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00:07You programmed some movies to the festival. We're going to touch on why you picked those movies.
00:12You picked five of them. I'm going to ask you, I hope I'm not putting you on the spot.
00:16Can you tell people what they are?
00:18Sure. They are All the President's Men, The Insider, Malcolm X, Network, and Rashomon.
00:25Is there a theme that runs through those movies for you as to why you picked them?
00:28There is. I think the theme is truth and the pursuit of it.
00:33And I think for me, really when I started thinking about the movies I wanted to pick,
00:38it's interesting how what leapt to my mind was thinking about the state of journalism.
00:43And sort of then I started thinking about all these movies that have meant things to me
00:47and that have really sort of portrayed and sort of really promoted the idea of good journalism.
00:53So that's where, like, All the President's Men leapt to mind.
00:56If you're going to do it, do it right. You're my nose.
00:59If you're going to hype it, hype it with the facts.
01:01I don't mind what you did. I mind the way you did.
01:04Right. That comes first.
01:05Yeah.
01:06And, you know, but All the President's Men and Network and The Insider were really, like, to me,
01:10a triptych that, like, movies that I've gone back to over and over again,
01:15and they were obvious.
01:16And then I think when I thought of, well, what are other movies rather than,
01:20oh, yeah, I could go and say, I want to pick Spotlight, but that movie was made 15 years ago.
01:24But I was like, no, this is really about truth.
01:27And so when I thought about it, then that's where Rashomon came from,
01:30which was more of a primer on the nature of truth.
01:33Is it possible to tell it? Who's telling it?
01:35Can you ever understand what possibly is it based on?
01:38And then Malcolm X just came from the standpoint of, A, I love Spike.
01:43B, here was an American icon who was telling a truth about our country
01:47that wasn't necessarily being trafficked in and or heard by others at the time and since.
01:54And he's a truth teller that I feel like is a voice that still needs to be heard.
01:59Yeah, I don't have the exact quote from The New York Times after Malcolm X's murder,
02:05but in The Times obituary of Malcolm, they talked about all his magical gifts,
02:13but that he unfortunately used them for evil, right?
02:16That part, the end of that sentence, I know I have right.
02:20I didn't know that.
02:22Yeah, it gives you a sense of the, again, sense of the times.
02:25I mean, I was reminded of that also with the way people who we now associate
02:29with sort of being on the just side of justice, their vehemence and anger about Tommy Smith
02:38and John Carlos at the 1968 Olympics.
02:41Like, how could, you know, Howard Cosell, Brent Musburger, these people who were very much against it,
02:45and then at least later had the courage to say, I was mistaken in that belief.
02:50Well, I mean, look, I mean, we are, I mean, again, in terms of what informed my selections,
02:54like, we're in a crazy, we're living in a crazy world and a crazy universe right now
03:00and parsing what is true, what is not.
03:02I know we're not sitting here to have a political conversation,
03:05but, you know, I feel like we, you know, the people in power in this country
03:09are invested in being deceitful and not telling the truth.
03:12And so the idea of how to absorb it, understanding what's true or not,
03:16and then the sort of courage, you mentioned, you know, Tommy Smith and John Carlos,
03:22who amongst us have the power and the courage to stand up and tell it,
03:26you know, despite what is clearly the consequences that might come with it.
03:30That reminds me, I didn't expect to talk about this, that reminds me, of course, about O.J. Simpson, too,
03:36who was so eager to separate himself from any of that,
03:40even though he was obviously a very talented sprinter
03:43and I guess competing in the Olympics could have been a possibility if he'd focused on that.
03:48But he was very eager to avoid that and not be in that situation
03:53where he would have to take a stand politically.
03:56Well, I mean, you know, it's funny, when you bring up O.J., I think,
03:58and not that I've thought about it in these terms, but in some ways,
04:01like, the truth's going to catch up to you.
04:04All the President's Men, The Insider, what's the other journalism movie?
04:09Network. Well, Network, if it's, you know.
04:11Okay, so Network's not, Network is not based on a true story,
04:16but The Insider certainly is, and all the President's Men are,
04:19and Network certainly could have been.
04:21But what is then O.J. Simpson, Made in America,
04:24the story of the murder, of the trials,
04:29and of America's reaction to it,
04:33and looking back historically at why America had that reaction to it.
04:37So what is your responsibility to the truth as a documentarian
04:42that maybe is separate from Alan Pakula's responsibility
04:48to tell the story of all the President's Men,
04:51which is, again, sort of an important true story?
04:54Well, it's interesting.
04:55I mean, I think that, like, my responsibility would be
04:58slightly different from Alan Pakula's,
05:01and be slightly different, but more in line with Woodward and Bernstein.
05:04Carl Bernstein said,
05:06I think all good reporting is the same thing,
05:08the best attainable version of the truth.
05:09Right.
05:10Something I subscribe to.
05:12There's many ways to be a documentarian.
05:13You can tell stories in all different types of ways,
05:16and I'm someone that sort of comes from a journalism background.
05:19I like interviewing people.
05:20I like advancing the story of whatever the subject matter
05:24that I've chosen, even if it's an event that took place in the past.
05:27So that means that I'm trying to do interviews with people
05:30and trying to uncover actual facts or truth
05:33as well as perspectives that didn't exist before.
05:36And I think that quote, I sort of live in service of that.
05:40There's no way for me to say this is the absolute truth,
05:43but my job as a documentarian is to coalesce all the perspectives that exist,
05:49that maybe, by the way, exist further, 20 years hence,
05:51or 30 years hence, or 40 years hence,
05:53and put them together in a way that shines new light on that topic.
05:58I think with OJ, the goal was to take something
06:01that everyone really focused on for that two-year period
06:05from a murder through a trial, and we were really myopic,
06:07and like, what's it about in this person?
06:09And when I looked at that story,
06:10and I looked at the person at the center of it,
06:12I'm like, well, this is a story that didn't start there.
06:14If you don't understand the journey of him personally,
06:18who he was, where he came from,
06:20if you didn't understand the journey of, you know,
06:23African Americans in terms of migrating to California,
06:25what happened sort of with people in Los Angeles,
06:30their relationship with the police,
06:31all of which led into this stuff with the trial,
06:35combined with what happened with him afterwards,
06:38which sort of led to a further sort of Shakespearean quality of his life,
06:42and sort of the karmic aspect of what happened with him,
06:46that was the perspective that I realized if you put them together,
06:50that hadn't existed.
06:51Yeah, so you definitely consider yourself a journalist,
06:53and you should.
06:54I'm not questioning it.
06:55I just know that I've been more than one documentarian I've talked to.
06:59I did a series of interviews for the International Documentary Association
07:03for the IDA, like sort of, you know, career arc interviews,
07:08two-hour interviews in front of an audience in L.A.,
07:10and one of them was Werner Herzog,
07:11and I just remember him saying, no, I am not a journalist.
07:14Like, he will make a point that he's not a journalist.
07:17It doesn't, he believes he's a truth teller,
07:19but he would not describe himself as a journalist.
07:21I think journalism, you know, being a journalist,
07:24being a documentarian, being a filmmaker,
07:26you know, they're all sort of versions of something,
07:29we're all storytellers.
07:30The journalist has, you know, 100% hewn to the truth.
07:34There's many ways to be a documentarian.
07:36Werner Herzog, you know, he voices his own docs, mostly.
07:39He goes out in the world and sort of takes on whatever sort of natural sort of phenomenon that exists.
07:45He takes, he's not a, like, I understand that,
07:48and I don't hold, I don't think documentarians should be held to the standard of being journalists.
07:52No, right, I got you.
07:53I do think, though, if you purposely obfuscate,
07:56if you are sort of offering a portrait that you know is untruthful,
08:01then I have an issue with that.
08:02Sure, that's a different issue.
08:04You can be not a journalist and a documentarian and still not obfuscate,
08:09not tell the, so that's, yeah, that's an interesting idea.
08:12So then in, like, a movie like Malcolm X, right,
08:15where you take this part of Malcolm's life,
08:19explore it deeply, get as good an actor as we have in the United States to play Malcolm.
08:24There's, you know, one speech that I remember most from that movie
08:28is, yeah, is the, in the middle of it, you know,
08:32every time you break the seal on that liquor bottle,
08:35it's a government seal you're breaking.
08:38Oh, I say it and I say it again.
08:40You've been had, you've been took, you've been hoodwinked, bamboozled,
08:43led astray, run amok.
08:45That, this is what he does.
08:48So, you know, he, that speech directly never happened, right?
08:53It appears, you know, that was my investigation,
08:56and it turned out others were into it too.
08:58But there's no question that that movie gave you a sense of truth
09:04about who Malcolm X was.
09:06Again, there are facts, and then there's truth.
09:10And I do think, and then there's the essence of truth.
09:12And I think that if you are offering,
09:14and I think in feature films specifically,
09:16if you are offering a portrait of a character
09:18or a portrait of a story that is truthful,
09:20and certain things are used to game the truth in that way,
09:24or help get, like, whatever, I'm fine with that.
09:27I don't, you can't do that in a documentary.
09:30Right.
09:30But you can do that in the feature.
09:31And yes, I think you could parse this further.
09:33If that movie is based on Alex Haley's book,
09:35The Autobiography of Malcolm X,
09:37like, if we want to have a conversation about Alex Haley
09:40and the nature of truth and who he was based on roots,
09:43like, we go in this whole,
09:45so I think what you said is correct.
09:47It's the imprimatur, it's the intent,
09:50it's sort of like Malcolm X as a film
09:52is a truthful representation of this person.
09:56Having said that, it is not Manning Maribel's book.
09:59Right.
10:00So it is not the complete truth,
10:01it is not an investigative look at this person,
10:04it is a representation of an icon
10:07through the lens of another author.
10:10The...
10:10For a mass audience.
10:12This tube is the gospel,
10:14the ultimate revelation.
10:17Then a movie is totally made up, Network,
10:19and this one's too long for me to read all of,
10:21but there is perhaps in this movie
10:23that is a Matty J. Efsky screenplay,
10:26Ned Beatty's four-minute speech
10:29is arguably the...
10:33Those are arguably the truest words
10:35ever spoken in a feature film, to me.
10:37You don't want to read all four minutes of that?
10:39I didn't...
10:40I just...
10:40But I mean, I tell you what,
10:42right?
10:43You have meddled with the primal forces of nature,
10:46Mr. Beale, and I won't have it.
10:47It is ebb and flow,
10:49tidal gravity,
10:51it is ecological balance.
10:54You are an old man
10:56who thinks in terms of nations and peoples.
11:00There are no nations,
11:01there are no peoples,
11:03there are no Russians,
11:04there are no Arabs,
11:05there are no third worlds,
11:06there is no West.
11:08There is only one holistic system of systems.
11:12It's like when you watch that movie,
11:15it was made 50 years ago,
11:17came out 49 years ago,
11:20it's like we're just watching
11:22a movie about today.
11:24And yet there aren't movies
11:27that exist like this today,
11:28which is why this movie is chosen.
11:30You're saying there aren't movies like this?
11:32No, and whether it's like, again,
11:34from what he just said,
11:35because of what he just said,
11:37what are the market forces
11:38that prevent these type of movies
11:39from being made?
11:40Right, what is the holistic system of systems
11:42that those kind of movies buck up against?
11:45Yeah.
11:46And that's frustrating.
11:47Yeah, that's a downer.
11:48And so what I was going to say,
11:49you just said that this is the one,
11:52this is a movie unlike The Insider
11:53and All the President's Men.
11:55That is made up.
11:56But it's the truest movie
11:58of any of these five movies.
11:59That's right.
12:00The essence of what our priorities are
12:03is contained in that movie.
12:05It's contained in that movie,
12:05that's right.
12:07Then why Rashomon?
12:08Then what is,
12:09so Rashomon seems to like,
12:10it's your balance of saying,
12:12I'm going to spend a lot of time here
12:13talking about the truth
12:14and how important it is.
12:15But.
12:16But in the sense that like,
12:17what is this movie?
12:19You know, again, famously,
12:20I think a lot of people have enacted,
12:22exacted their own version
12:23of Rashomon in their work
12:25for the last 75 years.
12:27But like, this is the OG.
12:29This is a movie told from the perspective,
12:32one event, four different people.
12:34What the fuck happened?
12:35Right.
12:35And like, this is the,
12:37this speaks to the very nature
12:38of the truth.
12:40Is it possible to ever understand
12:42what happened
12:42for what I do for a living, right?
12:44I'm going and interviewing people
12:45when I interview people
12:47that like,
12:47oh, I'm talking to you
12:48about something
12:49that only you would know.
12:51You're the,
12:52you're the source.
12:53How am I supposed to know
12:55if what you're telling me
12:57is the God's honest truth?
12:58I have my own lie detector meter,
13:00but in the end,
13:01I'm allowed to put your words
13:03in my film,
13:04but someone else,
13:06if it happens to be,
13:07you share this recollection
13:08with someone else,
13:09they're going to have
13:09a different perspective.
13:10Having said that,
13:11this is a movie
13:12that really speaks to
13:13the unreliable nature of truth.
13:16Yeah.
13:17And really about our own
13:18self-deceptions
13:19and then the biases
13:21that we all have
13:22when it comes to
13:23what we talk about
13:24as far as our lives go.
13:26The, uh,
13:27and calls into question
13:28the very, the very,
13:31the, the, the aspect of truth
13:33that we find most reliable,
13:35like the eyewitness testimony.
13:37That's the end all be all.
13:38That's correct.
13:39Right?
13:39And it turns out,
13:40as we've learned,
13:42no, it's not.
13:43This, which is crazy.
13:45And we didn't need Rashomon
13:46to, and Rashomon
13:47is a great, you know,
13:48uh, uh, artistic example of it,
13:50but it doesn't,
13:51but we see it all the time.
13:52A great story I read years ago,
13:54uh, from, uh, uh,
13:57Dahlia Lithwick
13:57who covered justice
13:59in trial courts
14:00for, for a slate
14:01about a woman
14:02who had been sexually assaulted
14:04and I identified
14:05the assailant at trial.
14:08And years later,
14:10seven or eight years later,
14:11DNA came back,
14:12not him.
14:13It turned out another person
14:14who'd done this crime before.
14:17And she had made
14:19the identification in court.
14:20That's the man.
14:21And she continued
14:23to dream
14:24about the person
14:26who didn't do it.
14:27Like, like we just,
14:29you know,
14:29and she was positive
14:30she was right.
14:30She feels awful, of course,
14:31but she was positive
14:32that she was right.
14:33Uh, like even,
14:34even the thing we think
14:35is most reliable.
14:37Which gets back
14:37to the importance
14:38of journalism.
14:39Right.
14:40And that, you know,
14:41not that there aren't,
14:42I would say,
14:43thousands of great journalists,
14:45you know, in the world,
14:46but there is an effort
14:47to stifle good journalism.
14:49There's an economic imperative,
14:50getting back to the network idea,
14:52of, you know,
14:53are we investing
14:54in long-form journalism
14:55the way that we once did?
14:57Because that's what
14:59that work is.
15:00It is actually going deep
15:01to get the necessary
15:03proper perspectives
15:04and doing the reporting
15:05to give the best version
15:07of the truth,
15:08well, as the,
15:09or as Carl Bernstein said,
15:11the most attainable version
15:12of the truth.
15:13And that is what those
15:14in that profession can do
15:16that goes beyond
15:17the eyewitness testimony
15:18of one person.
15:20Yeah, and even though,
15:21we'll wrap this up now,
15:22but even though, as you say,
15:23there are thousands
15:24of really dedicated journalists
15:26still at it,
15:27and that is definitely true,
15:28there are also thousands
15:30and thousands less of them
15:31than there were 10 years ago
15:32and 20 years ago.
15:33Because the vehicle also
15:35for us to get out the truth
15:37and our stories
15:38is easier than ever.
15:39That's right.
15:39The sort of,
15:40the system and the structure
15:41of standards has been eroded,
15:42and so you or I can go on,
15:45you know, Instagram
15:46or whatever thing
15:47and put out something,
15:48and, like,
15:49that's how people
15:50absorb their news.
15:52So let me end, then,
15:53with the only other thing
15:55I wrote down,
15:56because we're talking about it.
16:00The end thing
16:01that makes me cry
16:01in All the President's Men,
16:03the last speech
16:04that Jason Robards
16:05gives to the boys
16:06when they greet him
16:07outside his house.
16:08I'm going to interrupt you
16:09for a second,
16:10since, like,
16:10this is how powerful
16:11that movie is to me.
16:12We both grew up
16:13in Washington.
16:14Yeah.
16:15Ben Bradley
16:15is a legendary figure.
16:16Yeah.
16:16When I think of Ben Bradley,
16:18I think of Jason Robards.
16:19That's right.
16:20That's who is in my head
16:20as that person.
16:22Yeah, that's right.
16:22But continue.
16:23No, that's it.
16:24He won an Academy Award,
16:26and Ned Beatty nominated
16:27for that one speech.
16:301976, pretty good year.
16:32Pretty good year in movies.
16:33He says to Redford
16:35and Hoffman,
16:37You know the results
16:38of the latest Gallup poll?
16:40Half the country
16:41never even heard
16:42of the word Watergate.
16:43Nobody gives a shit.
16:45I mean, again,
16:46it doesn't get better than that,
16:47and this is what I,
16:49in my brain,
16:49where I went with that.
16:51We have Jason Robards
16:52as Ben Bradley
16:53telling Robert Redford
16:55and Dustin Hoffman
16:56as Woodward and Bernstein
16:57this.
16:57And I'm like,
16:58ugh, can we go back
16:59to this and our priorities?
17:01We can have both.
17:02We can have both.
17:04But we certainly,
17:05the imbalance is not okay.
17:09And we've skewed one way
17:11in a way that,
17:12you know, anyway,
17:13this is why these movies
17:15have been selected by me.
17:16But these are all movies
17:17that to me are mandatory viewing
17:19if you care about American,
17:20you care about a Republican,
17:21you care about the concept
17:22of truth.
17:23All the presidents,
17:24men,
17:24the insider,
17:25network,
17:26Malcolm X,
17:27Rashomon,
17:28Ezra Edelman,
17:29guest director
17:29at Telluride.
17:30Thanks, man.
17:30Thanks, man.
17:31Great talking to you.
17:31You too.
17:32You too.
17:35You too.
17:35You too.
17:39You too.
17:40You too.
17:41You too.
17:42You too.
17:42You too.
17:42You too.