00:10Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This. This is the show
00:15where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of the day. A prolonged
00:20dry spell is expected to last until June and that has raised concerns over water supply,
00:26haze and public health. But for those living in cities, the experience of heat can feel especially
00:35intense. The question we want to ask tonight is what's driving that? Are cities themselves playing
00:41a role in shaping these rising temperatures and how do urban environments interact with rising
00:48temperatures? Joining us to help us think all of this through is Muradli Ram, who is the Regional
00:53Director for East, Southeast Asia and Oceania at C40 Cities Climate Leadership Group, which
01:00is a coalition of cities which are leading city climate action. Muradli, good to have you back
01:07on the show. Maybe we can start with, I might say, a basic or straightforward question. Are
01:14cities actually hotter than other areas, surrounding areas? Or does it just feel that way to those
01:21of us who are city dwellers? Okay, so the short answer is yes. But it also depends from, there's
01:31also a difference between cities themselves. So what I mean is like, for instance, I'm from
01:35Penang originally, I live in KL now. And talking, just talking to people, and also from lived experience,
01:43Penang is hotter than Kuala Lumpur. And part of the reason is because where it sits on the,
01:49on the latitude, right, it's a bit, you know, higher up and closer too. So that's one. Now cities versus
01:57rural areas, definitely cities are hotter, because there's a phenomenon called the urban heat island,
02:03where cities themselves also generate heat and retain heat, and then sort of release it back into the
02:11immediate environment. So that causes its own sort of feedback loops. So yes.
02:16Okay, so talk to me about those cities, like the ones in Malaysia, like Penang, like KL,
02:24who, that experience these types of heat, and how humidity plays a factor in that. Because heat is not
02:33just about heat, it's also how we experience it with the humidity of the Malaysian climate.
02:39Yes. So there's something called the wet bulb temperature. So typically, when you have your,
02:45you know, nowadays, it's pretty good with Google, right? You say temperature today,
02:50and you'll say, oh, it's 34 degrees, but feels like 37. So that feels like 37 is often because of
02:57the
02:57humidity factor. And it's sort of, you know, there's a whole science behind it. And it's just that we feel
03:04definitely, you know, more sweaty and hotter. And it's interesting, because sometimes when you're
03:10traveling, you find that the heat appears to be macam sama, same, but it's actually cooler. And that's
03:18also because of less humidity, plus also wind factors. So when there's more wind, more breeze,
03:24that movement of air, there's a, you know, there's a sort of a more cooling impact as well. So
03:30definitely humidity plays a factor. But there's not much we can do about humidity, because this is,
03:37you know, the environment that we live in. But definitely, we could do things about radiation,
03:43and how do you reduce heat, or heating elements in the air, that's something that we can, we can
03:50definitely do in the city. Talk to me more about that. What do you mean by the heating elements in
03:57the air? And how does that interact with the built environment of a city?
04:01Okay, so I'll try to make it as simple as possible. So for one, you have, I talked to earlier
04:07about the
04:08urban heat island. So urban heat island is where you're in the city, and you feel it's really hot,
04:13right? And it's because you're being attacked from all directions. There's heat coming from above,
04:19the sun shining on you, so to speak. And then you've got heat radiating from the ground as well,
04:26right? When you're outside, I mean, right? So the heat is radiating from the ground as well.
04:29And then there's this sort of like trapping thing where, you know, there's not much air movement,
04:34etc, because you're surrounded by, well, built environment, really. So the way to address this
04:43is basically to increase, for instance, canopy cover. So a lot of cities have got this sort of
04:50target now. It's not about the number of trees you plant, but rather the canopy cover that it's
04:56provided, right? So that you have this sort of evo transpiration that's happening with the canopy cover
05:02that helps you, you know, keep cool or the whole precinct cool through, well, canopy. That's one.
05:12Second is to address the heat emanating from the ground, for instance, you rethink material. So you
05:21don't have asphalt, for instance. So how do you reduce asphalt? So you start thinking about a more
05:26car light environment, you depave your asphalt and replace with materials that are, you know, more
05:35natural, you know, natural color, you know, so you change color, you change permeable surfaces and all
05:42that sort of stuff, interlocking brakes. So that sort of thing actually also helps reduce because you
05:47don't have that asphalt holding the heat and pushing it back to you. And then also rethinking
05:52your orientation of your buildings. And when you're walking, for instance, you can actually,
05:59or the city can actually plan, or you yourself can plan playing with shade. So you already have
06:06building orientation, and the buildings will give you shade at a certain time of day. So how do you
06:13maximize shade to your benefit, right? And the city still also start thinking about where do we put in
06:20different walkways, etc, to sort of align with this. And then you can introduce covered walkways,
06:27etc. And then there's also this mist thing that, you know, Nasi Kanda shops are already doing that,
06:32you know, to help you keep cool, right, to give you that sort of thing. And the last thing is
06:37on,
06:38there's also a wind strategy that you can play with. So cities can also use wind direction
06:45in a particular city to sort of create these wind tunnels. And then and then sort of it sort of
06:52helps,
06:52you know, sort of cool, direct the debris, so to speak, right. And along with that, in open spaces,
07:00you can introduce mechanical ventilation, like big fans and all that you already see that happening,
07:05right. So this big fans will help move the air and sort of help you with managing heat. So that's
07:12kind of
07:12things that you can do in the outdoor environment from, from a material, you know, sort of intervention
07:18kind of thing. Right. Okay, so you listed a whole list of potential solutions. I just want to clarify
07:24something before we move forward. You said urban heat island effect that just to clarify, that's not
07:30just for islands experiencing that, right? That's not just an island. No, no, that's basically the urban,
07:36the cities, right? The name of it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, sorry. So yeah, yeah. It's called an urban
07:41heat
07:42island effect, UHI. Okay. And it's basically how you describe the city as an island. Brilliant. Okay, so here's
07:51my question. In your description of some of the solutions, it sounds brilliant. But what about cities that
07:56are already built? And I do wonder whether cities like KL, like Penang can realistically redesign
08:03themselves fast enough to keep up with the rising temperatures? Because you talked about things like
08:07the orientation of buildings and playing with materials or changing different materials such as
08:13asphalt. How likely can we remove some of the things that have already been built versus how quickly can we
08:20help cities be more resilient to rising temperatures? Well, as we stand at the moment, I think we kind of
08:28already have all these cities around the world and in our country, and there's a lot of rural to urban
08:34migration. So there's not so much new cities being built, right? But we can definitely reimagine what our
08:41current cities can look like. And definitely, this is something that is already happening in many cities,
08:48cities, right? So they start to think about, but I think a lot of, sorry, I just take a little
08:53bit of a
08:53detour. One of the biggest issue is the car centric city model. And that is where, you know, a lot
09:04of the
09:04heat actually is also coming from, from your cars, you know, emanating heat from your IC engines. And then you
09:12have the asphalt that is the infrastructure for the car to sort of sit on and move around. So you
09:19already have that.
09:20Plus, there's an added element of the soot of black carbon that is emitted along with the car. So that
09:29is also a
09:30heating element that is in the air. So it's not only, you know, that part of the UHI is also
09:35this sort of black carbon that's being
09:36released. And that traps so much more immediately the heat compared to carbon dioxide generally, right?
09:44And then there's another thing, which is methane. So methane is produced when, you know, basically decomposing
09:51of what you call that organic material, right? Your waste and all of that. So this actually has got another
10:00element called the ground level ozone. So the methane then mixes up with the oxygen and it comes up with
10:07this ground level ozone, which is another problem that adds to the heat. So it's multi-pronged. But
10:17anyway, coming back to the car. So if we are starting to think about reimagining the city, then we need
10:23to
10:23start thinking also about, you know, how do we plan for a car light environment, right? So one thing we
10:32could do is maybe pilot these solutions in certain areas, especially in areas where there's already a
10:41very good network of public transportation, for instance, right? So if you take our Kuala Lumpur, for
10:47instance, we've actually got a really good public transport system, how can we then choose areas
10:54that say, okay, this area is going to be, let's say, a low emission zone, right? Then you can start
10:59thinking about sort of the better air quality and better heat management together in these areas
11:05with fewer cars or maybe just allowing electric vehicles, rethinking the paving, etc. So yeah, it has to
11:13go hand in hand, actually. Right. Are there cities that are doing that well in your experience in your
11:18work with C40? Okay, so I think the sort of the obvious examples would come more from the more
11:25advanced or west cities. So you have London, you have Paris, for instance. So Paris has gone through
11:34under the previous mayor and Hidalgo. I think over the last 10-15 years, they've actually gone through a
11:41process of reducing cars, increasing walkability, changing the sort of the way the pavements are,
11:51etc. And that's sort of like been a success and it's been rolled out slowly more and more and more.
11:56London is also doing it to increase, improve the walkability and all of that. And they have these
12:02things called low emission zones. And now they've got ultra low emissions on as well. It's like, oh,
12:08you know, only certain kinds of vehicle can be used, etc. But these are the sort of thinking that
12:12they are already doing. Over to this part of the world, you have Singapore is already starting to
12:19think about what they can do. And they are already piloting these solutions, also thinking about
12:25greening buildings. So they're adding like, you know, canopy cover on the walls, on the roofs, for
12:31instance, to sort of manage heat, more sort of mechanical ventilation in public areas, etc.
12:39In Melbourne, they have a whole cooling program that's been running for 10 years. It's called
12:44Cooling Melbourne. So you can read about it. And it's all about how do you create canopy cover across
12:52the city to manage the heat during summer months. And the summers there can be more intense than our
12:59temperature in Malaysia, right? And they actually people who actually suffer from heat strokes,
13:05etc. So a lot of cities are already thinking about this and kind of doing stuff.
13:11Well, I hope Malaysia and specifically the cities in Malaysia are also going to be doing stuff.
13:17Murali, thank you so much for being on the show with us. Murali Ram from C40 Cities Climate
13:22Leadership Group there. We're going to take a quick break here on Consider This. We'll be back with more.
13:26Stay tuned.
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