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00:00Hi, I'm Kumi Taguchi on this episode of Insight.
00:03Jealousy and envy.
00:04How do we manage the emotions?
00:07He couldn't control her anymore.
00:10So he killed her.
00:11You've admitted to being jealous in past relationships.
00:14I was always afraid that if they got a taste of life without me,
00:19that they would realise that they didn't really need me.
00:21You decided to open up your relationship.
00:23We were very drawn towards the excitement
00:26and the connection aspect of non-monogamy.
00:29Some are envious.
00:30Women in particular, they come up to me and they sort of whisper to me,
00:33I didn't think I'd like you.
00:35The ones that are jealous,
00:37those people aren't in a good space in their life.
00:44Kyla, you're a self-made businesswoman.
00:46What do you do?
00:47I have the very unusual but very pleasurable job
00:50of being an ambassador and an educator specialising in champagne,
00:53so drinking champagne for a living.
00:55Two businesses.
00:56I'm probably better known by my moniker as a champagne dame.
01:00So educating, teaching people about champagne,
01:03taking people to Paris and out to the champagne region
01:05and also I have a business importing champagne,
01:09retail distribution,
01:11a life centred around the good stuff, the bubbly stuff.
01:13That sounds amazing.
01:14How did you get that job?
01:16Well, there really weren't any jobs in champagne when I started,
01:19so 20 years this year is my celebration
01:21and started my life in banking and finance
01:24but in 2005 read an article on Napoleon Bonaparte
01:27and his love affair with champagne
01:29and decided I would read every book there was to read on champagne
01:32and when I ran out of books I wrote a letter to a man
01:34who'd written my favourite book
01:35and he said,
01:35get on a plane,
01:36come to Paris,
01:37come out to champagne
01:38and I'll teach you everything I know.
01:40So I bought a one-way ticket to Paris,
01:43I went out,
01:44I met with this man
01:45and I started again.
01:46So crazy life.
01:48I divided my life between Paris and champagne
01:51and a little bit of time in the French Riviera
01:53and had a very colourful life.
01:56How do others react to what you do?
01:59It's a mix, you know,
02:01and I think like anything,
02:03the closer people are to you,
02:04I think there's a respect
02:07and a,
02:08not so much an envy
02:10but an admiration
02:11and I think those of you
02:12who are a little further away
02:13who see this
02:14or who see social media
02:16or who see you on TV
02:17or in Monaco
02:18or in Paris,
02:19I think there tends to be more
02:21a jealousy
02:22or more of an envy.
02:24Women come up and they go,
02:25you're a genius,
02:26you know,
02:26you get to legitimately drink champagne
02:27from 9am to 9am
02:28without any repercussions
02:31but some are envious.
02:33You know,
02:33you'd be amazed at,
02:34you know,
02:35if I host a champagne masterclass
02:36or a champagne dinner,
02:37one of the most common things
02:39that women,
02:40women in particular,
02:41say after I finish a presentation
02:42is they come up to me
02:44and they sort of whisper to me,
02:45I didn't think I'd like you
02:47but I do,
02:48you know,
02:48you're a nice person.
02:49Here's you mixing it up
02:51with A-list celebrities.
02:55Even Sofia Vergara comes off
02:57kind of looking second best there.
02:59Do you understand
03:01why people...
03:02Oh, we love Matt.
03:03Isn't that amazing?
03:05Do you understand
03:06why people might envy you?
03:08Yeah, I do, I do.
03:10I mean, it's...
03:11I have a very unusual lifestyle.
03:13You know, living in Paris,
03:14one of the first people I met
03:15was John Galliano,
03:17working for Dom Perignon
03:18and being ambassador
03:19for some of the biggest champagne
03:20brands in the world
03:21and spending a lot of time
03:22on super yachts in Monaco
03:23and travelling.
03:24I can see that, you know,
03:25women would be envious
03:27of the life that I live.
03:29Grace, you were a musician
03:30and an actor.
03:31When you were 13,
03:32you appeared on The Voice Kids.
03:34This is you.
03:36When the lights turn down,
03:39they don't know
03:40what they heard.
03:42Strike a match,
03:43play it loud,
03:45giving love to the world.
03:48We'll be raising our heads
03:53Grace, how did you go?
03:55I ended up in the final two
03:57on Team Delta
03:58and the top six overall
04:00in the competition.
04:01So, made it all the way
04:02to the grand final
04:03and it was probably
04:05the most surreal experience
04:07of my life.
04:08Yeah, it was a lot of fun.
04:09And you travelled to the US
04:10with Delta, I understand.
04:11So you were pretty young
04:12doing all of that stuff.
04:13Yes.
04:14The prize was a trip to LA
04:16and so we got to go
04:17to Disneyland,
04:18Universal Studios
04:19and Delta also was living
04:21in the Hollywood Hills
04:23at the time.
04:24So my family and I
04:25got to spend the day
04:26with her playing
04:27at her piano
04:27and she had all these croissants
04:29and it was the stuff
04:31of dreams, yeah.
04:32That is a lot of success
04:34at a young age.
04:36Did you feel envied
04:37by friends and family?
04:39I think before
04:40having that experience,
04:41I understood that I could sing
04:43but I didn't think of it
04:44to be anything that was greater
04:46than someone else's,
04:47you know, talent.
04:48I think once I was on TV,
04:50it felt that the ways
04:51that people perceived me,
04:53it was almost as if
04:54I had to diminish
04:55my achievements a lot
04:56and I felt like at school,
04:58especially being as young
04:59as I was,
05:00teachers would often
05:01want to talk about it
05:02but students kind of felt
05:03as if my success
05:05was their loss.
05:06You did well at school.
05:08When you left,
05:09you studied musical theatre.
05:10What was that environment like?
05:1320 students
05:14all in pursuit
05:15of being a star.
05:17I mean,
05:18it's a breeding ground
05:20for jealousy and envy.
05:22I think being
05:23in such a close proximity
05:25to people
05:25and feeling as though
05:27the support
05:28that I would often give
05:29my peers
05:30when it came to performances
05:31and being the first one
05:33to give a standing ovation,
05:34I didn't feel like
05:35that was necessarily
05:36reciprocated to me
05:37because it felt like
05:39people thought that
05:40they'd make my head explode
05:41if they were to
05:42give that praise.
05:44So I think
05:44I often felt like
05:45there was a lot of things
05:47unsaid or
05:48validation that was withheld
05:50that I could never
05:51understand why.
05:52Do you think there was
05:52jealousy towards you?
05:54I think there definitely was
05:56and I think that
05:57I knew how people
05:58would perceive me
05:59in a group environment
06:00which would feel like
06:01I would be taking
06:02or stealing the attention
06:03when my personality
06:05I think is just someone
06:06who's quite generous
06:07and wanting to facilitate
06:09a positive vibe
06:11for everybody
06:11but to those that were
06:13maybe a bit more insecure
06:14would always perceive
06:15that as if I was
06:16you know
06:17overshadowing them.
06:19Justin, in your past
06:21relationships
06:21you described yourself
06:22as being very jealous.
06:24What do you put that
06:25down to?
06:26Like a lot of people
06:27I grew up in a broken home.
06:29My father and mother
06:30got divorced.
06:31I think that led to
06:32that huge feeling
06:34of insecurity
06:34and a low self-worth
06:36feelings of
06:37I'm never going to
06:38be good enough.
06:39The people that I'm with
06:40are just with me
06:41for you know
06:42ulterior motives
06:43and I think that
06:44ultimately that insecurity
06:46is what leads
06:47to pretty intense jealousy.
06:49When you were
06:50in a relationship
06:51with someone
06:52who loved you
06:53how would you feel?
06:54I would never feel
06:56what they said about me
06:57or how they felt
06:58about me was true
06:59because I couldn't
07:00see that in myself
07:02and I think my greatest
07:03fear was that
07:04my partner
07:06or anyone around me
07:07would see me
07:08the way that I saw myself
07:09and that was my greatest fear
07:11and so
07:11I was always afraid
07:13that if they got a taste
07:14of life without me
07:16that they would realise
07:18that they didn't
07:19really need me.
07:20Angel,
07:21you're a clinical psychologist.
07:24Can insecurity
07:25trigger jealousy?
07:26When we feel insecure
07:28we question our own
07:29self-worth,
07:30we question our
07:31relationships
07:32and our abilities
07:33and these feelings
07:35can lead us
07:36to fear
07:37losing something
07:39or someone
07:40that we hold
07:41really dear
07:41and that could
07:43certainly lead
07:44to feelings of jealousy.
07:45We often say
07:47we're jealous
07:47when we're perhaps
07:48envious.
07:49What's the difference
07:50between the two?
07:52Jealousy is a
07:53very powerful
07:55passionate feeling
07:56mixed with
07:57anger,
07:58anxiety
07:59plus a fear
08:00of losing
08:02someone
08:03or something
08:03that we hold dear.
08:06Envy on the other hand
08:07is more of a yearning,
08:09a wanting
08:10of something
08:11that we want to have
08:12but we don't
08:13currently have.
08:14So I might feel jealous
08:16when my partner
08:18is paying
08:19special attention
08:20to his co-worker
08:21for example
08:22whereas I might be
08:24envious
08:24of a friend
08:26of mine
08:26who has
08:27a very positive
08:27relationship
08:28with their parents
08:29which I don't
08:30currently have.
08:32Is it common
08:33for us to misuse
08:34the words
08:35envy and jealousy?
08:36I'm not the
08:37word or emotion
08:38police.
08:39Both emotions
08:40are very unpleasant
08:41to be felt
08:42and they can feel
08:43very powerful
08:45and passionate.
08:45I'd like to think
08:47of jealousy
08:47as a triangle
08:48where there's
08:50almost always
08:51a third party
08:52that's threatening
08:53a primary
08:55relationship
08:56whereas envy
08:58to me
08:58is a bit
08:59more like
09:00a spotlight
09:01or an uplight
09:02from the ground
09:03to a stage.
09:04It's more
09:04one directional
09:05and it's more
09:06aspirational
09:07towards something
09:08that we want
09:10but we can't have.
09:11Are jealousy
09:13and envy
09:13negative emotions?
09:15All emotions
09:16jealousy
09:17and envy
09:17are just
09:19normal human
09:20emotions.
09:21All of us
09:21feel them
09:22from time to time.
09:23Having said that
09:24I do think
09:25that when we
09:26act solely
09:28out of jealousy
09:29and envy
09:29we can act
09:31very impulsively
09:32and so
09:32behaviour
09:33stemming out
09:34of jealousy
09:34and envy
09:36can have
09:36a very negative
09:37impact on
09:38ourselves
09:38and other people.
09:39Let's meet Kate.
09:41She proudly
09:42calls herself
09:43the Queen
09:43of Jealousy.
09:47In school
09:47I was like
09:48a stumpy
09:49nerdy kid.
09:50I had a haircut
09:51which was sort
09:52of like a bowl
09:53cut.
09:54I would look
09:55at the other
09:55girls with
09:56their incredible
09:56long blonde
09:57hair
09:57thin and
09:59athletic
09:59and I felt
10:00like I wanted
10:01to be them.
10:06Hi!
10:07Hi!
10:08As a writer
10:08I used to walk
10:09into bookshops
10:10and look around
10:11and think
10:11what that
10:12fuckwit's
10:12written a book
10:13why haven't
10:14I written
10:14a book?
10:15I'm the
10:16Queen of
10:16Jealousy.
10:17Yeah,
10:18I mean
10:19I love
10:19my brother
10:20to pieces
10:20but there
10:21are days
10:22when I'm
10:22jealous of
10:23him
10:23when I
10:23think my
10:23parents
10:24love him
10:25more than
10:25they love
10:25me.
10:26And I
10:27felt a weird
10:28twinge of
10:28jealousy
10:29towards my
10:29daughter.
10:30I remember
10:31thinking
10:31here she is
10:32in the pool
10:32in a bikini
10:33her beautiful
10:34long limbs
10:35and I was
10:36sucking my
10:37stomach in
10:37so hard.
10:38There is
10:39no serum
10:39in the
10:39world
10:40that can
10:40give me
10:40back
10:41that
10:41glorious
10:41youth.
10:42I did
10:43have to
10:43analyse
10:44it
10:44for a while
10:44before I
10:45realised
10:45that I
10:46was jealous
10:46not of
10:47my daughter
10:47but of
10:48the pure
10:48possibility
10:49that women
10:49that age
10:50have.
10:50And also
10:51this bittersweet
10:52nostalgia
10:53for the
10:54woman that
10:54I once
10:55was.
10:57I do
10:58yearn for
10:58my 27
10:59year old
10:59self.
11:00That
11:01effortless
11:01beauty
11:02that you
11:02have that
11:03you don't
11:03realise
11:03at the
11:04time.
11:05I would
11:05love to
11:06have a
11:06week back
11:06in my
11:07old body.
11:07I miss
11:08having
11:09babies.
11:09I miss
11:10the
11:10beautiful
11:10glorious
11:11messy
11:11responsibility
11:12of all
11:13of that
11:13of being
11:14madly
11:14in love.
11:15I look
11:16at all
11:17these
11:17photos
11:17and I'm
11:18jealous
11:19of myself.
11:20Next
11:20year I'll
11:21be 60.
11:22I don't
11:22care what
11:23anyone says.
11:24We all
11:24think about
11:25what we
11:25look like
11:25as we
11:26age.
11:28I have
11:29been awash
11:30with jealousy
11:30most of
11:31my life.
11:32Not an
11:32attractive
11:32quality but
11:33I own it
11:34and it's
11:34actually what
11:35motivated me
11:35to end up
11:36writing my
11:37book.
11:37I do
11:38not think
11:38people should
11:39feel ashamed
11:40to feel
11:40envy or
11:40jealousy.
11:41It's just
11:41another emotion
11:42and if you
11:43keep it
11:43inside it's
11:44going to
11:44burn you
11:45up.
11:45Get it
11:46out people.
11:48Sadie that
11:49was your
11:49mum Kate.
11:50How's the
11:51boogie boarding?
11:51Go mum.
11:53Did you
11:53know she
11:54envied you?
11:55No definitely
11:56not at the
11:57time.
11:58She hid
11:58that rather
11:59well.
12:00I think
12:01there's
12:01that really
12:01interesting
12:02distinction
12:03between
12:03more of
12:04a malicious
12:04jealousy
12:05and then
12:06that
12:06playful
12:06jealousy.
12:07So when
12:08she told
12:08me that
12:08she was
12:09jealous of
12:09me it
12:10was
12:10definitely
12:10not the
12:10malicious
12:11kind.
12:12It
12:12definitely
12:12never had
12:13a negative
12:14impact on
12:15me at all.
12:15do you
12:16ever
12:16experience
12:17jealousy
12:17or envy?
12:18I think
12:19probably a
12:19lot you
12:20know as
12:21a teenager
12:21I went
12:22through that
12:22similar to
12:23hearing your
12:23story you
12:24know if
12:24there was
12:24someone on
12:25the voice
12:26would be
12:26like oh
12:26you get
12:27to go
12:28holiday
12:28that's
12:28pretty
12:29cool.
12:30But I
12:31think for
12:31the most
12:31part my
12:32mum has
12:33raised me
12:33both my
12:34parents to
12:34not really
12:35care about
12:36what other
12:36people think
12:37so I
12:38guess I've
12:39always just
12:39kind of
12:39been who
12:40I want
12:41to be
12:42but yeah I
12:43guess sort
12:43of in that
12:43playful tone
12:44as well
12:44like I'm
12:45jealous of
12:45my partner's
12:46incredible hair
12:47and killer
12:47dance moves
12:48but I can
12:49assure you
12:49that's not
12:49yes with
12:50malicious intent.
12:52Is there
12:53anyone in
12:54your life
12:54you feel
12:54maybe a
12:55twinge of
12:55envy
12:56towards?
12:57Well
12:58currently my
12:59mother is
13:00poolside with
13:00a bajito
13:01in hand I
13:02think that we
13:02can all agree
13:03that that's
13:03something to
13:04be envious
13:05of but she's
13:06a journalist
13:07and a writer
13:08and she
13:09writes in
13:09just the
13:10most beautiful
13:10articulate
13:11manner so I
13:12definitely envy
13:13that but yeah
13:14I know she's
13:14the best and
13:15she's always
13:15taught me to
13:16make everything
13:17in life hilarious
13:17I'm definitely
13:18not envious of
13:19her height
13:19though she's
13:20very small
13:21and Carla I
13:22think I'm
13:22envious of
13:23your job
13:23now so yes
13:25motivator
13:26motivator
13:27again no
13:27malicious intent
13:30Angel we've
13:31heard there that
13:32jealousy can be
13:33a motivator
13:33can it be a
13:34positive?
13:35It can often
13:36tell us what
13:37we're missing
13:37or what's
13:38important to
13:39us or what
13:39we hold dear
13:41noticing feelings
13:42of jealousy
13:42can help us
13:43face our fears
13:45reckon with
13:46the things that
13:47we haven't done
13:49or could be
13:49doing to
13:50hold the people
13:51we love tighter
13:52for example
13:52I also think
13:54that feelings
13:54of envy
13:55can be a
13:56massive
13:57motivator
13:59Michelle when
14:00your grandfather
14:00died he owned
14:02a number of
14:02pubs and hotels
14:03who did he
14:04leave them to?
14:06My grandfather
14:07was an Irish
14:08publican who
14:09came out from
14:10Ireland with my
14:11grandmother
14:11and he owned
14:13a number of
14:13Sydney hotels
14:14and he left
14:16in the Irish
14:17tradition
14:1850% of the
14:20estate to
14:21my uncle
14:22and 25%
14:24each to
14:24my mother
14:25and my aunt
14:27my uncle
14:29put a proposal
14:30to them
14:31and bought
14:31them out
14:32so his wealth
14:34grew considerably
14:36he had a
14:37big water
14:38frontage in
14:38Sydney
14:39a beach
14:41house in
14:42the northern
14:42beaches
14:43and then he
14:43took the
14:44business to
14:45Vancouver
14:45and what
14:46happened to
14:47your mum
14:48and aunt?
14:48My mother
14:49was a
14:50single mother
14:51she had to
14:52work full time
14:53raising two
14:54children on
14:55her own
14:56you know
14:57we had to
14:58make ends
14:59meet
14:59we would
15:00go to school
15:01at five years
15:02of age by
15:03ourselves
15:04come home
15:04to an empty
15:05home
15:06mum was
15:06always at
15:07the office
15:08so you know
15:09you had to
15:10grow up
15:10very quickly
15:11so I had
15:12a brother
15:13and not
15:14having that
15:14father figure
15:15I think
15:16had a big
15:17impact on
15:18David
15:18and sadly
15:21he had a
15:22drug overdose
15:22when he was
15:2323 and I
15:24was 21
15:25so from
15:26that point
15:27I kind of
15:28became my
15:29mother's
15:29mother at
15:31a very young
15:31age looking
15:32after her
15:33how did
15:34that childhood
15:36and growing
15:36up shape
15:37you?
15:37I guess
15:38it toughened
15:39me from
15:40a very
15:40young age
15:41I felt
15:42that I
15:43needed to
15:44be successful
15:45in my own
15:46right
15:46I thought it
15:47was important
15:47not to be
15:48relying on
15:49others for
15:49your success
15:50or your
15:51money
15:51and I
15:52set a goal
15:53and I
15:53went for
15:55it
15:55you're now
15:56financially
15:57comfortable
15:58how many
15:59properties
15:59do you
16:00own?
16:00I own
16:01five
16:03properties
16:04and have
16:04an interest
16:07in two
16:07which I'm
16:08purchasing
16:08next year
16:09your three
16:10children are
16:11aged between
16:1120 and
16:1226
16:12have you
16:13and your
16:13husband
16:14helped
16:14them
16:15buy
16:15properties?
16:16Yes
16:17I put a
16:17proposal to
16:18my three
16:19kids
16:19that I
16:21would match
16:21whatever
16:23they save
16:24for a
16:25deposit
16:25on a
16:27place
16:27I'd
16:28prefer them
16:29to be
16:29in the
16:30property
16:31market
16:31rather than
16:32renting
16:32so I
16:34gifted them
16:3550,000
16:36each
16:36Do you
16:37think there's
16:38sort of
16:38envy around
16:39that and
16:39jealousy that
16:40comes out?
16:41People who
16:42applaud me
16:44for this
16:46decision
16:46and think
16:47it's terrific
16:48are generally
16:50people who
16:51are happy
16:51within themselves
16:52and where
16:53they are
16:53in life
16:54the ones
16:55that are
16:55envious
16:56or jealous
16:57I think
16:58those people
16:59aren't in a
17:00good space
17:01in their
17:01life
17:02and I
17:02think
17:02are envious
17:03that they
17:05haven't ended
17:06up doing
17:06similar things
17:08with their
17:08money and
17:09they've ended
17:09up broke
17:10or whatever
17:11it is
17:12but we all
17:12make choices
17:13I've not
17:14been jealous
17:14that I
17:16came from
17:16a bit of
17:17a battling
17:18background
17:18I just
17:20admired people
17:21who were
17:21successful and
17:22thought I
17:23want to do
17:23that too
17:25Grace
17:26you're
17:26Michelle's
17:26daughter
17:27you and
17:27your brother
17:28have put
17:28down a
17:28deposit
17:29on a
17:29$1.8
17:30million
17:30apartment
17:31have you
17:32noticed
17:32any envy
17:33from friends
17:34yeah I
17:35have
17:35I tend
17:36to not
17:36tell people
17:37about our
17:39purchase
17:40because
17:40people are
17:41quite quick
17:42to assume
17:43and judge
17:44you
17:45that our
17:46parents just
17:47gave us
17:47a handout
17:48they don't
17:49know how
17:50hard we
17:50actually worked
17:51for the
17:51other 50%
17:53of the
17:54deposit
17:54they don't
17:55know the
17:56experiences
17:56that my
17:57mum and
17:58parents
17:59kind of went
18:00through to
18:00shape our
18:01I guess
18:03goals
18:04on that
18:05so I do
18:05sense that
18:06people around
18:07me are quite
18:08jealous and
18:09envy of our
18:10purchase
18:10because we
18:11are also quite
18:12young
18:13I'm 26
18:14my brother's
18:1423
18:15which is very
18:16young to get
18:17into the
18:17property market
18:18what were the
18:19sacrifices you
18:20made to get
18:21there
18:21well leaving
18:22school we
18:23didn't go on
18:24gap years we
18:25went straight
18:26to uni I
18:27was working
18:28three jobs
18:28at one time
18:30just always
18:32saving
18:32said no to
18:34a couple
18:34social events
18:35with some
18:36friends no to
18:38some nice
18:38shoes maybe
18:39but yeah I
18:41just always had
18:41that goal in
18:42front of me
18:43to save
18:44yeah
18:46Renata you
18:47had your own
18:47business in
18:48Brazil before
18:49you moved to
18:49Australia 25
18:50years ago
18:51you attended
18:52university here
18:53how was your
18:54knowledge and
18:55experience received
18:56so I did sell
18:58my business in
18:59Brazil moved
19:00to Australia
19:00when I was
19:0129 with my
19:02two young boys
19:03and my husband
19:04as an international
19:05student I was
19:07really surprised
19:08by this
19:09behavioural quirk
19:11in Australia
19:12where you
19:13shouldn't speak
19:15up or be
19:16loud or
19:16show off
19:18and I come
19:19from a very
19:20boisterous culture
19:21I'm from
19:22Brazil originally
19:23and then I had
19:24people are laughing
19:26already
19:26so yes
19:28you watch a
19:29Brazilian soccer
19:29match
19:30you see how
19:31loud we can be
19:33we are flamboyant
19:35and I was also
19:36partly raised in the
19:37US
19:38you know
19:38in the Silicon
19:39Valley of all
19:40places
19:40where there is a
19:41culture of
19:42innovation and
19:43being loud and
19:44being confident
19:46so those were
19:48the educational
19:49systems that I
19:50had experienced
19:50and then in
19:51Australia I felt
19:52like less is
19:54more and I
19:55should just meet
19:56expectations and
19:57never exceed
19:58them
19:58how do you think
20:00you were viewed
20:00in the workplace
20:01I had to start
20:03working pretty
20:04quickly and that's
20:05when it became
20:06really evident
20:06that I was
20:08too much
20:09so I felt
20:11like I was
20:12too much for
20:14the workplace
20:14maybe in the
20:16way that I was
20:16showing up
20:17and the way that
20:18I dressed
20:18you know
20:19very colorful
20:20when I moved
20:21to Melbourne
20:22of all places
20:22I did not own
20:23a single piece
20:24of black clothes
20:26my mother still
20:28thinks that black
20:29is for funerals
20:29so you know
20:30so all those
20:32differences
20:33were things
20:34I was not
20:35prepared for
20:35even though I
20:36felt worldly
20:37and experienced
20:38but I felt
20:39that those
20:39were very
20:40Australian
20:41behaviors that
20:42I had to
20:42adjust to
20:43I mean you'd
20:43been the boss
20:44of your own
20:45business
20:45you'd marketed
20:46your own
20:47business
20:47did you feel
20:48like you could
20:48let those qualities
20:50and skills shine
20:51in the workplace
20:52or you had to
20:52downplay them
20:53I had to
20:54downplay them
20:54I had to
20:55downplay them
20:56because I came
20:57to Australia
20:57and I studied
20:59as an undergraduate
21:00so I started
21:01from the bottom
21:01up
21:02even though I
21:03assumed I would
21:05be able to use
21:05those skills
21:06pretty quickly
21:07I wasn't
21:08supposed to
21:09and it was
21:10only a few
21:11years later
21:11I think it
21:12was 2005
21:13when a lovely
21:14boss who is
21:15British
21:16pulled me aside
21:18after a few
21:18career limiting
21:19moves I had made
21:20and explained to me
21:22the concept of
21:23tall poppy syndrome
21:24so I don't know
21:25if people are
21:26aware but
21:26tall poppy syndrome
21:27is an Australian
21:30terminology
21:30but I wasn't
21:32aware and I
21:33wasn't aware
21:33that there was a
21:34definition for
21:35something I was
21:36feeling and
21:36experiencing
21:37and it's not
21:39to say that
21:39only migrants
21:41feel it
21:41no
21:41but because I
21:43come from a
21:43culture where
21:44that doesn't
21:45really exist
21:46I could see
21:47it more
21:48whereas people
21:49that are born
21:50and bred in
21:50Australia
21:51just tend to
21:52normalize that
21:53type of behaviour
21:54and attitude
21:54you left the
21:56corporate world
21:57you're now a
21:57career coach
21:58what effect
21:59does tall poppy
22:01syndrome have
22:01on people
22:02oh it has a
22:03huge effect
22:04I work with
22:06professionals that
22:07are looking for
22:08work
22:08people that are
22:09between jobs
22:10and have to go
22:10through the
22:11recruitment process
22:12if you are
22:14never happy
22:15to put yourself
22:16first and to
22:18stand out
22:19how are you
22:19going to win
22:20that competition
22:22where you need
22:23to be the
22:23final candidate
22:24to get the
22:25job
22:25so
22:27storytelling
22:27during interviews
22:28where you have
22:29to put yourself
22:30first and talk
22:31in the first
22:31person and talk
22:32about your
22:32achievements
22:34if you are
22:35living in a
22:35culture where
22:36being a tall
22:36poppy is seen
22:37as a negative
22:38you hate that
22:39process
22:39you don't want
22:40to go through
22:40that
22:41it's much more
22:42difficult for my
22:43Australian clients
22:44to go through
22:45it than some
22:46other clients
22:46that I have
22:47in different
22:47countries
22:49where are you
22:49both at now
22:50in terms of
22:51partners outside
22:52your marriage
22:52I'm dating
22:53someone for
22:54about over a
22:55year so a
22:56lover of mine
22:56and she's become
22:57a close friend
22:58of mine and
22:59I've been seeing
23:00someone and we've
23:00been seeing each
23:01other for about
23:01five years now
23:05it's just the idea
23:06of being perceived
23:07as a woman
23:07it just felt wrong
23:08I was hoping
23:09maybe it was
23:10just a phase
23:11I kind of wonder
23:11if we've opened
23:12a Pandora's box
23:13that's going to be
23:14very difficult
23:15to close
23:15if there was
23:16a magic pill
23:17that would have
23:17made me happy
23:18to be a woman
23:19but that doesn't
23:21exist
23:21in the last
23:22five years
23:22the numbers
23:23have just
23:23grown exponentially
23:28Liam you and
23:29your wife Abby
23:30have been together
23:31for 13 years
23:32why did you
23:33decide to become
23:34non-monogamous
23:36well when I first
23:37met Abby I was
23:38immediately drawn
23:38to this kind of
23:39sense of adventure
23:40and this curiosity
23:41and creativity
23:42that she had
23:43and when we
23:44started dating
23:45we developed
23:46this really
23:46strong
23:47kind of
23:47foundational
23:48sense of
23:48communication
23:49and as part
23:50of that
23:50communication
23:51we started
23:52to chat
23:52you know
23:52what would
23:53it look like
23:54if we had
23:54a relationship
23:55that looked
23:55a little bit
23:56different
23:56to the kind
23:57of classic
23:58script that
23:58we're kind
23:59of fed
24:00this monogamous
24:01script of like
24:01you are only
24:02with the one
24:03person
24:04did you talk
24:05about how
24:05to approach
24:06jealousy
24:07if it came
24:08up
24:08we did
24:09but I think
24:11for Liam and
24:11I we were
24:12very drawn
24:13towards the
24:14excitement
24:15and the
24:15connection
24:16aspect
24:16of non-monogamy
24:17when jealousy
24:18presented
24:19I feel like
24:20it was more
24:21a something
24:22that we
24:23should feel
24:24we knew
24:25that we might
24:25feel it at
24:26times
24:26but I mean
24:27the narrative
24:27around you
24:28know jealousy
24:29and how jealousy
24:30would rip
24:31a non-monogamous
24:32relationship apart
24:33was quite prominent
24:34especially when
24:35there's not many
24:35there just aren't
24:36many you know
24:37real lived
24:38examples of
24:38non-monogamy
24:39so of course
24:41we had concerns
24:43because we are
24:44deeply connected
24:45and in love
24:46and you know
24:47we are committed
24:48to each other
24:49so we didn't
24:49want to risk
24:50our strong
24:51foundation of
24:52a relationship
24:52that we had
24:53but we still
24:54felt really
24:55positive about
24:56non-monogamy
24:57being a really
24:58exciting thing
24:58for us to
24:59explore
24:59you decided
25:01to open up
25:01your relationship
25:02Abby
25:03how did you
25:03do that
25:04two years
25:05into our
25:05relationship
25:06we were living
25:07overseas in
25:08New York City
25:08we had been
25:10discussing
25:10non-monogamy
25:11for about
25:12a year
25:12and we were
25:13actually out
25:14for dinner
25:14one night
25:15with a
25:15colleague
25:16of mine
25:17and we
25:18were sharing
25:18with her
25:18a little bit
25:19about how
25:19we were
25:20thinking about
25:20exploring
25:21non-monogamy
25:21and unbeknownst
25:23to me
25:24she was
25:25in the
25:26non-monogamous
25:26space
25:27and was
25:28very encouraging
25:29with it
25:30and so
25:30we actually
25:31had
25:32we had a
25:33bit of an
25:33impromptu
25:34night together
25:36but I think
25:36that it was
25:37such a positive
25:38experience
25:38because Liam
25:39and I
25:40had spoken
25:41about it
25:41so much
25:42and I felt
25:42really comfortable
25:43with her
25:43as well
25:44so all
25:46of these
25:46fears around
25:47would this
25:47be something
25:48that might
25:48tear us
25:49apart
25:49is this
25:50going to
25:50be the
25:50beginning
25:50of the
25:51end
25:51it really
25:52wasn't
25:52like that
25:52it was
25:53three
25:53consensual
25:54adults
25:54having a
25:55really
25:55wonderful
25:55time
25:56together
25:57Liam
25:57how would
25:58you describe
25:58your
25:59relationship
25:59today
26:00yeah
26:01so we
26:01have a
26:02very
26:02committed
26:02loving
26:03relationship
26:04where parents
26:04to a
26:05seven-year-old
26:05and we
26:06also have
26:07this
26:07kind of
26:08non-monogamous
26:08approach
26:09to relating
26:09as well
26:09so we
26:10have
26:10partners
26:11that can
26:12kind of
26:12range
26:13from
26:14platonic
26:15partners
26:15that sometimes
26:16it becomes
26:16there's a
26:17physical
26:17intimate
26:17component
26:18to that
26:18to kind
26:19of more
26:20partners
26:20that are
26:21more in
26:21the
26:21polyamorous
26:22space
26:22where we
26:23can develop
26:23kind of
26:24deeper
26:24emotions
26:25for those
26:26partners
26:26but at
26:27the core
26:27of it
26:27it's
26:27a deep
26:28care
26:28for each
26:29other
26:29and
26:30all of
26:30the
26:31non-monogamous
26:31experiences
26:32that we
26:32have
26:33kind of
26:33happen
26:34on top
26:34of that
26:34where are
26:35you both
26:36at now
26:36in terms
26:36of partners
26:37outside your
26:38marriage
26:39yeah so I'm
26:40dating someone
26:41for about
26:42over a year
26:42so a lover
26:43of mine
26:44in Canberra
26:44which is
26:45where we're
26:46from
26:46and she's
26:47become a
26:47close friend
26:47of mine
26:49and I've
26:49been seeing
26:50someone who
26:50actually lives
26:51interstate
26:52and we've
26:52been seeing
26:53each other
26:53for about
26:53five years
26:54now
26:55Abby do you
26:56feel jealous
26:56when Liam
26:57is with his
26:57lover
26:58I think
26:59it is
26:59more like
26:59an envy
27:00it's not
27:01so much
27:02around
27:02the
27:03you know
27:03the intimate
27:04nature
27:04of their
27:05relationship
27:05it's more
27:06around
27:07something
27:08that I'm
27:08noticing
27:09might be
27:09lacking
27:09with Liam
27:11and I
27:11like if
27:12they're going
27:12bouldering
27:13together
27:13or there's
27:14some sort
27:14of activity
27:15I'll stop
27:16and think
27:16gosh like
27:17we haven't
27:17done anything
27:18like that
27:18for a little
27:19while
27:19you know
27:20I'd really
27:20like to
27:21do that
27:21you mentioned
27:22the term
27:23compersion
27:24to our
27:24producer
27:25before this
27:25show
27:26what is
27:27that
27:27so
27:29compersion
27:29is
27:31often
27:31thought of
27:31as
27:32actually
27:32the
27:33opposite
27:33of
27:34jealousy
27:34where
27:35somebody
27:35might
27:35normally
27:35feel
27:36jealous
27:36instead
27:37there's
27:37a feeling
27:38of joy
27:38or excitement
27:39like a
27:40sympathetic
27:41joy
27:41for your
27:42partner
27:43even if
27:43you're
27:44not
27:44you know
27:45the exact
27:45cause
27:46of that
27:47joy
27:47you know
27:48and I
27:48think
27:48compersion
27:49is a
27:49really
27:50important
27:50aspect
27:51for
27:52non-monogamous
27:52relationships
27:53because if
27:54there isn't
27:54compersion
27:56perhaps
27:56then you're
27:57just left
27:57to navigate
27:58the jealousy
27:59and there
28:00might not
28:01be much
28:01of a point
28:02to sort
28:03of explore
28:03non-monogamy
28:04if it's
28:05not without
28:05the joy
28:06because you
28:07know for
28:07Liam and I
28:08this started
28:08because for
28:09me where
28:10somebody might
28:11feel jealous
28:11I actually
28:12love that
28:12he spends
28:13time with
28:13his partner
28:14it's something
28:14that feels
28:15really warm
28:16for me
28:16so that
28:17is
28:18compersion
28:18Liam what
28:19about you
28:20do you
28:20experience
28:21compersion
28:22or do you
28:22ever get
28:23jealous of
28:24Abby's
28:24other
28:25partners
28:25I
28:25definitely
28:26experience
28:26a lot
28:27of
28:27compersion
28:27and as
28:28Abby said
28:28I think
28:29it underpins
28:29our non-monogamous
28:30experience
28:31so potentially
28:32Abby might be
28:33going out
28:33on a date
28:34with a
28:34partner
28:34and I'm
28:35not jealous
28:35of her
28:36but rather
28:37I'm envious
28:37that maybe
28:38I would like
28:38to go out
28:39on a date
28:39as well
28:40so initially
28:40I think
28:41there was
28:41a lot
28:42of confusion
28:42I thought
28:43I was feeling
28:44jealousy
28:44but actually
28:45it was
28:45more of an
28:46envy
28:47Kyla
28:48you've been
28:48in non-monogamous
28:49relationships
28:50with other
28:51couples
28:51how do you
28:52feel about
28:52open
28:53relationships
28:54I'm so
28:55interested
28:56listening to
28:57your
28:57conversation
28:58because I'm
28:58grappling
28:59with non-monogamy
29:00I have been
29:02in non-monogamous
29:03relationships
29:03but I don't
29:04know whether
29:04relationship
29:05is the right
29:05word
29:06I have
29:07since
29:08separating
29:09from the
29:09father of
29:10my child
29:10been seeing
29:11multiple
29:12men and
29:13women
29:13at the
29:14same
29:14time
29:15but in
29:17an open
29:17forum
29:17where I've
29:18said that
29:18this is
29:18not
29:19an exclusive
29:20relationship
29:21but I
29:22have
29:22recently
29:22been
29:23presented
29:23with the
29:24possibility
29:25of going
29:25into
29:26a
29:26relationship
29:27but from
29:28the outset
29:29being said
29:30that this
29:30is a
29:30non-monogamous
29:31relationship
29:31what do
29:32you grapple
29:33with
29:34I think
29:35that I
29:36would want
29:36to go
29:36into a
29:37relationship
29:37if it
29:38is a
29:38relationship
29:39with that
29:40person
29:41finding the
29:42joy
29:42the happiness
29:43and the
29:43spark
29:43with that
29:44person
29:44and then
29:45maybe
29:46once there's
29:47trust
29:47and there's
29:47safety
29:48then you
29:49can
29:49communicate
29:50and say
29:50well okay
29:51here are
29:51the boundaries
29:52and maybe
29:52we can
29:53be with
29:53other
29:53people
29:54what I'm
29:55grappling
29:56with at
29:56the moment
29:56is going
29:57into
29:58a relationship
29:59where that's
29:59been put
29:59on the
30:00table
30:00from the
30:00beginning
30:01where you
30:02know that
30:03you're not
30:04going to be
30:04the only
30:05one from
30:05the get
30:06go
30:06it's like
30:07well am
30:07I not
30:08enough
30:08right now
30:09am I
30:09not enough
30:10today
30:11am I
30:12never going
30:12to be
30:12enough
30:13whereas
30:14with you
30:14guys maybe
30:15you've
30:15gone okay
30:15I am
30:16they are
30:16enough
30:17but let's
30:18look at
30:18what else
30:19there is
30:19and I
30:19probably
30:20would be
30:20more inclined
30:21to go
30:21that way
30:22and I
30:22probably
30:23would be
30:23the one
30:23to open
30:24that conversation
30:24to be
30:24totally
30:25honest
30:25and I'm
30:26really
30:26probably
30:26the most
30:27sexually
30:28open-minded
30:29person
30:29but I'm
30:29really grappling
30:30with it
30:30at the moment
30:31I'm thinking
30:32about it
30:32and I love
30:33this idea
30:33of compersion
30:34I'm listening
30:37you're bisexual
30:38you have had
30:39a 17 year
30:40relationship
30:41with a woman
30:42has there been
30:43any jealousy
30:43there
30:44not with
30:45her
30:45I think
30:46relationships
30:47for me
30:48are energy
30:49and I think
30:50the closest
30:51way of describing
30:52me
30:52I hate being
30:52put in a box
30:53I hate people
30:53saying oh you're
30:54bisexual
30:54and I say well
30:55actually I'm
30:55connected to
30:56someone's energy
30:56so then they're
30:57like oh so
30:57you're pansexual
30:58and I think
30:59we really get
30:59into more danger
31:00when we're
31:01trying to put
31:01our relationship
31:02into a box
31:03so for me
31:04I might have
31:05a completely
31:06monogamous
31:07relationship
31:07with a man
31:08and not even
31:09think about
31:10having sex
31:10with another
31:10woman
31:11or anyone
31:11else
31:12whereas her
31:13and I
31:13have been
31:14in a relationship
31:14on and off
31:15for 17 years
31:16and there's
31:17now three
31:17of us
31:18you know
31:18she has a
31:20partner now
31:20so the three
31:21of us are
31:22together
31:22you can call
31:23it throuple
31:24we get called
31:24lots of things
31:25but again
31:26there is no
31:27jealousy
31:27whatsoever
31:28like zero
31:29zilch
31:30he calls us
31:31his wives
31:31we call him
31:32our hubby
31:33they live
31:34together
31:35I'm probably
31:36the outsider
31:36but it's
31:37love and it's
31:38special
31:38and it's
31:39energy
31:41Abby and
31:42Liam
31:42do you ever
31:43question
31:43whether you're
31:44not enough
31:45for each
31:46other
31:48no
31:49here's a
31:50short answer
31:50I was wondering
31:51who was going
31:51to answer
31:52the question
31:52yeah
31:53no
31:53I think
31:54you know
31:55that's a really
31:56good point
31:56of you know
31:57having it be
31:58from this
31:58point of
31:59stability
31:59we didn't
32:00rush into
32:01this
32:01and we
32:01also
32:02spent a lot
32:03of time
32:03connecting
32:04with each
32:04other
32:04and building
32:05those really
32:06strong
32:07foundations
32:07where we
32:08had that
32:09time
32:09to focus
32:09on one
32:10another
32:10for years
32:11and I mean
32:11everybody's
32:12different
32:12but that
32:13is what
32:13worked
32:13really well
32:14for us
32:14and then
32:15having it
32:16be
32:17conversion
32:17led
32:17I think
32:18has made
32:19it be a
32:19very abundant
32:20and positive
32:21experience
32:21I don't feel
32:22like there's
32:23anything wrong
32:24with me
32:24or lacking
32:25in me
32:25when Liam
32:26is enjoying
32:27being with
32:28his other
32:29partner
32:29she's wonderful
32:30we're separate
32:31people
32:31I don't need
32:32to compare
32:32myself to her
32:33I'm my own
32:34person
32:34and she's
32:35her own
32:35person
32:35so I think
32:37having that
32:37strong foundation
32:38is really
32:39important
32:40for us
32:40yeah I
32:41definitely
32:41agree
32:42I think
32:42it's really
32:43important for us
32:44to see it as
32:45coming from a
32:45place of abundance
32:46so if we felt
32:47that our
32:47relationship for
32:48whatever reason
32:49was becoming
32:50rocky
32:50we would choose
32:51to probably
32:52retreat from
32:52being non-monogamous
32:53and actually work
32:55on our relationship
32:56because it's so
32:56important for us
32:57that we are
32:58caring for each
32:59other and it
33:00does come from
33:00abundance
33:02Justin you've
33:03said your
33:03insecurity led
33:04to jealousy
33:05in past
33:06relationships
33:06how did that
33:07play out
33:08for you
33:08I guess it
33:09manifested in
33:10a constant
33:11need for
33:12reassurance
33:13a constant
33:14need to be
33:14around my
33:15partners
33:16it was almost
33:17in a way
33:18I was afraid
33:19that the
33:20moment was
33:20fleeting
33:21that they
33:22might someday
33:22realise that
33:23life would be
33:24better without
33:25me
33:25and so I
33:26held on so
33:27tightly
33:27to the moment
33:29to that person
33:29in fear that
33:31it would one
33:31day end
33:32and so that
33:33manifested in
33:34always wanting
33:35to know where
33:36they were
33:36who they were
33:37with
33:37where they were
33:38going
33:38and of course
33:39that is quite
33:40a toxic
33:41relationship
33:42and I didn't
33:43like who I
33:44was in that
33:45moment either
33:47we've spoken to
33:48one of your
33:48former girlfriends
33:49she said she's
33:51very proud of you
33:51for acknowledging
33:52your jealousy
33:53how have you
33:54overcome it
33:55a short-term
33:57fix for jealousy
33:58is constant
33:59reassurance
34:00but the long-term
34:01fix and what
34:02took me the
34:03longest time
34:03is just to
34:05love myself
34:06and to learn
34:07that you can
34:08be okay
34:09you can be
34:10loved
34:10you can trust
34:11people
34:11and it took
34:12a lot of time
34:13obviously like
34:14therapy and
34:14things like that
34:15and a lot of
34:16self-meditation
34:17and thinking
34:18through all of
34:19these things
34:19and I think
34:20the way that
34:20that's manifested
34:21is that the
34:22things that people
34:23say about me
34:23and the way
34:24that they see
34:24me is starting
34:25to align with
34:26the way that I
34:27see myself
34:27so I can look
34:28in the mirror
34:28and see myself
34:30the way that
34:31other people
34:31say they see
34:32me
34:32Grace your
34:34former partner
34:35like you
34:35is in the
34:36entertainment
34:36industry
34:37was there any
34:38jealousy or envy
34:39in that
34:40relationship
34:40yes
34:41and I think
34:42that with
34:44other partners
34:44I've had also
34:45that have been
34:46creative or
34:47artistic
34:47it's always been
34:49the qualities
34:49that drew them
34:50to me
34:51and made our
34:52connection feel
34:53so incredible
34:54in the beginning
34:55other things
34:55that I was
34:56eventually resented
34:58for by my
34:58partners
34:59because it
35:00felt like
35:00we were
35:01in competition
35:02my partner
35:03would sabotage
35:05audition opportunities
35:06and would feel
35:07as though
35:08when you know
35:08something exciting
35:09was happening
35:10for me
35:10in my career
35:10that somehow
35:12that was
35:13something that
35:14he needed
35:14to be
35:15insecure of
35:16within his
35:17own right
35:18and yeah
35:19it was
35:19ultimately
35:20what led
35:21to the end
35:21of that
35:21relationship
35:23angel
35:24can jealousy
35:25and envy
35:26in relationships
35:26cause problems
35:28healthy
35:29interesting
35:30emotionally
35:32rich
35:32relationship
35:33can hold
35:34a spectrum
35:35of emotions
35:35including
35:36jealousy
35:37and envy
35:37however
35:38when jealousy
35:39and envy
35:39are the
35:40predominant
35:40themes
35:41in a
35:41relationship
35:42that's
35:42when
35:42it can
35:43lead
35:44to
35:45impulsive
35:46behaviours
35:47irrational
35:47behaviours
35:48aggression
35:49violence
35:50dishonesty
35:51harm to self
35:52and others
35:52why is it
35:54that jealousy
35:55can sort of
35:56tip some of us
35:57over the edge
35:58into more
35:58harmful
35:59actions
36:00jealousy
36:01can often
36:02tip us
36:03over the edge
36:04because
36:04it is
36:06a very
36:07complex feeling
36:08and powerful
36:08feeling
36:09mixed with
36:09anger
36:10anxiety
36:11fear
36:11so
36:12jealousy
36:13as an
36:14emotion
36:14can really
36:15trigger that
36:16fight or flight
36:17response
36:17so
36:18that can lead
36:19to responses
36:20and behaviours
36:21that can seem
36:22very impulsive
36:23or irrational
36:23or without
36:24forethought
36:25it could look
36:26like violence
36:27it could look
36:28like self-harm
36:29it could look
36:30like addictive
36:31behaviours
36:32so a range
36:34of very
36:35very harmful
36:36behaviours
36:36to
36:37the self
36:39and
36:39to the other
36:40person
36:41Julie
36:42you were a
36:43police officer
36:44working in
36:44domestic violence
36:45when your
36:46sister Anne
36:47was murdered
36:48a man who
36:48smothered his
36:49wife to death
36:50with a pillow
36:50at their
36:51Milpera home
36:52will spend
36:53at least 12
36:53years behind
36:54bars
36:55Anne Rogers
36:56was killed
36:57after reconnecting
36:58with her
36:59high school
36:59sweetheart
37:00the crowd
37:00arguing he
37:01killed
37:02because he
37:02was angry
37:03and jealous
37:03after finding
37:04messages sent
37:05between his
37:06wife and the
37:07childhood sweetheart
37:08she had
37:08reconnected with
37:09on Facebook
37:10Julie
37:11what was your
37:12sister Anne
37:13like
37:13she was a
37:14beautiful person
37:15she was a
37:16great mother
37:16she was a
37:17great grandmother
37:18she had lots
37:20and lots of
37:20friends
37:21and at her
37:22funeral
37:23I walked into
37:24this church
37:24and I have
37:26never seen so
37:26many people
37:27at her funeral
37:27she was well
37:28loved
37:30Anne and her
37:31husband had
37:31been married
37:32for 41 years
37:33do you believe
37:35jealousy was
37:35behind her
37:36murder
37:36absolutely
37:37he was
37:38envious
37:40that she
37:41had reconnected
37:42with someone
37:42on Facebook
37:43and she
37:44was having
37:45this online
37:47relationship
37:47friendship
37:48with this
37:49person
37:50and he
37:51found out
37:52and he
37:53said to her
37:54I want you
37:55to promise
37:55on your
37:56mother's grave
37:57that you'll
37:57never contact
37:58him ever again
37:59because he
38:00did control
38:00her
38:01and he
38:02found out
38:02that she
38:03did
38:03and he
38:03couldn't
38:04control
38:04her anymore
38:06so he
38:06killed her
38:07you worked
38:08in DV
38:08what was
38:09it like
38:10to know
38:10that your
38:11sister
38:11had been
38:12involved
38:12in a DV
38:13relationship
38:13I could
38:14never have
38:15predicted
38:16that this
38:17would happen
38:18to my
38:18sister
38:19because if
38:19I could
38:20have predicted
38:21it
38:21I would have
38:22saved her
38:23and I
38:23couldn't even
38:24save my
38:24own sister
38:27Kim
38:27you were
38:28admitted
38:28to a
38:29psychiatric
38:29unit
38:30during a
38:30severe
38:31depressive
38:31episode
38:32with bipolar
38:32disorder
38:33how did
38:34you feel
38:35when family
38:36and friends
38:36visited you
38:37for the
38:38first few
38:39weeks
38:39everything
38:39was fine
38:40and all
38:41of a sudden
38:41I started
38:42to around
38:43the third
38:43week I
38:44started to
38:45feel very
38:45jealous
38:46and envious
38:47of everyone
38:48to the point
38:48where I
38:49didn't want
38:49to know
38:50what they
38:51were getting
38:51up to
38:52even as
38:52simple as
38:53going to
38:54work
38:55having dinner
38:56with their
38:56children
38:57those little
38:58things
38:58and sometimes
39:00if my
39:01cousins were
39:01together
39:02they'd be
39:02talking with
39:03each other
39:03and I'd be
39:04sitting there
39:04what were
39:05you jealous
39:06of
39:06their life
39:07and I
39:08had no
39:08life
39:09I was
39:09in hospital
39:10and I
39:11was to
39:12the point
39:12where this
39:13is going
39:13to be
39:14the rest
39:14of your
39:14life
39:15because
39:15that's
39:15how dark
39:16I got
39:16I became
39:18also
39:18suicidal
39:19and then
39:20I started
39:20to think
39:22I'm going
39:22to cut
39:23them out
39:23I'm going
39:24to start
39:24not having
39:25any connection
39:26with them
39:26anymore
39:26because if
39:27I'm going
39:27to live
39:28like this
39:28forever
39:29I don't
39:29want to
39:30be around
39:30them
39:30because it
39:31was just
39:31too painful
39:32for me
39:32because I
39:33was in
39:33such a
39:34horrible
39:34dark
39:35place
39:35Were you
39:36surprised
39:37by those
39:37feelings
39:38of jealousy
39:38and envy?
39:40Oh yes
39:40because I'm
39:41the total
39:41opposite
39:41I'm the
39:42happy-go-lucky
39:43I'm the
39:43loud
39:44usually the
39:44loudest
39:45one in
39:45my family
39:46and group
39:47love
39:47conversations
39:48full of
39:49humour
39:49full of
39:50love
39:50especially
39:51for my
39:51friends
39:51children
39:52and just
39:53being around
39:54them
39:54I stopped
39:55socialising
39:56I stopped
39:56doing all
39:57those wonderful
39:58things that
39:58I'd done
39:59all my
39:59life
39:59and there
40:01was this
40:01hate
40:02this horrible
40:04horrible
40:04feeling
40:05Where do
40:06you think
40:06the jealousy
40:07and envy
40:08came from?
40:09I had no
40:09purpose in
40:10life
40:10I'd resigned
40:12from being
40:12a youth
40:13worker for
40:1330 years
40:14because my
40:14mental health
40:15started to
40:16deteriorate
40:16and then
40:17I just
40:18started to
40:19go dark
40:19I stopped
40:20eating
40:20I stopped
40:21showering
40:22I stopped
40:23socialising
40:24talking to
40:24people
40:25avoiding
40:25everyone
40:26I was
40:27dead inside
40:27so
40:28How did
40:29you begin
40:29to get on
40:30top of
40:30those emotions?
40:32Well the
40:32last
40:32the last
40:33time I
40:34tried to
40:34end my
40:35life by
40:36suicide
40:36I
40:39called
40:40a service
40:41and
40:41the next
40:43day
40:43I
40:44started
40:44therapy
40:45I guess
40:46the
40:46medication's
40:47working
40:47so
40:48that's a
40:49pretty good
40:49thing
40:49but just
40:50so grateful
40:51that I
40:51stayed
40:52I chose
40:52life
40:53and
40:53to
40:54continue
40:54being
40:55with the
40:55people
40:55that I
40:56love
40:56and
40:57yeah
40:57the
40:57jealousy
40:58and all
40:58that's
40:58gone
40:58maybe
40:59just
40:59little
40:59things
40:59like
40:59are you
41:00going
41:00away
41:00next
41:01weekend
41:01you
41:01bitch
41:04I
41:04was
41:04extremely
41:05lucky
41:05to have
41:05my
41:05son
41:06and
41:06I
41:06was
41:06so
41:06grateful
41:06to
41:07have
41:07him
41:07here
41:07but
41:07when
41:08you
41:08want
41:08to
41:08it's
41:09very
41:09hard
41:09to
41:09just
41:10let
41:10that
41:10go
41:11I
41:11often
41:12found
41:12myself
41:12looking
41:12at
41:13friends
41:13who
41:13had
41:13kids
41:14and
41:14all
41:14their
41:15siblings
41:15were
41:15playing
41:15together
41:16I
41:16didn't
41:16know
41:17anyone
41:17that
41:17was
41:17going
41:17through
41:17the
41:17same
41:18sort
41:18of
41:18thing
41:18as
41:18me
41:18so
41:18it
41:22was
41:23Jodie
41:23your
41:24son
41:24Riley
41:24was
41:25four
41:25and
41:25you
41:26were
41:26envious
41:26of
41:26other
41:27mums
41:27why
41:28was
41:28that
41:29we
41:30had
41:30no
41:30issues
41:30whatsoever
41:31having
41:31Riley
41:31within
41:32a few
41:32months
41:33of
41:33trying
41:33we
41:34were
41:34I
41:34fell
41:34pregnant
41:35and
41:35it
41:36was
41:36a
41:36very
41:37you
41:38know
41:38standard
41:38pregnancy
41:39no
41:39issues
41:39so
41:40when
41:40we
41:41two
41:41and
41:41a
41:41half
41:41years
41:41later
41:42wanted
41:43to
41:43try
41:43again
41:43for
41:43our
41:44second
41:44child
41:44again
41:45we
41:45fell
41:45pregnant
41:46very
41:46quickly
41:46and
41:46so
41:46we
41:47thought
41:47you
41:47know
41:47great
41:47same
41:48sort
41:48of
41:48thing
41:48perfect
41:49age
41:49gap
41:49it's
41:50all
41:50going
41:50to
41:50fall
41:51into
41:51plan
41:51and
41:52then
41:52I
41:52had
41:53my
41:53first
41:53miscarriage
41:53and
41:55that
41:56was a
41:56pretty
41:56traumatic
41:56one
41:57but
41:57we
41:57sort
41:58of
41:58just
41:58said
41:58okay
41:58let's
41:59keep
41:59trying
41:59we
41:59definitely
42:00want
42:00to
42:00so
42:00it
42:01happens
42:01to
42:01a
42:01lot
42:02of
42:02people
42:02so
42:03we
42:03kept
42:03trying
42:03and
42:04unfortunately
42:04from
42:05that
42:05first
42:06miscarriage
42:06nothing
42:07happened
42:08for a
42:08really
42:08long
42:08time
42:08we
42:09were
42:09told
42:09there
42:09was
42:09nothing
42:10wrong
42:10with
42:10us
42:10so
42:11we
42:11just
42:11had
42:12to
42:12keep
42:12trying
42:12but
42:13it
42:13just
42:13didn't
42:13happen
42:14I
42:14had
42:14chemical
42:15pregnancies
42:15I
42:16had
42:16a
42:16couple
42:16more
42:16miscarriages
42:17and I
42:17just
42:18couldn't
42:18keep
42:18a
42:19baby
42:20basically
42:20I
42:20just
42:20was
42:20never
42:21going
42:21any
42:21further
42:21so
42:22I
42:22often
42:23found
42:23myself
42:23looking
42:23at
42:23friends
42:24who
42:24had
42:24kids
42:25and
42:25all
42:25their
42:25siblings
42:26were
42:26playing
42:26together
42:26and
42:27it
42:27was
42:27really
42:28hard
42:28to
42:28watch
42:28other
42:29people
42:29not
42:30have
42:39two
42:40things
42:40can
42:40be
42:40true
42:41I
42:41was
42:41extremely
42:42lucky
42:42to
42:42have
42:42my
42:42son
42:43and
42:43I
42:43was
42:43so
42:43grateful
42:43to
42:43have
42:44him
42:44he
42:44was
42:44amazing
42:45but
42:46when
42:46you
42:46want
42:46to
42:47it's
42:47very
42:48hard
42:48to
42:48just
42:48let
42:49that
42:49go
42:49the
42:50idea
42:50that
42:50it
42:50might
42:50not
42:50happen
42:51and
42:52most
42:52people
42:52are
42:53very
42:53supportive
42:53but
42:53I
42:54did
42:54have
42:54one
42:54other
42:55moment
42:56that
42:56really
42:57I
42:57found
42:58very
42:58odd
42:58I
42:59went
43:00to
43:00the
43:00emergency
43:00room
43:01because
43:01I
43:01was
43:01told
43:01to
43:01do
43:02that
43:02if
43:02I
43:02was
43:02getting
43:03any
43:03spotting
43:03during
43:03a
43:04pregnancy
43:04and
43:05I'm
43:05sitting
43:05there
43:05and
43:06the
43:06nurse
43:07said
43:07to
43:07me
43:08you
43:08know
43:09do
43:09you
43:09have
43:09other
43:10children
43:10at
43:10home
43:11and
43:11I
43:11said
43:11I've
43:11got
43:11one
43:12boy
43:13and
43:13she
43:13said
43:13oh
43:14well
43:14you're
43:15lucky
43:15then
43:15and
43:16I
43:16said
43:17yeah
43:17and
43:18she
43:18said
43:18me
43:19and
43:19my
43:19husband
43:19have
43:19been
43:19trying
43:19for
43:19a
43:19couple
43:19of
43:20years
43:20we
43:20can't
43:20have
43:20any
43:20so
43:20you
43:21should
43:21be
43:21grateful
43:22or
43:22you
43:22should
43:22be
43:22lucky
43:23or
43:23something
43:23and
43:24I'm
43:24sitting
43:24there
43:24thinking
43:25okay
43:27thanks
43:27for
43:27that
43:28and
43:28it
43:28was
43:28only
43:29when
43:29I
43:29went
43:29home
43:29that
43:29I
43:29actually
43:30felt
43:30quite
43:30angry
43:31with
43:31that
43:31comment
43:31because
43:32I
43:32was
43:32going
43:33through
43:33such
43:33a
43:33horrible
43:34moment
43:34and
43:35she
43:35chose
43:35that
43:35to
43:35make
43:36me
43:36feel
43:37guilty
43:37because
43:37I
43:38had
43:38something
43:38she
43:38didn't
43:38have
43:39did
43:39your
43:39son
43:40want
43:40a
43:40sibling
43:41yeah
43:42very
43:42much
43:43he
43:43always
43:44wanted
43:44one
43:44but
43:44it
43:44was
43:44more
43:45evident
43:45by
43:46the
43:46time
43:46we
43:46got
43:46kinder
43:47age
43:47into
43:47school
43:47there
43:48was
43:48one
43:48incident
43:49that
43:49really
43:49stayed
43:49with
43:50me
43:50and
43:50it
43:50was
43:50I
43:51was
43:51actually
43:51on
43:52the
43:52way
43:52to
43:52a
43:52park
43:53with
43:53my
43:53son
43:53and
44:08I
44:14and
44:14we
44:15got
44:15there
44:15and
44:15there
44:15were
44:15just
44:15families
44:16and
44:16mothers
44:17groups
44:17everywhere
44:18and
44:18there
44:18was
44:18kids
44:18playing
44:19with
44:19other
44:19kids
44:19and
44:19I
44:20was
44:20swinging
44:20him
44:20on
44:21a
44:21swing
44:21later
44:21and
44:22he
44:22said
44:22to
44:22me
44:22I
44:23I
44:24just
44:24feel
44:24a bit
44:24scared
44:25and
44:25I
44:25said
44:26why
44:26do
44:26you
44:26feel
44:26scared
44:26and
44:26he
44:27said
44:27well
44:27I
44:27don't
44:28know
44:28anyone
44:28here
44:28and
44:29I
44:29don't
44:29have
44:30anyone
44:30to
44:30play
44:30with
44:30and
44:31I
44:31had
44:31to
44:31have
44:32a
44:32conversation
44:44envy
44:44kids
44:45with
44:45siblings
44:45yeah
44:46I
44:46really
44:46did
44:47I
44:47had
44:47I
44:48wouldn't
44:48say
44:48it
44:48was
44:48jealousy
44:48it
44:49was
44:49more
44:49envy
44:49and
44:50probably
44:50the
44:51biggest
44:51thing
44:51I
44:51was
44:51envious
44:52of
44:52is
44:52they
44:53had
44:53someone
44:53else
44:54they
44:54could
44:54blame
44:55so
44:56when
44:56things
44:57go
44:57wrong
44:57you've
44:58got
44:58a
44:58sibling
44:58there's
44:59only so
44:59many
44:59times
45:00that
45:00you
45:00can
45:00blame
45:01your
45:01cat
45:01your
45:01dog
45:02or
45:02your
45:02teddy
45:02bear
45:02before
45:03your
45:03credibility
45:04gets
45:04a little
45:04bit
45:04wobbly
45:05I
45:15instant
45:15pack
45:16and it
45:16was
45:17something
45:17that
45:17I
45:17very
45:18much
45:18wanted
45:19to
45:19have
45:20it
45:21left
45:21me
45:21feeling
45:21like
45:22I
45:23was
45:24a
45:24half
45:24a
45:24page
45:25or
45:25a
45:26paragraph
45:26behind
45:27when I
45:28got
45:28into
45:28the
45:29likes
45:29of
45:29school
45:30because
45:31your
45:32siblings
45:32or
45:33people
45:33who
45:33have
45:33got
45:33siblings
45:34they're
45:35the
45:35first
45:35ones
45:35who
45:35are
45:36going
45:36to
45:36be
45:36your
45:37best
45:37friend
45:37or
45:38your
45:38worst
45:39enemy
45:39they're
45:40going
45:40to be
45:40the
45:40ones
45:40who
45:40are
45:40going
45:40to
45:40laugh
45:41with
45:41you
45:41or
45:41laugh
45:42at
45:42you
45:42so
45:43there's
45:43a
45:43lot
45:43of
45:44social
45:44cues
45:45that
45:46kids
45:46with
45:47siblings
45:47get
45:47growing
45:48up
45:48that
45:49I
45:49didn't
45:50have
45:50did
45:51your
45:51parents
45:52want
45:52more
45:52children
45:53yeah
45:53they
45:54did
45:54in
45:55a
45:55very
45:55similar
45:55situation
45:56my
45:57mum
45:57suffered
45:58for
45:59rather
45:59traumatic
46:00miscarriages
46:01before she
46:02had me
46:02and so
46:03I was
46:03born in
46:04the
46:0470s
46:04so
46:05IVF
46:06wasn't
46:06so much
46:06a
46:07thing
46:07there
46:08I
46:09did
46:09go
46:09to
46:09them
46:09I
46:10remember
46:10I
46:10would
46:10have
46:10been
46:10about
46:11six
46:11and said
46:12why
46:12don't
46:13I
46:13have
46:13brothers
46:14or
46:14sisters
46:14and
46:15mum
46:16and
46:16dad
46:16sat
46:16me
46:17down
46:17and
46:17explained
46:17everything
46:18and they
46:19decided
46:19at that
46:20point
46:20that
46:20they
46:20were
46:21going
46:21to
46:21investigate
46:21the
46:22possibility
46:22of
46:22adopting
46:23so
46:24that
46:24I
46:24could
46:24have
46:24a
46:25sibling
46:25they
46:26were
46:26told
46:27they
46:27would
46:27only
46:27be
46:27eligible
46:28for
46:28children
46:28who
46:29were
46:30either
46:31had
46:32severe
46:32disabilities
46:33mental
46:34or
46:35physical
46:35or
46:36were
46:36terminally
46:36ill
46:37I
46:37thought
46:37that
46:38was
46:38the
46:38reason
46:38for
46:38the
46:39longest
46:39time
46:39until
46:40only
46:40a
46:40couple
46:40of
46:40weeks
46:40ago
46:41I
46:41was
46:42under
46:42the
46:42impression
46:43that
46:43that's
46:43why
46:43mum
46:43and
46:43dad
46:43never
46:44pursued
46:44it
46:44but
46:45it
46:45turns
46:46out
46:46speaking
46:46to
46:46some
46:47friends
46:47that
46:47they
46:47did
46:48actually
46:48pursue
46:48it
46:49and
46:49what
46:49ultimately
46:50knocked
46:51them
46:51back
46:51was
46:52mum's
46:52age
46:53she
46:53was
46:5337
46:55and
46:56the
46:57adoption
46:58agency
46:58said
46:58no
46:59you're
46:59too
46:59old
47:00Do
47:00you
47:01still
47:01envy
47:02others
47:02who
47:03have
47:03siblings
47:03I
47:04do
47:04in
47:05some
47:05instances
47:06as
47:07a
47:07teenager
47:08it
47:09the
47:10number
47:10of
47:10my
47:11friends
47:11who
47:11said
47:11oh
47:11god
47:12I
47:12wish
47:12I
47:12was
47:12an
47:13only
47:13child
47:13and
47:14I
47:15was
47:15going
47:15god
47:15I
47:15wish
47:15I
47:15had
47:16brothers
47:16and
47:16sisters
47:16and
47:17then
47:17I'd
47:17actually
47:18see
47:18them
47:18interacting
47:19with
47:19their
47:19brothers
47:19and
47:19sisters
47:20going
47:21no
47:21I'm
47:21quite
47:21happy
47:22being
47:22an
47:22only
47:22child
47:24but
47:24most
47:25recently
47:25in
47:26the
47:26last
47:2610
47:27years
47:27it
47:28really
47:28came
47:28to
47:28the
47:28forefront
47:29my
47:30dad
47:30in
47:302015
47:32passed
47:32away
47:32rather
47:33suddenly
47:34then
47:35in
47:352022
47:35I
47:36lost
47:36mum
47:36she
47:37passed
47:37away
47:38I
47:38did
47:39feel
47:39very
47:40alone
47:40and
47:41I
47:41felt
47:41envious
47:42probably
47:43one
47:44of
47:44the
47:44biggest
47:45ones
47:45was
47:46if
47:46you
47:47know
47:47when you
47:48go to
47:48a funeral
47:49service
47:49the
47:49family
47:50is
47:50in
47:50the
47:50front
47:50row
47:51usually
47:51it's
47:52the
47:52immediate
47:52family
47:53of
47:53the
47:53deceased
47:53now
47:54I
47:55was
47:56it
47:56I
47:56was
47:57the
47:57last
47:57now
47:58I
47:59must
47:59state
47:59that
47:59my
47:59friends
48:00and
48:00my
48:00extended
48:01family
48:01were
48:02there
48:02for
48:02me
48:03absolutely
48:04but
48:05I
48:05felt
48:05very
48:06isolated
48:06and
48:06quite
48:08envious
48:08of
48:09knowing
48:10that
48:10my
48:11cousins
48:11and my
48:12friends
48:12and that
48:13when they
48:13had to
48:14go through
48:14that
48:14process
48:15would
48:16have
48:17somebody
48:17else
48:17there
48:19Kyla
48:20you have
48:20one
48:20sibling
48:21a sister
48:21who's
48:2214
48:22months
48:22older
48:23than
48:23you
48:23how's
48:24that
48:24relationship
48:25been
48:25over
48:25the
48:25years
48:26good
48:27growing
48:27up
48:27it's
48:28good
48:28to
48:28have
48:28a
48:29sibling
48:29you
48:30know
48:30growing
48:30up
48:31someone
48:31to
48:31play
48:31with
48:31as
48:32you
48:32say
48:32but
48:3314
48:33months
48:34is
48:34awfully
48:34close
48:35in
48:35age
48:35and
48:35when
48:35you're
48:36same
48:36gender
48:37same
48:37sex
48:39it's
48:40good
48:40and
48:40bad
48:40you
48:41share
48:41a lot
48:42but
48:43obviously
48:43you get
48:43into
48:43those
48:44teenage
48:44years
48:45and
48:46things
48:47become
48:48somewhat
48:49competitive
48:49you know
48:50how you
48:51are with
48:51the boys
48:52or how
48:52you are
48:53at sport
48:53or how
48:54you are
48:54at school
48:55I was
48:56very
48:56academic
48:57whereas
48:57my sister
48:58wasn't
48:58I was
48:59dating
48:59boys
48:59in her
48:59year
49:00level
49:00I was
49:02spending
49:02time
49:03with
49:03people
49:03that
49:04she
49:04wanted
49:04to
49:04spend
49:04time
49:04with
49:05and
49:05that
49:06friendship
49:06that
49:07we had
49:07as
49:07children
49:08soon
49:09turned
49:09to
49:09rivalry
49:10which
49:10wasn't
49:11pretty
49:11and that
49:12sort of
49:12went on
49:13throughout
49:13our lives
49:14and I think
49:14you know
49:14the jealousy
49:15in any
49:15form
49:16can be
49:17really
49:17dangerous
49:17and jealousy
49:18I think
49:18in a
49:19relationship
49:19in a loving
49:20relationship
49:21with your
49:21partner
49:21is the
49:22worst
49:23but
49:24sibling
49:24rivalry
49:25has to be
49:26second
49:26because you
49:27just
49:27you don't get
49:28a choice
49:28of walking
49:29away
49:29and I
49:30actually
49:30fell out
49:31with my
49:31sister
49:31five years
49:32ago
49:32so when I
49:32separated
49:33from the
49:33father of
49:33my child
49:34I feel
49:35like my
49:35sister was
49:36happy in
49:37my sadness
49:38which is
49:39very hurtful
49:39and our
49:40annual family
49:42Christmas
49:42get together
49:43which is
49:43normally a
49:43place of
49:44joy
49:44ended up
49:45in an
49:45enormous
49:46fight
49:46which just
49:47sort of
49:47rained down
49:48you know
49:4820 years
49:49of contempt
49:50and hate
49:51and that was
49:51the last time
49:52I've seen
49:52my sister
49:53I haven't
49:53seen my
49:53sister
49:53since
49:55Jodie
49:55you always
49:56wanted two
49:57children
49:57you had
49:58your last
49:59round of
49:59IVF
50:00more than
50:00two years
50:00ago
50:01how did
50:01that go
50:02I'm happy
50:03to say
50:03it ended
50:04very well
50:05yes we
50:06had our
50:07daughter
50:07in the
50:08start of
50:082024
50:10and yeah
50:11she's very
50:12gorgeous
50:12so Riley's
50:14now nine
50:14years old
50:15yes Riley's
50:16nine
50:17Lola's now
50:17two so
50:18yeah everything's
50:19changed the
50:20weight has
50:20gone and it's
50:21just such
50:22so much more
50:23light and
50:24happiness
50:24yeah
50:24thank you so
50:25much and
50:26thank you to
50:26you all for
50:27being here
50:27that's all we
50:27have time for
50:28thank you for
50:29your company
50:29you can catch
50:30up on this
50:30episode or
50:31any others
50:32on SBS
50:32on demand
50:33I'll see you
50:33next time
50:36thank you for
50:36thank you for
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