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catching up with the royals with rev richard coles s01e09
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00:00Hello and welcome to Catching Up With The Royals, the show that never complains but always explains.
00:05With me, Richard Coles.
00:06And me, Emily Andrews.
00:08This week, it's question time and we're going beyond the palace walls as we answer some of your burning royal
00:14questions.
00:15We still crown our kings and queens, nobody else does.
00:19Because of course there are other royal families in Europe even.
00:22We've got the shiniest one though.
00:24But why? Why do you think ours is the shiniest?
00:26From how much influence the royal family really have over politics and the issues they're most passionate about.
00:32Officially, the monarch has to invite someone to become prime minister.
00:37Where would we be were Donald Trump not a bit dazzled by royalty?
00:41To the effect William and Harry's fallout is having on their own children.
00:45William and Catherine haven't met Lily. I think they've met Archie only once or twice.
00:51I do find that very sad.
00:52That also means that Archie and Lily have no relationship with their cousins.
00:57And with Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor facing fresh police scrutiny, we ask, do his close protection officers have a duty to
01:04speak?
01:10So Richard, hello.
01:11Hello.
01:12This week has seen the enthronement of the new Archbishop of Canterbury, Sarah Mullally.
01:18Can I just say something?
01:19Of course.
01:19An invitation I turned down to be with you.
01:22I am so touched.
01:24Me, Sarah, I'm glad you chose me.
01:26Of course.
01:27And the Prince and Princess of Wales were there because they are the represent of the crown when the Archbishop
01:34is enthroned or formally installed.
01:37And I wanted to ask you, Richard, you are our resident Christianity expert on Man of the Cloth.
01:42Yeah.
01:42At Kingston Palace, William's team briefed the Sunday Times on William's Christianity.
01:49Now, having reported on Prince William for some time, his faith and Christianity has always been a bit of a
01:59question.
02:00The narrative has been a question.
02:02Does he believe?
02:02No, he's not Prince William.
02:04He's missed some important church services.
02:06People have wondered whether he even believes in God or even the Church of England in comparison to his father,
02:11who's, we know, very spiritual, defender of the faith and defender of the faith.
02:16And a devout member of the Church of England.
02:18He is.
02:19So, KP has said that the Prince of Wales' commitment to the Church of England is sometimes quieter than people
02:27expect.
02:27And for that reason, it's not always fully understood.
02:30His connection to the Church and to the sense of duty that comes with it runs deep.
02:35What do you think?
02:36Well, I think that's a very interesting statement because you've got something here that needs ironing out.
02:41The sovereign is the supreme governor of the Church of England.
02:44It comes with the territory.
02:46When the sovereign is crowned, they are also anointed.
02:49It's almost like an ordination as well as a coronation.
02:52Now, the queen was very devout.
02:54The king is very devout.
02:55It's hard to see evidence of that in Prince William so far.
02:58You shouldn't try to look into the content of people's souls and work out what's going on.
03:02But I've noticed that Prince William hasn't said anything which I think would reassure people
03:08who do expect the monarch to be front and centre and confident in their churchgoing and their representation and advocacy
03:17of the Church.
03:18Because I thought it was interesting, his commitment to the Church of England.
03:21It didn't say to God.
03:23It said to the Church of England.
03:25So, I thought that was interesting.
03:26Well, God is Church of England, you see.
03:27Am I making a wrong distinction?
03:30Is Church of England and God one and the same?
03:32I think there's a constitutional issue here that the monarchy and the Church hang together.
03:37And if one goes, it's hard to see how the other one manages without it.
03:41So, that's really important, I think.
03:44I mean, the other thing that's interesting about it, I think it's very interesting what he's said.
03:47He's not said one way or another, I do believe or I don't believe.
03:51He's refused to be black and white about it.
03:52And for most people, matters of faith tend to be tone, grey.
03:56And he's a very private man and we don't know much about his opinions on really anything.
04:02I think he follows the late Queen in that respect.
04:05And he does want to keep a lot of things private.
04:08And faith is one of those things that a lot of people feel is a private matter.
04:11The trouble is you can't do that if you're Supreme Governor of the Church of England.
04:14Your faith is, by definition, if you're that, a public matter.
04:18Because it's also important to remember he wouldn't be the first sovereign, if he gets to be sovereign,
04:21whose faithfulness to Christian teaching and doctrine might be open to question.
04:26This is true.
04:27So, you know, that's okay.
04:28But it's the willingness to uphold the institution, I think.
04:31That's the important thing.
04:32And I just wonder if there's a bit of perhaps something happening in his life that's moving in there.
04:36I'm essentially with Catherine.
04:37I think Catherine, after her experience of a potentially life-limiting condition,
04:42like lots of people, that provokes questions which do take you perhaps closer to faith than you might otherwise go.
04:48So maybe that's a work in progress.
04:50Yes, I mean, she's spoken that having had her chemotherapy and her cancer diagnosis,
04:55she leant more heavily on her faith.
04:57She has actually said that herself, which I thought was very interesting.
05:00The other part of what was said was he's keen to build a strong and meaningful bond with the church
05:06and its leadership,
05:07one that respects tradition while speaking to a modern Britain
05:10and reflects the broader belief that institutions must continue to remain relevant
05:14and connected to the people they serve.
05:16And the source, I mean, I imagine it was either his comms secretary or his private secretary,
05:21said that the Prince of Wales wanted to draw a line in the sand.
05:25But if you wanted to draw a line in the sand, that's because you've allowed this situation to get to
05:31where it is.
05:31His lack of sort of clarification on his belief and his lack of, frankly, attending church, Richard.
05:39I mean, very occasionally he'll go to church about moral and he won't always be there on Easter Sunday at
05:44Windsor.
05:44And obviously he's there at Christmas.
05:46But that's a kind of, you know, PR exercise as much as anything else for all the royals to be
05:50pictured together.
05:51Happy families at Christmas.
05:53I don't want to be too critical, but some people say that he's allowed this narrative to kind of be
05:59created because of his lack of action.
06:02I also think if he is someone who wants to be in step with mainstream opinion,
06:05mainstream opinion of people of his kind of age, they're not churchgoers.
06:10It doesn't really mean anything to them.
06:11They would probably be either agnostic shading into atheists, I dare say.
06:15The other thing, of course, in the old days, people were prepped very thoroughly.
06:18There was plenty of clergy in the royal household available for counsel and available to instruct and so on.
06:24So there would have been lots of people talking to him about it at Eton, of course.
06:27There's a very active chapel at Eton.
06:30So I guess there were people around him having those sorts of conversations.
06:33How much of it landed, I don't know.
06:36And that's really interesting because he has been brought up in a Christian tradition.
06:39He has a very Christian and spiritual father.
06:42But in a way, I feel like Prince William is being true to himself because the thread that runs through
06:49him,
06:50we are seeing more and more.
06:52I will do things my way.
06:54I am not going to be pushed or shoved into doing anything that I don't think is authentic and true.
07:01And this is not another example.
07:03He is treading that line, but he's doing it in his way.
07:05You know one of the problems?
07:06From a very young age, they have to sit through long church services.
07:10Nobody likes to sit through long church services when they're seven, eight, nine years old.
07:15I was a chorister when I was a kid, so I was doing church all the time from the age
07:21of about eight.
07:22But at the age of nine, I started my chapel choir atheist club because I thought it was all nonsense.
07:27So would you characterize yourself as an atheist when you were younger?
07:30I was an absolute atheist until I stopped being an atheist.
07:33And how old were you when that happened?
07:36Late 20s.
07:37Oh, okay.
07:38My late 20s.
07:38It was life experience that did it for me.
07:40All of a sudden, it started to make sense for me.
07:42I'd always liked it.
07:43I liked being in church.
07:45I liked the music, I liked the people, I liked everything about it.
07:47But then all of a sudden, it sort of came into focus.
07:49So that can happen.
07:50The narrative from both Lambeth Palace, in terms of the Archbishop of Canterbury,
07:54and Kensington Palace, William and Catherine,
07:57the narrative is that they're building this relationship together.
07:59And so I wonder whether, you know, if they, hopefully they'll get on,
08:04and hopefully it'll be a personal relationship, it might help William's faith journey.
08:07We have something in common here, Sarah.
08:09We were born on exactly the same day.
08:11Were you?
08:11So we both celebrate our 64th birthday, the day after her enthronement.
08:15Happy birthday, Richard.
08:17It's Richard and Sarah's birthday week.
08:21She's advanced rather higher in the church's hierarchy than I ever did, and rightly so.
08:24But I think she would get Prince William.
08:26I think Prince William would get her.
08:27If you look at, you know, she was the chief nurse there in Mullally.
08:30She spent her whole life in public service in one way or another.
08:33And I think that's something that's important to Prince William too.
08:35So there's an area around which they can have a lot of constructive discussion, I think.
08:39I like Prince William.
08:40I like him more and more.
08:41I think he's thoughtful.
08:42I think he's his own mind.
08:43I think he brings, I think he's got a vision.
08:46I think there's something about him that is honest and has integrity.
08:49Because some people have criticised him for this briefing.
08:52Is that unfair?
08:53Well, you know, I think some people would like him to be, you know, and especially this
08:57rising kind of debate now about Christian nationalism is somehow being English, being British, waving
09:04the Union Jack means also holding a cross in your other hand.
09:07Yeah.
09:07I've got no time for that at all.
09:08But I don't think he would either.
09:09If William can say, I represent modern Christianity in modern Britain, other people, you or I
09:18or whomever might think, well, yeah, actually, that's what stands for me.
09:21And I'm Christian too.
09:22I don't have to shout about it.
09:24Yeah.
09:24I'd much rather have on the throne someone who was an honest doubter than someone who's
09:27holding a flaming cross, you know?
09:29Yeah.
09:30No Joan of Arc's here.
09:31Well, do you know, do you fancy a break?
09:33Oh, yes, I think I do.
09:36After the break, we'll be answering some of your questions.
09:39But Richard, we've got a question for you before we go for our tea.
09:44True or false, an MP is held hostage at Buckingham Palace when the monarch officially opens parliament.
09:51What do you think?
09:53Keep saving it.
09:54We'll see you soon.
09:59Welcome back to Catching Up With The Royals.
10:01And before I give you the answer to this question, don't forget to subscribe if you're watching
10:05us on YouTube, to email us at royals at spirit-studios.com, catch up with all of our funny outtakes,
10:13of which we're in a minute, on social media, and listen to us wherever you get your podcasts
10:17every week on a Thursday and watch us on five on a Saturday.
10:22Because actually what you didn't see was that I asked you a question before the break, which
10:26was, is it true or false that an MP is held hostage at Buckingham Palace during the annual
10:31ceremonial opening of parliament?
10:32And Richard actually answered it.
10:35So, Richard, would you like to tell me?
10:38Me, me.
10:39Because I just said to Richard in the break, he is so cerebral and such a polymath, of course
10:44he knew the answer.
10:45Well, thank you for the puff.
10:47Yes, it is true.
10:48And it comes, it's historic, isn't it, that if the king went to parliament, then in case
10:53he were kidnapped, or she, the queen, were kidnapped, they would have someone to exchange.
10:58So, someone has to, like a junior MP has to go and sit in Buckingham Palace to have a
11:02cup of tea.
11:02Do you think they have a chat with the footman?
11:05Maybe that's at query level, I'm not sure.
11:08I need to talk to you about equerries.
11:09How do you say it?
11:10Equery.
11:11Equery.
11:12Equery.
11:12Equery.
11:13I think.
11:13Yeah.
11:13I need to talk to you about that.
11:15Okay.
11:15But one day.
11:16One day.
11:17Another, that's, tune in guys, we'll do that on another episode.
11:19But I think that's right, isn't it?
11:21Yes, no, you're absolutely right.
11:23An MP is ceremonially held hostage in BP, while the sovereign attends parliament to ensure
11:27the king's safe return.
11:29Traditionally, it's the vice chamberlain of the household.
11:33Oh.
11:34Now, see, that's a good premise for a TV drama that's been done, hasn't it?
11:38It's the American version of that thing.
11:40Where Kiefer Sutherland has to stay home when everyone goes to the State of the Union and
11:44they blow up the Capitol.
11:45Oh, yes.
11:45Do you know that one?
11:47It's not 24.
11:48It's another version of the version.
11:50It's quite good.
11:51Well, let's ruin that one.
11:52Yeah.
11:52Another TV.
11:53I've got another question for you.
11:54Oh, yeah.
11:55Lovely Linda has emailed us asking, the government has...
12:00Designated survivor.
12:01Designated survivor, yes.
12:03Sorry, yeah, yeah, yeah.
12:03He is the designated survivor.
12:05He is the MP held hostage.
12:07Do you think they got that idea from that properly?
12:10I wouldn't be surprised.
12:11Yeah.
12:12I mean, TV drama.
12:13Amazing.
12:13Very creative.
12:14Right, Linda.
12:15Great question.
12:16Thank you so much.
12:17Very topical.
12:18Now, the UK government, Richard, you'll know this as well.
12:21The UK government has recently rebranded itself.
12:25Previously, if you Googled them or looked at any kind of branding or insignia, it was
12:31His Majesty's government, obviously Her Majesty's under the late Queen.
12:34But now it goes by UKGov.
12:37Why have the UK government dropped His Majesty altogether on what does this say about the
12:44royal family's influence and power?
12:46Well, that's interesting, isn't it?
12:48I quite like all that stuff in the past when it said, in those days, Her Britannic Majesty's
12:53Secretary of State requests from the requires in the name of...
12:56All that nonsense.
12:57I suppose it...
12:58In the gold, when the cards come, because sometimes Richard and I do get invited to the palace
13:02and there's that lovely stiff kind of A5 card, the crisp white and the gold lettering.
13:09The Lord Chamberlain is commanded by...
13:10The Lord Chamberlain commands the pleasure of Miss Emily Andrews or...
13:14I suppose maybe you feel a little bit of that kind of copperplate glory goes on to you.
13:19But I guess what it is, I think this is a technocratic thing, isn't it?
13:23It's rebranding government, so it all looks the same.
13:26It is.
13:26You're absolutely right.
13:27I think the reason the Cabinet Office has done that, and it's, I think, from the beginning
13:31of this year, actually, that they've done it.
13:34Apparently, Linda, the reason is because they want it to be a uniformity of branding so that
13:41you don't have the Department of Health or the Department of Education say this or that.
13:43It's the UK government say this or that.
13:45And officially, His Majesty's government is still being used as a branding as well.
13:51Do you think it could be interpreted, if you're being touchy about it, as a sort of disrespectful change?
13:58I don't know.
14:00I mean, they've obviously, traditionally, the government of event, you know, whether it's
14:05Conservative or Labour or Coalition, traditionally, I think that the government of the day has
14:10always been quite timorous, I would say, of the royals and anything the royals have to
14:15say.
14:16And there's that kind of golden triangle, which I think we might talk about a little bit
14:19later between Buckingham Palace, Number 10 and the Cabinet Office.
14:24I didn't think it was a lack of deference, because I think the two things can be used
14:28at the same time, His Majesty's government and UK government.
14:31And so it's still the kingdom, the king in the kingdom of the K, right?
14:35Exactly.
14:36The king in the kingdom of the United Kingdom.
14:38And I think it's to try and make government communication better, because, I mean, goodness,
14:43they could use a bit of help at the moment.
14:45But it's a bit of a, I mean, this is a, this is something which is a long story.
14:49I mean, we are subjects of the Crown, but actually, I think of myself as a British citizen.
14:53I would say, I don't say subject of His Majesty King Charles III, although technically, I
14:57guess I am.
14:58Yeah.
14:58And it's interesting that actually this story provoked quite a lot of reaction.
15:02People felt quite aggrieved about it, actually, when I think it was, it was genuinely, genuinely
15:10supposed just to be a stylistic thing.
15:12There you go.
15:13See, tread carefully, because you tread on my dreams.
15:16So Linda, Linda asked us why it had been done, but she also asked us, what does this say
15:20about the royal family's influence and power?
15:23And I think sometimes it can be misunderstood what power the monarch, as in the head of state,
15:33actually has.
15:34And I would, I would, I'm going to, I'm going to bat this over to you, Richard, with my,
15:37with my ash cricket bat.
15:40Oh, yeah.
15:41Ash.
15:42Nice.
15:42Not too hard.
15:44And sometimes get a six, more often get a four.
15:49Soft, I'm going to demarcate it in between soft and hard power.
15:53So in terms of hard power, in terms of the monarch's power, what kind of powers do they
15:59have?
15:59Well, it's a bit like nuclear deterrence.
16:01I mean, technically, they do have quite significant powers, but they would never use them.
16:05For example, the royal assent.
16:06Yeah.
16:06So before a bill becomes an act, it has to receive, so it becomes law, has to have the
16:11royal assent.
16:14But the monarch would only give that assent, would not, would never withhold that.
16:19I mean, technically, I suppose you could withhold that consent, but it would never happen, would
16:22you?
16:22We're a constitutional monarchy, and the monarch is there to sort of, just to kind of rub
16:27a stamp what the government has decided to do.
16:29That sounds a bit disrespectful, but you know what I mean?
16:31No, they're kind of, it's like a check and balance, isn't it?
16:33So that's why, officially, the monarch has to invite someone to become prime minister.
16:39The monarch officially has to appoint a cabinet, although, of course, the monarch, he or she
16:45does it on the, you know, advice of his or her prime minister.
16:49The monarch officially appoints the Privy Council, and the monarch officially does all these
16:55things, but as you say, it is a kind of rubber stamp.
16:59But I tell you what I thought was really interesting, that I only found out recently, that any law
17:07that pertains or could threaten the private interests of the monarch or his or her heir,
17:16the Prince of Wales, does go in front of the monarch and the Prince of Wales.
17:22And apparently, the late Queen vetted, we don't know whether she vetoed or whether she changed,
17:28but she looked at, she vetted thousands of laws during her reign, everything from race relations,
17:38farming subsidies, thousands of laws.
17:42And I would be fascinated to know whether a little kind of pencil mark from on a document
17:50in her red box ever changed the law or a minister's opinion or, because we don't know, do we?
17:57Because the weekly audience with the prime minister, of course.
18:00So you think the late Queen had lots of prime ministers and did lots of those.
18:04And when those prime ministers talk about it, they say how much they valued that conversation
18:07because she was very experienced, also because she wasn't a political appointee.
18:12Something in that is important.
18:13And you can see how that might, the Queen raising an eyebrow,
18:16or for example, using an innocuous phrase like, recollections may vary,
18:21can be quite telling, can't it?
18:23Yes.
18:24And there must be that real terror if you're a PM on one of those weekly audiences.
18:31If the King or Queen, let's take the late Queen, if she raised an eyebrow and you misinterpreted it,
18:37yeah, I mean, imagine.
18:39Maybe she just had a twinge.
18:40She just had a twinge or she was feeling a bit tired.
18:43Yeah, because I think it is a fact with a capital F, but you know,
18:47you get two female leaders together, Margaret, of course, I'm talking about Margaret Thatcher
18:51and the late Queen.
18:52And there was a lot at the time written about how the two women didn't get on.
18:57I'm not, I think it was probably more nuanced than that.
18:59And obviously, Lady T, Lady Thatcher was Prime Minister for 11 years, exactly.
19:07I was going to say more than 10 years, but yeah, 11 years.
19:09When she was a young Queen, she really lent on Winston Churchill as her first Prime Minister.
19:14But by the time Margaret Thatcher came along, the Queen was very comfortable in her role,
19:19as you say, as, you know, continuity, soft power.
19:23I would put that in the soft power kind of basket, if you like, of royal power and very useful.
19:30But I mean, apparently, the late Queen called Thatcher uncaring
19:35after she refused to impose strict sanctions on the apartheid regime in South Africa.
19:41Maybe, I don't know.
19:43Did she use her soft power to try and make sure that we, as an united kingdom,
19:48because of course South Africa was part of, or former part of the Commonwealth.
19:51Well, very hard to put a number on that, isn't it, influence?
19:53But I think one of the ways in which the royals are very powerful, and I wholly welcome it,
19:58is in turning out a crowd for a good cause.
20:01The amount of support that the royals give through patronage to charities in particular,
20:07I've been involved with a couple of charities, we've had royal patronage, royal support,
20:10and it was a game changer.
20:11It really was.
20:12Because lots of people wanted to come out and meet, in this case, it was the Princess Royal,
20:15or Princess Diana.
20:17And it just made them kind of look upon you favourably, and it was a good time to ask them
20:22if they would like to support what you do.
20:23So in that sense, I think that's really important.
20:25The King's Trust, Prince's Trust, and Rolls, I think that's a very significant form of power,
20:30and one that I think few would quibble with, maybe some.
20:33Because even when people say that they are a Republican or aren't interested in the royal family,
20:39often those same people will be remarkably well-informed as to what's been going on in royal life.
20:46It's like Strictly.
20:47People say, I don't watch it myself, and then you realise that they have watched it themselves
20:50because they know all the contestants.
20:51They know all the contestants, and they know all the scores, and who's in and who's out.
20:54Yeah.
20:55That's the thing about the soft power of the royals, isn't it?
20:59But can they, is it like that famous Heineken advert, can they reach the parts that other people,
21:07other families cannot reach?
21:09I think that's probably true, although again, it's hard to quantify these things, isn't it?
21:12Well, you can quantify it in terms of money raised, right?
21:15Yeah.
21:15And I think that's a really good point you make, in terms of if you have a royal,
21:20as I think, were you fundraising for a particular church?
21:23Well, yeah, it was Boston Stump in Lincolnshire where I was curate.
21:25We need a lot of money.
21:27It's a major medieval church in a part of the world where there's not a lot of money.
21:30But it was the patronage of the Princess Royal, actually, that really made the difference there.
21:34And she was great.
21:35She was going to come and do our launch, and then her helicopter broke down.
21:38We thought, oh, she's not going to come.
21:39But she got in a car and came anyway.
21:41And, you know, that makes a real difference, I think.
21:44Like the Queen, Queen Camilla, she has done a lot of work with the victims of sexual violence.
21:50I remember going to Royal Engagement in Boots, Boots in Piccadilly Circus.
21:55And the reason we were in Boots in Piccadilly Circus, I mean, people just kind of picking up their deodorant
22:00and nail polish were a little bit surprised to see Queen Camilla dropped off, win the Royal Bentley, outside on
22:08Piccadilly Circus and walk through.
22:10Literally shoppers would go, what is going on?
22:13We were all up on the first floor and she came up on the escalator.
22:15I mean, I think she quite enjoyed the incongruity of it as well, actually, because I don't think Queen Camilla
22:21often goes to Boots.
22:22This was when she was Duchess of Cornwall, but she was there to launch an initiative for wash bags and
22:28Boots were donating to wash bags for victims of domestic violence.
22:34And, you know, things like that.
22:35Would Boots have been donating those toiletries and doing all those wash bags, you know, if it weren't for her
22:42house, her staff getting that patronage?
22:46We talked before about the influence Princess Diana had when HIV-AIDS hit.
22:51Well, it was really a game-changing intervention on her part, I think.
22:55The other one, of course, is, and it's a really significant one, is where would we be were Donald Trump
23:01not a bit dazzled by royalty?
23:04So the King can invite Donald Trump over, Donald Trump comes.
23:08And obviously that's a way of making Donald Trump feel good about himself.
23:11And he tends to treat you more favourably when he's feeling good about himself.
23:15How important do you think the British monarchy is to this kind of much vaunted, soft power?
23:23I think very significant.
23:25I'm not sure it's as significant as it once was, but I think you would be mad not to use
23:30that to your national advantage, your political advantage.
23:33So that absolutely is political power, I think, although it's indirect.
23:36Because, of course, there are other royal families in Europe, even.
23:40Spain, Holland.
23:41We've got the shiniest one, though.
23:43But why?
23:44Why do you think ours is the shiniest?
23:45I don't know.
23:47I really don't know.
23:47Is it the bling and the tear of London?
23:49No, I'm joking.
23:50I know I'm being facetious.
23:51Partly because the British Empire was the most powerful the world had ever seen.
23:54So there was that huge imperial thing.
23:56And, of course, that's a very contested legacy.
23:58But that made it important and significant.
24:01We still crown our kings and queens.
24:04Nobody else does.
24:05The coronations are a thing of the past in other royal houses in Europe.
24:07I think we're the last royal house in Europe that actually puts a crown on a head.
24:12So there's something about that that is very kind of sparkly, isn't there?
24:16Maybe that's what dazzles people.
24:18Doesn't it go to the heart of what people want from their royalty?
24:23Because we do talk about this often, but it's a point, I think, worth repeating, that we want them to
24:30be like us, but we don't want them to be too like us.
24:33The impossible ask.
24:34It is the impossible ask.
24:35We want them to be paragons of virtue.
24:36We want them to look amazing.
24:38But also we want them to be human.
24:40So when Princess Anne gets given a corgi as a gift, we all think it's hilarious.
24:44Or, as we were saying, when Princess Anne gets fined because her dogs are a bit naughty, we kind of
24:50love that because she's just like us.
24:51A bit children.
24:53Well, we're going to have a little break.
24:55But before we do, please let me remind you that if you want to catch up with us, Catching Up
24:59with the Royals, you can do that every Thursday on YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts from.
25:03And you'll find us on five on Saturday in all our glory.
25:06And here's a question for you to mull over.
25:08Prince Harry and Meghan broke with tradition when they named their firstborn child Archie Harrison Mountbatten-Windsor.
25:15But what tradition did they break?
25:22Welcome back to Catching Up with the Royals.
25:25We left you with a question.
25:26It was, what was the royal tradition broken by Harry and Meghan when they named their son Archie Mountbatten-Windsor?
25:33Oh, I remember that time.
25:35Do you know the answer?
25:35No, I don't.
25:37Well, Archie.
25:38That was it.
25:38It was like a shortened version.
25:40It was like a matey name.
25:41Like normally the royals are given very solid names that you wouldn't, like George, Charles, Andrew, William, whatever, you know,
25:49and that you don't.
25:49Henry.
25:50Henry.
25:51That have deep roots in royal history.
25:53We haven't got an Archie.
25:54He's the first Archie.
25:55No, he wasn't Archibald.
25:57I think it would have been different had they given him the name Archibald.
26:00I wish they had in a way.
26:01Yeah, that would have been cool.
26:02Also, I slightly cringe at even saying this out loud, Richard.
26:07But do you know why they called him Harrison?
26:11It can't be after Harrison Ford.
26:13No, it's worse.
26:14What is it?
26:16Harry's son.
26:17No.
26:18Yes.
26:19Harry's son.
26:21Like, what does that mean?
26:22I suppose it made sense at the time.
26:23Maybe she was on Gas and Air.
26:25I don't know.
26:26Oh, my goodness.
26:27It still brings me out in hives.
26:30It's a thing, isn't it?
26:31The birth of Archie.
26:32But that's really interesting because names, traditional names, or nowadays everyone, you know, you can have.
26:38When I was a school governor, the names of the kids in our class just got kind of more and
26:43more bespoke over the years.
26:45That's a nice way of putting it.
26:46Yeah.
26:47Because I think people think, well, we can have it that way.
26:49We can do it that way.
26:50Consumer choice.
26:51Consumer choice.
26:52But talking about Archie, and I should call them Prince Archie and Princess Lilibet.
26:58Are they Prince and Princess?
27:00They are.
27:01Oh, yes.
27:01There was a hoo-ha, wasn't there?
27:03There was a whole confuffle, which we can talk about in a moment.
27:06Well, Alison has sent us a great question.
27:08And if you do want to email us, please do at royals at spirit-studios.com.
27:14Or leave us a little message below the line when you subscribe to Catching Up With The Royals on YouTube.
27:21Alison sent us a great question, which I'll say in one minute.
27:22But, yeah, there's a bit of a hoo-ha with Archie and Lilibet.
27:26Because they are now Prince Archie and Princess Lilibet.
27:28And they weren't when they were born, because it is only the children or the grandchildren of the direct line,
27:40which obviously, as Harry is the son of the monarch, his children can now be Prince or Princess.
27:46So they got upgrades?
27:47They got upgrades.
27:48But what's so interesting is that when Archie, I remember very clearly when Archie was born,
27:56and it was a parlous time to be a royal reporter, Richard, they didn't want to tell us what he
28:02was called.
28:03But when they eventually did, via the communications secretary,
28:07they made it very, very clear that he was going to be Mountbatten-Windsor.
28:09He wasn't going to have a title.
28:11They were going to sort of go down the Princess Anne route of not giving,
28:15she didn't give Zahra and Peter titles.
28:17That was going to be what Harry and Meghan were going to do.
28:20And then, of course, it changed.
28:22And they went to America.
28:23And then Charles became king.
28:24And they made it very clear that they wanted Archie and Lilibet to be Prince and Princess.
28:29And, of course, that doesn't really fit with either King Charles's or, indeed, Prince William's view of a slimmed-down
28:37royal family.
28:39Also, at that point where they became formally detached from the institution,
28:44maybe there was a sort of reaction when you think, well, we want to keep it at least in having
28:49these titles for our kids.
28:51Well, indeed.
28:51So, Alison asks,
28:53do you think that over time Archie and Lilibet will resent the lost years of their early Windsor family life?
29:02Yeah, I can already see Davina looking in their face or Nicky Campbell going,
29:05and when did you realise that you were really the grandson and granddaughter of a monarch?
29:10I don't know.
29:11I think people get very curious about their origins as they get older.
29:15And I think if you've been somehow estranged or kind of out of the orbit of your grandparents or your
29:22uncle,
29:23that might be difficult.
29:25You don't agree?
29:25I don't think they will resent the lost years because I think, and so I'm told,
29:33that Harry is still very angry and upset about his time in the institution.
29:44And he felt institutionalised and he felt that everything had to be done for the institution
29:52and there were many personal sacrifices that he personally had to make.
29:55We know that Meghan was unhappy being a member of the royal family.
29:59So, like, I honestly, Richard, I really like Harry.
30:02I still like Harry.
30:03I know probably listeners and viewers might think I'm slightly crazy.
30:06He's a guy with a really good heart, but I think he won't be able to help himself.
30:12When he talks about, he will have to talk to his children, right?
30:16About why they've got security, why they've got protection, all this kind of different stuff.
30:19But what does, what aspect of that does he choose to tell his children?
30:24I don't think it will be undilutingly positive, so I don't think that they will feel they've missed out.
30:29And I think Harry thinks carefully about the welfare of his children and Meghan too.
30:33But I can see how you might want to have that in an ideal world.
30:36But if you can't divorce the people from the institution,
30:38and the institution you think is a toxic institution,
30:41I can understand why you'd want to keep away from it.
30:43Yeah, and, you know, William and Catherine haven't met Lily.
30:47I think they've met Archie only once or twice.
30:50I do find that very sad.
30:51And that will mean, that also means that Archie and Lily have no relationship with their cousins,
30:58George, Charlotte and Louis.
30:59And of course, George, Charlotte and Louis have got a number of Middleton cousins.
31:03Pippa has got three children.
31:05And James has got one son.
31:09So they're very close to their Middleton cousins, George, Charlotte and Louis.
31:13But they've never even met their Sussex ones.
31:15I'm all for cousin power.
31:17I love my cousins.
31:18Yeah, me too.
31:19I love my cousins.
31:21And one of whom is like my second sister.
31:24And I think it's a really important family dynamic.
31:28So I suppose that's what Alison is asking.
31:32She's maybe not asking so much about the prince and princess bit.
31:35I think maybe they just might be quite curious and be like, whoa, this is weird.
31:38But it's the familial aspect, not knowing their grandpa.
31:43Because, of course, Charles has only met Lily once and she won't remember because she was a baby.
31:47In fact, Archie won't remember.
31:50I doubt.
31:51He's only six.
31:52He'll be seven this year.
31:53I doubt that he will remember his grandpa.
31:55It's kind of odd, isn't it?
31:57Don't you think?
31:58I think it's really, I think it's very sad.
32:01I think that people probably watching or listening might not understand or might not be able to understand why King
32:09Charles hasn't seen his grandchildren.
32:10And I completely understand that point of view.
32:12Because that's one of the things that people often ask me the most.
32:15Like, why is Charles not, why is not the king just flown out to America to see his grandchildren?
32:19Like, Harry feels that he can't bring his wife and children here because of the whole security issue.
32:24Because he doesn't have metropolitan police, taxpayer funded security whilst he's here.
32:29He's still trying to get that, even though the court cases are over on that respect.
32:34The UK courts have said that he can't have it.
32:36He's trying other means.
32:37Soft power.
32:38But the reason the king can't is because, or won't, is because the king's diary is really, really, really busy.
32:47And he can't just pop over on a family holiday to Montecito.
32:50It's another repeat of a familiar thing, isn't it?
32:54It's just really tricky to get, if your family becomes an institution or a dynasty, it's very tricky to get
33:01those relationships as you would ideally have them.
33:04Because other considerations, right?
33:05There is kind of constitutional questions and all that.
33:09Well, I'm sure you all know much better than me from your work as a vicar.
33:13But inter-family dynamics and relationships are probably the number one sort of most difficult thing for most people, right?
33:20It can be the best thing.
33:21It can be the worst thing.
33:23Well, just before we go to the break, I have got another excellent question for you.
33:28Not researched by me, researched by the lovely Laura and Eleanor.
33:31Thanks, ladies.
33:32And the question is, how many members of staff are employed to work within Buckingham Palace?
33:39Do you know, Richard?
33:40Don't tell me.
33:41Not like last time.
33:42Keep shtum.
33:43We'll be back after this.
33:48Welcome back to Catching Up With The Royals.
33:51And don't forget, you can always catch up with us every Thursday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.
33:56Don't forget to subscribe.
33:57You can catch up with the Royals on Saturday on 5 and you can always catch up with some behind
34:03-the-scenes gossip with Richard and I wherever you get your Catching Up With The Royals social media.
34:08But back to the question that we posed before the break, Richard.
34:13Yeah.
34:13How many people do you reckon work in Buckingham Palace or BP?
34:17Well, it's not just a place where people live.
34:18It's HQ as well as it's office.
34:21I don't know.
34:23500, 253?
34:26You're casting the net quite wide, aren't you?
34:28I've no idea.
34:29Well, you're actually, yeah, it's quite a good guess with your 250, 300, 500.
34:34Over 700 people work.
34:36That's more than work on I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here.
34:38I know.
34:39No, it's less than work on I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here.
34:41Oh, less?
34:41Yeah, 750.
34:42You're joking.
34:43No, I'm not joking.
34:43750 people work on I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here.
34:45Yes, but that's another podcast.
34:47Over 700 people work within BP.
34:49Unusual roles include the Royal Horological Conservator.
34:54The Clock Geyser.
34:54The Clock Keeper, the Keeper of the Clocks.
34:56And you'll like this one, Master of the King's Music for composing music for state events.
35:02Yeah.
35:02Are they ever going to sing Karloff's Karloff's Karloff?
35:07I doubt it somehow.
35:09Now, but there are people who sort of have office holders, right?
35:14But these are people who actually work at BP.
35:16So you've got all the courtiers, yeah?
35:19You've got domestic people who look after them rather than a footman or that kind of thing.
35:23You say foot women.
35:24I suppose you do.
35:25You've got...
35:26No, I think you're probably going to say footmen, actually.
35:27Equerries.
35:28Equerries.
35:29Equerries.
35:29What's a lady equery called?
35:31An equery.
35:32An equerelle.
35:32No, an equerelle.
35:33Actually, that's French for squirrel, isn't it?
35:35It's not quite the right thing.
35:37An equerelle.
35:39There is a division within...
35:41There's household, there's staff, and then there's servants.
35:44Right.
35:44And so servants are kind of people who lay the fires and, well, now, of course, they'd be like, you
35:51know, chambermaids or they'd be making the beds or they'd be housekeepers or whatever.
35:56And then there's staff...
35:57Sorting out the teddies.
35:58Sorting out the teddies, yes.
35:59And then there are the courtiers, who are people like the keeper of the proof of purse, basically, the CFO,
36:10the chief financial officer.
36:11Is a comms person a courtier?
36:14Or is a courtier more a formal role within...
36:16Has he got to be called something like, I don't know, the groom of the back...
36:20Stool.
36:20Something, I don't know.
36:22A courtier, I would definitely say, are people like the private secretaries.
36:26So the private secretaries are the right-hand man or woman of the principal.
36:30The principal is the member of the royal family.
36:32The private secretary is the right-hand man or woman.
36:36There's obviously assistant.
36:38There's deputy private secretaries or assistant private secretaries.
36:40The assistant private secretaries, in a way, take the role, certainly with the Princess of Wales, Catherine, they take the
36:48role as ladies-in-waiting.
36:52So that role...
36:53And actually, it's interesting, the current queen, Queen Camilla, the late queen had ladies-in-waiting, but the current queen,
36:58she has companions of honour.
37:00Oh, right.
37:01But now, I expect when Catherine becomes queen, her ladies-in-waiting, their titles will be assistant private secretaries.
37:08And then there's the communications secretary.
37:10And the communications secretary, under him or her, has a huge communications team, which, of course, now isn't just talking
37:19to journalists, but it's putting out their own content on social media, digitally, videos, all that kind of thing.
37:25I see how you get up to 700.
37:26Yeah.
37:27But what about the cops?
37:30What about the security people?
37:32Does that count?
37:32I suppose they work at Buckingham Palace, don't they?
37:34They do, although it actually just reminded me of William, Prince William has said that he wants to cut the
37:44number of staff at Buckingham Palace.
37:46And I went out for lunch with someone recently who works at BP, who rather sniffly said to me, well,
37:53I mean, you know, the Prince of Wales thinks he's going to cut all these people when he becomes king.
37:58I mean, how on earth does he think the monarchy will function without us all?
38:02I mean, there's the clue in the quote.
38:05But I think that there are a lot of jobs.
38:08There are a lot of people, which, of course, are funded by us, the taxpayer, Richard.
38:12But it is helping to keep the monarchy going.
38:17But as you say, the police are a very important part of that.
38:20And they are actually funded by, still the taxpayer, but organised by the Metropolitan Police, which is the police service
38:29for London and the greater London area.
38:32So it's a, they're kind of on secondment, as it were, from the Metropolitan Police to service.
38:37So Royalty Protection used to be known by its call sign of SO14.
38:42But I think back in 2015, it was reorganised into the Royalty and Specialist Protection Division, which is RASP, which
38:52is managed by the Protection Command and Metropolitan Police.
38:55And they are responsible for looking after members of the Royal Family and also politicians, such as the Prime Minister
39:04or the Foreign Secretary or the Home Secretary.
39:06And there are, as we know, because of Prince Harry's court case, there are certain people who are deemed to
39:14get an equal level of protection.
39:17I think Salman Rushdie springs to mind or anyone else who kind of falls into that category as a British
39:23citizen who has had death, not just death threats.
39:31I mean, there is actual, it's deemed credible threats to life.
39:36Well, of course, you know, the PPOs, the police protection officers, have very close relationships with those, the principles that
39:43they're guarding.
39:43And they've been in the press recently because, of course, over the Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor story,
39:49they have been asked, PPOs and former PPOs, to have a think about what they saw and what they knew
39:56when they were looking after him.
39:57And if there is anything, to come forward and give statements.
40:00Have a think.
40:01I mean, my feeling is that discretion would be the first requirement.
40:07And then all of a sudden that shifted a little bit.
40:09Now we want, there must be, I mean, they must see everything, right?
40:13They do.
40:14The good, the bad, the ugly.
40:15They do.
40:15Because they can't leave the side of the Royal.
40:19They even have to go to the loo with them.
40:21And so that's often why you might have a female PPO with a female principal.
40:26So they can go to the ladies.
40:27Yep, they can go to the ladies and equally a male PPO with a male Royal.
40:32So they can literally shadow them everywhere.
40:34And this doesn't just happen when they're out and about, Richard.
40:37It's in private as well.
40:38The PPOs don't live with the Royals per se, but they have to be on site.
40:44For instance, when William and Catherine go to stay with Carol and Mike Middleton,
40:49there is somewhere for the police to stay on site.
40:52Not in the main house, but there'll be rooms for them.
40:54They have to be accommodated wherever they go.
40:55When the king goes and visits his friends, his PPOs have to be accommodated.
41:01When you see a Royal convoy, most recently I was at Westminster Abbey for Catherine's carol service at the end
41:11of last year.
41:12And the convoy is at least three cars.
41:14She's in the middle convoy and there'll be two other cars of police.
41:19That's a public engagement.
41:21But privately, they have to take, you know, when they take Louis to a soft play, someone has to go
41:27with them.
41:28In fact, I remember talking to one of the PPOs when we were in Pakistan, when we got, have I
41:32told you about our plane getting caught hit by lightning?
41:34Anyway, I love a story for another time.
41:36But we were sat in an airport in Pakistan, like for like four hours.
41:40And I was chatting to one of the PPOs who had to go to school with Prince George every day.
41:44And they had a special classroom assigned to them, the coppers.
41:47And it must be so difficult for the kids and for the parents to have to explain to their children
41:59why they have to have these police officers with them.
42:03I mean, I know that Harry's really concerned for the safety of his family, but I would always say that
42:08it's actually better to not have police officers with you, if at all possible.
42:14I talked to an ex-PPO a while ago who used to look after the queen, the late queen.
42:19And he said, he highly liked him and had greatest respect for him.
42:23He said, he wouldn't want the life.
42:25And I said, why?
42:25And he said, because they are never on their own.
42:27No.
42:28Never on their own.
42:29And when you think about that, it'd be like having a sort of jailer chasing you around every day.
42:34I'd hate that.
42:35Yeah.
42:35I'll tell you one thing you don't want to give the king.
42:39What's that?
42:40Garlic.
42:41Oh, no.
42:41But do you know why?
42:42Why?
42:43Who doesn't like garlic?
42:45Everybody.
42:45Vampires.
42:46Oh.
42:47Do you know about this?
42:48No.
42:49The king is descended from Count Dracula.
42:54I love that.
42:55Vlad the Impaler.
42:56Strictly speaking, yes.
42:58Tell me why and how.
42:59Well, this isn't for me.
43:00This is from Anne, who's asked this question, which is, is it true that King Charles is descended from Vlad
43:05the Impaler?
43:07And the answer is yes.
43:08It's a tiny bit true.
43:09Yes.
43:09Yes, and he apparently jokes about it, as in the king jokes about it.
43:13And that's the reason why he bought his farmhouse in Transylvania.
43:17That he has a connection.
43:18That he has a connection.
43:19It must, very remotely.
43:21And it comes through his grandmother, Mary of Tech, Queen Mary.
43:26And she, it's just all the complicated relationships between the royal houses of Europe before the First World War.
43:33And Charles is a great, great, great, great, great, great grandson.
43:37He's 265 times removed.
43:38So I'm probably more closer to Vlad the Impaler than he is.
43:41But no, he is technically, he shares a little genetic material with Vlad the Impaler.
43:47I love that.
43:48A great, great, great, great, great 16 time removed grandson of Vlad the Impaler.
43:53Maybe it explains his pallor.
43:54Do you think so?
43:55Maybe.
43:55I've never seen him cast a shadow.
43:56Richard, we are, our viewers and listeners are never alone.
44:01Because of course, they can always catch up with Catching Up With The Royals on Thursdays,
44:07on YouTube and on wherever you get your podcasts.
44:10On Saturdays, on 5 and wherever you get your social media.
44:15And I think I'm afraid that's all we've got time for on Catching Up With The Royals.
44:19The show that never complains, but always explains.
44:23And don't forget, if you do have any questions, burning questions that you want, Richard or I,
44:26to answer, please do email in at royals at spirithighfistudios.com.
44:32See you next week.
44:33Bye.
44:57Bye.
44:57Bye.
44:57Bye.
44:57You
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