- 18 hours ago
Te Ao With Moana S07E16 H 264
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00:00Thank you so much.
00:40Thank you so much.
01:14Thank you so much.
01:29I live here in Kaikuhi with my siblings and we just lived here so it's opposite us where the little
01:37girl passed away and it's about coming together. It's about unity.
01:41It's about sending the message out there that children are our tonga, children are tomorrow and the generations to come.
01:58Fathers, grandfathers, uncles and brothers. They all came from all walks of life because this was also about tāne and
02:06what it means to be a man.
06:17Thank you so much.
06:20Well, there's a lot of pūtea coming into this part of the north for social rehabilitation,
06:25but it has to be, the cops have to do their job.
06:28Where people consistently smash over the boundaries,
06:32then they held to be a count, locked up for us, as I'm concerned.
06:36But sadly, the cops can't arrest society out of these dramas.
06:41And I would say to kaikohe, whānau leaders need to intervene rapidly.
06:49When they see dysfunctionalism, remove kids from a dangerous situation,
06:54and in many cases, remove them from their whānau,
06:57if the whānau themselves are enveloped in a drug-riddled level of social mayhem.
07:04But it's also a wake-up call for the people managing these housing complexes.
07:09I'm very harsh on kainga ora, and I'm equally harsh on the ngāpuhi management of the housing complex,
07:16that if you're not going to retain a level of authority and maintain standards,
07:22then the drug-riddled cancer will occupy those areas, and we can't have it.
07:30Dr Lance O'Sullivan has worked the front line of health, addiction and abuse.
07:35What are we missing that's keeping our children safe?
07:40It's all those drivers that contribute to child death and child murder,
07:44that's, you know, demoralised, despondent, disenfranchised communities.
07:50And, you know, so who, where does that, where's the answers for that lie?
07:54Where do they lie?
07:55That's a big question.
07:57But it comes at an individual level.
08:00It's us seeing signs of abuse, seeing signs of neglect,
08:05and actually saying something about it.
08:07So, yeah, I mean, we all know times when we've, you know, maybe seen a bruise,
08:12and we sort of said, hey, should that be something we should ask the question about?
08:17And obviously, you've driven here like a lot of, many people,
08:20so why did you come here today, I guess?
08:22Okay, so 14 years ago, I was involved in a child murder in Kaitaia,
08:28and the child was two years of age, and I was working in the Kaitaia emergency department,
08:32and that child was murdered, and I was, I had a lot of PTSD from that, actually,
08:37looking after a Maori child who died, same age as my, you know, child who's 17 now.
08:43And I'm here for that, you know, my own selfish reasons.
08:46To see that happen again in our community so close to home is heartbreaking, to be honest.
08:53Solidarity, you know, there's all these whānau here from Kaikoe and a whā
08:57to support this idea that, you know, it's not, this is not right.
09:01We are not a country that we could be proud of if we see our tamariki,
09:06our mokipuna die in these circumstances.
09:08So, yeah, I guess it's a massive concern that even over a decade later,
09:13we're still seeing this.
09:17Northland towns like Kaikohe are currently battling overwhelming odds.
09:21Wastewater testing has revealed meth use tripling in the north over the past year,
09:26higher than anywhere else.
09:28And just last month, ngā puhi chair Manitāhere
09:31controversially called for an all-Pōtuki-style police raid
09:35on affected communities and their meth dealers.
09:39I think a sharp electrical jolt needs to be administered, as happened in Ōpōtuki.
09:49Tōkai Kohe.
09:51Money is showing courage and boldness.
09:56And I feel, as a 65-year-old Māori political identity, I should support money.
10:05Partly, I came over today because I felt that money's voice was a lonely voice.
10:11Why do you think it's a lonely voice?
10:13Well, there's an element of takamā, and look, it goes against the grain.
10:20I'm sure that this mokopuna suffered at the hands of someone who has themselves been unable
10:31to deal with addiction and all sorts of other social problems.
10:35So, this is a difficult area.
10:38How, as a Māori identity or Māori leader, do you shine the torchlight of the dysfunctionalism
10:47in your own community, because you will be branded as being a kūpapa or a sell-out of
10:53your own community.
10:54And that's what makes Winston and I different politicians.
10:57We don't bother about those epithets.
11:00We know that all pockets of communities are challenged by drug-related dysfunctionalism.
11:10It's disproportionately strong in Tai Tokerau, but it's not purely an ethnic thing.
11:15I mean, we don't have an ethnic problem.
11:20We have got problem ethnics, and they are fuelled by drugs and violence.
11:26And I am planning what's left of my political career to be their worst nightmare.
11:33I think if P is the issue, and it is an issue, of course, I know that.
11:38But there are deeper things, and whatever way to clean that up, if there's the shock word,
11:48I'm not repelled by it straight away, I've got to say.
11:51But it's what's left behind.
11:54It's just where the real work and the cleaning and the wātauna, all of those things, that's
12:01the longer journey.
12:02That's the deeper journey.
12:04We all want to protect our tamariki and mokopuna.
12:07How do we do that, I guess?
12:09What are some steps forward?
12:10It's to be with them.
12:13Five minutes out of your time, out of your busy life, is all they need.
12:18They need that love.
12:19They need their manaaki.
12:21They need you.
12:24They don't need mum or dad on the device.
12:28You know, they don't need mum or dad taking drugs.
12:31They need mum and dad just to be with them.
12:34This is how we grow.
12:36This is how the children grow in love.
12:57Such a beautiful wee girl.
13:02So now what?
13:04More after the break.
13:23Tia Ashby is the Chief Executive of Te Hauora o Ngāpuhi, which oversees the community
13:29housing project where Katalia was attacked while visiting.
13:33My first question to Tia was, tell me something about Kaikohe.
13:38Kaikohe is a beautiful town.
13:41We have creative artists.
13:43We have entrepreneurs, innovators, future leaders.
13:48It's a town that's full of mana and resilience.
13:50And often the negative headlines that we see in the newspaper doesn't portray the beauty that
13:59is Kaikohe.
14:00How are your team and how is the community inside that housing complex feeling after this?
14:08They're feeling hurt.
14:10They're feeling the heaviness of what's occurred.
14:14They're feeling scared that something could happen again if the system doesn't change.
14:19The issues we're experiencing here aren't just in Kaikohe.
14:23They're across the country.
14:25And it's not just within that housing complex.
14:27It's other parts of the neighbourhood.
14:29So this little girl was killed in this housing project that you manage.
14:37And Shane Jones says it's a wake-up call for those managing those complexes to maintain a
14:44level of authority and standards.
14:46Is that a fair comment from him?
14:49No, it's not.
14:50The responsibility is everyone's basically.
14:54And your role is to manage this place?
14:58Yes.
14:58Just tell me what that involves.
15:00So what we get is a list of people from the social housing register and they're allocated
15:09a priority rating.
15:11And based on that, we have to place them into our units.
15:14I'd say 95% of those tenants are fantastic.
15:19Rent's paid on time.
15:21Some of them grow beautiful gardens.
15:23They look after one another.
15:26They're living in safe, warm, secure homes.
15:285% of them, however, we have persisting challenges associated with managing these complex tenancies.
15:40And so often there's hidden vital information that resides with other government agencies,
15:46such as police, justice, child protection services, mental health and addiction support services
15:57that we don't have visibility over.
15:59So if someone ends up being a tenant and then the red flags and the neighbours notice,
16:06oh heck, this person's got some real issues and we don't feel safe, what is your response?
16:13We cannot evit.
16:14That's the role of the Tenancy Tribunal.
16:16We will go and approach the tenant to say, you know, a breach has occurred.
16:22This is what's happened.
16:24Can we offer you any supports?
16:26If it's addiction issues, the individual has to want support and help.
16:32You can't force someone to enter into rehab or enter into support services.
16:37So that's one challenge we have.
16:40Another challenge is referring to specialist services that don't exist.
16:46Another challenge that's significant for us is that because there's no emergency housing
16:53and there's a limited housing supply across all of Te Taitokerau,
16:59even if you do evict, eight times out of ten, they're going to re-enter our housing as an emergency
17:08housing client.
17:09Most of the time it's not just the tenants, it's their visitors.
17:13And when you've got loitering and unruly guests coming all hours of the night,
17:20policing that is quite a challenge.
17:22And so what practical things do you think would make a difference?
17:27Well, for me, some of the short-term solutions I definitely think are going to work
17:31is real-time sharing, inter-agency, sharing of information, especially for high-risk clients.
17:38Drug testing of tenants before placement occurs.
17:43There needs to be inter-agency, proactive planning and collaboration.
17:49Housing providers need to have some level of control over that housing register.
17:57And last but not least, what we're needing in the short term is a safe, anonymous way
18:04for people to report their concerns and not necessarily through government agencies.
18:09Or it could be a 800 line where people can feel safe,
18:17where they don't feel they're going to be judged
18:19or that there's going to be no other consequences
18:23to them reporting that information.
18:26After the break, what might the long-term circuit breakers be?
18:47Kia ora no.
18:49Katalia's death on May 21 is set against a myriad of difficult and interconnected issues.
18:54Mane Tahere, Ngā Puhi Chair, suggested that police raids similar to those in Ōpōtuki
19:00could be just one of many tactics to deal to the meth crisis.
19:04Rawan Nordstrom, retired after 30 years working with whānau through SIPs in Oranga Tamariki,
19:10still gets contacted from children of women she helped back in the day.
19:14So many cycles.
19:16First, I asked former Deputy Police Commissioner Wally Haumaha
19:19who needs to step up and how.
19:23When you say who needs to step up,
19:25over decades our people have been trying to stand up in different periods of time.
19:32And it's not a problem that's simply fixed overnight
19:36when you think about the social problems in our society
19:39that are impacting on our young people right across the spectrum of criminal justice.
19:45So, Rawan, Lance O'Sullivan said that we need to step up
19:50and see if there are signs we need to do something.
19:54Does that resonate with you?
19:55Oh, absolutely.
19:56You know, I've always believed that we need to be brave enough
19:59to stand there and say to someone,
20:01I don't like what you're doing to that baby.
20:03Give me that baby here and I'll look after her.
20:05And then when you sort yourself out, you come get your baby back.
20:08You know, like I think that we all need to be the aunties.
20:12You know, we all have those aunties and uncles that will tell you off,
20:16hug you when you're sad, give you a telling off when you're bad.
20:20We need those aunties to step up in all our communities
20:25and be the village because a lot of our people that are out there
20:29don't have the village around them to support them.
20:32I mean, I was in court two weeks ago
20:34with two supporting two young mums who were also state wards
20:39to try and get their children back.
20:41Now, there was no one there for them.
20:43There was no whānau because they'd been disconnected.
20:45There was no social record because they'd been discharged
20:47from that care a long time ago.
20:50They were there on their own.
20:51It was really sad.
20:52I support the kōrero around fathers
20:55and around our males and our rangatira of our hāpuri
21:01alongside our māreikura.
21:04And so we need more pono kōrero with ourselves.
21:08And I say everybody needs to step up, system, OT, everybody.
21:12But I'm focusing on ourselves, looking into ourselves.
21:16I sit with our marae, with our hapu every month.
21:19And we're talking about how do we have those tough conversations?
21:23Go and talk to your brother.
21:25Go and talk to your sons, your aunties, your sisters,
21:29those who are either distributing.
21:33And have the kōrero a whānau first.
21:35It's uncomfortable.
21:36I think for our community,
21:38we're just in a situation where it's enough, it is enough.
21:41So, Wally, for over 40 years,
21:46you've been a policeman
21:47and been leading development of strategies
21:50that I guess would be more collegial
21:53or collaborative with iwi and with community leaders.
21:57So what's your response to any call that,
22:00OK, let's just bring in the police,
22:02bring in the police and just do the shock treatment?
22:05Police have a strategy.
22:07They have to respond in the first instance if the balloon goes up.
22:10But then there's the short-term to medium interventions.
22:13So what's happening in that community?
22:15How are they planning?
22:17How are they getting the right information?
22:18How are they getting the right intelligence?
22:20And how do they deploy to beat that demand
22:23or that situation at that point in time?
22:26You know, so that intelligence needs to come from community.
22:29So when you're talking about police and iwi,
22:31you're absolutely right.
22:32It's a two-way street.
22:33And we can't be mutually exclusive of each other.
22:36We've got to work together.
22:37So money, Shane Jones, was up there supporting your call
22:42for, I guess, a bit of shock treatment.
22:44Why did you make that call?
22:45We need more baseline police.
22:47There's not even enough of that.
22:49Around those raids, that's police's job.
22:51I'm not a vigilante group or...
22:54But what I really, in the context of that,
22:57have wanted was prior to those surges and those raids,
23:04there was a high wastewater count.
23:07After, immediately after, that dropped off by half.
23:10That's what I want for kai kui.
23:11I love kai kui.
23:12I love our towns.
23:13And so we're in that crisis where we need that short sharp.
23:18I've also met with community providers
23:21and looked at what happened in Opootiki
23:23and how do we prevent the fallout
23:25with our whānau in Tamariki.
23:26So there's awesome people in our towns,
23:29but ignoring the hard call,
23:32it wasn't going to make that...
23:33I think we'll be better off in the long run.
23:36Wally, where do we go from here?
23:38Because, yes, the police can come in
23:40and do the short sharp shift,
23:42but what else needs to happen?
23:43It's not just a police issue.
23:45It's not just a government issue.
23:46It's not just those government agencies.
23:49However, if they're sitting in those positions
23:51and they've got all the information
23:53to be able to drive the support services
23:56into iwi entities,
23:58then that's what we should be doing.
23:59It doesn't abrogate one or the other
24:01of their responsibility to step up.
24:04And so, I mean, you know,
24:05you think about the things that we've done over the years.
24:08Te pai oranga.
24:09Looking at giving our people a second chance,
24:11you know, in developing programmes up in Kaitaia,
24:15down in Whangarei, across Taranaki,
24:18right through the region.
24:20You know, that is a programme
24:22that actually identified the problems
24:24that our people were going through
24:26without having to kick the doors in.
24:28Once those people came into the system,
24:30and of course shoplifting was the most prevalent offence
24:33that you could pick up in this whole piece.
24:36And so, you know, when we sat down
24:38and said to the police, you know,
24:39OK, you've arrested that woman for shoplifting.
24:42She's had seven previous convictions for shoplifting.
24:45You know, so why would you lock her up an eighth time
24:48without understanding the reasons why?
24:50And often it was no kai in the cupboards,
24:54kids are hungry, no employment in there,
24:57your mother getting beaten,
24:59all of the stuff,
25:00all of those issues that have social harm around,
25:03family harm, kids going to school,
25:04you know, feeling as though they've lost their self-worth,
25:08the neglect, the abuse.
25:10All of those things come in.
25:12And I know at the moment it's absolutely raw
25:14to think about how do we step up
25:16to support the families in our community
25:18who are suffering under the weight
25:19of this horrific homicide in Kaikohe.
25:22When you think about the red flag,
25:25somebody in those families knows.
25:26They know what's happening,
25:28but do they have the courage to step out?
25:30And do we have the courage to step in?
25:32Because somebody in that situation up in Kaikohe,
25:35somebody must have seen something in the past
25:38and not said anything.
25:40And do you think, Raewon,
25:43that some of the whanau that you support,
25:46that they're likely to bring the police?
25:49They're not likely to call the police
25:51and that's the unfortunate thing.
25:52They'll look for, I mean, look at that.
25:54Some of these mums,
25:55they call someone that they knew
25:57when they were teenagers
25:58going through child, youth and family.
26:00I think that they need to have
26:02definitely some other form of gathering support.
26:07We're talking at this point in time,
26:10how do we create platforms within hapu and marae
26:13that are like a call helpline,
26:15like an anonymous call.
26:17And actually,
26:18kaumatua have a really important role
26:21to play here as well.
26:22They can traverse across that concept of nāking
26:26because they've had a life experience
26:28and they're looking after mokopuna.
26:30And so I'm having conversations with kaumatua.
26:33Happy to have the kōrero.
26:34We need to make sure it's safe, though.
26:36If I can just touch on the hikoi and katalia,
26:39it was so emotional.
26:40That hikoi was about celebrating that tamariki.
26:43That taonga, he tapu te mokopuna.
26:45And so I just really don't want to throw shade
26:49on everybody who has to contribute.
26:51Just get over ourselves and get to doing the solutions,
26:54whether you're government or not,
26:56or whānau or not.
26:58Kick up the dust.
26:59Empty the tank on this.
27:01Everyone in the now,
27:02but the generations to come will be better.
27:06Last words, Rowan?
27:07So my thoughts are be brave.
27:09Be that auntie, be that uncle
27:11that says to someone,
27:13hey, bro, you know, you need some help.
27:16Give me your baby until, you know,
27:18you get some help.
27:18I'll look after your baby.
27:19Wally?
27:20I think that alternative justice programme
27:22around getting people in front of our own people
27:25who can provide the services,
27:27can provide follow-up.
27:28It's a safety mechanism.
27:29It has all the key elements of providing
27:33aroha, tautoko, manaaki
27:35to not only the offender,
27:38but to the offender's family
27:39and also the victims.
27:41So this is a way of bringing that all together.
27:43Otherwise, we'll be sitting here
27:45in another five years saying,
27:46what are the alternative pathways
27:48to keep our people out of prison
27:49if they commit crime?
27:51You know, are we the architects of interventions
27:53that are going to prevent this long term?
27:55Are we simply the interior decorators
27:57that are going to step up
27:59when, you know, when the going gets tough
28:00and suddenly we all come out and say,
28:02oh my God, how did that happen?
28:05Good point, Wally.
28:07We want to be the architects,
28:09not the interior decorators.
28:10So many cycles to break.
28:12And as our guests suggest,
28:14everyone, including we as individuals,
28:17need to step up.
28:18Our hearts go out to the people in Kaikohe
28:21and once again to the parents and whānau
28:23of 15-year-old Kaia Karoudia.
28:26There's been an outpouring of aroha for the family.
28:29We want to thank everyone
28:30who has reached out to the police
28:32and to us with information around Kaia's death.
28:36Please keep it coming.
28:38Pō marie.
28:39Pō marie.
29:09Pō marie.
29:10Pō marie.
29:10Pō marie.
29:12Pō marie.
29:13Pō marie.
29:13You
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