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CreativityTranscript
00:00:04so Charles thanks very much for joining us um got with me Charles Guillemet who is Ledger's CTO
00:00:10how long have you been with Ledger? I joined Ledger five years ago so it's uh it's a long
00:00:15time now uh I'm an OG in the company when I joined that was a small startup now a lot
00:00:21of
00:00:21things have changed what a journey and and your job has changed too right what was the job that
00:00:26you came in to do um because I don't think it was CTO yeah when I joined so that was
00:00:31a small startup
00:00:32we were around 45 and I really remember the day I joined uh I met Nicolas who is who was
00:00:39the CTO
00:00:40at this time and Nicolas showed me an empty room there was nothing like not even desks there was
00:00:47nothing and he told me hey this is uh this is here that you have to create the security department
00:00:53of
00:00:53Ledger I was a little bit surprised to be to be honest but that was incredibly exciting to have
00:00:59a blank page and being able to write your own story so yeah at first my mission was to create
00:01:05the security department so I was a chief security officer at first and and that the security department
00:01:11is what is today known as the dungeon no exactly uh we we called it the dungeon because the this
00:01:17empty room is a little bit hidden there was a hidden stairs uh who go upstairs uh so that's why
00:01:24we
00:01:24decided to uh call it the dungeon and uh this is a small group of people who are incredibly good
00:01:31at
00:01:32security cryptography hardware software and and now they are also focusing on the blockchain security
00:01:38and so why did Ledger create the dungeon five years ago I think that was the that was the vision
00:01:45of
00:01:45uh Nicolas uh Eric Pascal at this time uh they were they definitely wanted to create a security
00:01:52company like the value proposition of Ledger was security and when you uh when you are involved in
00:01:59security there was something for sure the best way to know if your product is secure is to try to
00:02:06break it you have to do this again and again and it's a never-ending story you you have to
00:02:11try to
00:02:11break it to and this is doing that that you uh you you are able to improve the security to
00:02:18to to raise
00:02:19the bar for security so the mission was definitely this trying to break the product in order to
00:02:24improve it and and I mean first of all I love this part about the company and for listeners who
00:02:30haven't
00:02:30seen it there's a great um series on Ledger's youtube called enter the dungeon which shows the team
00:02:35doing what it is they do so we don't need to spend too much time on it here people can
00:02:39can go watch
00:02:40that um if they if they want to know and I'd like to move on to you know your your
00:02:44current you know
00:02:46role as CTO of Ledger but I also I think you know what I find really interesting first of all
00:02:51in all sincerity I really enjoy working with you like you're it's it's um I think that that the level
00:02:58of um you know technical skill is is extraordinary but also you're you're quite uh you have you have
00:03:04like the users and the business in mind within in in the way that you approach and that's not always
00:03:10true with uh with people in in in technology right some people just like to build cool things and
00:03:15you know they're almost resentful of the of the commercial side of it but I think you have a great
00:03:19balance of of skills and and the rest of the picture but also the thing I find interesting you
00:03:24know I studied computer science but I really know extremely little about you know what is your kind
00:03:29of core métier as we would say here in France um or you know craft is what we would say
00:03:35in America
00:03:36um you know so what tell me like how did you come to have the the technical skill that you
00:03:42have you
00:03:43know where did you study what did you study you know what what were your interests how did you cut
00:03:47your teeth um yeah it's it's an interesting story I think I started to get interested in this
00:03:54when I was 12 when I got a computer the first thing I wanted to do was to try to
00:04:01understand how
00:04:02things work I'm I'm a curious person I want to to to really understand how things work and when you
00:04:09really understand how something works you can find a way to use it in another way this is this is
00:04:15what
00:04:15hacking is it's thinking differently and and this is really how I am I I really have this adversarial
00:04:23thinking when I really want to understand things and and try to see it another way and when you do
00:04:29that this is what you what we call hacking and when I was 12 so when I got a computer
00:04:34I I really I
00:04:35wanted to understand how this machine are working how internet was working and and as soon as you have
00:04:43a challenge a problem to solve then hacking is a way to solve it I remember at this time internet
00:04:49was
00:04:49uh you you didn't have unlimited internet and uh and I my mother allowed me to have uh 200 francs
00:04:57of
00:04:58internet a month but that was definitely not enough uh very quickly uh in in one week I I was
00:05:06uh I was
00:05:07spending this 200 francs so I had to find a way to understand how this ISP were working and if
00:05:14it's
00:05:14possible to have to have internet for free and I quickly find a way to do that and I if
00:05:19I I think
00:05:19this this was my my first hack like hiking my uh internet service provider in order to have to have
00:05:25free internet it's so funny you know I've heard that story more than once actually Tony Fidel has
00:05:29a similar story you know he wanted to use BBSs so that's how he became a phone freaker I wonder
00:05:34how
00:05:34many people the telco industry made into hackers I would love there it seems like you could have a book
00:05:39just on you know how many hackers were created by the the the sort of um you know like overreach
00:05:46of
00:05:46uh of telco freight um you know fee models yeah that's true and and after that I've studied pure
00:05:53mathematics uh because uh yeah I really like uh mathematics I really like abstraction uh like
00:05:59thinking out of the box uh taking a step back and trying to understand think things in abstract way
00:06:07uh so I really enjoyed that and at some point I I wanted to become a mathematician I wanted to
00:06:15do
00:06:15uh to do research in mathematics um and at some point I understood the system in France especially for
00:06:22uh mathematics research and so on I was a little bit frustrated to to understand how this system is
00:06:28working so yeah discussing with my professor uh they encouraged me to uh to go to uh to uh computer
00:06:35science also because I was also passionate by computer science but I was studying mathematics
00:06:41and so this is when I decided to uh study uh computer science more uh theoretically because I I really
00:06:48had
00:06:48a very practical um knowledge of computer science and uh and then so I studied then uh computer science
00:06:56and when you do mathematics computer science and you want to work in this area cryptography is uh is the
00:07:03the best way because you have pure mathematics with all this algebra and all this abstraction
00:07:09and you have computer science because at some point cryptography needs to be uh implemented so this is
00:07:15this is uh how I decided to uh study uh cryptography that was uh a little bit more than 15
00:07:22years ago
00:07:23and at this time cryptography was a little bit dusty like uh this was not something cool as it is
00:07:29today so it's it's crazy to see that it became cool but at this time it was a little bit
00:07:35dusty
00:07:35something for mathematician guy who are working in their lab not talking to people and so on
00:07:41and with blockchain in in 10 years like did the field of cryptography um did a huge jump uh like
00:07:49a lot
00:07:50of research has been done in zero knowledge in uh multi-party computation in uh in signature scheme
00:07:58uh in post quantum crypto like in only 10 years a lot of progress has been done in in this
00:08:03area
00:08:04this is a this is really really interesting so this is what I studied and then I worked more
00:08:10in security because cryptography and security are not exactly the same thing cryptography is really
00:08:16something mathematical uh you you write equation and you make sure that the equation allows you to
00:08:24encrypt sign and you you have all the the property you need but when it comes to implement it you
00:08:31have
00:08:32new challenges um because your your equation can be okay but if your implementation is not uh you can
00:08:40break uh the security of your system even if the equation are correct so after that I worked more in
00:08:46in the security area you know it's I know exactly what you mean too by the way when I was
00:08:50studying
00:08:50computer science in the early 90s you know um people would go talk to somebody else at the party
00:08:55but even just a few years later suddenly you know even just computers were something that were in the
00:09:00average person's life you know then I think what happened you know in the years since and I'm I'm
00:09:06quite a few years older than you depending on everything's relative um but is that you know it's
00:09:10become much more about applied computing right and cryptography has become like an integral part of
00:09:15our lives I was really surprised I was listening to to Scott Galloway's um podcast one day he was
00:09:20talking to a Harvard dean if I you know recall correctly they were talking about things like
00:09:25the future of education and had absolutely nothing to do with crypto and um Scott asked him at the end
00:09:31of the interview you know if you had what you know one bit of advice to give you know a
00:09:35young person
00:09:35um who's just entering college what would it be and out of nowhere the guy said understand
00:09:41cryptography and I like I almost fell out of my chair when I heard him say it because I I
00:09:46thought
00:09:46oh wow this is it's but what I realize is that's kind of like telling someone to understand the
00:09:51internet in you know 1992 right knowing that this will be an increasingly important part of our lives
00:09:57you know good advice to young people who want to be successful in the future would be to understand
00:10:01this quite complex thing which is going to be you know is going to have a um you know an
00:10:06increased
00:10:07relative importance so I'm I'm curious you know if you were talking to you know a young woman or a
00:10:12young man um you know who was kind of entering college at the moment you know would your advice
00:10:18to them be similar relative to cryptography relative to security like what you know what's an
00:10:22what's the interesting field of study for tomorrow do you think in general I think science and technology
00:10:28is a very promising field in general and if you zoom in a little bit more in uh in technology
00:10:35from my perspective there are two main revolutions ongoing the first one is blockchain and for
00:10:41blockchain there are different aspects cryptography is a very important one but you have also distributed
00:10:48system you have also plenty of things around the computer science but cryptography is at the core
00:10:53of that and there is another field which is not related but which is also uh which is also
00:11:00continuing to boom uh which is AI like machine learning and and so on uh I think we don't
00:11:07understand yet how it will uh impact the society and and so on uh I think this is a this
00:11:13is another
00:11:14revolution ongoing so I want to turn to the security of ledger and in in one second but there's one
00:11:19more
00:11:19thing I really find fascinating that I think that that you're both an example of and you have some
00:11:24insight in and you know there's the joke that you you know you're hard pressed to find a um crypto
00:11:29project anywhere in the world without French people on the team and I think it's interesting that you
00:11:33know you were advised to go into cryptography 15 years ago and I think that says something about where
00:11:38you were studying and who you were studying with and I think is actually quite you know unique to the
00:11:43experience that you had in in university here in France why is it that um you know cryptography and
00:11:49security are are a metier of France and you know you have so much great engineering talent from here
00:11:55with this skill it's a good question first of all if you think about the education system in France
00:12:02there is something which is uh quite um unique uh the way we are selecting students in order to uh
00:12:11to get
00:12:11the best student for a specific uh specific uh um study let's say uh we are selecting them with
00:12:20mathematics like if you are good in math you can get a good engineer you can get a good high
00:12:25schools
00:12:26you can get a good universities so like we are in France we are selecting people through mathematics
00:12:32if you're not good at mathematics uh you you it's more difficult to uh to to to get uh good
00:12:39studies
00:12:39uh afterwards so this is a this is the first reason and so when when when you talk about
00:12:46mathematics then uh you are also orienting where people are going so like that's also why uh France
00:12:53has so many uh fields medal uh in in the world the fields medal is a nobel prize for mathematicians
00:13:00and I think uh in in the overall history of uh of this uh this medal uh we have in
00:13:08France five
00:13:09mathematicians and we are the on the podium at least or or maybe maybe first so France is very good
00:13:16at
00:13:16at selecting uh and also uh promoting uh mathematics so that would be the first reason I think and the
00:13:23the second one also is uh industries uh we have plenty of uh industries which which were um focused
00:13:32on security with uh gemalto oberture uh idemia which which are are where uh the leaders in the world
00:13:40uh in in security well and and and so let's come around to the to the security of ledger and
00:13:46that a nice
00:13:46you know segue there is the is that in many ways you know in ledger's founding the realization was that
00:13:53this technology which was developed in France but used all over the world chip and pin technology
00:13:58which is in everyone's credit card could be you know a great way to to protect cryptocurrency as
00:14:03well so the other thing that that um we talk about at ledger is is um you know resilience or
00:14:09security by
00:14:10design right so there's an assumption kind of baked into it um that it you know that that it you
00:14:16must have the the secure design or you don't have security so expand on that a little bit for me
00:14:20what
00:14:20does that mean specifically in the business of ledger yes definitely um so what you are referring
00:14:26to is smart card technology and this technology starts to be a little old it started i think
00:14:32almost 40 years ago it has been invented 40 years ago but the chip we are using now are definitely
00:14:39very different from the first version of smart cards and smart card is a very tiny chip
00:14:46uh where there is uh not much uh computation power not much memory uh not much things but
00:14:53it's really specialized in one thing like security cryptography and from a threat model perspective
00:15:00it's it's a good practice because you are splitting your application from the security part of the
00:15:07application so when you think about your system and you want to make sure it's secure you you already
00:15:14have a hardware isolation between your application and the security and when you think about designing
00:15:19your system it's really easier to think about that you have the security on one side and you can focus
00:15:24on this what are the interface what comes in what goes out uh how it's implemented inside and you can
00:15:32focus also on the application but those things are completely separate so this is really a good practice
00:15:37and then during this 40 years uh like the technology within smart cards have improved has improved a lot
00:15:45and the bar the bar for security has also increased a lot and then it's a cat and mouse game
00:15:51where uh
00:15:52attackers and evaluation laboratory of finding um better attacks and vendors needs to adapt and to improve the
00:16:02security and what also happen is that they have like the the vendor the industry created a certification scheme
00:16:12i think at first it was to put a barrier of entry to competitors so this they created this framework
00:16:19so that if you don't have the certification you can't sell your smart card to uh to banks or to
00:16:25state for ids and so on
00:16:27and this certification scheme is such that in order to get the certification you have to go through an
00:16:33evaluation process uh and to pass the bar for security and this bar always uh increase or always uh is
00:16:42always better or more difficult to to to reach because the evaluator because the state of the art attacks
00:16:49evolve and attacks becomes more and more um efficient and so on so that means that the vendor needs to
00:16:56uh to
00:16:56adapt and to uh to create more secure product so that's why today it's more than more difficult than
00:17:03ever uh to uh to to break uh that circuit so we talk about the fact that there's a secure
00:17:08element
00:17:09inside of ledger devices you know and you described you know kind of the the model with that but
00:17:14what what actually what actually makes a secure element secure compared to because there are some
00:17:20competitor products which don't use a secure element um and then you also have and maybe juxtapose that
00:17:25again with the the secure element that's inside of you know some cell phones but which is also
00:17:31different from what's inside of a ledger device so give us you know for for someone um who's you know
00:17:36who maybe has only a you know a surface understanding of the technology you know what's the difference and
00:17:42what's the importance for me as a consumer when i'm you know making a choice on which device i'm buying
00:17:46so when you think about smart card technology it's been designed for banking system and also for uh for
00:17:54identity and in this case there are two main properties that they they want to fulfill the
00:18:00first one is um being like extraction of secrets which are inside the smart card must be very very
00:18:08difficult that means that you can give your banking card to an attacker and even with a very large amount
00:18:14of time of money of equipment expertise it will be extremely difficult to extract secret so this is the
00:18:21first property they they want to fulfill and the second one is integrity they want to make sure that
00:18:26the code running uh inside the the secure element uh is the is the genuine one and it has not
00:18:32been tampered
00:18:32so this is basically the two main properties they want to fulfill in their case the secret which is inside
00:18:40your inside your banking card or your passport is not yours it's the bank's one it's the state's one and
00:18:47but uh but still they don't want you uh to steal uh your your the secret inside so we are
00:18:54using the
00:18:55same technology but in a little bit uh different way meaning that the secret that we put inside the
00:19:02smart card are user secrets so this is this is a big difference for there there comes the decentralization
00:19:07i love that by the way i mean i just want to recap that for the listener like you know
00:19:10if the you know the
00:19:11same technology is used to protect the secrets of banks and governments and so if you look at
00:19:16passports and credit cards there are banks and governments secrets that are that are stored there
00:19:20and and they're they use a secure element because those they want those secrets to be difficult or
00:19:26near impossible to extract and what ledger did was it says hey we could actually use that same technology
00:19:31to store the secrets of individuals so again when you think about sort of you know the sovereign
00:19:36individual and and decentralization and you think so it's interesting that the the very architecture
00:19:43of ledger and the way that it uses security is to protect the secrets of individuals um and it's
00:19:49actually using um technology that has been used to protect the secrets of banks and governments to
00:19:55protect the secrets of individuals there's something that feels important about that to me in the history
00:20:00of humanity so sorry that's why i wanted to pause on it yeah that's true and it's it's really a
00:20:05well summarized so we are using the same technology because it's a good technology but we are using
00:20:11it in a better way and the the security property we need to fulfill are similar meaning that we want
00:20:21to make sure that if ever you you lose your device it will be extremely difficult to an attacker for
00:20:27an
00:20:27attacker to extract the secret even with a lot of expertise a lot of time equipment and money so yeah
00:20:34this
00:20:34is a very important property but also when you use it uh then the use case is a little bit
00:20:40different
00:20:41from when you use your your banking card um for for different reasons one of the reason is immutability
00:20:50when you do transaction with your banking card at the end if ever something goes wrong there is uh there
00:20:57is an insurance uh there is uh you can revert transaction and so on uh with blockchain with
00:21:03decentralization uh this is not something possible uh if if you do a transaction that you didn't want
00:21:09to uh it's done there is nothing you can do to revert there is no centralized entity which allows you
00:21:16to
00:21:16get back your money and so on so this is why security is even more important uh on on our
00:21:23side so the
00:21:24three properties i was mentioning uh are the first one is you want to generate your own secrets in a
00:21:32secure manner within an enclave so what i call an enclave is a secure place where the secrets are
00:21:38generated so in our case this is the secure element inside our devices so this is the first property the
00:21:45second property is your secret must never leave the enclave in practice in practice that means that the
00:21:52cryptography must be implemented inside the enclave when you sign a transaction the computation of this
00:22:00digital signature must happen within the enclave so this is what we are doing our operating system
00:22:05is implemented inside the enclave and when you sign a transaction this signature is computed inside the
00:22:13enclave in and in our case there is a third property we want to fulfill is a way for a
00:22:21user to
00:22:22understand in a trusted manner what he is about to do he is about to consent for sending this amount
00:22:29of
00:22:29bitcoin to this specific address so this is why we have connected a screen directly to the secure element
00:22:38because you can trust your mobile you can trust your desktop if ever there is a malware which makes you
00:22:45think you are sending bitcoin to me while the malware actually send it to the attacker if you don't
00:22:52have a trusted way to verify this you will simply lose all your crypto even if your secret are secured
00:22:59inside the smart card so this is a the three properties are really at the core of everything we do
00:23:06and and
00:23:07this is our threat model basically if you don't lose uh your secret if you don't lose your backup
00:23:12and if you verify um all the time what you are doing on your device on the trusted display you
00:23:20won't
00:23:20lose your crypto this is a ledger promise so this is great now so i want to ask you um
00:23:25i want to
00:23:25anticipate sort of some of the questions from our from our users and listeners um i think it's great
00:23:31opportunity to have you here because i think you know the way i look at this is as a human
00:23:36being on
00:23:37planet earth i'm going to have important digital assets in the future right it might be my crypto
00:23:42money it might be my art collection it might be the the title to my car or the deed to
00:23:47my house and
00:23:48ultimately it will probably be my passport right so i have things that i just can't afford to lose
00:23:53so that the choices i make um on how to store them are going to be incredibly important um okay
00:23:59so i i could
00:24:00i could store them in a software wallet on my phone or on my computer in my browser why shouldn't
00:24:06i do
00:24:06that um like desktop uh smartphone these things are really good things they are they have but they
00:24:15have been designed for performance for ux for many things but not security these are not designed for
00:24:21security and as a developer if you want to create a secure app it's very difficult to uh to
00:24:30isolate the security part of your application from the rest of your your application and even more
00:24:37difficult because you are running within a browser which is running inside an operating system which is
00:24:45running on your machine and if that means if there is any vulnerability in this chain this vulnerability
00:24:51will be able to uh to be exploited to extract your secret so and and today we have built very
00:24:58complex
00:24:58system like when you have a look on on on the web like what what what is happening when you
00:25:03are clicking
00:25:03on the on twitter or or anything is very complex when you click on twitter there is if you want
00:25:11to
00:25:11understand the chain of consequences which makes you to it it's very very complex so if you want to secure
00:25:17such system it's very difficult because the system are very complex so that's why putting secret
00:25:23within your browser is or your or the software wallet in general is is a very bad idea and those
00:25:30systems are not secure because it's simply impossible to secure them they are too complex okay so dumb
00:25:35question so how is it possible that i can secure a browser wallet with ledger yeah just because what i
00:25:41explained before we are isolating the security part of uh your web 3 journey from the from the rest of
00:25:49the journey all the application uh is running on your browser in ledger live all the ux is is there
00:25:56but
00:25:57as soon as it comes to the security part everything is isolated within this hardware device which does
00:26:03only one thing securing your secret and making you aware of what you are about to consent in terms of
00:26:10uh signature your transaction and so on i think that's the that's the important bit you know and
00:26:14i want to just make sure that that people really understand that so i guess you know a software
00:26:18wallet so either a software wallet on the phone or a software wallet in your browser um it's unsecured by
00:26:24ledger separating the the security aspect of it um kind of violates all three of the of the
00:26:29security pieces right because you know the the secrets are not kept somewhere somewhere safe um
00:26:35the you know i i um the the computation is not done you know somewhere safe and i can't trust
00:26:42the
00:26:42display and i think that's a very interesting point because people talk about oh well you know
00:26:47we need software wallets to scale but the reality is is that software wallets run on hardware in all
00:26:52cases and if you don't have a trusted display then you don't have security is that accurate yeah totally
00:26:58and when when you think like adversarial thinking like you okay you you will check what what is the
00:27:04attack surface what will be the easiest way to find a way to uh to to get access to defense
00:27:11and
00:27:11if you don't have the three properties already you have you have a hole you can you can you can
00:27:16think directly to uh to to this specific thing and for the trusted display it's um it's quite easy you
00:27:23will implement a malware which makes you think that you have to uh consent for receiving an nfc
00:27:31you click on this and actually what you actually do is just sending all your wallet to something
00:27:36else okay so let's look at another type of product there are products uh in the market which you know
00:27:42say they're hardware wallets but um but they don't have a secure element um you know what i always
00:27:48say there's some people who tell me they have a competitive wallet and i always say to them okay
00:27:51cool how about this i'll trade you for 24 hours i'll borrow yours you borrow mine i'll give you my
00:27:57ledger you give me your other wallet and uh and then we'll you know we'll swap back in 24 hours
00:28:02no
00:28:03one is taking me up on that offer yet um you know but but to your point you know the
00:28:07reason there is
00:28:08because the seeds are relatively easy to extract and you know in the donjon i think it's worth saying
00:28:14you guys have cracked basically every software wallet and and you know any wallet that doesn't use
00:28:19a secure element is that true yeah yeah that's true so to your point about software wallet when
00:28:24i started to uh discuss with the dungeon uh uh asking them to uh show showcase to uh to the
00:28:32people
00:28:32that it's very easy to to break a software wallet they were like what do you want me to do
00:28:37it's it's
00:28:38obvious that software are insecure i just want to do a demo so they're like okay i will do a
00:28:44demo so
00:28:44they they did a couple of videos uh showing how to to extract and drain a wallet from a software
00:28:50wallet but they didn't get the point at first exactly i just want to make sure the audience
00:28:54understands that that that you know it's true that you know when i started in this job charles and i
00:28:59were we're trying to get the dungeon to to show how to break software wallets and they didn't want
00:29:03to do it because it's too easy to do i think that at some point you told me like this
00:29:07is the job we
00:29:08give interns on their first day uh in the dungeon so if you want to know how easy it is
00:29:14to break a
00:29:14software wallet it's so easy that our security team doesn't even want to talk about it and it's
00:29:19the job they give to interns on their first day of the job this is well said um so first
00:29:24of all what
00:29:24i want to say about hardware wallet is it's infinitely more secure than a software wallet on a hardware
00:29:31wallet if things are well implemented let's say if you don't have a physical access to the device it
00:29:37can be extremely difficult even impossible to extract uh the the funds from from the world
00:29:43this is something that we we have to say but when we want to compare ledger from other hardware
00:29:49wallets in terms of uh security physical security as you said you can swap your ledger uh against
00:29:56another wallet and you can sleep relatively well i would sleep well at least and and when just one one
00:30:03anecdotal story my uh i had a you know my my assistant who you know she was new on the
00:30:07job
00:30:08uh not that many months ago and i had left my my you know my personal nano like in a
00:30:14conference room
00:30:15or something and she texts me and and uh and she was like ian you you left your you left
00:30:19your nano i
00:30:19i've got it for you what do you want me to do with it and i said oh just put
00:30:22it on my desk which is in
00:30:23the open right i don't i don't have an office door that locks or anything she said really i said
00:30:27sure
00:30:27yeah i just leave it i'll get it tomorrow and then i came back in and again she was new
00:30:31on the job and
00:30:32learning ledger and she said to me she said the product is really secure isn't it she said you
00:30:37weren't worried at all i was like oh no i i wasn't worried i'd be i wouldn't have left like
00:30:41my air pods
00:30:42on on the desk right because the cleaning crew will come in and sweep them up right but the i
00:30:47sleep
00:30:47fine uh with with my nano so i take your point about sleeping well and i remember like two years
00:30:52ago i was in a conference and i wanted to give away a device to someone and we didn't have
00:30:58any
00:30:58device anymore so i simply gave mine i was like you just have to reset it and you have a
00:31:03device
00:31:04exactly i can yeah yeah do it well and it's so funny because it's such a key thing for people
00:31:09because the first question and it's a very natural question people ask is but wait if i lose this
00:31:13device i'm screwed right and it's like once you understand that you're not and once you understand
00:31:18in fact you know you you there could be a reason you'd want to cross a border with only the
00:31:2324
00:31:23words and not the device right you know only then do you kind of understand the power of of what
00:31:29we're
00:31:29talking about here and the implications it might have you know on the future and yeah what i wanted
00:31:34to say is what when we were building the dungeon like all this expertise around security cryptography
00:31:41and hardware security especially uh in order to um to make sure that we were building the right tool
00:31:47and so on we started to uh to study the the hardware wallet in the competition and this is when
00:31:53we
00:31:53started to break all of all of this uh hardware wallet just because they have they are built around
00:31:59general purpose mcu general purpose mcu are great for building remote controller or toaster or anything
00:32:07but they are not made for security so if you have physical access to them it can be relatively easy
00:32:13to
00:32:13extract secret from from those devices now and the criticism if you search on twitter you know a
00:32:19criticism you'll find about ledger relative to those devices also is that it's not open source
00:32:23so how do you respond to to that particular critique that that ledger is is you know is not open
00:32:28source which is not entirely true so you know but also there are parts that are not open source so
00:32:34you know how do you respond to the criticism yeah you you said it's not entirely true i i would
00:32:39say
00:32:39it's 95 percent false i think 95 of our code is uh is open source uh what is open source
00:32:46just for
00:32:47those who who think maybe somebody's like believe the bullshit that that idiots talk on twitter that
00:32:52says ledger is not open source so what is open source open source means different things but the the the
00:32:57first property of open source is that you are sharing your source code uh to to anyone to view it
00:33:04to
00:33:05verify it to audit it but also uh it depends on the license you can also provide the rights to
00:33:11others
00:33:12to use it to build product and so on but there are differences uh for for that and one of
00:33:18the criticism
00:33:18we we used to have on on this specific thing is that our operating system the one running inside the
00:33:26enclave is partly uh partly closed source and there is a reason for that uh in the smart card world
00:33:33as i
00:33:34one i was uh mentioning uh earlier when you do certification in order to get through the to go
00:33:41through this evaluation and certification you have to uh implement some uh control of who has access to
00:33:48what and and confidentiality of how your smart card is built is something important to uh to to get the
00:33:56certification that means that for the smart card manufacturer in order to get this certification
00:34:02they must prove to the auditor that the way their device is built is is quite confidential they are
00:34:10doing this for security but also to uh to to to get there to to keep their competitive advantage
00:34:17and when we are working with a secure element manufacturer in our case this is a st microelectronics we
00:34:25have to sign an nda proving them that we won't reveal any kind of information about their design and
00:34:33if we would um open source this very part of the operating system running on the on the secure element
00:34:40we would reveal uh some of the secrets uh some of their secret sauce which makes their secure element
00:34:46uh secure and we would uh we would uh we would be in breach uh of their of this nda
00:34:54so this is the
00:34:55the most reason uh the the main reason why uh this operating system is not open source so this is
00:35:01the first
00:35:01thing i wanted to say and when with because some other um wallet manufacturer for them i think about
00:35:09treezor for instance being open source is more important than anything but on my side if i have to
00:35:16find a trade-off between security and open source for me security is more important like i prefer
00:35:23having a secure device which is not completely open source rather than uh something open source
00:35:29which is not completely secure so this is do you think um 100 open source and and you know i
00:35:35i definitely
00:35:35consider you both uh you know a security maximalist and a transparency maximalist you know knowing you
00:35:40knowing you personally and so i understand the trade-off that that that you're saying there so you
00:35:44know i think that that you prefer transparency for all of the the right reasons um and which
00:35:50is why we're 95 open source and you've got that five percent which is not for the reasons that you
00:35:54said do you and and i also understand you're doing that because you're making an important trade-off and
00:35:58when you're given the trade-off you choose security do you think that it's possible to achieve the level
00:36:02of security um with 100 open source and is that something that happens over time like what's your
00:36:07opinion on where this goes if if you build your own secure element your own smart card you could you
00:36:14could uh you could uh simply uh open source your operating system first first it's very very
00:36:22difficult uh to build uh a secure element you you have industry uh which have built this expertise
00:36:29during 40 years and thousands of people and so on so it's very very difficult to to catch up uh
00:36:35this is
00:36:35the the first one but the second one is also you would like to have some uh if if you
00:36:41are quite
00:36:41maximalist in in this area but about open source and about being able to uh to make sure there is
00:36:48no back
00:36:48door uh in the device and so on because this is one of the reason why we would like open
00:36:52source
00:36:52the problem is for the for the circuit itself when you when you build your your circuit and
00:37:00in an open source manner probably the the question is okay you have your gds2 which is your source code
00:37:07for the circuit you send it to um to the ic manufacturer and you will get back a circuit how
00:37:13can you be sure
00:37:14there is no like the the match is 100 how can you be sure the circuit is the one uh
00:37:21coming from your
00:37:22source code when it's completely which when it's only software you can just uh clone the github you
00:37:29can build it on your machine and you can you can verify that the software you are running is the
00:37:34same
00:37:34that you you you have compiled when it's electronic this is not possible to do that so even if you
00:37:41are
00:37:41quite maximalist in this area and some are trying to do that and i think it's a good idea to
00:37:45try to
00:37:46build open source secure elements but even if you go far in that direction you won't have the same
00:37:52certainty that you have you with open source software interesting that's a super interesting
00:37:58topic and and you know it's important one because it's one that like i said it's one that that we
00:38:03um
00:38:03that we hear as a critique so i want to know you know why why people um you know should
00:38:08still choose
00:38:08ledger and i guess there's a couple other alternatives to ledger that i that i want to
00:38:13explore um you know you talked about software wallets software runs on hardware and increasingly
00:38:18our phones whether they're apple phones or or google phones or um samsung phones you know they do have
00:38:25secure elements in them so why is it that these things inside of our cell phones aren't basically
00:38:32like a ledger inside of my phone isn't that what it is i know what you mean but as a
00:38:37developer
00:38:37as an android developer or a iphone developer if i want to build a software wallet which would
00:38:44leverage the secure element inside the phone first of all there is there is an issue because you can't
00:38:50you can't build code within the secure element what you have is only a set of api allowing you to
00:38:58discuss with the trust zone or or the keychain uh in in the case of uh of iphone and this
00:39:05so that
00:39:06means you you can you could generate or at least store your secret within the secure element so you
00:39:12would have the first property but the problem is they don't implement like bitcoin transaction they
00:39:18don't implement um ethium smart contract interaction they don't implement this so as soon as you want to
00:39:25derive an address or um um sign a transaction what you would have to do as a software developer
00:39:34android app developer is to ask to this this um this zone or this secure element keystore to provide
00:39:42you the secret in the in the app which run in the in the rich operating system in the rich
00:39:48os and then
00:39:49compute the the the cryptography so that means that the second property is not fulfilled if you have a
00:39:54malware on your iphone or android it just has to monitor your software wallet and as soon as your
00:40:02software wallet will use your your private key the malware will be able to extract it so you don't have
00:40:08the second property and and the most difficult one so we could say maybe in the future uh android and
00:40:15ios will implement like bitcoin transaction signature in the operative system which will uh improve security
00:40:22but even if this happen you will still have the problem of a trusted display as a user as uh
00:40:30you want
00:40:31to send a 0.1 bitcoin to me so you uh you prepare your transaction in the software wallet and
00:40:38then the
00:40:39software will ask the trust the the secure element to sign it and then you will you will have a
00:40:45signed
00:40:46transaction that you you can broadcast the problem is as at the moment where the secure element is
00:40:51signing your transaction the secure element has no way to know what what you did consent so probably
00:40:58you consent for sending 0.1 bitcoin to me while the secure element is signing a transaction draining all
00:41:05your wallet to an attacker so this is the third property which is missing it's impossible to have a
00:41:10trusted display on android phone or iphone today and so i think this is incredibly interesting and i
00:41:17think this is super helpful for our listeners right because you know as a listener you're you're
00:41:21lots of people will tell you like oh we're using the secure enclave so therefore and so what you're
00:41:26doing is you're giving people you know a very practical way of looking at this you know one are your
00:41:31secrets stored somewhere which is incredibly difficult to extract two are the computations being done
00:41:37inside of a secure zone and three do you have secure display right so um if we look at you
00:41:44know in the
00:41:44case of a software wallet none of the three are met um to your point about a hardware wallet you
00:41:49you are
00:41:49you know you are segregating your um you know a competitive hardware wallet you are segregating the
00:41:55the security transactions you know somewhere that's not your computer therefore quite safe but if someone has
00:42:00physical access to the device and it's not using a secure element then it's likely possible to extract
00:42:05um those seeds or or certainly you know imaginable um in the case of you know say a phone um
00:42:12that has
00:42:13a secure thing you know secure element perhaps you have the first thing solved which is the seeds are
00:42:18are stored in a uh in a in a secure place the seed is stored in a secure place but
00:42:23since you have to remove
00:42:24that seed you know and input it basically into the clear into the operating system to make use of it
00:42:30because
00:42:30the apis of of the trust zone um etc don't you know don't don't allow for cryptographic operations
00:42:36you know therefore boom number two is broken and in any case you don't have a secure display so i
00:42:42think
00:42:42that's a super helpful framework for people to understand and i have two things to add the first
00:42:47thing is even if there is a strongbox on android which implements a secure element like strongbox is
00:42:53available and only on the last version of android and as a software wallet developer if i want to
00:43:00do a software wallet what will i do i will do a software which runs on every single android in
00:43:06the
00:43:06world so i they don't even use this strongbox capability because it's not supported on most
00:43:12phones so today software don't even use this capability which would provide the first property
00:43:17at least but they don't even use it they don't even use it so even though it might be available
00:43:22it's
00:43:22probably not used or it's not just i've never seen a software wallet which which use it and the
00:43:28second thing is like security is not an all thing this is a and thing you need the third property
00:43:34two
00:43:34is not two thirds no two is zero so so i want to i really i know and i could
00:43:40do this all day plus by
00:43:41the way i want to talk about enterprise security with you but we don't have time today so i think
00:43:44maybe we should do a separate show where we just talk about enterprise security with pleasure i can i
00:43:48tell you how we build this thing this is a long story be a good one yeah let's do that
00:43:52for for the
00:43:53for the for a proper a proper one um i think you know i'd like to i want to turn
00:43:57to stacks because
00:43:58we've just announced ledger stacks this week um and i want to talk about specifically you know the the
00:44:03challenges um uh securing ledger stacks um but before we do you know there are there are a couple
00:44:09other because there's you know there's a device that we can see that's coming that doesn't have a
00:44:12display and does have biometrics and you know i'm curious you know i'm just personally curious why
00:44:18would somebody build a hardware device that doesn't have a display so therefore no secure display
00:44:23and includes biometrics which i know from you and other colleagues at ledger you wouldn't recommend
00:44:29so can you can you just speak to you know that that design decision um this is not my design
00:44:35design
00:44:35decision so i cannot really uh explain it uh but yeah about biometrics i think biometrics is an
00:44:43interesting technology again but the problem is so when we say biometrics by the way we're talking
00:44:47about a fingerprint or face id or retinal id one of these type of things yeah for instance so the
00:44:54problem is how to use it like i think like biometric is login it's not passwords passwords are secrets
00:45:01that can be rotated it's it's simple passwords are secrets that can be rotated like biometrics you
00:45:10can change a password exactly change your biometrics biometrics are public thing like your face is public
00:45:16your fingerprint is public so it's not a secret and it can't be rotated so biometrics can be something
00:45:24interesting but it can't replace secrets very well said okay i'm putting that to memory
00:45:31okay and and what about you know the decision to have a device with no screen yeah again so the
00:45:38third property i mentioned uh earlier still old if you want to secure manage and use your assets you
00:45:45need this you need these three properties and the one you are referring to is is a different wallet with
00:45:53a different model with a different trust model and it's also a little bit less decentralized
00:45:59you you're a little bit less autonomous uh part of um because this is also something which is very
00:46:06important for us uh we we don't we don't want users to uh have to trust us we don't want
00:46:13users to need
00:46:14ledger to use their device like if tomorrow ledger is dead for any reason or disappears because there is
00:46:21a nuke in paris or i don't know if something happens you still have your device and you are still
00:46:26on your
00:46:26own you don't need us to operate to manage and to secure your crypto and you can um if you
00:46:33don't
00:46:33like our product anymore you have your backup and you can recover your backup on any other device and
00:46:40that's it it's your money it's your identity it's your valuable you can do whatever you want to do
00:46:45we just provide you with the tools allowing you to to be secure and to manage it properly and for
00:46:52if
00:46:53you are referring to a block the model is very different and you have to rely and trust a little
00:46:59bit uh their infrastructure so this is also another difference got it so in the case in the in that
00:47:04model
00:47:04if block goes away then then the user is not able to access their funds anymore yeah the funds are
00:47:12locked
00:47:12in the blockchain forever okay um all right well i i'm really like running up on time but we've got
00:47:20a
00:47:20very important topic to to finish up with here um so we launched uh or announced ledger stacks this
00:47:27week a project that the teams are working on for about 18 months now so and and really correct me
00:47:33if i'm wrong but architecturally it's the same as the ledger nano so from a security architecture
00:47:37perspective it's the same as the ledger nano and has one very key difference it's got the world's first
00:47:42curved e-ink touchscreen um so you know same uh you know so that that same chip if i'm not
00:47:48wrong that
00:47:49that powers the you know small display on the ledger nano has to has to power a much more complicated
00:47:55display and that's the that's the main thing so how did you approach that so you know tony fidel comes
00:48:00in and says we're going to make a you know an incredible you know ui on top of your security
00:48:05architecture um you know what what were the the first thoughts and how did you approach that then from
00:48:10a from a security challenge perspective yeah so uh often like security and ux this is a this is a
00:48:17cursor a cursor this is a trade-off and i when the discussion started i was like will it be
00:48:24possible
00:48:24to drive this kind of display on a secure element i was uh i was a little bit uh unsure
00:48:30uh so we
00:48:32discussed with tony we discussed with the teams in order to to study it but i remember that there has
00:48:38been
00:48:38a quite long period of uncertainty where we were not sure we didn't know if it would be possible
00:48:45eventually so we we worked on that and and finally uh we we found we found a technical way to
00:48:51solve
00:48:52this challenge also we wanted the the screen to be like as simple as possible we we didn't want to
00:48:59to
00:48:59that this screen embed like um a circuit which with a firmware which with some logic and so on in
00:49:07order
00:49:07to minimize the attack surface this was also a challenge because uh uh like some uh some screen
00:49:13embed mcu which uh with with some logic with a firmware that can be updated so we didn't want to
00:49:20to have this so there was this uh there were this kind of challenges but finally we succeeded to uh
00:49:25to
00:49:26to manage it and it it works very well and then there there was also plenty of ideas adding new
00:49:32interface uh and so on and it raised new security challenges so this is where we worked with the
00:49:39dungeon like we they we discussed about how the security architecture would would be and then we tried
00:49:47to break it this is what we did because we we do that all the time so we started with
00:49:52an architecture
00:49:53and then we iterated because we we found some weakness some vulnerabilities and this is this
00:49:59is the iterative process which allowed us to um to implement the ux uh that tony uh and you uh
00:50:06had in
00:50:07mind and without compromising with security because this is our value proposition this is what we are
00:50:12offering but again if you if your product is so secure but the ux is so poor that no one
00:50:19use it
00:50:19at the end you don't solve anything you you don't solve the problem that needs to be solved because
00:50:23no one will use it so what i think we succeeded to do is to keep the same level of
00:50:30security while
00:50:32drastically improving the ux i think probably we could do better in the in the future it's still it's
00:50:37still the challenge uh but the this iteration is is really improving drastically the ux while never
00:50:45compromising with security and i thank you i think it's like um to me it's been really beautiful to
00:50:51watch you know what i've been saying is that you know ledger has this truly uncompromising value
00:50:57system around security and self-custody and if you look at back the last seven years of the company
00:51:01there are plenty of you know there are plenty of people who wanted to say let's build a software
00:51:05wallet let's build a you know something centralized and it was always you know saying sort of you know
00:51:09no to short-term you know profits and yes to you know long-term security and self-custody um at
00:51:16the
00:51:17same time you know with tony you've got uh and tony brought with him a number of people who had
00:51:20worked
00:51:21on the ipod worked on the iphone um and are are equally uncompromising on user experience right and
00:51:27and we really i think you know it's challenged to put those two worlds together as you said it's a
00:51:30cursor that that you know has to move and we can't we can't compromise on security or self-custody and
00:51:36we've got to get as far as we can on on uh on usability i was just going to tell
00:51:41two anecdotes
00:51:42and then have you you know comment on them you know one was when you know we we have the
00:51:46screen
00:51:47uh and they you know and then they're they're giving us samples for the screen and they want
00:51:51to send a driver and i just remember i i think it was either i think it was you actually
00:51:55it could
00:51:56have been raf but i remember i think it was you because i can picture you very politely saying
00:51:59no thank you we don't need the driver and everybody went turned their head a little bit and went
00:52:04what are you talking about you know the screen company the apple guys even on our side were like
00:52:08what do you mean you don't want the driver what did you mean yeah i just meant that uh we
00:52:14we want to
00:52:15understand very well how the the screen is working and how to discuss directly with it so and this is
00:52:23implemented within the secure element so within the secure element we can talk directly uh to the
00:52:28display and understand very well what what's going on and there is no firmware no logic everything
00:52:34is damn simple and this is how you can ensure the security everything is super everything is
00:52:39there and and that's it i think in the conversation um they said what do you mean you're with driver
00:52:44and you said well who wrote it and they said well we don't really know and i said well you
00:52:49said well
00:52:49where was it written and they said china we guess and you just said no thanks i don't want it
00:52:55so we'll just simply understand how this thing work and we will drive it and and and that's the that's
00:53:01the thing i think that people need to appreciate about the space about security and about ledger
00:53:06you know we were talking to a major chip manufacturer recently you and i and um they told us you
00:53:11know
00:53:11that they're very good at security and they have many chip offerings that are secure and then they
00:53:15understood the security of ledger and they said wait you secure all the way to the display and and you
00:53:21said yes of course it's a necessity and they sort of like went wow that's secure like they hadn't really
00:53:29considered securing the display in the past and i think to me that is the thing that people need
00:53:34to understand is that we are you know entering a new a new era an era where um where digital
00:53:40assets
00:53:40are you know and digital asset security is actually very crucial to your life and then i think that they
00:53:46assume that uh maybe the you know the very smart people at at you know the the makers of the
00:53:51devices
00:53:51that we have in our hands and on our desks have have um anticipated this revolution but the reality is
00:53:57they
00:53:57they haven't at all and even the major chip manufacturers you know none of them have have
00:54:02secured all the way all the way through to the the inputs and outputs yeah but the reason why is
00:54:08like no one predicted this blockchain revolution like it's it was difficult to to understand at least like
00:54:1610 years ago of course even five years ago it was very difficult to predict that this would be a
00:54:23very
00:54:23big revolution and that every single human on the planet would use digital assets and will self
00:54:28custody this was difficult to predict now it's quite clear at least for me but yeah it's it it starts
00:54:35to
00:54:35be very clear for for everyone and when you really understand the purpose of blockchain you understand
00:54:41that self-custody is important and because of the immutability of blockchain and so on like the problem
00:54:48of security is paramount like you you you can't compromise uh security because there is uh there
00:54:54is no possibility to revert uh a mistake there was no uh possibility to revert uh an attack and so
00:55:02on
00:55:02so that's why like security is uh paramount and you can't compromise i know we need to wrap up so
00:55:07i'd like
00:55:08to to make this is really fun by the way i feel like i could go another hour as so
00:55:13many other and i think that people
00:55:14would find it really interesting so you and i should do this do this more regularly for the for
00:55:17the podcast audience the you know i had someone recently asked me an honest question they said
00:55:22you know are there any of the the competitor devices that you know you think are are interesting
00:55:27and there there are certainly some that are interesting for different reasons i don't want
00:55:29to you know dismiss things out of hand but i think sort of structurally um there are two things
00:55:34that that i don't see any anywhere else um you know one is the you know security by design
00:55:41without compromise which is really what we've discussed mostly on on on this podcast but there's
00:55:46there's one other thing that i i don't see anyone else um as advanced on as as ledger and that
00:55:51is
00:55:52actually having built an operating system on top of these secure elements um if i'm not mistaken
00:55:57you know ledger is really the only open um development environment on top of of a secure element you
00:56:04know and is that correct yeah that's correct i i would like to think that uh
00:56:10ledger success is because of security i think it's partly the case but it's also because of the
00:56:16open platform our device embeds not a monolithic firmware but an operating system so that means that
00:56:25as a developer like you have built your own blockchain your own dApp your own your own thing
00:56:31and you need security then you can simply build the the very tiny part which implements only the
00:56:38security within the enclave this is something we are providing like we have an open platform open
00:56:44operating system which enables anyone in the world to uh implement your security uh the security part of
00:56:52your application within this enclave and this is not something possible uh in anywhere in the world
00:56:58and we have the only one open operating operating system especially running on the secure element but
00:57:03also even on the harder wallet space this is also the case so and to me this feels like the
00:57:08early
00:57:08days of computing right when you know do you have a do you have a good you know it's can
00:57:12can anyone
00:57:13build on top of your platform or not right i mean if you're a monolithic system then you might have
00:57:17some interesting you know i might i might be an interesting video game council but i'm i'm not you
00:57:22know i don't i don't have the kind of openness um you know that that you would need to be
00:57:25a full computing
00:57:26system so the way i think about it is this and and i'm curious if if i have this right
00:57:31you know when
00:57:32i if i think about alternatives to ledger you know that i might choose um personally i rule them out
00:57:37because you know a they either violate one or all three of the the the kind of requirements for
00:57:43security that you that you mentioned you know that we spent the majority of the talk talking about
00:57:48or they lack that open architecture which means the cool things that come tomorrow are probably not
00:57:54going to be available there you know for for some period of time where they'll be built for ledger
00:57:58quite quickly because of the open architecture is that is that accurate yeah it's totally accurate
00:58:03and we have plenty of of people who wants to build on top of ledger and they simply do it
00:58:08uh and then we
00:58:10have a security review process and we have so much request that our security review process is not is not
00:58:16always as fast as we would like uh but yeah this is a this is how we build this uh
00:58:21overall ecosystem
00:58:21system and uh yeah you you want to build your own application you just have to write your app it's
00:58:27easy okay one last thing um ledger stacks is you know the is all the security of ledger with this
00:58:33much more beautiful display um you told us you know that that was a challenge uh to get to to
00:58:39harden
00:58:39another anecdote i was going to tell was of um you know when the dungeon you know started trying to
00:58:44break the display i could tell that that you know some of the apple engineers were like well wait a
00:58:48minute
00:58:48your guys are trying to break what we just built and the answer was yes it's you know again i
00:58:54think
00:58:54people are like you guys are serious about security aren't you it's almost always a surprise like no
00:58:58we're really serious about about security um but also you know you were talking about you know kind of
00:59:03the the positive side of getting to that ease of use and and so i'm i'm curious i know that
00:59:08you know
00:59:08since since i've joined the company and and you know ari and i are are you know are american loud
00:59:14mouths you know we we uh you know we we managed to to you know get the word out and
00:59:18in a maybe a
00:59:19a sensational way often about ledger but i'm curious you know i mean you know how to how do you
00:59:24how do
00:59:25you feel about kind of you know us becoming you know almost you know a company that's not only secure
00:59:32but also important in culture and and i'm curious for our listeners like from your perspective as a cto
00:59:38you know do you find that we're like compromising on security as we're sort of becoming you know more
00:59:43of a cultural icon or are we managing to keep it in balance i remember when when you join you
00:59:48like
00:59:49you you you were saying that your objective was to go from business to geek from business to
00:59:55to business to customer and i was like oh that's interesting and yeah i i think we are still a
01:00:01little
01:00:02bit uh business to geek because uh because our products are quite uh for techie at least and we and
01:00:08and i really think like mass adoption is something really important otherwise uh like the blockchain
01:00:15the blockchain revolution the web 3 revolution won't happen and it needs to happen it's it's important
01:00:21and in order to for this revolution to happen i think like um security is paramount uh it won't happen
01:00:29otherwise and also ease of use is definitely very important and what you what you brought is to
01:00:37to to like to to this uh to the story is like this ease of use and the cultural aspect
01:00:44of blockchain
01:00:45like uh it's not only about cryptography this is what i like but this is not about uh only about
01:00:51cryptography this is about uh different use case this is about storing something which is valuable for you and what
01:00:57is valuable for you can be art
01:00:59can be cryptocurrency can be identity can be access to to services can be it can be anything and and
01:01:08this
01:01:08is where you you are very good at seeing this thing uh on the long run thanks man i i
01:01:14love doing it we
01:01:15really have to do this again i you know i think you know this already i i tell you this
01:01:19at least once a
01:01:19month probably more often but i love working with you um i think we're a pretty a pretty great a
01:01:24pretty great
01:01:24team um so and uh i learned so so so much from you uh this is a great working with
01:01:32you as well
01:01:32no i've learned a tremendous amount from you we're both you know computer science background but you
01:01:37know different generations different applications and uh man i i feel i feel super lucky to get to continue
01:01:42to learn so so thanks for uh thanks for bearing with me i really appreciate it and thanks for being
01:01:47with us today i hope is helpful um for the audience as well and you know thanks to everything that
01:01:52that you and the team
01:01:52did to help get ledger stacks out the door i mean honestly especially in this last month um that had
01:01:57nothing to do with ftx in fact um but if you look at what we did on the ground as
01:02:02a team you know from
01:02:03firmware to ledger live to hardware you know the teams that are in asia right now like literally hand
01:02:08carrying uh back the the the devices for us to have at the event next week we're recording this the
01:02:13week before ledger open happened to come out uh the week after um but man i don't think there's any
01:02:19team in the world that could have done this except for except for this one so you know good work
01:02:23good
01:02:23work you know leading that team man thank you yeah we can be proud collectively i think all right
01:02:28thanks again thanks for doing this charles appreciate you taking the time thank you again see you
01:02:36this content is provided for informational purposes only and is the sole expression of our opinion
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01:02:46and the loss or profit is your sole responsibility stay safe
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