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01:37But it is an intense evolutionary adaptive benefit and system
01:43That said though, I would almost push back against an evolved system
01:50When we think about the question of sleep and what sleep is
01:54Our assumption has always been that we evolved to sleep
01:58And I've actually questioned that
02:01And I have no way to get in a time capsule and go back and prove this
02:05But what if we started off sleeping
02:08And it was from sleep that wakefulness emerged
02:12Why do we assume that it's the other way around?
02:15And I think there's probably some really good evidence
02:19That sleep may have been the proto-state
02:22That it was the basic fundamental living state
02:26And when we became awake, as it were
02:30We always had to return to sleep
02:33In some ways at that point
02:35Sleep was the price that we paid for wakefulness
02:38And that's another way of describing what sleep is
02:41But again, I think it sort of denies the active state of sleep
02:46It's not a passive state of sleep either
02:49And then finally you can say what is sleep across different species
02:53And in us human beings and in all mammalian species and avian species as well
02:59Sleep is broadly separated into these two main types
03:02And we've got non-rapid eye movement sleep on the one hand
03:05And then we've got rapid eye movement sleep on the other
03:08And we can speak about how they unfold across the night
03:11And their architecture
03:13Because it's not just intellectually interesting
03:16From the perspective of what sleep is
03:18It's also practically impactful for our daily lives
03:22And I'd love to sort of go down that route too
03:24But you navigate, you tell me
03:26Let's definitely go down that route
03:27So you mentioned how active the brain is
03:30During certain phases of sleep
03:32When I was coming up in science
03:34REM sleep, rapid eye movement sleep
03:37Was referred to as paradoxical sleep
03:39Is that still a good way to think about it?
03:41Paradoxical because the brain is so active
03:43And yet we are essentially paralyzed, correct?
03:46Yeah, it really is a paradox
03:47And where that came from was simply the brainwave recordings
03:51That if all I'm measuring about you is your brainwave activity
03:57It's very difficult for me
03:59Sitting outside of the sleep laboratory room
04:01To figure out are you awake
04:03Or are you in REM sleep?
04:05Because those two patterns of brain activity
04:07Are so close to one another
04:09You can't discriminate between them
04:11Yet the paradox is that when you are awake
04:15I go in there and you're sort of sitting up
04:17You're clearly conscious and awake
04:19But yet when you go into REM sleep
04:22You are completely paralyzed
04:26And that's one of the
04:28I think that's part of the paradox
04:30But the paradox really just comes down to
04:32Two dramatically different conscious states
04:35Yet brain activity is dramatically more similar than different
04:41And the way I can figure out which of the two you are in
04:44Is by measuring two other signals
04:46The activity from your eyes
04:48And the activity from your muscles
04:50So when we're awake
04:53We will occasionally have these blinks
04:54And we'll have sort of saccades
04:56But during REM sleep
04:58You have these really bizarre
04:59Horizontal shuttling eye movements
05:01That occur
05:02And that's where the name comes from
05:04Rapid eye movements
05:06Are they always horizontal?
05:07Mostly they are horizontal
05:09That's interesting
05:09And that's one of the ways
05:10That we can differentiate them
05:12From other waking eye movement activity
05:14Because it's not always
05:16It can be sometimes horizontal
05:17But can also have diagonal
05:19And also vertical in that plane
05:23But then the muscle activity
05:24Is the real dead giveaway
05:26Just before you enter REM sleep
05:29Your brainstem
05:30Which is where the dynamics of non-REM and REM
05:34Are essentially played out
05:35And then expressed upstairs in the cortex
05:38And downstairs in the body
05:39When we go into REM sleep
05:41And just a few seconds before that happens
05:44The brainstem sends a signal
05:47All the way down the spinal cord
05:48And it communicates with what are called
05:51The alpha motor neurons in the spinal cord
05:53Which control the voluntary skeletal muscles
05:55And it's a signal of paralysis
05:58And when you go into dream sleep
06:00You are locked into a physical incarceration
06:04Of your own body
06:06Amazing
06:07Why would mother nature do such a thing?
06:11And it's in some ways very simple
06:14The brain paralyzes the body
06:16So that the mind can dream safely
06:18Because think about how quickly
06:21We would have all been popped out of the gene pool
06:23You know, if I think I'm
06:24You know, one of the best skydivers
06:26Who can just simply fly
06:28And I've had sometimes those dreams too
06:30You know, and I get up on my apartment window
06:33And I leap out
06:34You're done
06:35You're done, you know
06:36So that's one of the sort of
06:38That's part of the paradox of REM sleep
06:41Both its brain activity similarity
06:43Despite the behavioral state being so different
06:45And this bizarre lockdown
06:47Of the sort of brain
06:50Of the body itself
06:52Now, of course, the involuntary muscles
06:54Thankfully aren't paralyzed
06:57So you keep breathing
06:58Your heart keeps beating
06:59Is this why men have erections during REM sleep
07:02And women have vaginal lubrication during sleep?
07:05That's one of the reasons
07:06Part of the other reason though
07:08Is because of the autonomic activity
07:10So there is a nervous
07:12A part of our nervous system
07:13Called the autonomic nervous system
07:15And it controls many of the automatic behaviors
07:18And some of those are aspects
07:21Of our reproductive facilities
07:24During REM sleep
07:26What we later discovered
07:27Is that you go through these bizarre
07:30What we call autonomic storms
07:32Which sounds dramatic
07:33But it actually is when you measure them
07:35That you'll go through periods
07:37Where your heart rate decelerates and drops
07:40And your blood pressure goes down
07:42And then utterly randomly
07:44Your heart rate accelerates dramatically
07:46And what we call the fight or flight branch
07:49Of the autonomic nervous system
07:50Or the sympathetic nervous system
07:51Badly named because it's anything but sympathetic
07:54It's very aggravating
07:55And that all of a sudden fires up
07:58And then it shuts down again
08:00And it's not in any regular way
08:02And it's when you get those autonomic storms
08:04You get very activated
08:06From a physiological perspective
08:07That you can have these erections
08:09And you have vaginal discharge, etc
08:11But you're totally paralyzed
08:13But you are still paralyzed
08:14There are only two voluntary muscle groups
08:21That are spurred from the paralysis
08:24Bizarre
08:25One, your extra ocular muscles
08:27Because if they were paralyzed
08:29You wouldn't be able to have rapid eye movements
08:32And the other that we later discovered
08:34Was the inner ear muscle
08:36And we've got no good understanding
08:40As to why those two muscles groups
08:42Are spurred from the paralysis
08:44It may have something to do with cranial nerve
08:46But I don't think it's that
08:49I think it's perhaps something more sensory related
08:52Some people have argued that the reason
08:54The eyeballs are spurred from the paralysis
08:56Is because if your eyeballs are left
08:58For long periods of time inactive
09:00You may get things such as oxygen
09:02Sort of issues in the aqueous or vitreous humor
09:06And so the eyeballs have to keep moving
09:10Yeah, the drainage systems of the anterior eye
09:12Are made to require movement
09:13Exactly
09:14People with glaucoma have deficits in drainage
09:17Through the anterior chamber
09:18But there I'm speculating
09:19I'm also speculating when I ask this
09:23I would imagine that there are states in waking
09:27That also resemble slow wave sleep
09:29Or rather that there are states
09:31That slow wave sleep also resembles waking states
09:33You've beautifully illustrated how REM sleep
09:36Can mimic some of the more active brain states
09:39That we achieve in waking
09:40What sort of waking state
09:42That I might have experienced
09:44Or experienced on a daily basis
09:45Might look similar to slow wave sleep
09:49Non-REM sleep, if any
09:50It's a genius way of thinking about it
09:53Turn to the tables, I love it
09:54We almost never see anything like
09:57The true ultra slow waves
10:01Of deep non-REM sleep
10:02So we spoke about these two stages
10:04Non-REM and REM
10:06Non-REM is further subdivided
10:08Into four separate stages
10:10Stages one through four
10:11Increasing in their depth of sleep
10:13So stages three and four
10:15That's what we typically call
10:16Deep non-REM sleep
10:17Stages one and two
10:18So maybe take me through the arc of a night
10:20Just so that
10:21Yeah, yeah
10:21So I put my head down
10:23Well, for you
10:24What time do you normally go to sleep?
10:26So I'm usually sort of around
10:27Around about a 10.30 p.m. guy
10:30And usually I'll naturally wake up
10:33Sort of a little bit before seven
10:35Sometimes before 6.45 or seven
10:37I have an alarm set for 7.04
10:40And 7.04 just because, you know
10:42Why not be idiosyncratic?
10:44I don't know why we always set things
10:46On these hard numbers
10:47So, yep
10:49So when you
10:50So you go to sleep around 10.30
10:51So using you as an example
10:54Because I imagine a number of people
10:55Go to sleep at different times
10:56But 10.30 is about when I go to sleep
10:5811 is for me
10:59But
11:00So you go to sleep at 10.30
11:01So for that first
11:03Let's say three hours
11:04Of sleep
11:05What does the architecture
11:06Of that sleep look like
11:07As compared to the last three hours
11:09Of your sleep
11:10Before morning?
11:11Yeah
11:11So I should note that
11:13That sort of, you know
11:1410.30 to 7
11:15That's just based on my chronotype
11:18And my preferential
11:19It's different for different people
11:21I'm not suggesting that
11:22That's the perfect sweet spot
11:23For humanity's sleep
11:25It's just my
11:25But I imagine most people
11:27Probably go to sleep
11:29Somewhere between
11:3010.00 and
11:31P.M. and midnight
11:33And most probably
11:34Wake up between
11:355.00 and 7.00
11:36Or 5.30 and 7.30
11:38Yeah
11:39At least in
11:41If you look at
11:41Sort of First World Nations
11:42That's a typical sleep profile
11:45So
11:46When I first fall asleep
11:48I'll go into the light stages
11:50Of non-around sleep
11:51Stages 1 and 2
11:52Of non-REM
11:53And then I'll start to descend
11:55Down into the deeper stages
11:56Of non-REM sleep
11:57So after about
11:58Maybe 20 minutes
11:59I'm starting to head down
12:01Into stage 3
12:02Non-REM
12:03And then into stage 4
12:04Non-REM sleep
12:05And
12:06As I'm starting to fall asleep
12:08As I've cast off
12:09From the
12:10Usually with me
12:11Murky waters of wakefulness
12:13And I'm in the shallows
12:14Of sleep
12:15Stages 1 and 2
12:16My heart rate starts to drop
12:18A little bit
12:18And then
12:19My brainwave pattern activity
12:22Starts to slow down
12:23Normally
12:24When I'm awake
12:24It's going up and down
12:25Maybe
12:2620, 30, 40, 50 times
12:28A second
12:30As I'm going into
12:31Light non-REM sleep
12:33It will slow down
12:34To maybe
12:3415, 20
12:36And then really starts
12:37To slow down
12:38Down to about
12:39Sort of 10 or 8 cycles
12:40Per second
12:418 cycle
12:42Waves per second
12:44Then as I'm starting
12:46To move into
12:47Stages 3 and 4
12:49Non-REM sleep
12:49Several remarkable
12:51Things happen
12:52All of a sudden
12:53My heart rate
12:54Really does start
12:55To drop
12:56Oh and I'll come back
12:58To temperature
12:58I'm going to write
12:59Temperature down
13:00Because I always
13:00Forget these things
13:01Now I'm sadly
13:03In the foothills
13:03Of middle age
13:05So
13:05As I'm starting
13:07To go into
13:07Those deeper stages
13:08Of non-REM sleep
13:09All of a sudden
13:10Hundreds of thousands
13:12Of cells in my cortex
13:13All decide
13:14To fire together
13:16And then they all
13:18Go silent together
13:19And it's this
13:20Remarkable
13:22Physiological
13:22Coordination
13:23Of the likes
13:24That we just
13:25Don't see
13:26During any other
13:27Brain state
13:28That's really interesting
13:29Having recorded
13:30From the brains
13:30Of animals
13:31And a little bit
13:32From humans
13:32I don't think
13:33I've ever seen
13:33The entire cortex
13:34Or even entire regions
13:36Of cortex
13:36Light up like that
13:37Yeah
13:38It's stunning
13:39It's almost like
13:40This beautiful
13:41Sort of mantra
13:42Chant
13:43Or this sort of
13:44You know
13:45It's a slow
13:45Inhale
13:46And then a
13:47Meditative exhale
13:48Inhale
13:49Exhale
13:50And these waves
13:51Are just enormous
13:52In their size
13:53And the body
13:54Is capable of
13:55Movement at this time
13:55There is no
13:56Paralysis
13:57There is no paralysis
13:58But for the most part
14:00Muscle tone
14:00Has also dropped
14:02Significantly
14:03Interesting
14:03At that point
14:03And then you will
14:05Or I will
14:06Then stay there
14:07For about
14:07Another 20 or 30 minutes
14:09So now I'm maybe
14:1060 or 70 minutes
14:12Into my
14:12First sleep cycle
14:14And then I'll start
14:15To rise back up
14:16Back up into stage
14:18Two non-REM sleep
14:19And then after about
14:2080 or so minutes
14:21I'll pop up
14:22And I'll have a short
14:23REM sleep period
14:24And then back down
14:26I go again
14:26Down into non-REM
14:28Up into REM
14:29And you do that
14:31Reliably
14:31Repeatedly
14:32And I will be doing that
14:33And I do do that
14:34Every 90 minutes
14:36At least that's the
14:38Average for most adults
14:40It's different
14:40In different species
14:42What changes
14:43To your question
14:44Is the ratio
14:45Of non-REM
14:46To REM
14:47Within that
14:4790 minute cycle
14:48As you move
14:49Across the night
14:50And what I mean
14:51By this is
14:52In the first half
14:53Of the night
14:53The majority
14:54Of those 90 minute
14:55Cycles
14:56Are comprised
14:57Of lots of
14:58Deep non-REM
14:59Sleep
14:59That's when I get
15:00My stage 3 and 4
15:01Of deep non-REM
15:02Sleep
15:02Once I push through
15:04To the second half
15:05Of the night
15:06Now that seesaw
15:07Balance changes
15:08And instead
15:09The majority
15:10Of those 90 minute
15:11Cycles
15:11Are comprised
15:12Either of this
15:13Lighter form
15:14Of non-REM
15:15Sleep
15:15Stage 2
15:16Non-REM
15:16Sleep
15:16And much more
15:18And increasingly
15:19More rapid
15:20Eye movement
15:21Sleep
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