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From the Gaza Strip to the Occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem, and against the backdrop of rising regional tensions, what are the key dynamics shaping this moment for the Occupied Palestinian Territory? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Her Excellency Dr Varsen Aghabekian Shahin, Minister of Foreign Affairs and Expatriates of the State of Palestine.
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00:10Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This.
00:14This is the show where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of
00:18the day.
00:19From the Gaza Strip to the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem,
00:24against the backdrop of rising regional tensions,
00:28the question we're asking tonight is what are the key dynamics shaping this moment for the occupied Palestinian territory?
00:35Today on the show, I'm delighted to introduce my distinct honour to speak with Her Excellency Dr. Varsin Aghabeqian Shahin,
00:44who is Minister of Foreign Affairs and Expatriates of the State of Palestine.
00:50She joins us now from Ramallah in the occupied West Bank.
00:53Your Excellency, thank you so much for being on the show with me today.
00:55If I may begin our conversation by focusing on the situation in the Gaza Strip.
01:00Can you help us here in Malaysia better understand the current situation in Gaza,
01:06particularly in terms of the humanitarian access and the current state of the ceasefire?
01:15Well, thank you for hosting me.
01:18Gaza is under enormous tension these days.
01:25It has been undergoing a genocidal war for the last 30 months.
01:29And you can appreciate what happened in Gaza in those 30 months.
01:35Everything in Gaza is in shambles and the needs of the people are enormous.
01:42But what we are seeing today, after five months of the peace agreement that was signed in Sharm el-Sheikh,
01:49that things are not moving in the direction of easing the pain of our people.
01:53Our priority today, first and foremost, is to cater to the immediate relief needs of the people.
01:59And today, these needs are not being met because humanitarian assistance is not entering to the extent that it should
02:08enter.
02:09The crossings remain closed or partially open to very, very few people going in and out.
02:17The infrastructure is in shambles.
02:20The health care system is not working.
02:24There are 20,000 people who are awaiting to receive immediate medical care because of injuries and chronic illnesses
02:33and without being able to get the medical attention that is needed.
02:38Thousands, hundreds of thousands of children are still out of school.
02:43Basic services are not being delivered to the people.
02:47People are still living in tents.
02:49Over a million Palestinians who have been displaced in Gaza are living in tents that are flooded in water.
02:56So no matter how you look at it in Gaza, the situation is extremely grave.
03:01And five months after the ceasefire, the expectations of the people are big.
03:07And rightly so, after being subjected to the enormity of the pain they were subjected to, their expectations are high.
03:17And they know a peace agreement was signed and they want to see something delivered on the ground.
03:23They cannot wait much longer.
03:26Their needs need to be met immediately.
03:29There was a lot of media attention when the peace agreement was signed, when the ceasefire was announced.
03:37Your Excellency, do you think there is a gap between what's being reported in the media
03:42and the lived reality on the ground after five months of the peace agreement?
03:49Yes, the lived reality on the ground needs to be in the limelight because this is the daily reality of
03:56the people.
03:57Peace agreements are signed on paper, but unless people see things materializing on the ground until they see that their
04:04needs are met,
04:05they will be skeptical about any peace process or any peace agreement.
04:12What we are asking today is that that peace agreement came with specific items and specific phases.
04:18What we need to see done is for the guarantors of that agreement to put the sides to account.
04:26Whoever is stalling needs to be questioned and needs to be asked to comply.
04:31We need to move through the phases and the items of that agreement so that people will see that their
04:38needs are somehow met.
04:41How would you characterize Israel's current endgame in the Gaza Strip, both from a military perspective and also from a
04:50political perspective?
04:52Well, from a military perspective, we are seeing that Israel is continuing its aggression in Gaza because that aggression has
05:00not stopped.
05:00Our people in Gaza are still being killed, our people in Gaza are still being injured, infrastructure is still being
05:09demolished, and Israel is continuing.
05:13Today, Israel occupies 54% of the Gaza Strip, and it is instituting this line that separates Gaza and entrenches
05:26the Israeli occupation in Gaza.
05:28So politically, we see that Israel has plans to stay in Gaza for much longer than the world believes it
05:39will stay.
05:40And Israel says very clearly, and many of its officials say it, that they will not leave Gaza.
05:46They want to stay in Gaza and create more settlements in Gaza and regain the Jewishness of Gaza as if
05:54Gaza was ever Jewish.
05:56This is what we are hearing.
05:58So politically and militarily, the indications are that Israel is continuing its aggression on Gaza unless it is deterred to
06:05do so by international law, by the guarantors of the Sharm el-Sheikh agreement.
06:10And if I may shift the focus to the occupied West Bank, what's the current situation there?
06:15I think I'm asking specifically around whether you've noticed any shifts in terms of the scale of the occupation, the
06:26level of impunity surrounding settler violence.
06:30We're reading some in the headlines, in the news, but what is the reality on the ground in the occupied
06:35West Bank?
06:36The reality on the West Bank is as grave and as volatile.
06:42And this has been an Israeli policy ever since day one of its occupation, because settlement expansion is on the
06:49rise.
06:51Settler violence is intensifying to unprecedented rates.
06:56We have an institution of new Israeli laws on annexation, legalizing annexation on the West Bank.
07:06We have a new law on the death penalty of Palestinian prisoners.
07:11And all of these are discriminatory laws.
07:14They are laws that have no legal base, and they are in stark violation of international law and signed agreements.
07:21Everything that is happening on the West Bank is happening because Israel feels it can do whatever it does.
07:29If Israel could get away with impunity on whatever it did in terms of its genocide in the Gaza, and
07:37that is the crime of the crimes, then it can do anything.
07:40And Israel believes it is entitled to do anything.
07:45And if this impunity continues, and no accountability and no shouldering of responsibility continues, Israel will continue with its aggression,
07:55and it will continue jeopardizing the life and dismantling the life of the Palestinian people.
08:02Your Excellency, you mentioned settlement expansion a bit earlier, and in recent news reports, we've seen members of the Israeli
08:11cabinet making explicit remarks about this, about territorial expansion, not just in the Gaza Strip, not just in Occupied West
08:18Bank, but also in Lebanon and Syria.
08:21Can I ask you, how seriously is the Palestinian leadership taking these statements as a policy signal?
08:29Very, very, very seriously, and the Palestinian leadership has been warning about this for decades.
08:37Until today, we see it said very openly.
08:41It's not under the table.
08:42Israel does not shy away from saying its intention on not just stopping occupying just the West Bank, Gaza, and
08:51East Jerusalem.
08:52They want to go beyond that, because that's part and parcel of their ideology and their strategy towards greater Israel.
08:59And they say, our idea of greater Israel is to take chunks of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, even reaching Saudi Arabia,
09:09Iraq, and maybe parts of Turkey.
09:11And now they say it very openly.
09:13So this is a policy by Israel, and they're going by that policy.
09:19And anything Israel says needs to be taken very seriously.
09:23And today we see it on the ground.
09:24I mean, what country wages a war on six neighboring countries in a few months?
09:32And that's also part of that policy.
09:35Right.
09:35Based on what you're seeing, what you're hearing, your briefings, I'm sure that you receive, Your Excellency, how are you
09:42assessing the internal dynamics of the Israeli government?
09:45Are there voices within Cabinet that call for constraints on escalation, on expansion?
09:54Well, look, not to the extent that is needed, and not to the extent that it will deter this expansionist,
10:02colonialist ideology.
10:03We need to see much, much higher voices, not only from the Israelis, but from the world.
10:09Because Israel's policy has not changed since seven decades.
10:14And today they are legalizing their criminality.
10:17When they talk about officially annexing the West Bank, that's criminal.
10:23It's against international law.
10:25It's against signed agreements.
10:26And they're trying to officialize it.
10:28It's not a matter of doing bits and pieces.
10:31They're talking about the whole of the occupied territory.
10:35And the world needs to stand up and say today very clearly that enough is enough.
10:42And in your engagements, Your Excellency, internationally, what are you observing?
10:47Where do you see the biggest gap between what governments say publicly and what they are willing to support privately?
10:58Today, we need to give some credit to many governments that are publicly voicing discontent with the situation and their
11:08willingness to take measures.
11:09Because some countries have already taken measures which we could not believe that they would take a few years ago.
11:17We need to embolden that.
11:19We need to empower that.
11:21We need to amplify that.
11:22But today, there are economic measures that can be taken.
11:26And there are sanctions against the Israeli violent settlers that can be taken.
11:32They can support more accountability mechanisms internationally.
11:36There are several measures that countries can take to deter an occupied state.
11:42And in all our talks, diplomatically, all over the world, we try to put pressure in that direction.
11:49Because that's the only language that an occupied state understands.
11:55The occupied state needs to see that measures hit home.
12:01If there is no price to be paid by an occupied state, that occupied state will continue its wrongdoing.
12:10And may I ask you what we here in Malaysia can do?
12:14Because Malaysia has been vocal.
12:17But how do we go beyond statements?
12:20Beyond statements, where do you see Malaysia having real diplomatic leverage?
12:27I think Malaysia can do a lot.
12:30Malaysia is a waiting country.
12:32In Asia, in the Muslim world, in the world at large.
12:36They can do a lot in terms of mobilization, diplomatic mobilization,
12:42talking to countries about the measures that need to be instituted.
12:46They can talk about legal support.
12:48They can help us legally in international forums.
12:52They can talk about economic support.
12:55There are so many issues that Malaysia can be engaged in.
12:59And it has been engaged in the past.
13:02And we are much appreciative of Malaysia's role.
13:04But we need it to continue with its humanitarian leadership and continue with countries that have not recognized Palestine to
13:13push towards that recognition.
13:15Because recognition places Palestine in a legal context and it safeguards its legal position as a state.
13:25Could you expand on that, Your Excellency?
13:29Talk to me about the benefits or the real repercussions, the real-life repercussions of governments around the world recognizing
13:38the statehood of Palestine.
13:41Well, the statehood, as I said, gives us a push in terms of our legal status.
13:47And recognition is irreversible.
13:50Once a state, a country, recognizes Palestine, there is no going back.
13:55And the more countries recognize, the more pressure there is worldwide that Palestine is a state.
14:01And the borders of that state are the 1967 borders because our recognition is on the 1967 lines.
14:10Today, we have 160 countries that have recognized.
14:13We still have some 30-plus countries that need to recognize.
14:17And any push in that direction will empower the state of Palestine because we will start dealing with the state
14:25that recognizes us as a state.
14:27And there are state-to-state obligations.
14:30And that strengthens the position of the state of Palestine.
14:34So, Malaysia as a single country can play its part.
14:37But I think Malaysia as part of a regional bloc, as part of ASEAN, can also play its part.
14:44What, in your view, Your Excellency, would constitute meaningful support, meaningful action from not just Malaysia,
14:53but also ASEAN as a regional bloc at this point, beyond, I guess, statements of support?
15:00Yes, Malaysia and ASEAN as a bloc can do a lot because they carry a lot of weight.
15:06And they can do a lot in terms of everything that I just listed.
15:11In recognition, economic, humanitarian assistance, legal support, mobilization.
15:19If you do it as a bloc, it becomes much stronger.
15:23Right.
15:23And do you have a message for the people of Malaysia, the government of Malaysia today, who may be watching
15:32this very conversation?
15:34I would say thank you very much for all the support.
15:37This is what we expect from Malaysia.
15:39Malaysia is a friendly country to the Palestinian people and has done a lot in terms of development and humanitarian
15:45assistance.
15:46And this is what we expect from the friendly Malaysian people and the friendly leadership in Malaysia.
15:51We, Palestine, needs a lot of support.
15:55And the question of Palestine is a question that is of concern to the world.
16:01It's a test to the world.
16:02And as such, all countries that respect international law, that respect the human beings as human beings and the rights
16:11of the human beings as enshrined in international law, need to come to the support of a just and sustainable
16:20peace in Israel-Palestine.
16:22And that peace can only happen if the rights of the Palestinian people are respected and upheld.
16:30Your Excellency, may I ask, you brought up international law.
16:33Is that something that Palestinians still believe in?
16:40Largely, it has failed them on the world stage.
16:45How do we reconcile the double standards that we're seeing in terms of the application of international law?
16:54How effective have the legal avenues been so far in terms of the International Court of Justice, the International Criminal
17:02Court?
17:02Are they changing perceptions or even hope on the ground in Palestine?
17:09You are right.
17:11International law has failed us numerous times.
17:14But would we want a world without international law?
17:18Would we want a world ruled by the more powerful, devouring the weaker?
17:24No.
17:24International law today is under a lot of threat.
17:27But a world with international law under threat is better than a world without international law.
17:33We need to continue saying that our compass is international law.
17:37We have resolutions as per international law that cannot be erased because today international law is under threat.
17:46These resolutions are a backup for all our demands legally and politically.
17:52We have cases in international courts.
17:55We have an opinion by the highest international court, albeit not materializing on the ground.
18:01But this non-materialization does not erase the fact that they are present.
18:06We will continue saying that international law is our compass and our rights are enshrined in that international law.
18:13And we continue to call for no double standards because all people in this globe should be treated equally and
18:22all countries must be treated equally.
18:25Since the beginning of this genocidal war, beginning after October 7th, have you noticed the change in the way international
18:37actors are engaging with Palestine on an international level?
18:42I'm wondering what international actors are currently genuinely exerting leverage on Israel right now?
18:51Yes, we see change and we need to acknowledge that.
18:55And that change has come through the blood of the Palestinians, through the sufferings of the Palestinians.
19:01It's just a shame that it took so long for that recognition to happen and that change to happen.
19:07But at this point in time, we see that countries have changed course.
19:13Many countries are talking about the wrongdoings and taking measures against the wrongdoings.
19:19People are very much sympathizing with the Palestinian people because they have seen what an occupier state could do in
19:27terms of genociding the other and continuing their violations and talking blatantly about it.
19:33We need to amplify this empathy and move this from empathy to actual policy of the countries these people are
19:44in.
19:45Because if the policy does not change, then the measures on the ground will remain very simplistic.
19:52Can we take this moment to maybe educate many of us who support the Palestinian liberation?
20:00But what would true liberation look like in practice for Palestine politically, socially, morally?
20:08Politically, it would mean that my country becomes a sovereign and liberated country from occupation.
20:16We have extended our arms to making peace in 1988.
20:21And now, four decades after that extension of the arm, we see an entrenchment of the occupation.
20:27So politically, I want my country to be freed.
20:31I don't want to be under occupation.
20:32I don't want my children and grandchildren to be subjugated to this brutal occupation.
20:39Socially, we need to breathe.
20:40We are people who have been under occupation, suffocating for eight decades.
20:46Nobody embraces occupation.
20:49We know it from history.
20:51Every occupied nation struggles against occupation.
20:56And Palestinians are no different.
20:58Although today, our struggle is nonviolent.
21:01We espouse the official leadership line is nonviolent struggling against occupation.
21:10But we need to see that that nonviolence brings us something in return.
21:15Today, it hasn't yet.
21:17But we don't lose hope because Palestinians are very resilient.
21:22And we have a case that is based on rights.
21:26And our rights are enshrined in international law.
21:29We have a right to self-determination.
21:31And one day, we will rise and we will get rid of this occupation.
21:35I hope that day comes soon.
21:37I hope so too.
21:39Your Excellency, my final question to you.
21:42A lot of attention has shifted away from Gaza to other regional tensions, particularly after the ceasefire.
21:51And I want you to end this conversation with maybe your message to the audience tonight as to why it's
21:57important that we don't shift our lens,
22:00shift our perspective, shift our attention, and not to conflate ceasefire with peace.
22:09Ceasefire is just ceasefire.
22:11It's just that.
22:12Peace means the entirety of the occupied territory.
22:15Peace in the Gaza Strip, on the West Bank, in East Jerusalem, for all the Palestinian people.
22:22If some think that peace can take place in one portion or one side of the Palestinian territory, but violations
22:32continue on the other, that is not peace.
22:34So we want that ceasefire to become sustainable and peace to become on the entirety of the occupied territory, being
22:42seen as one entity, because that entity is not separable.
22:49You cannot separate East Jerusalem from the West Bank from the Gaza Strip.
22:53So peace means peace on the entirety of the West Bank.
22:58And that, the Palestinian issue, must not be marginalized.
23:02It must not be overlooked.
23:04But we know it has been overlooked because people's attention goes to other places when there is conflict somewhere else.
23:12What we are trying to say is that the root cause of conflict in the Middle East, in the region,
23:19and beyond, is the Israeli occupation.
23:22If that root cause is managed and solved once for all, many of the issues surrounding us will also be
23:30solved.
23:31Your Excellency, thank you so much for joining on the show.
23:34I hope to have you, that you would visit us in Malaysia soon.
23:38We'll host you here in Malaysia one day.
23:40I hope so too.
23:41Thank you very much.
23:42Thank you so much for your time.
23:44That was Her Excellency Dr. Varsin Agha Bekin Shahin there, wrapping up this episode, I'll Consider This.
23:49I'm Melissa Idris, signing off for the evening.
23:52Thank you so much for watching and good night.
23:54Thank you so much for watching and good night.
24:09You
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