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A prolonged dry spell is expected to last until June, raising concerns over water supply, haze, and public health. For those living in cities, the experience of heat can feel especially intense, but what’s driving that? Are cities themselves playing a role in shaping rising temperatures? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Murali Ram, Regional Director for East, Southeast Asia & Oceania at C40 Cities Climate Leadership Group, which is a coalition of cities leading climate action.
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00:10Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This. This is the show
00:15where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of the day. A prolonged
00:20dry spell is expected to last until June and that has raised concerns over water supply,
00:26haze and public health. But for those living in cities, the experience of heat can feel especially
00:35intense. The question we want to ask tonight is what's driving that? Are cities themselves playing
00:41a role in shaping these rising temperatures and how do urban environments interact with rising
00:48temperatures? Joining us to help us think all of this through is Muradli Ram, who is the Regional
00:53Director for East, Southeast Asia and Oceania at C40 Cities Climate Leadership Group, which
01:00is a coalition of cities which are leading city climate action. Muradli, good to have you back
01:07on the show. Maybe we can start with, I might say, a basic or straightforward question. Are
01:14cities actually hotter than other areas, surrounding areas? Or does it just feel that way to those
01:21of us who are city dwellers? Okay, so the short answer is yes. But it also depends from, there's
01:31also a difference between cities themselves. So what I mean is like, for instance, I'm from
01:35Penang originally, I live in KL now. And talking, just talking to people, and also from lived experience,
01:43Penang is hotter than Kuala Lumpur. And part of the reason is because where it sits on the,
01:49on the latitude, right, it's a bit, you know, higher up and closer too. So that's one. Now cities versus
01:57rural areas, definitely cities are hotter, because there's a phenomenon called the urban heat island,
02:03where cities themselves also generate heat and retain heat, and then sort of release it back into the
02:11immediate environment. So that causes its own sort of feedback loops. So yes.
02:16Okay, so talk to me about those cities, like the ones in Malaysia, like Penang, like KL,
02:24who, that experience these types of heat, and how humidity plays a factor in that. Because heat is not
02:33just about heat, it's also how we experience it with the humidity of the Malaysian climate.
02:39Yes. So there's something called the wet bulb temperature. So typically, when you have your,
02:45you know, nowadays, it's pretty good with Google, right? You say temperature today,
02:50and you'll say, oh, it's 34 degrees, but feels like 37. So that feels like 37 is often because of
02:57the
02:57humidity factor. And it's sort of, you know, there's a whole science behind it. And it's just that we feel
03:04definitely, you know, more sweaty and hotter. And it's interesting, because sometimes when you're
03:10traveling, you find that the heat appears to be macam sama, same, but it's actually cooler. And that's
03:18also because of less humidity, plus also wind factors. So when there's more wind, more breeze,
03:24that movement of air, there's a, you know, there's a sort of a more cooling impact as well. So
03:30definitely humidity plays a factor. But there's not much we can do about humidity, because this is,
03:37you know, the environment that we live in. But definitely, we could do things about radiation,
03:43and how do you reduce heat, or heating elements in the air, that's something that we can, we can
03:50definitely do in the city. Talk to me more about that. What do you mean by the heating elements in
03:57the air? And how does that interact with the built environment of a city?
04:01Okay, so I'll try to make it as simple as possible. So for one, you have, I talked to earlier
04:07about the
04:08urban heat island. So urban heat island is where you're in the city, and you feel it's really hot,
04:13right? And it's because you're being attacked from all directions. There's heat coming from above,
04:19the sun shining on you, so to speak. And then you've got heat radiating from the ground as well,
04:26right? When you're outside, I mean, right? So the heat is radiating from the ground as well.
04:29And then there's this sort of like trapping thing where, you know, there's not much air movement,
04:34etc, because you're surrounded by, well, built environment, really. So the way to address this
04:43is basically to increase, for instance, canopy cover. So a lot of cities have got this sort of
04:50target now. It's not about the number of trees you plant, but rather the canopy cover that it's
04:56provided, right? So that you have this sort of evo transpiration that's happening with the canopy cover
05:02that helps you, you know, keep cool or the whole precinct cool through, well, canopy. That's one.
05:12Second is to address the heat emanating from the ground, for instance, you rethink material. So you
05:21don't have asphalt, for instance. So how do you reduce asphalt? So you start thinking about a more
05:26car light environment, you depave your asphalt and replace with materials that are, you know, more
05:35natural, you know, natural color, you know, so you change color, you change permeable surfaces and all
05:42that sort of stuff, interlocking brakes. So that sort of thing actually also helps reduce because you
05:47don't have that asphalt holding the heat and pushing it back to you. And then also rethinking
05:52your orientation of your buildings. And when you're walking, for instance, you can actually,
05:59or the city can actually plan, or you yourself can plan playing with shade. So you already have
06:06building orientation, and the buildings will give you shade at a certain time of day. So how do you
06:13maximize shade to your benefit, right? And the city still also start thinking about where do we put in
06:20different walkways, etc, to sort of align with this. And then you can introduce covered walkways,
06:27etc. And then there's also this mist thing that, you know, Nasi Kanda shops are already doing that,
06:32you know, to help you keep cool, right, to give you that sort of thing. And the last thing is
06:37on,
06:38there's also a wind strategy that you can play with. So cities can also use wind direction
06:45in a particular city to sort of create these wind tunnels. And then and then sort of it sort of
06:52helps,
06:52you know, sort of cool, direct the debris, so to speak, right. And along with that, in open spaces,
07:00you can introduce mechanical ventilation, like big fans and all that you already see that happening,
07:05right. So this big fans will help move the air and sort of help you with managing heat. So that's
07:12kind of
07:12things that you can do in the outdoor environment from, from a material, you know, sort of intervention
07:18kind of thing. Right. Okay, so you listed a whole list of potential solutions. I just want to clarify
07:24something before we move forward. You said urban heat island effect that just to clarify, that's not
07:30just for islands experiencing that, right? That's not just an island. No, no, that's basically the urban,
07:36the cities, right? The name of it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, sorry. So yeah, yeah. It's called an urban
07:41heat
07:42island effect, UHI. Okay. And it's basically how you describe the city as an island. Brilliant. Okay, so here's
07:51my question. In your description of some of the solutions, it sounds brilliant. But what about cities that
07:56are already built? And I do wonder whether cities like KL, like Penang can realistically redesign
08:03themselves fast enough to keep up with the rising temperatures? Because you talked about things like
08:07the orientation of buildings and playing with materials or changing different materials such as
08:13asphalt. How likely can we remove some of the things that have already been built versus how quickly can we
08:20help cities be more resilient to rising temperatures? Well, as we stand at the moment, I think we kind of
08:28already have all these cities around the world and in our country, and there's a lot of rural to urban
08:34migration. So there's not so much new cities being built, right? But we can definitely reimagine what our
08:41current cities can look like. And definitely, this is something that is already happening in many cities,
08:48cities, right? So they start to think about, but I think a lot of, sorry, I just take a little
08:53bit of a
08:53detour. One of the biggest issue is the car centric city model. And that is where, you know, a lot
09:04of the
09:04heat actually is also coming from, from your cars, you know, emanating heat from your IC engines. And then you
09:12have the asphalt that is the infrastructure for the car to sort of sit on and move around. So you
09:19already have that.
09:20Plus, there's an added element of the soot of black carbon that is emitted along with the car. So that
09:29is also a
09:30heating element that is in the air. So it's not only, you know, that part of the UHI is also
09:35this sort of black carbon that's being
09:36released. And that traps so much more immediately the heat compared to carbon dioxide generally, right?
09:44And then there's another thing, which is methane. So methane is produced when, you know, basically decomposing
09:51of what you call that organic material, right? Your waste and all of that. So this actually has got another
10:00element called the ground level ozone. So the methane then mixes up with the oxygen and it comes up with
10:07this ground level ozone, which is another problem that adds to the heat. So it's multi-pronged. But
10:17anyway, coming back to the car. So if we are starting to think about reimagining the city, then we need
10:23to
10:23start thinking also about, you know, how do we plan for a car light environment, right? So one thing we
10:32could do is maybe pilot these solutions in certain areas, especially in areas where there's already a
10:41very good network of public transportation, for instance, right? So if you take our Kuala Lumpur, for
10:47instance, we've actually got a really good public transport system, how can we then choose areas
10:54that say, okay, this area is going to be, let's say, a low emission zone, right? Then you can start
10:59thinking about sort of the better air quality and better heat management together in these areas
11:05with fewer cars or maybe just allowing electric vehicles, rethinking the paving, etc. So yeah, it has to
11:13go hand in hand, actually. Right. Are there cities that are doing that well in your experience in your
11:18work with C40? Okay, so I think the sort of the obvious examples would come more from the more
11:25advanced or west cities. So you have London, you have Paris, for instance. So Paris has gone through
11:34under the previous mayor and Hidalgo. I think over the last 10-15 years, they've actually gone through a
11:41process of reducing cars, increasing walkability, changing the sort of the way the pavements are,
11:51etc. And that's sort of like been a success and it's been rolled out slowly more and more and more.
11:56London is also doing it to increase, improve the walkability and all of that. And they have these
12:02things called low emission zones. And now they've got ultra low emissions on as well. It's like, oh,
12:08you know, only certain kinds of vehicle can be used, etc. But these are the sort of thinking that
12:12they are already doing. Over to this part of the world, you have Singapore is already starting to
12:19think about what they can do. And they are already piloting these solutions, also thinking about
12:25greening buildings. So they're adding like, you know, canopy cover on the walls, on the roofs, for
12:31instance, to sort of manage heat, more sort of mechanical ventilation in public areas, etc.
12:39In Melbourne, they have a whole cooling program that's been running for 10 years. It's called
12:44Cooling Melbourne. So you can read about it. And it's all about how do you create canopy cover across
12:52the city to manage the heat during summer months. And the summers there can be more intense than our
12:59temperature in Malaysia, right? And they actually people who actually suffer from heat strokes,
13:05etc. So a lot of cities are already thinking about this and kind of doing stuff.
13:11Well, I hope Malaysia and specifically the cities in Malaysia are also going to be doing stuff.
13:17Murali, thank you so much for being on the show with us. Murali Ram from C40 Cities Climate
13:22Leadership Group there. We're going to take a quick break here on Consider This. We'll be back with more.
13:26Stay tuned.
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