to me about that.
08:04So, I understand you're working closely with plantations in Johor to address elephant movement and the crop damage you mentioned earlier.
08:12Yes.
08:12How open have these plantations been to adopting some of the strategies that you've recommended?
08:19And I guess also, how has the collaboration with plantations,
08:25what has that revealed to you about the practicalities of coexistence with these giants?
08:32Okay.
08:33For plantations, I think when we first engaged with plantations,
08:38at the time Ahimsa was around as well,
08:40I think what we found out that plantations,
08:43they actually don't have that deep grudge against elephants.
08:47All they want is to be able to earn a living, right?
08:52So, if we can help them safeguard some parts of their crops,
08:56I guess, so that they don't suffer losses.
09:00Right.
09:01And if there's some parts of the area that can be allowed for elephants to pass through,
09:06I think that is a nice win-win situation.
09:09Because right now, forests in Peninsular Malaysia,
09:13some of them are shrinking, some of them are fragmented.
09:16So, we do need to work with the agriculture sector to try to reconnect some of these forest patches
09:21to allow the elephant to move.
09:23So, the plantations will benefit because they'll have kind of more structured movement.
09:30It's almost like corridors of movement.
09:32Is that it?
09:33From this method, we believe it's a win-win situation in a sense that
09:38elephants get to move and feed,
09:40and the plantation will be able to hopefully manage the conflict to those areas only.
09:45And the other areas, the other parts of the plantation,
09:48hopefully they will be able to safeguard it.
09:50Of course, they still need to do their patrolling,
09:53and they have their other mitigation measures like electric fences, ditches.
09:57But what we find is a challenge for elephants with landscape,
10:01it's actually their movement and their feeding area.
10:04And elephants need to socialize, they need to meet up.
10:07Yeah, so we are recommending to have small food banks
10:12to lead them to a bigger patch of food banks where they can stay longer,
10:15and then they can break up into smaller groups again.
10:17And this mimics their behavior in the rainforest, which we have studied before.
10:22So, talk to me about that, about their behavior
10:25and how observations of the behavior can be implemented into strategies to avoid conflict.
10:29Can I explain a little bit?
10:31Yes, sure.
10:32So, this is really inspiring work, what is happening now with MIME,
10:35and your whole interaction between the researchers,
10:38the conservation organizations, and the plantations.
10:41So, and a few things about human-elephant interactions.
10:46When is that conflict is always going to happen?
10:49So then, whenever you have agriculture and elephants,
10:52you should expect some amount of conflict.
10:54Okay, so then, because elephants consume all of the edible crops we produce,
10:59so then, whenever we produce anything that has nutritional value
11:02or is fodder for them, they will come to consume.
11:07So then, when we talk about coexistence,
11:10we are not talking about the absence of conflict,
11:12we are talking about tolerable conflict.
11:14So, it's a level of conflict that is sustainable both for people and for elephants.
11:18Because there is no way to have lack of conflict life.
11:22You know, life involves trade-offs and many compromises.
11:25So then, in this case, the idea is that we want to have a situation
11:27in which the amount of conflict doesn't compromise people's livelihood or safety,
11:33and elephants can still do what they do,
11:36which has been a big herbivore eating a lot of food and a lot of crops every day.
11:39So then, in this case, finding situations in which people are willing to let elephants use their space
11:46and then access some resources involve probably some cost for the plantations,
11:52but also some benefits.
11:54So then, for example, intense conflict can be socially very costly.
11:58You know, if your staff are angry or scared, you know.
12:03So then, it's good to find ways that you can reduce the intensity of the conflict.
12:07And I would say that in Malaysia, the conflict is not very intense.
12:13It's manageable, and I think it presents a clear opportunity for success
12:19in terms of how to mitigate the conflict.
12:21Because what Ipene was saying is that we have different levels of conflict.
12:25So we call it about kind of a superficial conflict, which is just about economic cost.
12:29And then we have, like, an underlying conflict that involves more with history and more emotional
12:35and things that have to do with not what's happening now, but what happened before and accumulates,
12:40and deep-rooted things that have to do with identity and other things.
12:43So then, in Malaysia, a lot of the conflict is at the superficial level.
12:47Okay, that's good, right?
12:49That is the easy to fix.
12:50So then, that's great.
12:51So then, I think very important always to understand what kind of conflict you have
12:55to design, customize solutions for that context.
12:59Okay, so then we cannot just copy-paste what happened in India
13:02and apply here without thinking how to implement.
13:06Okay.
13:06Because the ecological conditions are different, the human conditions are different,
13:10the elephant behavior is different because they learn and they have a history.
13:14So it's important to understand what is the issue to think about how we can solve it locally.
13:18So because you've worked in different countries, you see that different countries have to take
13:23different approaches to managing this conflict.
13:26Give me an example of somewhere who would be doing it differently.
13:29So, for example, I think Malaysia is a good one in terms that a lot of the land is managed by big companies
13:34and then these companies don't have emotions.
13:37They just look at the bottom line.
13:38So then they just want to make sure that everything's fine, that the stakeholders are supportive,
13:43that their reputation is good.
13:45So then, for them, doing good is a benefit.
13:47You know, just being seen as doing good is almost like income.
13:52It's a positive thing for them.
13:55And then, you know, the situation, for example, I work a lot in China.
13:58I'm based in China and a lot of the work we do is in China.
14:01There is much more about human safety.
14:03So then it's a much more fragmented landscape and there is more contact between people and elephants.
14:09So then our main focus there is about preventing human-elephant encounters, physical encounters.
14:16Because you don't want to meet an elephant in the middle of the night, in a dark place.
14:21Okay.
14:21So then that is, you know, what is happening in China is mainly using technology to monitor the elephant movement at a very fine scale,
14:29using drones and using social media and kind of being able to communicate the elephant movement to people to prevent people going to those places.
14:41So then trying to avoid the physical encounter.
14:44Oh, so in a way, keeping humans away from elephants, as opposed to keeping elephants away from humans.
14:52100%, yeah.
14:52So then that's exactly how we present in China, in which right now and for the last 10 years or so, elephants are being very, very strictly protected.
15:04And the authorities, yeah, when elephants go somewhere, they make sure that people are not on the way.
15:08Okay.
15:09And then the economic cost is compensated.
15:12So then the economic cost is less important because human safety, when you have human safety concerns, the economy becomes kind of secondary.
15:20Yes.
15:21And then in this case, the authorities have resources to compensate farmers for a big part of the cost.
15:27So people want to feel safe.
15:29And there are other situations, if I can comment, like in Sri Lanka, where everything is much, much kind of low tech and much, much more cost effective.
15:39And what has been very effective is to work with communities to give them the responsibility to protect themselves with electric fences.
15:46And these are things that require a lot of maintenance, require a lot of, it's very kind of intensive work.
15:52Okay.
15:52But the point is not to do it externally, not to come the government to do something for the community, but.
15:58For the community themselves.
16:00Can the government or NGOs work with the community to let, kind of give them the capacity to handle the situation, but also the responsibility.
16:09So then they will take action.
16:10Why is that important for the communities to do it themselves?
16:13Because they can do much better.
16:15You cannot outsource.
16:16If you hire a company to manage your fence, the fence requires a lot of attention.
16:20You need to have very strong incentive to do it well.
16:22If you are just paying someone peanuts, then you will get kind of cheap work.
16:27If you do it yourself because it matters to you, because it's your safety, it's your livelihood, and then you can do it as a community, there is a much higher guarantee of success.
16:37That's such an interesting way of policy to be designed to incorporate behavior, both human and elephant as well.
16:44When we talk about elephant behavior, particularly Malaysian, wild Asian elephants, and the movements that you were talking about, do we understand how elephants move and migrate?
16:58And when we think about what we know about them, is that incorporated into the way we're building our roads and infrastructure?
17:07Ah, very good questions.
17:11I would say in Peninsular Malaysia, we have the Central Forest Spine Master Plan.
17:16I think it's a very good plan.
17:19So during AHIMSA's time as the PI, we actually embarked on the monitoring of the collared elephants.
17:26And there's a good paper that came up from the monitoring that shows that how's the ecological status of some of these corridors.
17:33And these are the findings that were shared with the government.
17:36So the Forestry Department has since then revamped the Central Forest Spine, have recommended new corridors, they have thickened out some of the corridors that are not functioning anymore, and replaced it by other corridors.
17:51Wow.
17:51So there are efforts like this by the government agency that I think we should give credit to for all this effort that's going on.
18:00So what MIM is currently doing to help support some of these efforts is, yes, through our engagement with stakeholders on the ground.
18:07And we are continuing the monitoring of elephants at more micro level, yeah, how they use the landscape.
18:15And we use this information to share on where are the possible areas for elephants to move and their feeding areas together with the authorities.
18:26So what we want to do is work together with the stakeholders.
18:29In this case, it's in Johor, as our study site, to find ways for people to live with elephants and to allow the elephants to move through some parts of the landscape.
18:40I think actually Johor has a lot of self-initiative already in this aspect, because when I was there, I can find areas whereby elephants can feed in.
18:51So what we are doing with the plantation is just to complement more of these areas, because the elephants constantly need to move.
18:59They don't stay too long in one spot.
19:01So that is their behaviour.
19:04So by recognising that they need to constantly move, we suggest that maybe it's good we have more of these feeding grounds closer to the forest area to allow the elephants to then move in that landscape.
19:17I see.
19:17Yeah.
19:18Okay, so how do we ensure that elephants are safe away from the current infrastructure, the current roads?
19:27Yes, the roads.
19:28I think a lot of roads in Peninsular Malaysia have been built for a very long time.
19:35Like there are a few new stretches, and usually the consultant had to do an environmental impact assessment, even for the ECRL line and all.
19:47So among the infrastructure engineers, they have a hierarchy that they look at.
19:55The first is to avoid, if possible, to avoid from fragmenting the forest.
20:01And if you can't avoid only, then you need to mitigate or compensate.
20:06So if it involves destruction of some habitat, then you need to enrich other habitats for the wildlife, for example.
20:13Or if you can try to minimise it, for example, build a tunnel for the road so that wildlife can still pass above and the train and the cars can still move.
20:25Or the other way around, whereby they build wildlife crossing.
20:30So wildlife crossing is very difficult for the elephant or the animals to cross the road, and they need to use other structures to facilitate the crossings.
20:39Do they work, wildlife crossings, particularly for elephants?
20:43For elephants, there are some results that have been published by other researchers, including Professor Ruben Clemens and others in the universities.
20:54It shows that elephants do use the wildlife crossing, but not all wildlife.
21:00There are some wildlife that are still hesitating to use this kind of wildlife crossing.
21:06So hence, there's need for more research to see what are the issues and how can we facilitate to ensure that some of these wildlife can still be able to be robust in terms of their population and genetics-wise.
21:19What I'm hearing from the both of you, sorry, is that throughout the years, there's been so much work and effort put into research.
21:28So having data and evidence has really helped inform policy and how we design solutions for humans to live and coexist with elephants.
21:38But I'm curious to know if there are new research on the horizon, new things that excite you about the study of the ecology of Asian elephants.
21:52Is there anything that you think might change the way we will protect them in the next decade or so?
21:58So more and more we are focusing from the human dimension, human psychology aspect, and what does it make people being able to live with elephants?
22:10This is some of the questions that my PhD student, Natasha Azulaika, has just completed her PhD and submitted on.
22:18And we're hoping to be able to continue to grow that field of research.
22:24So besides looking at people, we are also examining technologies nowadays because we have AI, machine learning and things like that.
22:32I collaborate with researchers from computer sciences, from engineering to see if there are ways for us to set up sensors that can give us real-time data on elephant movement or presence in certain areas.
22:45For example, in areas where it is very sensitive for people, for example, railway tracks or roads.
22:54So these are the areas where elephants get onto the road or on the tracks, it could endanger lives.
23:01Yeah, so if we can have sensors in such places, it could hopefully help to increase safety for people and for elephants.
23:07Wonderful. What about you?
23:09Well, can I say the things that were more exciting for the last few years and the ones that will be more for the next few years?
23:15Yes.
23:16So for the last maybe 15 years, what has been very exciting is that we have gained a lot of understanding of the spatial ecology, the movement of elephants.
23:25And Malaysia has been very strong in that area.
23:27So I think probably Malaysia is the, after Sri Lanka, the place where movement ecology is best understood.
23:33And movement is very important because these animals occupy bigger spaces.
23:37So then movement and food, you know, movement and food is everything for to understand these animals.
23:41And then we have gained a lot of understanding and now we know that we used to have a very naive image about what elephants like.
23:48Okay.
23:49We used to think that elephants like good forests.
23:51Elephants, so we think about Tamanegara or Royal Bloom.
23:55We think elephants like they have kind of primary tropical rainforests and elephants like forests, but also they like not forests or they like bad forests, if you're going to be degraded forests.
24:06So they like that interface between the forest and the open area and understanding that with a lot of data has been very important to move into more realistic management of the human elephant interactions.
24:17The other thing has been what E.P. has mentioned about the social dimensions, understanding how human, the human component in the human elephant conflict and interactions is key and how these are three very complex systems, the environment, humans and elephants.
24:35Each one of them is very variable.
24:37You cannot just make strong assumptions.
24:39You need to understand what is happening in one place to take action in that place.
24:43So then increasing the complexity of the human side has been a big move forward.
24:47Okay.
24:48And then if I think about the next few years, what I would like to see, technology is key.
24:54So then we are moving and I think we all know how AI and sensors are and data management is disrupting our daily life.
25:02And then in the case of elephants, if we are able to enforce the law and prevent poaching of elephants, you know, because right now poaching remains a problem.
25:14It's not anywhere as important as conflict, but still it's a problem.
25:19So then if we are able to not be worried about poaching, we start to monitor elephants in very fine detail and then share this information with the public in a way that can increase, you know, management of the conflict and particularly safety of people much better.
25:33So it would be great if in the next few years we are able to use the technology we have to focus on the conflict, which now is being prevented because we don't want to share too much data about where elephants are because there is a risk of poaching.
25:46And that's a problem still in Malaysia?
25:51There have been cases of elephant poaching and I think Pelitan have captured three groups of elephant poachers.
25:58These are people specializing targeting elephants and they have big rifles and bullets and things like that.
26:05Are they poaching for elephant tusks?
26:08Yes.
26:09So there have been cases in the past, but I have not been following how's the situation on the ground recently.
26:17It's not as important as conflict, but it still matters.
26:21But once if that's taken care of, then the data can be used to move into the next level of database management.
26:29And then the other thing that I find very exciting against the social aspect is the conservation ethos.
26:36I think conservation has become mainstream in society.
26:39There's Malaysia, here we are on TV on a good time talking about elephant conservation as a very important topic for society.
26:47And I hope the public is interested.
26:49I hope it's not a question.
26:51No one wonder why this matters.
26:53Why we're doing it, yes.
26:54So it matters when to find the ways to do it.
26:56And then that allows us to think about much more complex solutions in terms of compromises
27:01and thinking about how a company can choose not to make the maximum amount of money in the short term
27:06but being sustainable and doing good.
27:08So then those things are going to make things much more feasible for long term conservation and human well-life consistency.
27:15Absolutely.
27:16I see where you're coming from.
27:18Both of you, thank you so much for coming on the show and highlighting this.
27:21I appreciate that you've taken the conversation to a much more nuanced area in terms of conservation preference.
27:29Thank you both for your time.
27:30A big pleasure.
27:31Thank you so much for inviting us.
27:32You're welcome.
27:33That's all the time we have for you on this episode of Consider This.
27:36I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening.
27:38Thank you so much for watching.
27:39Good night.
27:40.
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