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Short filmTranscript
00:00:16Good evening everybody. You're all very welcome to the show. Hope you enjoy what happens here
00:00:20over the next hour or so. To find out who our first guest is, let me hand you over to
00:00:25our
00:00:25MC for the evening, the beautiful Fred Cook. Tommy, our next guest is Luke Lachlan.
00:00:38How are you Luke? How are you? Good now. How are you getting on? Great now, thanks for coming on.
00:00:43Good. You smell great. It's the cheap stuff, it'll wear off after a while. It's a familiar smell,
00:00:52what is it? Zara Fashionably London. Takes you back maybe, does it? Yeah, I thought it was like maybe
00:01:00Lynx Athlone or something. What do you do? What's your story? My name's Luke Lachlan. I play football for
00:01:13West Mead but I'm currently in recovery from addiction, alcohol, cocaine and gambling.
00:01:23I've kind of followed or I've documented my journey online the last couple of years and done a couple
00:01:29of podcasts and been able to help a few people live through my experiences.
00:01:39And yeah, just I suppose speaking for people that maybe haven't got a voice and I suppose I didn't
00:01:47really plan on it being like that but it's just kind of grown and I've just kind of went with
00:01:53it.
00:01:54Where did you grow up? I'm from Mullingar. I'm from Mullingar, just outside Mullingar, a small
00:02:01little place. Colmilestown is the name of the little area I'm from.
00:02:07What's the Irish for that? I hear you're asking the wrong guy.
00:02:10Really? It'll be on every signpost around the village.
00:02:12It's not even a village, it's a road genuinely. There's a lake, that's it.
00:02:16It's a road and there's a lake in it. There's a road and a lake and that's it.
00:02:20Yes. So tell us about being a teenager there.
00:02:28Yeah, I suppose. With the drinking, how old are you?
00:02:31I'm 30. Okay. So it would have been like in the 90s, is it?
00:02:37No, maybe around, I'm sober nearly five years.
00:02:42Oh, Jesus, well, okay. Yeah, so every day is a blessing type job, you know, very spiritual
00:02:51way of going about things. But I suppose I never actually met my real dad.
00:02:59And my mom remarried. My mom married her partner that she was with at the time when I was about
00:03:07two years of age. And they were together for seven years. And I have two brothers, Sean and Adam,
00:03:11and they got divorced. And now she's with her current husband, 20 something years, and another brother
00:03:17called Josh. But I suppose the only constant in all their relationships in my head was, was me like,
00:03:23and I probably, earlier on about my, the thing with my dad is I probably, that fear of rejection,
00:03:32abandonment, trust. And as a teenager, I probably found it very hard to be myself.
00:03:40And because you're always worried about what's going to happen, or is this person going to leave
00:03:45me? Or is this person going to like me? And you're so even at a young age consumed about the
00:03:50opinions of
00:03:50others. And then obviously, my release then at a young age was sport, I realized I was getting the
00:03:56kind of attention that I wanted at sport, especially for male attention. And so yeah, I suppose that's
00:04:03kind of where the, the darkness say of my addiction kind of started with those feelings for me like,
00:04:10you know? Um, is that real? Do you think that sense of, um, weakness or vulnerability or hurt?
00:04:24Is it real to connect it to the story of your dad? Do you reckon?
00:04:32Do you think, are you saying that, is it just easy for me to put onto that?
00:04:37Well, I don't know, because I'm, I'm, it's obviously a,
00:04:42we can all kind of feel vulnerable. We do at times, yeah.
00:04:45No, but with that image, you know, of a little boy, uh, and his dad is, you were two, was
00:04:54it?
00:04:55Yeah, maybe even a bit younger, maybe one. Yeah.
00:04:57Uh, I don't know. It's, it's a very moving image. It's a very, it's a, it's,
00:05:08it feels sad.
00:05:10And it, it definitely, you know, like as a 30 year old man, I can sit here and talk about
00:05:15it,
00:05:15because it does not have any bearing on me now because I've dealt with it and done
00:05:20hours and hours, hundreds of hours of therapy and have been to treatment,
00:05:25I've been to a treatment center, um, as well. Um, but like when I was in my teens, especially,
00:05:32you know, I, I longed for that. I really did that connection with that, that person, you know,
00:05:40because it'd be different if I, I only found out a little later in my childhood, you know,
00:05:45I kind of found, found out in passing almost, and then I started to question it more.
00:05:51Um, where's my dad?
00:05:52Yeah. And why is my name just Luke Lachlan? Um, whereas my brothers, you know,
00:05:58no, no, they're my brothers and they always will be. Um, but I was always just Luke Lachlan.
00:06:05Um, and I suppose, you know, even at a young age, like so in my own head, you know,
00:06:13and I think about it, like always thinking about like, why me? Or, you know, why is this happening
00:06:21to me? Or what did I do? Like, and then, you know, you're not good enough. That's the,
00:06:26that's the feeling is you're not good enough.
00:06:30They're big things for a young fella to, uh, interpret, aren't they? And navigate.
00:06:36Yeah. Um, and be minded through or something.
00:06:40And like, you know, my mom saying it genuinely, um, didn't have it easy when we were young.
00:06:48And, you know, even to this day, like, you know, I know she'd done the best she could.
00:06:53And, you know, as my addiction went on, I got older and I definitely used that to manipulate her.
00:07:01When, when did it start the, the drinking?
00:07:04Yeah. Yeah.
00:07:05Um, I suppose, uh, when I was about 14, um, you know, the usual, me friends, um,
00:07:14we'd go to the canal or whatever and get a few cans and a nagging. And I remember the first,
00:07:20like,
00:07:20obviously I wasn't an alcoholic at that point, like, you know, like I wasn't.
00:07:24But I remember the first time I drank, uh, it just, it did something to me. It gave me a
00:07:30confidence.
00:07:31It made me able to talk to girls. It, I thought I was hilarious. Like, you know,
00:07:37and do you know, the worst thing was, I was probably throwing out most of it over my shoulder.
00:07:39Like I probably, but it was that, it just made me someone else. And to be able to say that
00:07:46now,
00:07:46I probably was, I'm probably aware now that I was very uncomfortable in my own skin at a young age.
00:07:52But my first proper night out on the town, I had a lad's fake ID and went out, that was
00:07:57grand,
00:07:57a few drinks and I got into the casino and ended up, I think winning, I think,
00:08:02I think it was like 1800 or something on blackjack. And then when I'd be in work, then I'd obviously,
00:08:09I was at home and I had no bills. So I was, I'd work, um, at this big machine and
00:08:14I'd be,
00:08:14you know, coding or whatever it was, but sure, I'd be on blackjack on my phone, like 24 seven.
00:08:20I was just obsessed. Um, I just couldn't get enough of it because I obviously thought that
00:08:24I could win that money again. Um, and obviously I was way wrong and started to go out a bit
00:08:31more
00:08:31and drink a bit more. And when I went to America, gambling was illegal in New York at the time.
00:08:39So I actually went out there in my head. I thought I was going out to play football. I was
00:08:44basically
00:08:44going out to stop gambling for oil and she just replaced the gambling with alcohol and cocaine.
00:08:49And my behavior, just a joke, basically, you know, and complete self-destruct, um, self-destruct mode
00:08:57and not be able to hold down jobs. And, and like as many times as it, you know,
00:09:01I tried to give it up. It just always got me, like little did I know, like every time I,
00:09:07every time I do it, I'm ruining my life a little bit more and taking more drugs and borrow money.
00:09:15And was the coke, um, did the coke bring you to places and situations that were, um,
00:09:29a bit more destructive than just the drink would?
00:09:32Yeah. Um, I was one of these people I could go out, uh, I could go out without coke,
00:09:38but I'd always end up with it. Always. But I could go out and have a few pints and then
00:09:42sure. It always, you know, start getting drunker and you'd start thinking, oh, this is a great idea.
00:09:46Now, you know, this will keep me going. But a hundred percent, like you're not thinking right
00:09:50with it. Like it took me just too far every time. Like I, I just always ended up up like,
00:09:56you know, in that stint, I wrote off two cars, um, you know, just every time, like there was no
00:10:05let up and it always got worse, you know, and, um, I think it was. Like what? Like I want
00:10:13details.
00:10:14Um, so I used to drink drive an awful lot, which, you know, now I've a lot of guilt and
00:10:20shame over.
00:10:21And, uh, so I took a lot of people's lives into my own hands, you know, um, with that. So
00:10:27I rode off
00:10:29one of the cars, uh, on the, on the motorway near Mullingar. And you know, you'd think you'd learn
00:10:35your lesson there six weeks later. So I went and got another car and wrote another one off worse.
00:10:41And, um, ended up in the hospital, nothing wrong with me. And my mother was a nurse and she,
00:10:47the next morning I woke up and, uh, she was at the end of the bed and all these doctors
00:10:52around me.
00:10:53And she, she actually stopped the doctors and she said, nevermind this. I need you. She said,
00:10:58get out. She basically said, get out of this hospital, you know, let that bed for someone
00:11:02that needs it. She was obviously disgusted with my behavior. Like, um, there's probably people watching
00:11:07now and it's come into my head as well. I just want to mention it so that we, to figure
00:11:13out how you deal
00:11:13with it. Um, so there are say innocent people killed by drunk drivers every year. And thank God,
00:11:28nothing happened with you, you know, um, that you didn't kill anybody else. But how do you,
00:11:38how do you negotiate that thing that happened that, thank God, nothing else happened? But how do you,
00:11:49how, how do you deal with it? How do you deal with that? Yeah. So when I went to treatment,
00:11:55um, you know, my mom, she dropped me down. We probably, we hadn't talked properly now in a long
00:12:01time with a strained relationship. Uh, she said to me today before, she was like, if you don't go
00:12:05to this treatment center, she's like, we're done. She was like, I'm after doing this for 10 years
00:12:09and I have three other sons and it's just getting worse basically. And I'm just going to have to cut
00:12:14ties. And I said in passing, I'll go for a month. And she was like, you'll go for as long
00:12:19as it takes.
00:12:22Um, and I, that was something for a man to say, wasn't it? Oh, sure had to be done. It
00:12:28was the only
00:12:28thing that kind of rattled me a bit probably, you know, uh, because I always had her always,
00:12:33regardless of what went on. She'd always have my back always like, and even if we wouldn't be
00:12:38talking, she'd still somehow help me get out of whatever I was African into. And I'd have
00:12:45disrespected her to the, to the highest point, you know, and landing back to the house without even
00:12:51ask, you know, without even texting. I could be welded. It could be the middle of the day. It could
00:12:58but the day before. Just for people not from Westmeath, welded means like, oh yeah.
00:13:05Oh yeah. Worse. Worse.
00:13:11Um, and yeah, so she said that to me and she rang the GPA straight away. They had obviously known
00:13:19that I'd struggled a long time because, you know, the last few months was, it was over COVID. And, uh,
00:13:24uh, Jack Cooney, the Western manager had been trying to help me for, for months. Um, you know,
00:13:31and he, he was very good to me. He never, only for him as well, at times, you know, like
00:13:35even times I'd
00:13:36have went missing for a week or two, like he'd always bring me back training. Like I remember kind
00:13:42of going off on a tangent. It was, uh, one of the mornings I never went to train. I'd been
00:13:46up partying,
00:13:47hadn't really slept in a few days. And he asked me, I was meant to be meeting him for breakfast.
00:13:51I probably hadn't closed my eyes in two or three days. Like, you know, it was probably,
00:13:55and, uh, he just brought me for breakfast. I couldn't even make eye contact with him.
00:13:58And he just sat there and chatted and went on as if nothing was wrong. And just brought me back
00:14:04to
00:14:04the house. I remember, I think it was about a year later. I was actually, we were back training at
00:14:09Westmeath or something. And I just couldn't get that out of my head, how he could just,
00:14:15just pretend, just to make me feel a bit better. That's what he done, you know? Um,
00:14:21but yeah, so we, my ma rang the GPA, uh, they got a place sorted in Coomera at High for
00:14:27me.
00:14:29And, um, just before I went in, actually, something went off my head to write down a few workouts.
00:14:37I never thought of it. So I just got an A4 sheet and I wrote about 50 workouts on it.
00:14:41And I put it in
00:14:42the bag. I never, I never thought that that piece of paper changed my life basically, you know? Um,
00:14:48and there was a woman in there and she was a grief counselor. And she said to me,
00:14:53so she sang the meditation on Wednesday. She sang Caledonia and I was there. So you'd be sitting in a
00:14:57room with a hundred people trying to meditate for half an hour. You can imagine that. Oh, and I'd be
00:15:03like,
00:15:04how am I meant to get this head of mine to even sit still for a second? Um,
00:15:10and she started singing and I was like this, you know, I was like a bag of cats basically. And
00:15:17straight after that meditation, she came to me and she said, look,
00:15:21I just want to have a chat with you. So I went down to her office or whatever room and
00:15:26she goes,
00:15:26you're not really getting that now with this place. You're just going through the motions here.
00:15:30And then she said, another thing is I had a son who was killed by a drink driver.
00:15:36And I say a prayer for him, that man that killed my son every day because there's goodness in
00:15:41everyone. And sure. My jaw nearly hit the floor. So I went, I got up and I just went back
00:15:48to the
00:15:48room and I sat in the bed and I just burst it out crying. Probably the first time I'd cried
00:15:53like that
00:15:54in a long time of just, you know, I think it was shame and embarrassment. And you know, what I,
00:16:00it was probably the first time in a long time I'd talk about other people and what I had put
00:16:04people
00:16:05through because to say when you're in addiction, it's not just you that's affected. It's I think
00:16:09there's seven other people in fact, uh, affected by it. And I took out the sheet of paper and I
00:16:15did
00:16:15one of the workouts in between the two beds. And it took me a lot longer than it should have.
00:16:19But I suppose then, I suppose, you know, from, from that moment, I think that was like, um,
00:16:28that was the moment that changed my life.
00:16:31What, what skills did you learn to help you stay clean?
00:16:36Um, I suppose sometimes like I still like get cravings from time to time. And I just try to fast
00:16:44forward five hours. And, uh, usually when I think about where I'll be, that usually helps.
00:16:50Um, lots of different things, I suppose. I just know the life I have now, it's, it's, it's amazing,
00:16:55but it's only for today that I have it. And I just have to win that battle every day. Um,
00:17:01I suppose the most, the most important part, obviously exercise has been massive in my recovery
00:17:06and getting to play for Westmead again, which is huge, like, and something I love,
00:17:09my job as well is great. But actually serving others has helped me, um, trying to do things
00:17:16for other people without looking for anything back. Um, what about your dad?
00:17:23Um, I, I don't have, I've never met him. I think I know his name. I think I know where
00:17:30he's from.
00:17:31Um, but as I said, my mom was my mom and my dad.
00:17:36And you, and you know that you just have to ask your mom who is it and where is he?
00:17:39Yeah, 100%. And I, we've had conversations before, but as I said, it's not, it's not,
00:17:48where I am now is it's not just me now, her life as well. And I know for a fact
00:17:53that wasn't easy for
00:17:55her. Uh, you know, it's definitely not, wasn't plain sailing. And I don't really want to go
00:18:01out. So pulling up someone else's life when I'm comfortable, you know, um, she's happy and I'm happy.
00:18:11Yeah.
00:18:12Are you sure the whole thing just isn't about being from Westmead?
00:18:15Jeez, it could be. It definitely could be. You know, people ask me, um, you know,
00:18:22about when I just get into play for Westmead. So,
00:18:25I mean, you're only 30 now, is it? Yeah. So you, are you, are you still talking out?
00:18:29Yeah, it's still, it's still there. Yeah, it's great. I was dropped nine times, uh,
00:18:35from the Westmead panel and serious lack of corner forwards has kept me relevant,
00:18:39to be honest, and given me a chance. Um, but yeah, it's, look, playing for Westmead,
00:18:44you know, it has its ups and downs, let me tell you, big time.
00:18:46But it's still, it's still a high standard. It is a high standard. Yeah, definitely. Look,
00:18:51last year, not to be going on with football too much, but we lost, I think like nine games
00:18:55by a point or something like, you know, and I know winning is a habit or whatever, but, um,
00:19:02things can change quickly. Like you see, and we have a good management team there this year now.
00:19:06So hopefully, hopefully there's a, hopefully we're on the up.
00:19:11Thanks for coming on the show, Luke. Not at all. Um, delighted, as I said,
00:19:15something completely different and now we're the comfort zone, as they say.
00:19:18Um, thanks for talking to me, Phil, man. Yeah. No, that's all right. Thanks a minute.
00:19:21Good man. All right. Good man.
00:19:36Welcome back to the second half, everybody. Who's next, Freddie?
00:19:40Well, our next guest is Jesse Grimes.
00:19:50Wow. Hi. Hello there.
00:19:55Very interested to meet you. Yeah, me too.
00:20:00I, I'm not sure if your name is familiar to me or not.
00:20:03No, I don't think it is. So what do you do? We don't know each other. I'm a musician and
00:20:07a presenter.
00:20:07I'm the National Concert Hall's Discover Artist in Residence. Um, means I write and present shows
00:20:15with the National Symphony Orchestra Ireland for young people and anybody to make classical music,
00:20:21orchestral music, fun, vibrant, exciting. I've also had a 30 year relationship with this guy over here as well.
00:20:27So I work in classical music, maybe. It's a bit more complicated than that.
00:20:31What's that like? Working in classical music for, I would say 20 years.
00:20:38I moved to London in 2009. So I've been in the UK for like 16 years.
00:20:44And I, and even before that, I've been in conservatories for maybe nearly 30 years.
00:20:49What's, what's a conservatory? So like a fancy school where you learn classical music.
00:20:53You learn to make, I learned to make this instrument like behave like an extra limb.
00:20:58So I could do whatever I want. It's like being an Olympic athlete, but with micro muscles.
00:21:02So the commitment to that is colossal. Yeah. There's a lot of, um, perfectionism and
00:21:09a lot of time spent on your own. Does it suit spectrum people?
00:21:14I would, I put myself on the ADHD spectrum. I think it definitely does. Um, it suits, um,
00:21:22all sorts of weird people. Yeah. But, uh, I've, I really had a complicated relationship with
00:21:28for a really long time. I've found the perfectionism and the constant self-criticism
00:21:32because you're playing these masterpieces by dead white men, essentially for many years,
00:21:37particularly when I was learning. Um, and I started with a big kind of chip on my shoulder
00:21:41that I couldn't do it or I wasn't good enough that I was accepted into these places. I auditioned
00:21:46for not all of the conservatories in the UK thinking I wouldn't get into any and got into all of
00:21:51them.
00:21:51So I got to choose to go to the place with the scholarship and the fancy building.
00:21:55What was the attraction of it? So that happened around 18 or 19 or something.
00:21:59Yeah. So what happened when you were seven or eight that you said, that's what I want to do?
00:22:05Are you my therapist? Well, I'm very cheap. Um, do you know what I mean?
00:22:11Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, what happened when I was 10, my brother died to suicide.
00:22:16So that felt like for me, uh, a kind of an earthquake moment in my life and my little 10
00:22:22year old brain
00:22:23understood at that point, not through any fault of family or parents, but just the way kids are,
00:22:27that if you'd be brilliant, then people will love you. He was very clever, very smart, very musical,
00:22:32all these things. And there was a big, uh, funeral, a big audience, Tommy. And I saw that big audience
00:22:37at this funeral. And I thought, okay, I have to be brilliant. My little 10 year old did anyway,
00:22:42thought, okay, you just got to do everything really deadly. So I, I learned trad music. I learned classical.
00:22:47I tried to do really good at school. I was head girl. I did all those things. And, and there's
00:22:52a very clear line
00:22:53in classical music, particularly of, it's like a conveyor belt. You do all your grades, you go to do
00:22:57a degree, then you do a master's, then you do the competitions, then you blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:23:01And it was only about six years ago, I'm 39 now, where I kind of stepped off the conveyor belt
00:23:06and realized I wasn't happy, perpetually burnt out, exhausted, not creatively fulfilled. So.
00:23:15Well, um, were there any other kids? Where did you grow up? Dublin. Dublin. Were there any other kids
00:23:22in your circle who were into classical music at that age? Oh my God. No. Uh, well, then I went
00:23:31to
00:23:31the Academy. So I started at Cultus and at the Academy the same year, around age 10 as well. So
00:23:37lots
00:23:37of big changes. Yeah. So I was in school and there was nobody. No, not in school. I was, I
00:23:43definitely didn't
00:23:43fit in for many reasons in school, but I found these deep friendships in with other little music
00:23:50nerds, with my trad, trad pals or my classical pals. So that's where the connection was. Other people
00:23:56that kind of got it, that there's a, a thing that you don't need words for and you can connect
00:24:01and play
00:24:02for hours and not, you don't have to talk about it. Yeah. You mentioned about not fitting in,
00:24:09in loads of different ways. Yeah. What did you mean by that? Well, I think the more I learned to
00:24:15be in my
00:24:16own skin, the more I realise how weird I am, which is fun. And maybe I'm understanding things that didn't
00:24:23quite work in like the mid 2000s in a secondary school in Ireland. I thought I was gay. That was,
00:24:29you know, you think how far we've come in Ireland now, but like the word gay was like,
00:24:37meaning shit or bad or crap. Yeah. I think on learning recently, I've got ADHD, which explains
00:24:44the fizz in my brain a little bit and maybe why things I found hard that other people didn't. So
00:24:50it made me feel like I was a bit weird or a bit stupid, but actually it's just my brain
00:24:54works in
00:24:55a different way, which is now the superpower that I have to be able to do the work that I
00:24:58do now.
00:24:58Yeah. It took a long time. I kind of was kind of meandering in and out all the way through
00:25:03to
00:25:03university and then was like, Oh, you're just queer. So I'm with a trans person now, married to a trans
00:25:09person. And it just, that's just, it's, it's so obvious to me now. And I look back at poor little
00:25:16me
00:25:16who's writing in journals about trying to figure it all out. So what's obvious to you? That I'm just not
00:25:23a heterosexual human being. And I lived in a heterosexual world, particularly Dublin at that
00:25:28time. Um, and that just, it's so obvious now that it's like, it's almost, not boring, but it's, uh,
00:25:35yeah, it's, there's a clarity to like, well, that's clear. Um, and your spouse, spouse. Yeah. Are you,
00:25:43are you militant with language? No, I f*** up all the time, but it's about the intention, isn't it?
00:25:49Okay. Your partner or whatever is a trans? It, uh, is non-binary. So I would say trans,
00:25:57oh, I don't have to do the semantics lesson. Like I would say trans within an umbrella. So Brogan
00:26:01is non-binary. So they use they, them pronouns. Yeah. And I'm just, I'm, I'm very curious. Yeah. Um,
00:26:13was, had it operation or? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Just have changed their name and their
00:26:19pronoun and living more in a, in a mask presenting way, but presenting as I'm very confused. Well,
00:26:26Brogan's just a, Brogan. Yeah. Brogan is a, they're like, I'm just like a weird little blue alien.
00:26:31They're like, sit right in the middle. They don't feel particularly male or particularly female.
00:26:35They just feel like Brogan. So if I said, so, so is it strange if I say to you, well,
00:26:40is Brogan a man or a woman? Is that a, is that a, is that a, well, if you were
00:26:43my nephews,
00:26:43we'd say both, they'd say, it's, it's Brogan, is you a boy or a girl? And Brogan will say,
00:26:49kind of a bit of both, but a half and half. And it depends what, like, if you go to
00:26:54indigenous
00:26:55cultures all over the world, people are like, got you, totally spirit, obvious. But in our,
00:27:00in our culture to be somewhere other than binary is, uh, weird and confusing and also interesting.
00:27:06Yeah. Yeah. That's a good, so, so it's something that refuses to be pinned down. Yeah. Yeah. So
00:27:12there's no, I, so it's kind of like, no, you're not getting your handy little definition and you're
00:27:16not, I'm not making it easy for you to imagine somebody who was born a man, but now presents as
00:27:23a woman. No, no, this is just, it's much more. It's I am me. A challenge. Wow. Yeah. I asked
00:27:30my
00:27:30nephew once what you want to be when you grow up, which is a stupid question to ask a kid.
00:27:33And he said,
00:27:33myself, and it's a bit like that with Brogan. It's just Brogan is Brogan. Are you easy to live with?
00:27:41Hmm. I'm getting better. I think I'm, uh, I'm constantly on a quest to be a kinder, nicer human.
00:27:51Are you hypersensitive? Brogan is. I don't think I am. No, probably in bits. If you tell me I did
00:27:59that
00:27:59wrong, I'd still, that's post-conservatory trauma is still there. Do you get angry? Like what's your,
00:28:05um, uh, in terms of emotional regulation, where does the ADHD thing, where do you suffer in that?
00:28:18Uh, do I get angry? I don't really get angry. I get overwhelmed. I can get to a point. And
00:28:25this is,
00:28:25I think why we ended up changing our whole lives. I can get to a point where I can't make
00:28:30any decisions
00:28:30anymore. Like decision fatigue. And that's what, that was one of the reasons Brogan had been
00:28:36chronically ill for a couple of years. We'd had some failed IVF. It was like a, a mountain of things
00:28:41that boiled up to a point where every month or six weeks I was getting burnt out, which I understood
00:28:46just as, oh, that's burnout. Cause that's what we're in this grind economy. And that's what I was doing,
00:28:50but probably now understanding my brain a bit more, it was just overstimulation and needing to
00:28:55find a slower pace. Um, and in terms of the IVF, uh, who is, who was trying to have the
00:29:04baby?
00:29:05This guy. With Brogan's eggs. This guy. Yeah. That's fantastic. With your partner's eggs. Yeah.
00:29:14Yeah. Yeah. And my magic brother had donated, but it all was a disaster and went to shit. Brogan got
00:29:20really unwell. Uh, no, it didn't work. We did two rounds. It was awful. They got, they had chronic
00:29:27chest infections, misdiagnosed asthma, terrible two years of them being prone on a sofa. Um,
00:29:35and I was trying to do IVF and get eggs out of their poor broken body. And it just was
00:29:39an awful
00:29:40experience and didn't work well. Um, so we shelved it, went to Costa Rica and Nicaragua for six weeks and
00:29:49realized we needed to do everything a bit differently. So it's still the plan. Not that
00:29:54plan, but sperm donor. Oh, you've got enough kids. I wouldn't ask you. It'd be an ADHD nightmare.
00:30:00We'd be guaranteeing the child a spectrum life. There are blessings, Tommy, as you know,
00:30:06um, I'm in the market, I suppose for, uh, for a donor and we'll try again. We're building our little
00:30:12house now in Suffolk. And when that's done, we'll try again to fill it with some, some babies somehow.
00:30:17So the idea of being pregnant and, and giving birth and all that is, is what to you?
00:30:22My mother speaks very beautifully and positively about pregnancy and breastfeeding. So I think I
00:30:27grew up with that, a lovely, um, even though she had terrible experience and she lost a baby before me
00:30:33and as you know, it wasn't plain sailing, but there's a lovely energy around it to me. And it's just
00:30:39something, I just think we have like a split second on this planet and that I have this capacity to
00:30:46create
00:30:46human life just feels like an incredible thing that I want to try and do. So you're using
00:30:53Brogan's eggs? No, that's all out the window. No, but you, you, you had been. Yeah. And who was,
00:30:57where was the sperm coming from? My brother had donated, do the maths, you can do it. It's not incest.
00:31:03Your brother's sperm. Yeah. So your brother's sperm. It would be like my brother and my partner's baby,
00:31:09but I was the oven. But it didn't work out. That has to be an easier way. Yeah, it's beautiful
00:31:14because
00:31:14you'd have genetic grandparents. What would you have? Genetic grandparents on both sides.
00:31:20So the child, what I squeezed out. Yeah. The parents. Yeah. The grandparents would be, Brogan's parents
00:31:28would be the grandparents and my parents would be the grandparents. It's like the only magic way that
00:31:31two women could do it. Okay. Wow. But it's in the, it's in the bin anyway and it's a bit
00:31:35complicated.
00:31:37Your dad's your uncle. Well, couldn't bring it up in Dublin, could I? Well, there are probably places where
00:31:42it's, it's, um, not unusual. Yeah, but it's, I, it's very, it's a, anyway, that plan's in the bin anyway.
00:31:50But what a gorgeous human my brother is to have donated at all. Um, but we have to go, we're
00:31:55thinking
00:31:55like, you know, some sort of hippie stone circle. In some way, some man will just appear and donate.
00:32:02I'd say so. We've tried. Um, I'm only 39. So tell me about the instrument and
00:32:12yeah. It's a funny, complicated relationship now, I suppose. I've played it for nearly 30 years.
00:32:19Uh, and I love it. And I also have had such, it's, it's been, it's associated with stress as well.
00:32:29And that high performance, uh, thing. I got to a point before COVID where I was on trial,
00:32:38um, for an orchestra and I got a phone call to do Rhapsody in Blue, which would have been the
00:32:43thing
00:32:43that would win the job. You'd get, you'd get the job. And I turned it down instinctively saying,
00:32:48oh, I'm working with special needs kids in Derby that week. Sorry. And then I had to have a talk
00:32:53to
00:32:53myself. I'm like, what did you just do? That's the chance to get the job. The thing, the most coveted
00:32:58thing that any, certainly orchestral musician wants. And I had instinctively turned it down. And then I sat
00:33:03with myself for a while and I was like, you don't want a job. You want to do other stuff.
00:33:08So I'm now
00:33:08more, we're friends again, I think, because I don't do it all the time. I do this presenting and this
00:33:14creative stuff. So I'm becoming friends with this and I'm, and I'm gently learning trad. I grew up
00:33:20playing for the flute and the whistle and there was such freedom roar in sessions. Um, and when I went
00:33:26to
00:33:26London, I just didn't have the bravery to, um, to join sessions. So I didn't play for 15 years, but
00:33:31I'm
00:33:31slowly, quietly at home trying to knock a few jigs and reels out of this now instead. What are you
00:33:35going to play? I'm going to play, um, a thing that I, cause I'm also a workshop leader. I'll play
00:33:40like, if this is a bit of a introduction to me thing, so I'll play a bit of Mozart and
00:33:45then a bit of trad.
00:33:47Would you be comfortable singing a drone for me? If I, if I play, you know, you know, I can't
00:33:51sing like,
00:33:51it's a medical, I'll fucking try, but I really, don't give me a note.
00:34:08That's there. He's got it. I'll help you out in the middle of it. What do you want me to
00:34:15do?
00:34:15Do that all the time with my mouth open? No, I'll tell you what to do. Don't worry. So we're
00:34:19going to,
00:34:20this is what I do. Tommy, this is what I do in a care home, Tommy. No, uh, all right,
00:34:25Mr. Tiernan.
00:34:28Do you know why I do this? It's because I love playing with other people and I find a solo
00:34:32one
00:34:32line instrument is a bit sad. Um, so I'll ask you to join me and if it's shite, we can
00:34:36all laugh at you
00:34:37and not at me. Um, anyway. What exactly do you want me to do? I'm going to tell you in
00:34:41the moment,
00:34:41you just chill out. It's not possible. Um, and you're going to point at me and I'm to do what?
00:34:47Am I to do that kind of nursing home noise? Take a breath in. Take a breath out.
00:34:52Oh, you got me. Okay. All right, here we go. God help us.
00:35:14All right.
00:35:21I'm going to 10.
00:35:26Oh, you got me.
00:35:42PIANO PLAYS
00:36:06PIANO PLAYS
00:36:46PIANO PLAYS
00:37:32PIANO PLAYS
00:37:34PIANO PLAYS
00:37:35PIANO PLAYS
00:37:35PIANO PLAYS
00:37:35PIANO PLAYS
00:37:40PIANO PLAYS
00:37:48No question
00:38:01PIANO PLAYS
00:38:06but then there's a connection yeah it's also but your vagus nerve when we sing is stimulated so
00:38:12there's like a rest and digest calm feeling i love getting people to join because it feels better in
00:38:19your body i think um where can people experience your work i suppose both with the workshop stuff
00:38:27and the your own playing the national concert hall is the main thing i am artist in residence
00:38:33there for a discover there's also going to be an amazing discover center that's been built by the
00:38:38end of 26 a big develop redevelopment at the concert hall but the first thing that's happening
00:38:42is this discover center so we're going to have more and more stuff happening there it's going to be
00:38:47like a massive cultural center for people to come i i do stuff with the national symphony orchestra
00:38:53ireland every couple of months um check out the nsoi and i'll be there there's usually a massive
00:39:02poster of my face on the console as well much to my father's embarrassment good enough for him yeah
00:39:07jesse thank you very much for coming on the show and talking to me
00:39:10lovely to meet you thank you
00:39:26welcome back to the third half everybody freddy who's next tommy our next guest is mark little
00:39:39great pleasure great to meet you great to meet you now
00:39:45how are you now so the last i heard of you uh was that you had set up a
00:39:57was it a news business company or something like that
00:40:01yeah so i have my first parish of rte for here for about 16 years that's a very sexy barry
00:40:07white voice
00:40:07you have tempered by much uh yeah what did you what did you do in rte with news so i
00:40:15was the first
00:40:15washington correspondent i was a prime time anchor with miriam mccallaghan with that voice with this
00:40:20voice um and i remember gabe burn actually first time i met gabe burn at late show he turned to
00:40:25me
00:40:25only words he said to me were do you smoke i did at the time yeah i could hear it
00:40:29so that was my
00:40:30great voice well that was what i did with the voice and then i went on to form a company
00:40:35called
00:40:35storyful back in 2009 and that was trying to make sense of all the social media noise verify
00:40:40what people should listen to and pay attention to work for twitter i had a second startup with my
00:40:46friend on your care and we sold that to spotify so i walked the earth as a sort of a
00:40:50startup
00:40:50tech entrepreneur and finished that up last year and now i've been looking an awful lot of trying to
00:40:56listen a lot more and try to work out what's going to happen next because things are happening so fast
00:41:01i think i feel like we're all like wiley coyote we've gone off the edge of a cliff and we
00:41:06don't quite
00:41:07know yet that that technology is about to change every aspect of what's could you talk me through the
00:41:13different phases of your work so when you landed here in rte um what did you do like and and
00:41:24and
00:41:24how did you do it so back then this was in the days of charlie ahi this was in the
00:41:30days
00:41:30before the celtic tiger so that was at the turning point and so i was very much sort of taken
00:41:37by the
00:41:37idea that we were telling stories about in ireland at that time which was really in flux
00:41:42the idea of being able to tell that story so i would have been lucky enough to report on the
00:41:47ceasefire in belfast to be on the streets at midnight the night of the ceasefire to be listening
00:41:53to people who weren't celebrating you know former republican prisoners yeah and to be given the
00:41:58privilege of telling that story and of as you listen you realize it's a completely different story
00:42:04than the one you expected and then having that obligation then to pass on some piece of information some
00:42:10image that might change someone's mind that was a tremendous sense of if i'm honest and also being
00:42:16egotistical a little bit yeah power and the idea of spending the rest of your life doing that
00:42:26when did that become quite unattractive so i was heading off to a place called ramadi in 2007
00:42:32and it was to go and visit a combat outpost marines and it was the most dangerous place on
00:42:38the planet at that time i was traveling on a thursday i went skiing with my mates the previous
00:42:42weekend and i broke my leg so i was brought back from italy on the catering side of the plane
00:42:48spent three four weeks feeling very sorry for myself and something happened at that moment
00:42:53i had a sense of my own mortality i had a sense that if i was going to go to
00:42:58this place iraq
00:43:00that could have been a door through which there was no return okay i had many friends who were already
00:43:04setting their sights was very close with i had lost a few people that i knew and i knew that
00:43:09was going
00:43:10to be the door i walked through and with this ski accident here i was inside of a ski slope
00:43:15in italy
00:43:16lying up in the blizzard thinking about my death and that was the first time that ever happened i
00:43:21never felt in any way mortal before that moment and that changed everything that just how old were
00:43:26you then i was 38 at that stage i think yeah 38 and that drove me to jump into a
00:43:33business uh where on
00:43:34the first day i had no idea what i was doing i was writing business plans with permanent marker and
00:43:39a
00:43:39whiteboard completely unprepared can you tell me about that that the transition and what the idea was and
00:43:44what you did just before you got the idea like how was the whole time like there was a it
00:43:48was a week
00:43:49i remember there was a protest in iran the green revolution people going against this uh
00:43:53i'm a dinner jazz election and there was twitter was everywhere the entire thing was told through
00:43:58social media and i was at home in dublin the following week on a wedding uh in the west of
00:44:03ireland and
00:44:04we go over to the bar and all the people under 25 or 30 are telling us michael jackson just
00:44:08died
00:44:08and we were on dancing on the floor with my mom remember before he was officially confirmed dead by
00:44:15the los angeles times and i thought to myself wow everybody in the world now can tell a story
00:44:20but who do you listen to to give you the reality and that was the mission statement for story from
00:44:27that kind of began the journey that became that first company and the idea was that
00:44:35it's almost like i get the sense of it's like looking at twitter and kind of going
00:44:40there needs to be a way of getting good information onto this platform yeah so we would say for
00:44:45example we saw one day two tanks coming down a road outside a place called aleppo and we saw the
00:44:52tank getting blown up and we also found out that we also had a video on youtube of the guy
00:44:57who fired
00:44:57the weapon the rocket propelled grenade and so we could piece together the two things by looking at
00:45:03the sunlight on the minaret see what time of day it might be to match the times find a bit
00:45:08more about
00:45:09the youtube account that had the the guy with the rpg and the youtube account the people on the tank
00:45:14and i'd never seen it like this this was like war from two sides in the very same split screen
00:45:21and here i was realizing that it changed everything about the way that we witness the world and it
00:45:28was all being made up at the time from a tiny office by the liffey uh we'd be on to
00:45:33people in california
00:45:34telling them the reality as it was unfolding and then before i know it we had every news
00:45:40organization in the world we're using us as their sort of primary verification service
00:45:45to the point where you know you essentially could find the video that defined the story
00:45:51clear it up verify it and then pass it on to people who could put it on air with total
00:45:56confidence
00:45:58can you tell me a bit more about then what happened to a story for what happened to that organization
00:46:03so we got to a point where as a business we came to the attention of rupert murdoch and we
00:46:07were bought
00:46:07by rupert murdoch so i went to new york and lived there and worked for murdoch inside a very strange
00:46:13couple
00:46:13years which was exactly like succession was it exciting uh working for murdoch it was like being
00:46:20on a rocket ship like it was it was really was high potency stuff but it was vicious it was
00:46:26tough
00:46:27i remember sitting in a meeting once in newscorp where a person was walking the door to conduct
00:46:32the meeting and i was told well she's just been fired she doesn't know it but we all do so
00:46:36there was
00:46:36a certain sense of you're at the height of this sort of macho yeah testosterone yeah i know
00:46:42kill or be killed type of thing oh yeah but with that i suddenly looked at my next 10 years
00:46:47and
00:46:47went shit i have to keep this pace up and do all of this and keep ahead of everybody else
00:46:53in this
00:46:53competitive environment it was like swimming with sharks so yeah for me the the thing to do was to
00:46:58go back and then i went back to ireland so then tell me so you're working for murdoch and then
00:47:05what
00:47:05happened so then i basically get a contacted by twitter and they were hiring someone to help their media
00:47:11department in europe so the job was in dublin so it happened that the international headquarters for
00:47:16twitter is in dublin okay so i came back and and got a job there and but it was a
00:47:20tough time because
00:47:21that was the looking back in it now that's the time when twitter went from being really open
00:47:26collaborative you found your authentic weird community to connect with new people new ideas
00:47:31and the algorithm comes in at about 2015 that's about the time that i joined and that's when they start
00:47:38pushing the stuff that they're sitting on your shoulder watching it was a really tough time for
00:47:43twitter as well the algorithm seemed like a good idea because well it's sorting out the news from
00:47:49the noise like on twitter i think on youtube at that time there was 500 hours of youtube video uploaded
00:47:54every single minute so the curators like the storyful people could only handle so much and the algorithm
00:48:01was there to sort out and break up what you should see based on your personal interests so it started
00:48:06as a
00:48:07good thing helping you from going from sucking on this fire hose of content to working at what you
00:48:12really wanted to see or what needed to see but then it started taking over because the advertising
00:48:19the advertising is there to make you feel like these all this content now has to make you feel happy
00:48:24sad
00:48:24outraged because that's the way you buy things from people who advertise online and that's when social
00:48:30media made that dramatic jump from being a place of openness and collaboration to just being driven
00:48:39by the need to sell you things revenue total no that was all about that and as a consequence in
00:48:45twitter
00:48:46every decision became about money and i suddenly realized i was kind of working for an empire
00:48:51everything's been tabloid as well every even on ordinary newspaper websites it's all about
00:49:00how can we get your attention as opposed to before you'd buy a newspaper and you'd had the thing bought
00:49:05yeah and then you'd kind of leaf through it going well not so much or yeah i'll read this or
00:49:11whatever
00:49:11but now it's just it's so
00:49:15it just cheapens everything so you've had enough for twitter then what
00:49:21so then i have this idea well if this algorithm is screwing everybody up can we reverse it
00:49:26could we actually build an app that would allow tommy to come along and say i really want you
00:49:31know trad music and comedy or whatever politics and i want exactly what i want and i'm going to be
00:49:37in naked women cooking cooking or naked women cooking no no no no no no no it's naked women
00:49:43cooking roast potatoes not even a roast beef no roast potatoes um and they're all very kind and
00:49:52old women okay so it's not an arousal thing it's more just safety
00:50:02see what i can't get over is just the potatoes that's the thing because spuds and old women
00:50:06represent safety to me okay that's right anyway so reversing the algorithm so i would have actually
00:50:12that would be a great one to build in fact go and see if we could do that now for
00:50:15you and i'll
00:50:15send it to you later on this is what we made earlier yeah um so yeah we wanted this idea
00:50:19to
00:50:19get this new at the time this new ai they were called transformers these are magical new inventions
00:50:25that have now become what we have at open ai to basically allow you to pick what you wanted to
00:50:29see be conscious be intentional if you wanted to see you know more nudey girls doing roast potatoes
00:50:37you could see that but you could also it's really important because this will get sliced older
00:50:41very old got it
00:50:45let's go on record could you look at the camera and just say that i want to emphasize this
00:50:51i would like a website where i can go to where there are four or five very elderly naked kind
00:50:58women
00:50:59cooking roast potatoes this is going to be a netflix series by the way very soon you know that
00:51:05naked and satisfied
00:51:08we went on anyway we decided to try to build this myself and anya care was my business partner and
00:51:14along the lines we found actually that we could use this artificial intelligence
00:51:18for the negative purpose to find a really really seriously bad content that was out there and so we
00:51:23start working with spotify to look into their hours-long podcasts to see where we could
00:51:29see something that was truly dangerous and our algorithms with a bunch of small
00:51:33team of journalists who were native to those languages
00:51:37who could tell the kind of music that isis might use to recruit
00:51:40young people on spotify playlists
00:51:44that was the kind of level that we could get into and the algorithm
00:51:47was starting to come and say to us oh we found this this is what you're looking for
00:51:51right and say yeah i also found this over here and so this golden feedback loop with the algorithm
00:51:57we could start to build out a picture your issue then is not with algorithms in themselves it's
00:52:05what they're being used for is that right yeah and this is where we get into the the two different
00:52:10futures that we face right on the one hand the algorithm itself this now artificial intelligence
00:52:17itself has the capacity to be augmenting us intelligence you know think about nurses being
00:52:22able to help out more directly in the health service or the ability to run the trial and error on
00:52:28the new
00:52:28drug much quicker than in the past or the ability to make sure that we can actually have more
00:52:33environmentally friendly food production the ai has the capacity to do all of that but meanwhile
00:52:40the big capitalist corporations in silicon valley are using it to trap people in chat bots
00:52:46um so keep them coming back to the chat bot every day so we do have these two alternative realities
00:52:54of ai as
00:52:55a potential for human flourishing for the augmentation of human intelligence but over here the people
00:53:01making the money from it and making the big investments have a very narrow application of the technology there's
00:53:07a difference between augmenting our intelligence and expanding our lives and doing us harm though isn't there yeah so
00:53:15there's no limits for example on safety or guard rails we we don't know how these uh these ai are
00:53:22being
00:53:22trained they're being controlled in the background by a small group of engineers i mean the number of
00:53:27people who know what's going on inside the black box where all the data goes and all the the system
00:53:33prompts as they call them maybe a couple hundred people in the world know what's going on inside that
00:53:38and and that's essentially where we have the problem because if a tiny elite are controlling how this
00:53:44all works and keeping it to themselves then there's no way we get that brighter future of flourishing
00:53:51because it's all in the hands of a tiny group in silicon valley and social media was a warning
00:53:58because what the people in silicon valley are telling us is trust us and i think what i'm starting
00:54:03to detect is an awful lot of people feeling like no it's time to be intentional it's time to see
00:54:08what's going on in the world with technology right now as both a positive and a negative and to feel
00:54:15we have some lever to push us toward a positive outcome now that could be leaving the social media
00:54:21platform that you hate to find a group or a newsletter or a podcast or somebody who's creating some goodness
00:54:28in the world and follow them and support them for me it's i'm starting to see that kind of movement
00:54:35within the younger generation the people who are native to social media who are starting to move
00:54:41with their feet they're starting to seek out real world experiences they appreciate the digital part
00:54:48of their life but they're not letting it dominate and so what i'm seeing right now is is the beginnings
00:54:53of what i feel is kind of a digital civil rights push that feels now real in the lives of
00:55:00these younger
00:55:00people and i'd like to think that those who are older who still have some sense of optimism because
00:55:08i see my kids i see them deciding to take polaroid photographs instead of taking their cameras out
00:55:14they usually did and posting on instagram more records lps were sold in ireland last year i think than
00:55:20since the last century right people coming in and investing in a certain nostalgia for a heritage that
00:55:27has no baggage for it the rise of of this incredible cultural wave ireland's going through right
00:55:32now this is coming from people that were born into an environment where digital was everything
00:55:39so our our agency is intention yeah and that's our lifeboat that's how we go from the flood of
00:55:45as they call it slop that's the term to a human internet that may be much smaller yeah may resemble
00:55:52a lot more like villages around a bigger community and that's already happening and i think people
00:55:57if if you ask them they'll say well my whatsapp my my chat my chat groups are where i get
00:56:02all my
00:56:02information um and i no longer have the vertical trust of looking up to the priest or the bank or
00:56:08the
00:56:08journalist i trust the people around me that i've got in my circles and it's a really interesting
00:56:14decentralization of power back to people with intention but also to trust the feeling that you get
00:56:21when you're being fed an endless loop of kind of weaker and weaker content to trust the body when it
00:56:31kind of goes i don't feel good yeah after this you know um you know by stripping it away sometimes
00:56:38in
00:56:38the silence like i spent a lot of my time not listening you know i pitched things i was the
00:56:43storyteller
00:56:43jazz hands guy and this last year you know sitting with school teachers recently thinking about the
00:56:50burden on them or you know talking to all my friends my kids friends and listening and being curious you
00:56:56know i think that's been for me in the advanced stage of my career my life uh this year has
00:57:02been
00:57:02something different um yeah it's been been something special just to sit down and not try to pitch
00:57:09anything to anybody or sell something in a corporation but just sit with the knowledge that
00:57:14things are changing be open to the surprise of listening and what might happen rather than trying
00:57:19to put a shape on it yeah totally yeah also silence like that just inspiration idea like i'm always
00:57:24taken by sam beckett you know he'd follow his dial up into the mountains and the um iambic pentameter
00:57:31that's shed this silence between the footsteps um there's something beautiful about that i think
00:57:37as you get later in life i think you start to appreciate that when you see it around you and
00:57:41start to emerge uh almost by osmosis from this next generation so watch this space i think
00:57:59are you thinking about the roast potatoes no you just spoiled it i was creating a bit of silence there
00:58:04for everybody to enjoy but you big pervert you came in and you ruined it mark it's been a pleasure
00:58:13thank you very much thank you coming on and cheers and now ladies and gentlemen all the way from
00:58:20california and scotland it's a band called doug performing have at it which is the title track
00:58:27from their latest album i'm gonna wash my hands of this world i'm gonna join the band of the birds
00:58:44and i will scrub until they bleed and my blood will stain the earth when i wash my hands of
00:58:52this world
00:58:55won't you lend me a dollar for the fair i know heaven is a long way from here
00:59:04and all my money has been spent on katerine and beer won't you lend me a dollar for the fair
00:59:31and i'm gonna scrub myself up before i go where are you going i'm gonna take this elevator to the
00:59:39final four and everyone will see who's that god damn that man was a catch i'm gonna scrub myself up
00:59:47before i go where i go see my will's been signed sealed and written what's it say it's just three
00:59:56simple
00:59:57words how about it to my love i leave behind these breadcrumbs and dimes cause my will's been written
01:00:06it's just three simple words how about it to my love i leave behind these breadcrumbs and dimes
01:00:28and i'm sure you'll come and join us too
01:00:31and i promise dear there's plenty here to do see the bars they never close
01:00:39and the guards and the guards they're all on yokes well one day i'm sure you'll come and join us
01:00:45too
01:00:47and it's a never-ending party in the sky in the sky everybody up here is looking for the right
01:00:55well there you're man your dad your grand i'm taking turns with uncle sam it's a never-ending party in
01:01:03the sky
01:01:04and i'm gonna wash my hands of this world
01:01:28and i'm gonna join the band of the birds
01:01:33and i was probably knew they'd bleed and my blood was pain in the earth when i wash my hands
01:01:40of
01:01:40this world
01:01:45uh
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