- 2 hours ago
Catch up with all the latest political news across the county with Rob Bailey, joined by Cllr Thomas Mallon from Kent County Council and Local Democracy Reporter Ollie Leader.
We discussed the Swanscombe landslip and rising fuel prices.
We discussed the Swanscombe landslip and rising fuel prices.
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TVTranscript
00:21Welcome to the Kent Politics Show on KMTV. I'm Rob Bailey.
00:25Coming up, we'll discuss the threat of fuel price protests in Kent.
00:28But first, we all live near a road which seems to be permanently closed by roadworks.
00:34Swanscombe residents have had it harder than most.
00:37It's been three years since a landslip closed the A226 Galley Hill Road.
00:41And with an estimated repair bill of £50 million, the road stayed closed.
00:46Now there's hope that a government fund can cover the cost.
00:50Dartford MP Jim Dixon has urged KCC to make a strong bid for the funding.
00:54Local democracy reporter Oli Leder found out what impact the closure has had on the community.
01:01No party poppers or sing-alongs in Swanscombe for this anniversary.
01:06Just dozens of residents commiserating the day Galley Hill Road partially collapsed three years ago.
01:14Leaving the narrow streets of the town flooded with lorries and traffic with no end in sight.
01:21The roads just do not take cars, vehicles.
01:26And sometimes HGVs.
01:28Yeah, and it's been horrendous for all of us, it really has.
01:33Just even walking down the street here, several times where the cars have mounted the pavements, I've nearly been run
01:40over.
01:41And it's been a really close course.
01:43Supposedly we're in the rich, afferent South East.
01:46It isn't.
01:46This is one of the poorest communities in Kent and they just feel totally neglected.
01:51Frustration isn't hard to find here in Swanscombe.
01:54It was just days before this protest that the best part of 100 people crammed into a public meeting.
02:02One with more questions than answers.
02:04Are there any way that we can look at health of our children?
02:08The thing is, it's a major incident. The road is closed.
02:11Highways are the responsibility of Kent County Council.
02:14The cash-strapped authority has already spent more than £1 million drawing up plans for a replacement bridge
02:22or reinforced embankment to get the road reopened.
02:26But these options are set to cost upwards of £50 million.
02:31Money the council does not have.
02:34There's no certainty. And so, like I say, guarantee is a very strong word.
02:39All I can guarantee is that we are doing our utmost to make sure we can get the funding.
02:44But I cannot guarantee that that funding will come because that's the reality we live in.
02:52The government is set to make £1 billion available to help local authorities with road repairs in the coming months.
03:00But KCC will have to bid for a slice of that money rather than simply just receiving it.
03:08Well, we were in a situation a year ago where there was no money on the table to fix Galley
03:12Hill Road.
03:13We now have a fund we can bid into.
03:16I'm very confident that when that fund is announced that Galley Hill Road and the need to repair it will
03:25be absolutely four square within the criteria.
03:27The confidence of the local MP was not shared by everyone at the meeting.
03:33After all, even if the money comes through, it may be 20, 30 or later before works are completed.
03:40They're not doing anything. They're not doing anything. They just come and talk.
03:44So, I don't know when it's going to happen. It's really terrible. Every single day.
03:49Every year we come to these meetings and every year there's promises made and people pushing the blame to each
03:57other.
03:58Nothing changes. Nothing changes.
04:00The hope is that a solution could get planning approval later this year.
04:06But if KCC can't get the funding, Galley Hill could face yet another roadblock.
04:13Olly Leader in Swanscombe.
04:16And here with me is Reform's Thomas Mallon, who represents Swanscombe and Greenhithe at Kent County Council,
04:22and local democracy reporter Olly Leader. Thank you for joining me.
04:26We've seen Jim Dixon, the Dartford MP there, Thomas, saying that he's very strongly backing a bid.
04:33He has said, end the chaos, get the work underway.
04:36I wonder whether you can update us this week on where we stand in terms of KCC making a bid
04:41for that money.
04:44Well, it's in the process at this moment in time.
04:47What we have to understand from the government is there's certain criteria that have to be met
04:52and there's certain hoops that still have to be jumped through.
04:56And we have to find out what those hoops are, what criteria's have to be met in order to make
05:01this case possible.
05:02Kent County Council have applied several times to ask what this fund would be needed,
05:08how we would use this fund, sorry, how we would need to apply for this fund and how we get
05:14the fund.
05:14And we were met with no response for months and months and months.
05:18But gladly now, the government has announced this fund is available.
05:22So we can put forward our best case to see what can happen in the future.
05:26And then hopefully we can get something done.
05:28What kind of timeline do you expect this? How long will this take?
05:34The bid timeline can take up to months.
05:37I mean, it's not an easy solution, to be honest.
05:40We don't know how quick the government can work.
05:42In other instances when I've had to work with government agencies,
05:46it can take months and months and months because it's the bureaucracy factor of the issue.
05:50From a Kent perspective, as soon as we have the planning approved,
05:55as soon as we have the grants funding available,
05:58we can actually put in place an option one or option two of the bridge and an earth embankment.
06:04Obviously, option one I prefer is the bridge.
06:07And that would only take 18 months from start to finish after we've achieved the fund.
06:12But I mean, these funds, it's like a lottery.
06:15It's almost like a postcode lottery of who in the country has the best bid.
06:20I mean, these funds should be made available to the residents of Dartford and Swanscombe immediately.
06:25I mean, the fact that it's a postcode lottery, it beggars belief.
06:29This is a major infrastructure failure and it needs to be fixed soon.
06:34Oli, you've been covering this for a while for us.
06:37Can you explain a little bit more about what this fund is and what these criteria are that need to
06:41be met for the project?
06:42I mean, this was actually announced last year.
06:45Jim Dixon says when he invited the roads minister to come out to see Swanscombe herself that she came up
06:50with this infrastructure's fund.
06:53But KCC still has a bid for this money.
06:56It's essentially for repairing layovers, old bridges, infrastructure in the UK that needs some TLC.
07:03Obviously, Swanscombe is a prime example of the sort of things the infrastructure project is designed for.
07:10But the funding still needs to be applied for.
07:14This is something that Toby Howe was saying that essentially you can draw up all the plans that you want,
07:20but the government don't give you the money or you can't get it from a private backer such as the
07:26Garden City company in Ed's Fleet or another big infrastructure company or something like that.
07:32Essentially, the plans to fix Swanscombe are dead in the water.
07:37That's why this fund is so critical, because an authority like KCC cannot afford to spend a quarter, a fifth
07:45of its entire highways budget for the year on just one project.
07:49And that was something that came through in the video we just watched as well, the idea that there's no
07:53guarantees.
07:54Peter Osborne has said this, he was challenged about what happens if the government doesn't give us the money.
08:00And he said from that point onwards, it's in the lap of the gods.
08:03Is that a reassuring enough message for the people of Swanscombe who are clearly very frustrated by what they've been
08:09living with for three years?
08:11What do you think? Sorry, Thomas.
08:12Well, yes. All right.
08:15But what I can see is behind the scenes, we are actually working on, say, Plan B, Plan C, Plan
08:20D.
08:21And like you mentioned earlier on, the Ebsolute Development Corporation could be a viable option to ask, as well as
08:29the government for loans.
08:30I mean, this infrastructure failure is holding up development in the area, not just round about the Ebsolute City Gardens
08:38area, but the North Fleet Harbour development is being holed up.
08:41And that's a multi-million pound project also, stopping Ebsolute Football Stadium from being redeveloped.
08:48It's stopping the whole area from being redeveloped and upgraded.
08:50So there's a lot riding on Gallagher Road to being fixed and being sorted out for the residents and the
08:57people of Dartford and Gravesham.
08:58So what we have to look at is other options.
09:01There is other options we can look at.
09:03So it's not a closed book as of yet, but obviously our preferred method of finance would be from government.
09:10And I do believe government should be prioritising this as one of the main infrastructure project redevelopments.
09:18And this has been going on for three years now.
09:21But not a lot of people know the first year of this was actually trying to get the landowners together
09:26to get permission to actually access the land.
09:29Because what happens is KCC only owned the top layer of the tarmac and then a metre downwards after that
09:36is only owned by KCC.
09:38So the whole of the chalk spine is owned by several different owners.
09:41And it took KCC over a year to get these owners round the table and able to discuss, are we
09:47allowed to use the land?
09:48Can we get on the land with their permission to do surveys and ground surveys to make sure the chalk
09:53spine would be eligible to be reused?
09:56So that's taken a bit of time, unfortunately.
09:58Oli, we've seen that. I mean, it's an extraordinary road when you see it, when it's just kind of perched
10:03on top of this narrow strip of chalk.
10:05Some of which, of course, gave away three years ago.
10:07What are the options that are there to kind of redevelop or to fix this problem?
10:11What has KCC got on the table?
10:13So essentially they can either build a bridge over the affected area or shore up that chalk spine with a
10:20reinforced wall.
10:22Both of those are incredibly expensive options, tens of millions of pounds.
10:27But that doesn't involve, for example, compulsory land purchases, maybe on the table to buy it from landowners who don't
10:33necessarily want to play ball or need to be relocated to other areas because their businesses won't be able to
10:39function.
10:39So a really significant situation in terms of council funding.
10:45I mean, on the flip side, though, this is vital infrastructure, as Thomas mentioned, for planning in the sense that
10:52other houses in the area won't get the planning permissions that they need if there isn't viable infrastructure or roads.
11:00And obviously the government has this big plan to get millions of homes built across the UK.
11:04So it so it wouldn't be surprising the government did give the money just to get other planning permissions in
11:11the area moving.
11:11I'll just ask you just quickly before we go to a break.
11:14Thomas, what do you think the chances are of having a new road in place by March 2030?
11:21Like Holly was touching on there, we have several options.
11:24We have option one, which is the bridge, and option two, which is the earth embankment.
11:28I mean, personally, my favourite and a lot of the KCC highway officers that I speak to, their favourite option
11:34is the bridge.
11:35As Ollie alluded to, compulsory purchases would be needed for an earth embankment.
11:41Sorry, we need to stop there. We might come back to it.
11:43But after a short break, we'll be talking about the skyrocketing price of fuel.
11:47Stay with us.
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15:06Welcome back to the Kemp Politics show on KMTV.
15:09Next, will our roads soon be gridlocked by fuel protests?
15:13The average price of petrol and diesel is at its highest point since the outbreak of the war in Ukraine.
15:18Police forces are said to be on standby after farming groups threatened to disrupt major roads in protests.
15:24Targets include the Dartford Crossing.
15:27Meanwhile, the government has run exercises to prepare for potential food shortages.
15:31All of it is linked to the United States war in Iran and its blockade of the Straits of Hormuz,
15:37a key trading route.
15:38Here's what farmer Philip Tassel told us about the impact on his business this week.
15:43Before the Trump war started, we were paying in the region of 70 to 76 pence per litre for red
15:50diesel,
15:51which meant my running costs per tractor per day were approximately £140 just on fuel.
15:57We're now paying, as of the Trump war, in the region between £125 and £145 per litre.
16:05So we're nearly doubled, so we've gone from £140 a day to nearly £300 a day.
16:11And because we do a lot of other work, flower mowing for people like Forestry England and what have you,
16:17we've got to try and suck that cost up because I don't want to lose our customers.
16:21So to put that price up dramatically is bad business, really.
16:26And still here with me is Reform's Thomas Mallon, who represents Swansecombe and Greenhive at Kent County Council
16:31and local democracy reporter Olly Leder.
16:34Thomas, we've seen a farmer there talking about the increased costs that he's suffered over the last six or so
16:41weeks since this war started.
16:43There have been ripples that have affected businesses and organisations across Kent as a result of particularly the prices of
16:51fuel rising.
16:52What can Kent County Council do?
16:54What can local authorities in general do to support businesses at a time like this?
17:01Well, I think this is not really a Kent County Council issue.
17:05This is more of a national issue.
17:06I mean, Kent County Council don't set the VAT rates on fuel.
17:11Kent County Council don't set the tax rates on fuel.
17:15Kent County Council don't have planning permission to dig in the North Sea or drive in the North Sea to
17:21gain fuel.
17:22I think this is more of a national issue.
17:25I mean, my heart goes out to all these small, medium-sized businesses and farmers.
17:29I mean, Philip just mentioned that his fuel prices have gone up astronomically, and that's for red diesel.
17:36I've actually seen on the forecourts that diesel for normal vehicles can be up to almost £2 a litre.
17:43I mean, this is absolutely phenomenal.
17:45But I think it's more of a national issue to maybe give a little tax break to small, medium-sized
17:51businesses, to give that little VAT break, bring down the price of diesel, let the small and medium-sized businesses
17:58operate.
17:59Because this is actually crippling the economy.
18:02And any protests would just make this worse.
18:07There was a Facebook post that went out, we reported on it earlier this week on KMTV, threatening protests on
18:15the 15th, 16th and 17th of April, which haven't happened.
18:19And one of the places where these protests were said to have happened would have been Dartford Crossing.
18:23But the police have been taking these threats as credible.
18:27They're on standby.
18:28What do we think the chances are, Rolly, of increased and ongoing disruption and possibly action being taken by people
18:36whose businesses are being threatened by this?
18:39I mean, I've attended protests my entire time here at KMTV, from the farmers' protest up in London to anti
18:46-immigration protests last year.
18:47We're in febrile times when it comes to our politics.
18:50And it wouldn't surprise me necessarily, as the weather gets better and more and more people are online.
18:56Obviously, we're seeing the post that we saw for this protest was AI-generated.
19:02This is the sort of thing that can spread like wildfire on a Facebook group.
19:06So it's not unsurprising that one of these things could snowball out into a wider protest.
19:12I mean, I was at some just last September where we saw hundreds of people descend in Favisham, in Canterbury.
19:19And the price of fuel impacts everyone.
19:22Obviously, we don't, there's no guarantee they will happen.
19:26We saw what happened with this big poster being sent around.
19:29The media gathered around expecting there to be a big protest.
19:32No one turned up.
19:33So it's one of those things with protests.
19:35It's how long is a piece of string.
19:37You never know who's actually going to turn up with these things.
19:39The only thing we do know for certain is that fuel prices are going to continue to remain high
19:44if the government doesn't find a way of addressing the geopolitics around fuel distribution and the energy grid.
19:52We've seen protests in Northern Ireland and Scotland, not yet in England.
19:56So there is that kind of rising kind of appetite for action, at least in some areas.
20:01And there's an organisation, Fair Fuel UK, which has been saying that it will take action soon.
20:07Its founder was Howard Cox, who stood as the reform candidate for London mayor at the last elections there.
20:14Thomas, I have to ask, given his relationship, his past in your party, do reform back protests like that as
20:21a form of direct action
20:22to try and force the government to do something to help businesses?
20:28I mean, thankfully, we live in a democracy where protest is a freedom of right in this country.
20:36Protests sometimes can be very useful, but sometimes protests can be actually harmful as well to the economy.
20:44If there was to be protests and unfortunately closed down the M25,
20:50this would be disastrous for some delivery companies.
20:55It would be disastrous for some small, medium-sized businesses coming from a warehouse and logistics background.
21:01If deliveries don't get made and they have to be sent out a second day,
21:04people's orders don't get fulfilled in time.
21:07I mean, we live in a just-in-time economy, so this could be disastrous for the economy.
21:12So I really do hope and pray that something can be done via the government.
21:17All across Europe, separate countries are actually lowering their own tax variations on fuel duties.
21:25So why can't we do the same?
21:27Why can't we alleviate the problem that's already been put in place by Silly Ed Miliband's green agenda?
21:34Why can't we put in things in place like drilling in the North Sea oil to alleviate some tax burdens
21:39we have in this country by creating jobs?
21:41I mean, these are all things that need to be looked at.
21:44We've got two oil fields in the North Sea that we could be looking at.
21:46I think one's called Jack, though I can't remember off the top of my head what the other one's called.
21:50But why don't we drill them, create jobs and try and alleviate the problem we're in by creating more tax
21:55revenue?
21:55So this is things that need to be looked at.
21:58Obviously, drilling wouldn't be a short-term solution to any of these problems.
22:02I wanted to ask you about a couple of creative policy ideas that have come out recently
22:06that would offer more of a short-term, potentially, solution to alleviate pressure.
22:10One is a trial in Glasgow of free public transport, trying to give people access to buses
22:16so that they don't have to pay for fuel in their cars.
22:19The other is this idea, also coming out of Scotland, about food price caps
22:24to try and make sure that costs aren't passed on.
22:27Do you support those kinds of policies to try and help people out?
22:35Well, I haven't seen the food cap pricing.
22:38That's a new one on myself, I'll be honest.
22:40But I did actually see in Glasgow about the bus fares being free to travel.
22:45But that's something maybe it's on a national level as well as a Kent level.
22:50If we could actually sit down with some operators, maybe Arriva and Fast Track and other operators in Kent,
22:57we might be able to come up with some sort of fair reductions.
23:00That might help.
23:02But again, without sitting down at the table, asking the questions,
23:04we don't actually know what could happen.
23:06So I can't actually say if we could do it or not.
23:09But it would be a great thing if we could.
23:12But can we is another thing.
23:13To be clear, though, I mean, looking at the budget papers from earlier this year,
23:17KCC are changing how the Kent Saver works in a way that will mean less people will be using it.
23:23I mean, we've seen authorities turning towards net zero solutions,
23:30such as EVs in Maidstone Borough Council for their lorry fleets, their bin lorry fleets,
23:34to save money because they're not reliant on those fuel prices.
23:37You mentioned the North Sea there.
23:39Lots of that money sold on the international market.
23:42That wouldn't necessarily go back to UK consumers.
23:44It might create jobs.
23:46So would solar farms.
23:47So would wind farms.
23:48Surely what you're suggesting wouldn't necessarily actually make it more sustainable
23:53for someone in Kent who's running a business or for a local authority trying to save money
23:58on what are rising fuel costs are impacting all sorts of services.
24:04Right.
24:05Well, you're conflating two different issues there.
24:07You're conflating national and local.
24:10So let's go to the national issue.
24:12If you were to drill in the North Sea, you would be directly pumping oil from the North Sea to
24:18the mainland
24:18and directly bring it in from the mainland.
24:20At this moment in time, we're asking other countries to ship it to us at extra cost.
24:26And also, we're not creating any jobs in that aspect.
24:29Also, with gas.
24:30Let's look at gas.
24:32We are actually shipping in gas from all over the world when we actually have it under our own oceans
24:37and our own seas.
24:38This gas has to be liquefied for transportation.
24:42It cannot be transported in a gaseous form.
24:45It has to be liquefied.
24:46And that has to be refined at cost.
24:48Then it's shipped over to here and then redefined into a gas again at extra cost.
24:54Now, that's cost to the British taxpayer.
24:55And if you're telling me that doesn't cost extra money to local businesses because of tax duty fares and VAT
25:02on top, I think you're away with the birds.
25:04Well, I'm not saying that.
25:05What I'm saying is that lots of this fuel is sold on the international market.
25:10If you were to start drilling in the North Sea, that wouldn't necessarily directly go to UK consumers.
25:17European countries could buy that.
25:18International countries could buy that.
25:20It doesn't necessarily address.
25:23Obviously, we've seen that KTC has even promoted its EV charging points recently as an example of good infrastructure practice.
25:34There are efficiencies to be found at a local level by pursuing policies that aren't dependent on fuel, aren't there?
25:45Yeah, I mean, the EV charging scheme is a great idea.
25:48I mean, I'm an open and democratic capitalist.
25:52I'll be honest about that.
25:53And if people want to buy electric cars, fantastic.
25:56Have an electric car, have an EV charger.
25:59Kent County Council will help in that aspect.
26:01But if you want to run a business using a diesel fleet, that's entirely up to you also.
26:06So to dodge the point that it costs this economy extra to ship in oil and gas and not bring
26:15it off from our own shores, again, is missing the point.
26:18Because if you were to raise your own tax capital from stuff that you've already brought in on your own,
26:24sold it on the market, again, it's cheaper than having it shipped in, which means you could lower taxes on
26:30the gas and fuel that we already use.
26:32I'm very sorry, but we'll have to end it there.
26:35That's all we've got time for here at the Kent Politics Show.
26:37Thank you to both of my guests for joining us today.
26:39And stay with us for Kent tonight for all the latest news from around the county.
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