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00:04so Pascal thank you and that's how I started the interview with Tony as well and I mean it you
00:10know these these interviews for me like I said to Tony they're super personal because I moved
00:14here to Paris seven years ago I made basically four friends you know Hedwig Bries you and Tony
00:21and you know how here we are now releasing ledger stacks you know with two of literally my four
00:26friends in Paris so thank you for everything and thank you for being with us here today I think you
00:33know for for the listeners you've you've been involved with ledger since its inception you
00:39were the first first person to write a check to ledger for investment and you've been CEO since
00:442019 is that correct that's correct and what why why ledger why did you write that first check to
00:50ledger um so first of all thanks uh back at you uh you know it's uh it's it's a pleasure
00:59and it's
00:59great that you know it's very uh in business there there are many concepts and some people say that
01:05you should never work with friends I always um was strongly in disagreement with with this I think
01:12working with friends are great you know it's great and especially when your friends are really good and
01:16so you know I think it's a um pleasure that we all share mutually at ledger to to work together
01:22but
01:22especially with you and since you joined early 21 the impact is you know super visible uh making my
01:28life uh a lot easier and helping me you know uh uh make the why of ledger possible and so
01:35that's a
01:35thank you and also a segue to you know sort of why ledger well and it's also more fun right
01:40I mean
01:40come on that was one of my promises you in the beginning it's like we're also we're gonna have fun
01:43yeah Pascal and I are both like work hard play hard kind of people so that's maybe why we work
01:48well together too yeah no having fun is key and life is short so you might as well um work
01:53with
01:53people that you love uh so so the why ledger for me was very clear you know from the beginning
01:59but it
02:00was just a concept and then with time then it becomes a business right but uh I met with the
02:06ledger
02:06team end of 14 beginning of 15 and they pitched me a very simple story about security and using the
02:11chip and ping technology to secure crypto secrets um and I'm French so a little biased like you know
02:17the French invented the chip and ping technology and we've been told since we were kids that this
02:23was the most secure technology to secure uh crypto secrets and it is and so you know it was just
02:30after
02:30the Mongox incident and for me when I was you know sort of just starting my journey into crypto
02:34crypto it was obvious that security endpoint security was the main issue of crypto crypto has
02:39been designed for self-custody crypto has been designed for peer-to-peer exchange between users
02:44and so therefore to me it seemed ludicrous that you would risk losing the assets at any moment or at
02:50any point of time when you make a transaction like this wouldn't scale and so I thought security
02:55would be paramount and so I took my and and also meeting with the team at the time you know
02:59Eric
03:00Nicola and you know the rest of the founders they were all very extraordinary people uh they were
03:05all great and the reason why I was in business then the reason why I joined crypto then was to
03:10work
03:10with extraordinary people I thought that this was like where the trailblazers will be this this is where
03:16like the most crazy and genius people will be and it was uh and uh and the ledger team at
03:21the time was
03:22crazy genius and doing things that not many people would do anywhere else in the world and uh and really
03:29pitching this idea and for me they they found someone that was almost as crazy as they were
03:33and so my decision was taken in five minutes uh they were surprised actually because they were
03:39pitching this thing so hard and nobody wanted to invest I mean you know hardware crypto I mean you
03:44know like it's a terrible investments um but for me I was like sure I love it there is 200
03:50,000 uh and
03:52but I want a board seat and Eric was too happy to take my money and to give me the
03:55board seat but also I
03:56didn't know at the time that I was leading the round but apparently I did and so that's Eric
04:01said this to me years after he was like oh by the way you were the lead in the founding
04:07round
04:08and and because why because I took my decision very quickly and apparently you know I looked so
04:12convinced that people thought I knew something that I didn't know but I knew nothing uh I just knew that
04:17endpoint security would be important uh chip and pin was the right technology to do so they had a great
04:22team so let's fucking go like you know this is how you build businesses you know you need to
04:26take risks and so you you started as a board member at this you know new French company building
04:31you know hardware ultimately you became the president and and then the CEO um but I'm curious that
04:37journey I mean you know Ledger's been around for seven years and a lot's happened in crypto in those
04:41years and Ledger you know in in my view has had an incredibly steady hand right so the if I'm
04:47not wrong
04:48you could look at the prospectus that you said yes to and then look at the the mission of the
04:52company today and it's going to basically say the same thing we're about security and self-custody of
04:57crypto and digital assets or do I have that wrong has you know has a lot changed and then I'm
05:02also
05:03curious you know what it was like to be on the board of a crypto company over the last seven
05:07years
05:08through many cycles well like that's a big question and I apologize in advance for the monologue that I'm bad
05:14to give uh but look I think in still in the why just to finish on the why question uh
05:21there were
05:22definitely you know different steps in the journey of Ledger and some steps were more uh let's say
05:30operational like trying to figure out if it was something there and once you have that then you
05:35can actually work on the real why like you know not every company starts with the why every company
05:39starts with like a maybe you know you stumble upon something that you're trying to get something to
05:44work and actually at the board of Ledger for the first two years the question is like our hardware
05:49well it's really a thing uh you know I remember that every board we're sort of questioning that
05:53business model and trying to figure out whether we couldn't take the company uh somewhere else and
05:58you know for for a long time until you know somewhere in 2016 when the nano s came out and
06:04we started
06:04to see a sign of light and and definitely in the bull run of 17 then it became clear that
06:09it was
06:09our business but even after 17 when the when the market uh became bare again the question
06:16popped up again like you know are we really doing hardware well it's like you know is this really a
06:20business etc and to this date actually you know you still have some naysayers well probably a little
06:25less after FTX but uh but but there were some people thinking like is it a thing like you know
06:30are we
06:31going somewhere with this like isn't just like a gadget and so it's very difficult to uh to to to
06:38bring a business from sort of zero to where we are and it will be very difficult to take it
06:41from
06:42where we are to where we want to be um that that's one thing to say uh the other thing
06:48i want to say
06:49is the why also sort of comes with uh execution like you know again um at first you just trying
06:59to
06:59figure out if there is something and once you have something and and and today probably more than ever
07:04then the why starts to make sense and the why of ledger is really freedom and so this is something
07:09that i you know increasingly got passionate about it is this is the reason why i got into crypto in
07:13the first place because i thought it was financial freedom for everyone bitcoin but then i began to
07:19understand that this would never happen without ledger and i think if you want to be self-sovereign if
07:25you want to own your crypto if you want to own your identity if you want to switch from web
07:29to where
07:30you been depossessed from your life from your digital life and then you want to gain possession
07:35again of that digital life and suddenly be digitally sovereign uh they aren't many other options but
07:42ledger and so suddenly the why of ledger becomes so much more important and the we have a job to
07:49do
07:49uh we have customers to serve we have you know the world to free and then this is where it
07:55becomes
07:55super interesting because it's not just business uh and it has to be business we're a for-profit
08:00company you know you we all know this like don't get me wrong but the for-profit is to actually
08:04fuel
08:04the why uh and to invest in r&d and to do all these things that you know charles is
08:08doing with a dungeon
08:09etc this costs a lot of money but it's all for the good of the users and honestly we are
08:13a company
08:14with a mission like we're not just doing this to to to be doing good in business you know of
08:20course
08:20there would be a consequence of what we're doing but the reason why we're doing it is because
08:22we have a mission to you know secure the world to make web3 and web easy to use uh but
08:29also to
08:30make people free it was when i was talking to charles um something incredibly interesting came
08:35out sort of the of the original architecture you mentioned chip and pin earlier and chip and pin
08:39um has been used very successfully for tens of years to protect the secrets of banks and governments
08:46right in our credit cards and and and our passports etc and you know fundamentally what led what ledger
08:52does is it uses the same security model and and the same sort of chips to protect the secrets of
08:57individuals so i think it's interesting that at the very heart of the company is that freedom
09:02and the and the shift from you know banks and governments you know to individuals is that what
09:07you mean when you when you talk about you know sort of securing freedom and the ownership of
09:11individuals yeah a hundred percent you know like the the motors of ledger for a long time
09:16has been in various numeris or don't trust verify i mean we took you know this ethos of bitcoin
09:21and the siphon punks narrative of you know being your own bank and you know being your own sovereign
09:26individual i mean as a reaction to the 2008 crisis and you know the fact that nothing is too big
09:32to fail
09:32and you shouldn't trust centralized or your propositions and you know it's all true it's all the more true
09:36today with ftx you know going under in such a you know debacle i would say um and so lemon
09:44brothers
09:44mongoks you know ftx every seven years you get a reminder that you should not trust your digital
09:49life with with anyone and there are so many other examples of this and you know because at the same
09:55time why could you trust third parties when they can fail on their own where they can be hacked etc
09:59etc
10:00so you know trust yourself but in order to trust yourself you need to have the right tools
10:04and uh you know this is the future that we're building towards i think today is it perfect no when
10:09you
10:09look at ledger do we have a lot of work to do for sure uh you know security is strong
10:13but you know
10:14we need to do work on ux ui there are many things but this is the future the future is
10:19you know own
10:20uh your shit uh protect yourself be self-sovereign and with ftx to the before ftx people were
10:28questioning this with ftx happening people are like okay now i think we get it yeah i have to say
10:32even
10:32for myself when ftx launched a custodial nft uh site last year i was really thinking man maybe i'm wrong
10:39maybe maybe there will maybe some of these guys will be good they'll get to scale and you know
10:44they'll have a centralized value prop and we'll know that it's not really crypto but you know it's sort
10:48of like america online right easier to use for the newbies um you know and but uh you know we
10:54you know
10:54i think it's i think it's incredible that um you and the ledger team have really you know stuck so
10:59true
11:00to those those north stars because i think there were probably lots of places in the history of the
11:04company where there was a shiny object that you could have chased um that looked like you know
11:08nearer term shorter term revenue and and the fact that the board you know had the resolve to stick
11:13all the way through is is really commendable you know you mentioned the product i want to turn to
11:16that now um because the way i would describe it is you know ledger has these core values and ledger
11:21is built on this this core value of freedom and um you know but you know execution is everything
11:27ideas are cheap execution is hard at the end of the day you have to build a product you know
11:31we have a
11:32hardware roadmap and we just announced ledger stacks this week so i want to spend um a good amount
11:36of time there we've got ledger live um and ledger connect we have the developer platform and then
11:42we have the services that are built on top of this platform we've got you know the the transactional
11:46services buy sell swap stake lend and a credit card all from a self-custody value proposition
11:51um we have our our nft business which is closely connected to ledger enterprise
11:55um and we should follow up in it with a specific episode on ledger enterprise i think
12:00um and then you know we have some some other services that we're building for uh for the
12:06future so you know how is it that you think about you know what should ledger do and and what
12:11isn't
12:12ledger's business to do right because there's a lot we do there's a lot we don't do so how do
12:16you
12:16how do you decide um for the company what's in and what's out oh man that's a billion dollar
12:21question but you know i think first um when you run your business you have to understand what's your
12:27most precious asset where you have a clear differentiator we have an edge um actually
12:32you know when i was thinking about changing jobs actually i come from online advertising my
12:38previous company was critio we listed in nasdaq in 2013 and after that i was looking for like a new
12:43career new job etc and actually i didn't know what i wanted to do but i wanted i knew a
12:47few things one i
12:48wanted to uh work from france uh two i wanted to work on something very international uh with high
12:54scalability reach a hundred billion dollar in valuation and because i was all this you know
12:59have an edge uh while doing it in france and you know if you if you think like that you
13:03know ledger
13:03is exactly the consequence of that's a scorecard like because we're in france we have the best
13:09hardware engineers we have the best crypto engineers you know it's it's all about like the the the people
13:14actually funny enough like you know uh the the the luck is part of business and you know i don't
13:20think
13:21the uh without you without tony or without like you know the the diversity of the team that we
13:26have in paris in terms of nationalities and and talent etc i don't think this will be possible and
13:31you know it was very lucky that you were just like sort of hanging in paris and and we got
13:36to be friends
13:36etc etc but you know that's part of like to ski that we both like to drink you know there's
13:40there's
13:41yeah luck happens this way luck happens this way but it's part of also business it's network network
13:45network and so you know it's uh you know luck you i think you create your luck and you seize
13:49opportunities and you know that i've been trying to get you and tony in the business for three years
13:54before you decided to join so yeah i i tried hard uh and uh and and thank god i i
14:00think i succeeded
14:01and it's true for many of the the people that were recruited at ledger you know it was not
14:05always a walk in the park to bring the talent in and you know this is this is part of
14:09the resilience
14:09but i think you know the triptych to build great businesses is ambition first
14:14and it's very important resilience second and then perfect execution uh on just on the ambition
14:19like you know you know very well then when you join like i had a problem of communication with
14:23the team where the team at the time uh and that's that was still true early 21 they didn't really
14:30understand what i what i was saying when i was saying that we're shooting for 100 billion
14:33and actually building big businesses it's a thing of like knowing that it's possible and sometimes
14:40the people that have done it before seen it before know it's possible versus people that
14:44have never done it always question even the possibility of it like you know can we really
14:48do 100 billion dollar business you and i both know it's possible we've met people that have
14:52built 100 billion dollar business we love them they're super smart but you know i think it's
14:56okay we we can probably do it it's going to be very hard is it guaranteed that we're going
15:00to succeed probably not will we fail most definitely you know 90 chance that we're going
15:05to fail but there is a 10 chance that we can make it and you know we're going to make
15:09everything that we fit in that 10 and that we we nail it but ambition is sort of key when
15:14you're
15:14trying to build something because every decision is based on the ambition that that you have if your
15:19ambition is to compete with apple then you don't hire some people you don't make the same decisions
15:23than if your ambition is to uh run a very small family business in in a village in corsica i
15:29mean you
15:29know and and both are great you know it's not one better or the other it's just two different
15:34options and so you don't uh execute the same way resilience is something that we discuss you know
15:39from 2014 to now all the bull bear etc you know it's a it's a it's a roller coaster that
15:47really test
15:48your emotions and how strongly you believe in this business um and me i was discussing it with friends
15:55in london recently that are in trading business and i was like well how the fuck can you be so
15:59resilient
15:59and how can you sleep at night uh and for me because it's not about money and so resilience
16:05also comes from the fact that you know i want to build something and i know there is no such
16:09thing
16:09as a as an overnight sensation uh everything is hard work hours long time outworking everyone so
16:17you know uh resilience is key in business not to be mistaken with being stubborn i think you know
16:23sometimes if you're wrong you have to admit quickly that you're wrong and move on but if you feel
16:27that you have something and you feel that it's working and if you feel that you're solving a
16:30problem then you know putting on the time and the work and not thinking that it's going to happen
16:35overnight because all these stories are always wrong and you can tell the story about billy eilish
16:39because i think it's a it's a great one uh but i'll tell you quickly because it is such a
16:43great one
16:43um i had the pleasure of introducing steve berman who if anyone's an m&m fan then you know who
16:48steve
16:48berman and he runs interscope is he runs interscope records he's a great human being and a friend
16:52um but he was also involved in billy eilish and billy wanted to be and i don't think this is
16:57a
16:57secret was interested there was a mutual interest between dior and louis vuitton and in meeting
17:02billy eilish so i made the introduction to steve berman and both those teams and the way that steve
17:07would uh would introduce the the billy eilish project is he would say we've got this little
17:11overnight sensation we've been working on for three years and i think that that that's i've seen that
17:16true in my career so many times anytime you think something happened overnight it's just because
17:21you weren't paying attention to the first seven years even the ipod as we were talking about our
17:26memory is that it was an overnight sensation the reality is is that apple was a ten dollar stock
17:30had less than two percent market share and you know the ipod uh didn't work on windows was actually
17:36the beginning of the story and it took two or three years for it to become the ipod that we
17:40we
17:40remember so even um you know overnight sensations of recent memory are not quite what you think them to be
17:46100 i love that story about billy eilish like you know three years overnight sensation
17:50for the session working on for three years but it's so true you know everything is about
17:54hard work resilience uh and so you know when people look at ledger today and they look at us
18:02and like oh my god like you guys you know sometimes you know people are very nice and they say
18:05nice
18:05things about us i always try to remind everyone like look you know a it was hard and it took
18:10us time
18:11to get there and b we're not anywhere yet and you know we have places to go and so it's
18:16not the time
18:16to be complacent it's the time to work hard still it's the time to serve our customers it's the time
18:20to do the right things to be good businessmen to be uh you know handling the business like uh
18:27uh like we have a responsibility i really feel that you know ledger has a very very fucking strong
18:31responsibility in this market now and especially again within the light of everything that has
18:35happened so you know we are you know we we owe our users to work you know twice harder now
18:41than ever uh and you know to fulfill our destiny and and finally it's about perfect execution which
18:47was your original question perfect execution is something that uh is very very hard because
18:53first you have to know what you don't know which is one of the biggest trick uh in the business
18:58book
18:59people that think that they know everything are wrong uh they don't know uh and and and the trick is
19:05to figure out what you don't know and perfect and usually when you don't know something you need to
19:09find someone that knows that thing really well and so perfect execution is all about people you know
19:14people change companies uh it's not ai you know it's not bi like you have it's not robots you have
19:23all these terminologies etc but it's really people and eventually you enhance people with ai bi and
19:28and robots but like you need uh you need you need the best uh to win the game you need
19:33to to
19:34the best but also the best team you know the you know something that we discuss a lot was the
19:38the last dance michael jordan like you know fantastic tv show uh on netflix where you can
19:43really see that you know there's the team the organization like you know how they win championships
19:47etc and like it's just a beautiful um allegory not even allegory but an example of like you know how
19:52how it is to win how do you win uh and perfect execution in the end like you want to
19:57win like you
19:57know you want to you know you want to win you want you want your model to prevail and you
20:02know the
20:02the why we want the model to prevail is because we want to make people free and you know we
20:06believe
20:07that it's important to be secure and we believe the security is freedom uh for the future for the
20:12future digital future of everyone uh but perfect execution is this and actually you can really
20:17see the impact on of uh of uh of the management at ledger you know people focus too much on
20:24ceo
20:25sometimes and forget that you know ceo is nothing without its organization so i'm only i only look good
20:30if my team is amazing uh and the better my team is the better i look and so it's a
20:35virtuous circle
20:36that you try to try to put in place but also as you know you know you play with trust
20:41and transparency
20:41you don't hire uh you know ian rogers charles uh sep badeau you don't work with a guy like tony
20:49fidel to tell him what to do you you hire these people to so they tell me what i don't
20:54know uh and i let
20:59this is this is what perfect execution is but it's all where i take you know the most of my
21:04pleasure
21:04because i learned so many things uh you know with my team from my team uh this is super rich
21:10this is
21:11where i'm taking my you know the most pleasure in my job i guess i think this is actually a
21:15perfect
21:15segue into the story of stacks from from your perspective um so i joined the company and i think
21:21maybe i hadn't even joined the company yet i just said i was going to join the company and i
21:24was
21:25trying to extract myself um from lvmh and we had a we had a dinner and and a lunch i
21:30remember both
21:31uh with tony and where you know and he tells this story in the in the podcast as well for
21:36the listeners
21:37i encourage you to listen to the to the um episode with tony as well where he tells this story
21:41um you
21:42know but from our perspective in some ways he you know he told us that our baby was ugly right
21:46he said
21:46okay you've got the ipod shuffle and you're working on the ipod touch but you're really missing the
21:50ipod nano which by the way was the hit and if you don't um you know fill that hole then
21:56you're not
21:57only are you missing an opportunity but maybe you're opening opening yourself up to to competition
22:01um so i think it feeds really well into what you're saying because you know first of all um you
22:06know i
22:06think it hurts anytime when someone tells you your baby is ugly um at the same time you know we
22:11had
22:11to had to you know really kind of make a lot of changes in what we were doing as a
22:16business very
22:17quickly um to accommodate a new and pretty challenging idea and and then we you know we
22:22also welcomed in you know some some you know some new ways of working uh as a result so well
22:29i'm
22:29curious the story from your perspective well but it's very similar to what you described i mean you
22:33know i don't uh i remember exactly the same thing the only thing i would add is for me i
22:38didn't take
22:39offense in you know finding out my baby was ugly because a you know when it's tony uh who says
22:44it so
22:45you're like well he knows better but interestingly enough we had another advisor so um tony uh did
22:51nest and fred potter which was a previous board member uh did a company in france uh called with
22:57things and then he did another company called um uh well similar to similar to nest and i can't
23:04remember the name of the company i'm ashamed uh but anyway amazing entrepreneur uh also amazing in
23:10hardware etc and funny enough fred potter made exactly the same comment as tony he was like
23:14because i was presenting the the you know the product that i that i had a vision for and you
23:18know and fred gave me exactly the same feedback as no no you're going too far you need like a
23:23step in between etc so whatever uh comment tony made like sort of resonated with this but you know
23:28they were right and you know they know better than i know what i don't know and i know that
23:32you
23:32know if i ask tony a question like it's not to not take the feedback like you know you ask
23:37someone who's been on the top of the world like a real builder that have designed products
23:42but also you know tony didn't just say oh you know your baby is ugly and you know this is
23:47uh
23:48you know maybe i give you a little idea like tony was very precise also in defining the vision that
23:52he had like you know and so that commands respect because it's not just uh you know sometimes people
23:58give you the obvious idea that everybody has uh it's very rare that actually someone comes
24:04with uh something that really solves the problem and really nails it like in every fucking detail from
24:09sort of design to go to market to the why to the everything and so i think where well you
24:15know
24:15what i always say and i had to i had to really implement this as a rule when i worked
24:19at lvmh is
24:20criticism is not allowed unless it is accompanied by an alternate proposal because i you know i think in
24:25and i want to say this to the audience because notice this in your life if somebody says oh i
24:29don't
24:29like your idea that's a lot different than saying you know i think it would be better if
24:35right like those you know there are some people who just want to you know kind of um rain on
24:40your
24:41parade and there are some people that actually want to propose a better direction and and you're
24:44right tony is sort of the extreme example of uh of the latter yeah extreme and also like i was
24:51super
24:52what i didn't expect from those discussions i thought that it would give us like the direction and
24:58you know a very precise idea of a direction i didn't really expect him working so much uh with us
25:03on the
25:03matter and i think that if he didn't we probably wouldn't be here today um and so you know and
25:10i've
25:10rarely seen real rainmakers like a lot of people in business say that they're rainmakers like that
25:15they can do business etc it's very rare uh that people can be as operational as tony and as sort
25:22of
25:22senior and rainmaker in terms of connecting you to the world of business and you know especially in
25:27building hardware we know now you know this is something that we've learned through the experience and
25:32with the team that you know tony helped us brought in etc where we have a pretty we're a very
25:37solid
25:38hardware team now at ledger uh but everything matters every fucking detail matters like you know
25:44it was so detailed that plan like you know everything that we're doing to get this product to market
25:48which in the end will feel very natural in the hand of users but it was so difficult like the
25:53plan
25:54it's it's a it's a master plan it's beautiful from design to uh production to you know every little
26:02aspect of the device the the magnets the screen etc i mean it's really you know watching um a maestro
26:10uh directing an orchestra and you know and suddenly you have all these instruments and in the end
26:15everything makes sense but it's so difficult uh and so uh you know really a privilege uh to work with
26:21uh
26:22someone like uh like tony fidel and this is this is this is the closest that you get to perfect
26:26execution by the way and and why is is ledger stacks um as a device important in sort of the
26:33mission of
26:34ledger right if the mission of ledger is is freedom you know we've we've got a security device in um
26:39you know in the ledger nano um the the security architecture of of of ledger stacks is the same
26:46you know the difference is the screen the form factor and why is you know the world's first e-ink
26:52touchscreen which you know sounds like a marketing tagline important in a mission that that comes
26:57back to freedom well you know our mission is uh security and ease of use right uh and and freedom
27:03is probably our our why uh but um and so that fits into the ease of use category and it's
27:09really really
27:09ux and ui uh user experience user interface i think our products were largely due to an upgrade
27:16you know fairness you know uh thinking about the founding team we had the ledger blue back in uh
27:21i can't remember if it was 16 or 17 but like ages ago uh except that but but it's interesting
27:28so
27:28we already had that idea of like uh of this device with a bigger screen except that it didn't work
27:34uh and it's a product that we discontinued and uh the bluetooth never really worked so
27:41and and so you can see that perfect execution is difficult ideas everybody has the same ideas i
27:47guess but it's not the question of the idea uh and by the way when when when tony designed this
27:52he did something that was very fun like he bought all the products in the market he opened them up
27:57like
27:57you know real engineer uh type of work um and for him it was not about to he was not
28:03trying to do
28:04like something that was from another world he was just trying to make the best of this product and
28:08similar to the story that he's telling about the ipod you know mp3 players pre-existed the ipod like
28:13he just made like the best mp3 players sort of ever and you know taking all the other mp3 players
28:19and
28:19seeing what's wrong and trying to find the best ux the best ui etc with the success that we know
28:24now and
28:24so this is a little bit the same so some people will say well you know it's just another hardware
28:29wallet
28:29okay but it's the best one and why because of ux ui and typically that uh another funny story that
28:36e-ink screen i had the idea before too like i was like and i asked the engineering team before
28:41i was
28:41like it'd be nice to have an e-ink screen because intuitively it feels nice like you know to for
28:47money it's like paper i don't know there's something there that you know just makes sense
28:51but when i asked the uh the former engineering team they told me it's not possible
28:56i was like okay fine and because i don't know what and then when tony said we're gonna do an
29:01e-ink screen i was like okay now you know i i know how you feel and i agree so
29:06for me it was very
29:06easy to to see where he was going with this but the thing he knew how to make it work
29:11he knew exactly
29:12how to make it work and everybody thought it was impossible you know you remember and you know
29:17way back when and even today like people are still questioning it they're like is it really
29:21possible is it really possible the only guy on the planet who knows it's possible who knew it was
29:25possible who know it's possible and will make it happen is tony and was willing to to sort of we
29:31talk about this in the interview with with tony is that it's just possible and that's actually where
29:35he likes to live you know with things that are you know not easy but possible and um and yes
29:40there's
29:41risk but risk and reward are commensurate and you know so like knowing where that edge is is um is
29:47a
29:47part that that i find quite fascinating because you know we always take risk in in business the
29:52question is how much risk right some people are more comfortable with some people are comfortable
29:56more some are comfortable with less and i think the interesting thing about this business is you
30:00know we don't take risk when it comes to security which sometimes makes us move more slowly right and
30:06there are very practical places that that crops up um charles talked about the length of time it takes
30:10to have an application security reviewed by ledger right place where we would like to move faster but
30:14you know we don't because there's an unacceptable level of risk um you know but here is a place
30:19where we are willing to take kind of acceptable level of risk in order to create something that
30:24that has a great you know feel form factor usability and ease of use for the customer i think that's
30:29actually quite interesting thing about our business oh yeah definitely but you know like the back to
30:35the last dance michael jordan etc and you know michael jordan is a big influence in
30:39the winning mentality and and why i want to win in business uh but for me it's just like this
30:46ability
30:47of michael jordan like to shoot the last basket at the buzzer and and and get it right sort of
30:52every
30:52time like you know it actually has crazy statistics on this where michael jordan is actually better
30:56under pressure in the end than you know on the average game or as good as you know so and
31:01and he's
31:02one of a kind on this like you know he doesn't crack under pressure he's actually where he's at his
31:06best
31:06and so there is a similar mentality with with tony where he wants that last shot like he was gonna
31:13take it like he's sure he's gonna take it and you and he and he knows that he's gonna do
31:17it uh
31:17and so because in hindsight like i didn't know like almost you know 18 months ago that this would work
31:25like he i mean he didn't really but he just knew he was like no no give me the ball
31:30i'll score you know
31:32there's a great if you've if you watch the the beatles documentary i can't remember the name of it
31:35but the one that came out over the past year they're they're like you know trying to get this
31:39show done and it's they've got like 48 hours or something to like write new songs and do this show
31:44and at some point john lennon looks at paul mccartney who's paul mccartney's like you know the adult in
31:48the room like come on guys let's go and at some point you know lazy looking john lennon goes i
31:56think
31:56you'll find i do my best work when my back's against the wall paul i love those guys too i
32:02feel like
32:02maybe we're all we're all some of those well listen i know you have you've got to get to the
32:06airport and and i need to let you go so first of all i need you to make me a
32:09promise that we're
32:09going to do a podcast for ledger you and i once a quarter and we'll and we'll talk about that
32:14about
32:14the company i think it would actually be um something that the audience would be interesting
32:18interested in hearing you and i why not talk about you know what we're doing how we're running the
32:23business outside of ledger open that'd be great you do that with me well when it comes to these
32:27matters i told you already you're the boss of me so you know it's funny because you know it sounds
32:32like i work it sounds like you you work for me and i always tell my team that i work
32:35for them
32:35um and maybe maybe that's how maybe that's how it really works um and second it works the second
32:41thank you this is really fucking fun i love doing this doing this with you man i mean that sincerely
32:46and what a proud moment like uh you know i know we're we're all like working our asses off here
32:51like like most devs says i always say and you refer to it to this from another way earlier the
32:55plan
32:56hard work results good living and uh we're definitely working our asses off and uh and but it's
33:01but it's a blast i wouldn't i wouldn't be at any other company with any other team doing any other
33:05thing so thanks for having me here appreciate it oh you know like it's a it's a it's really a
33:11shared
33:11pleasure i think uh it's funny because the story of you joining the company the people question it
33:18like was like ian rogers are you sure like you know yeah that dude's a weirdo isn't it too you
33:23know
33:23big for the company and have you looked at his salary like all these questions they were like dudes
33:27like it's fine give me giving what he wants etc will make a difference uh it's it's funny because
33:35um uh i i say this for the audience but you know my life since you joined the company my
33:40life has
33:41changed in the sense that now people recognize me in the street which is a weird feeling because
33:45you know like why would they care so much about the ceo of ledger but you know the the impact
33:51that
33:51ledger has in the market right now the fact that we're in everything that you see about ledger
33:54people tell me oh my god ledger you're doing so well he has changed a lot etc people take notice
33:59of what ledger has become and you know this is largely due to the impact that you've had uh in
34:04the company so for me 100 it's fun and you know working as my friend but fucking results like i
34:10live
34:10for results and what we're seeing now is results this is business and results are amazing uh and i think
34:16i'm very excited for ledger open i think the team is yet last ledger open was great i think this
34:24is yet another level up you know in terms of preparation etc now we have to go through it
34:30and we have to launch stacks because this is pre-recorded uh and uh and and results will
34:35matter in the end only the results uh but uh but but the journey has to be fun and so
34:40this is
34:41definitely a fun journey uh having fun with you having fun uh with with the team hopefully having
34:47fun with our customers i think you know people engage more and more uh with us in a very friendly
34:52and
34:54happy manner uh and you know trying to maintain that for the future you know for me i really want
34:59the future to to stay you know very strong result-driven security company but also with a
35:07very nice touch of fun internally and externally i think you know this is this is about freedom this
35:13is about life so it has to be fun as well totally agree i could well we're gonna do it
35:17again i have so
35:18many more things to talk to you about but i know you got a plane to catch so thank you
35:21for making the
35:21time appreciate it merci beaucoup this content is provided for informational purposes only and is
35:33the sole expression of our opinion and should not be relied upon as legal business investment or tax
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