00:02And today we're taking a closer look at a scandal that's rocked the EU involving the
00:06Hungarian foreign minister. Over the weekend, The Washington Post reported that Peter Ciarto
00:12regularly shared sensitive information with his counterpart in Russia, Sergei Lavrov,
00:17and even called Lavrov during breaks at EU meetings to update him. Now, Ciarto initially
00:22called those reports fake news, but in comments on Monday, he admitted that he speaks regularly
00:27with his counterparts in Russia and several other countries, both before and after EU
00:32meetings. In response to all of this, the prime minister of Hungary, Viktor Orban, has accused EU
00:37officials of intercepting the foreign minister's calls and demanded an investigation into whether
00:42Ciarto's phone had been wiretapped. We'll speak to our guest about this in just a minute, but first
00:47we get more details from Eliza Herbert. Hungary's foreign minister, Peter Ciarto, has been accused
00:55of leaking sensitive EU information directly to Moscow. But while there won't immediately
01:00be a formal investigation, an EU Commission spokesperson has called the reports greatly
01:06concerning and requested clarifications.
01:09A relationship of trust between member states and between them and the institution is fundamental
01:15for the work of the EU, and we expect the Hungarian government to provide the clarifications.
01:22The allegations were reported in the Washington Post on Saturday, in an exclusive about the
01:28lengths Russia will go to to keep Prime Minister Viktor Orban in power, with upcoming parliamentary
01:34elections looming. It referenced an anonymous European official who claimed Ciarto made regular
01:39phone calls during breaks at EU meetings to provide his Russian counterpart, Sergei Lavrov,
01:45with live reports on what's been discussed, and that through such calls, every single EU meeting
01:50for years has basically had Moscow behind the table.
01:54Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk says the allegations shouldn't come as a surprise.
02:00We've had our suspicions about that for a long time. That's one reason why I take the
02:04floor only when strictly necessary and say just as much as necessary.
02:10The EU has since restricted Hungary's access to classified information. Ciarto, however, has described
02:16the report as lies and fake news. And Orban has ordered a probe into wiretapping, saying eavesdropping
02:22on a member of government is a serious attack on its nation.
02:28And for more on this story, I'm joined by Dr. Mark Roscoe-Lousteau, a fellow at the Institute
02:32for Advanced Study at Central European University. He joins us from Budapest. Thanks for being with
02:37us here on France 24. You know, a spokesperson for the European Commission made the point that
02:42the reason this is so concerning is that trust between members of the bloc is vital. So why
02:48does there appear to be such little trust between Hungary and the rest of the EU?
02:54Well, I think we can safely say on the heels of this report that unlike what we usually say,
03:02which is that Hungary is the Kremlin's biggest ally in the EU, now we can probably safely say that
03:07Hungary is the Kremlin's biggest agent in the EU. You know, for years now, Viktor Orban has basically
03:15done the bidding, not only of Sergei Lavrov, but of course of Vladimir Putin, in trying to destabilize
03:21not only unity within the EU, but also the government in Ukraine as it tries to defend itself against an
03:29unjustified and unprovoked attack by Russia. So, you know, the lack of trust, the accusations of
03:36disloyalty from EU leaders against Hungary, I think are entirely justified and are quite accurate in this
03:43case. Now, there's an election coming up in just a couple of weeks and Orban is pulling behind the
03:48opposition candidate, Peter Modyar. What effect, if any, will this scandal have on the election, do you think?
03:56Well, at his rallies, Peter Modyar, the opposition candidate, often leads chants of
04:03, which in Hungarian means Russians go home. It's the chant that Hungarian revolutionaries used
04:10in 1956 when they tried to overthrow a Soviet-installed government, a puppet government essentially,
04:18in Hungary. And now it sort of backs up the claim that Orban isn't a defender of Hungarians
04:23on the world stage, a defender of their interests, because really he takes his cues from Vladimir
04:30Putin. So certainly this scandal, this really surprising, shocking report, although Donald Tusk,
04:37of course, said it's not all that surprising, but certainly this revelation plays into one of
04:42Modyar's primary campaign narratives. Do you buy the argument that Peter Cioto is
04:47making that it's normal and fine for him to talk to his counterparts in many other countries,
04:51including Russia? Absolutely not. Russia, once again, just to reiterate, unprovoked attacked Ukraine
05:02and violated another country's sovereignty. And in those cases, certainly it's justified to try to
05:10isolate the offending country, to try to isolate the government. And certainly Russia has shown
05:17no friendliness towards the EU. It's tried at every step to undermine EU unity, especially in regards to
05:26welcoming Ukraine into the European Union as an EU member and to strengthening ties with NATO.
05:33Certainly Russia is no friend of Europe. I think that's absolutely clear. So for Peter Cioto to say
05:41that he's just having normal conversations with a foreign partner is really beyond the pale of any
05:49attempted explanation. And we really should be very skeptical. Now, the European Commission,
05:53as we heard in that report, has reportedly stopped sharing certain classified intelligence with
05:57Budapest as a result of this. How is that sustainable and how does Hungary remain a functioning member of
06:04the EU when other members are treating it as a security threat? Well, that is the question.
06:12The real question, I think, is facing Europe's leaders. What to do next? Between now and April 12th,
06:20which is when Hungary's national parliamentary elections take place, certainly it would be wise for EU leaders
06:26not to do anything at all, lest they spark even further accusations of interfering in the Hungarian national
06:34election, which is, of course, exactly what Viktor Orban wants because he's always sort of portrayed himself
06:40as the lone defender of Hungarian interests on the national stage over and against Brussels and other EU leaders.
06:49So certainly until April 12th, EU leaders should maintain a policy which they've sort of tried to
06:56to greater or lesser degrees of staying away from the Hungarian election, not commenting on it,
07:01not trying to say anything about it either way. After April 12th is another question entirely.
07:09Certainly, German Chancellor Friedrich Mertz has, in response to this revelation about
07:15Seyarto's relationship with Lavrov, as well as Viktor Orban's refusal to remove his veto to block
07:23the 90 billion euros of aid to Ukraine. Friedrich Mertz responded to both of those actions by saying
07:29there will be serious consequences if Viktor Orban remains in power after April 12th. Certainly,
07:36I think serious consequences are justified, would be legitimate, would be a form of legitimate action.
07:43Exactly what those consequences are remains to be seen. Sweden's government has floated the possibility of
07:50an Article 7 procedure to remove Hungary's voting power within the EU. Certainly, I think that would
07:57be a justified action. But again, everything will have to wait until the elections on April 12th.
08:03If Peter Mojar wins, would that basically reset the clock on the EU's relationship with Hungary, do you think?
08:11Well, absolutely not, because Peter Mojar himself is going to face a really difficult uphill battle
08:18in de-organizing the government in Hungary, de-organizing the country's critical institutions
08:25throughout Hungary. So in 16 years in power, Viktor Orban had a lot of time to basically take control of
08:33all of the critical and major institutions in the country, everything from education to the economy,
08:39to the judiciary, and even the foreign policy establishment. These are all occupied, all of
08:46these positions, all of these institutions are occupied by Orban loyalists. And so Peter Mojar,
08:53even if he wins a parliamentary majority, is going to face a really difficult task in re-establishing
09:00the rule of law, re-establishing fairness in these institutions, and trying to make certain that
09:05Orban can't keep on pulling the strings from behind the scenes, even if he's out of the prime minister's
09:12office. I want to ask you a question about the election itself. Polls show there's low public
09:17confidence in the fairness of the upcoming vote on April 12th. What are the prospects of a fair election,
09:23in your view? Well, it's certainly true that Viktor Orban has absolutely tilted the playing
09:30field. It is not an even playing field. Peter Mojar, in all independent polls, has a lead of between
09:387 to 11 percentage points. And even if he does win a significant majority of the votes, it's very
09:44possible that he will not gain a parliamentary majority or his majority will be quite small.
09:51And so, you know, it's absolutely the case that Orban has taken control of most of the major media
09:58institutions in the country. So, Mojar has, in the absence of being able to get his message out to
10:04voters via the media, he's basically taken to a grassroots approach where he's traveled the country
10:10from small towns to little hamlets to little villages, trying to meet with people face-to-face
10:16because he simply can't make any appeals over Orban's government-controlled major media outlets.
10:23Now, if at the end of the day, if Peter Mojar does win a parliamentary majority, it's quite possible
10:32that Viktor Orban will still try his best to destabilize public confidence in the outcome of
10:39the election by contesting the vote in small villages, in single-member districts that are basically,
10:46will come down to a vote of maybe hundreds between him and Peter Mojar. The difference between winning
10:53and losing will be really in the small numbers in some of these small villages. And Viktor Orban is
10:58quite possibly laying the groundwork for destabilizing the conditions in the country after the election on
11:08April 12th. Well, we'll be watching to see what happens, you know, in a few weeks there, April 12th.
11:13Dr. Mark Rusko-Lousteau, a fellow at the Institute for Advanced Study at Central European University.
11:17Thanks so much for joining us here on France 24. We appreciate it.
11:22Bye.
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