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00:00This program contains references to suicide and vision of surgical procedures.
00:21I remember seeing younger girls in the waiting room.
00:24There was one young girl in particular.
00:26I didn't want him to fuck up her life too.
00:34Dr Simon Gordon sold himself as a top gynaecologist for endometriosis.
00:41I trusted Simon Gordon with my body.
00:44He took my finances and my trust in the system.
00:48Once the busiest laparoscopic surgeon at Melbourne's Epworth Private Hospital,
00:54Dr Gordon was notorious amongst his colleagues for performing aggressive surgeries on young women.
01:01There was no endometriosis found in the pathology report.
01:05I was shocked.
01:06I felt so violated.
01:08Simon Gordon has destroyed my life.
01:13It has completely changed from what it should have been at this time.
01:21Patients had tissue and reproductive organs taken out.
01:26The question is why.
01:29I had both my ovaries and my uterus removed by Simon Gordon by the time I was 25.
01:37Dr Gordon has been gynaecology's open secret.
01:40The medical regulator and management had been informed about him many times.
01:47I want them to understand that they could have put a stop to this so much earlier.
01:52I'm not sure I've seen a more distressing series of allegations about care.
01:58After a seven-month Four Corners investigation, doctors are speaking out for the first time.
02:05I hope this will be a changing point for us in medicine where we do not blame the people that
02:12speak up.
02:12Why do you think this hasn't come out?
02:14I think most of us are scared.
02:17We've shared women's medical records with leading gynaecologists
02:22who were shocked by what they believe is unnecessary surgery.
02:27In this episode of Four Corners, we investigate a top Melbourne surgeon
02:32who repeatedly removed healthy tissue and organs from young women
02:38at Victoria's largest private hospital.
02:41Why didn't multiple complaints to the hospital and regulators stop him?
02:47And what lessons can be learned to prevent this from happening in the future?
03:03So we'll just start off for a bit.
03:05Almost like jump into that whole cross.
03:10Beautiful.
03:11And again.
03:13Mary Spanos refuses to be a victim.
03:17She's fighting back.
03:19I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I didn't come forward
03:23to try and prevent this from happening to other people.
03:26Mary was diagnosed with endometriosis,
03:30a disease affecting about one in seven Australian women,
03:34where cells similar to the lining of the uterus
03:38typically grow in other parts of a woman's pelvis,
03:42causing extreme pain and, in many women, infertility.
03:47Her first surgery was with another gynaecologist
03:51and she had superficial endometriosis at that point.
03:56But the surgery didn't make the pain
03:59that Mary had suffered for years go away.
04:02And in 2020, when she was 26,
04:06she decided to go and see Dr Simon Gordon.
04:11He was the person that was on all the Facebook groups,
04:15all of the, you know, Instagram pages that I followed.
04:18He was listed as one of the best in Melbourne.
04:22He was, honestly, in that appointment,
04:24one of the most charming people I've ever met.
04:28Simon Gordon advised Mary to have a laparoscopy,
04:32keyhole surgery to inspect her pelvis
04:34and remove endometriosis.
04:38Mary says he fiercely criticised her previous surgeon.
04:44He was pointing to all the images saying,
04:47yep, see, that's endo, that's endo,
04:48she's left this behind, that's been left behind.
04:50And I'm so glad you've come to me,
04:53we're going to fix it all, look at all these spots,
04:55I'll take them out and then you'll be good as new.
04:57And were you?
04:58No.
05:02Mary woke up at Epworth Freemasons Hospital.
05:05With excruciating pain,
05:08she says she hadn't experienced
05:10after her previous surgery.
05:14Mum and I are both crying.
05:15He's saying, it's all confirmed, it was all endo,
05:18we got rid of it, so she's going to be amazing.
05:22Despite Dr Gordon's promises the endometriosis was gone,
05:27as the weeks and months passed,
05:30Mary Spanos did not feel any better.
05:34I was in debilitating pain.
05:36I'd gotten to a point where I'd purchased a walking stick
05:39because I could barely stand up straight.
05:44These are the pathology notes.
05:47Mary demanded to see all of her pathology results
05:50to see what was really going on.
05:54There were five separate pieces of tissue
05:56that had been sent off to pathology
05:58and all of them came back saying no endometriosis present.
06:01And his handwriting was right next to it saying nil.
06:04I just broke out in a sweat, broke out in tears
06:07and I just was in shock.
06:09So to be absolutely crystal clear about this,
06:11you're saying that he lied to you?
06:13Absolutely.
06:16These are just some of the women we've spoken to
06:19about Dr Simon Gordon.
06:22Some have had several laparoscopies with him.
06:26Some have had ovaries removed.
06:30And some have had their fertility compromised.
06:37Hi, I'm Dr Thierry Vankai.
06:39I'm a gynecologist since 1985
06:42and a pain medicine specialist since 2010.
06:47Professor Vankai is considered one of the fathers
06:50of laparoscopic surgery in Australia.
06:54We sent him Mary's medical files.
06:57He said while Dr Gordon claimed clear evidence
07:00of extensive scarring in Mary's pelvis,
07:04this was totally imaginary and there was barely any.
07:09Your words to us were, in my opinion,
07:12the surgery performed by Dr Gordon
07:15was totally unnecessary and caused more harm than good.
07:19That's correct, yes.
07:20Yes, indeed.
07:22And someone who has an almost clear pelvis,
07:26it's really sad to see.
07:29We've spoken to dozens of gynecologists for this story.
07:33They say that occasionally you can do a laparoscopy
07:36genuinely believing that the woman has endometriosis.
07:40And then when you operate,
07:41you realise that there was actually none.
07:44And so, of course,
07:45you immediately tell the woman the truth.
07:47But as our investigation progressed,
07:50we discovered that Simon Gordon
07:52was allowing women to believe,
07:54after a major operation
07:57that they had severe endometriosis
08:00when, in fact, they had little or none.
08:03And he was doing it again and again and again.
08:10I'm Dr Desiree Yep.
08:11I'm a specialist obstetrician and gynecologist.
08:16I've had a fairly constant trickle of patients
08:20from Dr Gordon in the last 15 or so years.
08:27Melbourne gynecologists we spoke to,
08:29both on and off camera,
08:32confirm they've seen patients
08:33whose pathology results don't show endometriosis
08:37when Dr Gordon has told them
08:39they had a severe case of the disease
08:42and operated as if they did.
08:46I then have to weigh up
08:48what is in the best interests of the woman
08:50about the problem that she is currently seeing me for.
08:54That sounds like a stressful situation
08:56to be in as a doctor.
08:58It is.
08:59I personally take a, you know,
09:02harm minimisation approach.
09:04So I don't want to distress a woman
09:07when I don't have a solution.
09:14I'm Shamitha Kathrasinger,
09:16gynecologist, working in Melbourne, Australia.
09:20What does it say
09:21when a doctor tells a patient
09:23that they were riddled with endometriosis
09:26when the histopathology shows otherwise?
09:29I think we're deceiving our patients.
09:32Have you had patients
09:33whose operation notes from Simon Gordon
09:36say they have endometriosis,
09:38but the histopathology shows they don't?
09:40The short answer is yes.
09:43On multiple occasions?
09:46Yes.
09:48Does that worry you?
09:51Yes.
09:55We asked Jess Foster
09:57to check the histopathology
09:59for her surgery.
10:01She had mild endometriosis
10:03during her first surgery
10:05with another doctor,
10:06but she's now discovered
10:08there was no trace of the disease
10:10on Dr Gordon's pathology samples.
10:13Dr Gordon diagnosed Jess
10:16with deep infiltrating endometriosis
10:19with deep infiltrating endometriosis
10:20shortly after he received these results.
10:25After I got out of the surgery,
10:27I woke up and it was instantly
10:29just this blinding pain.
10:32Like, it was...
10:34I can't even explain to you
10:36how bad this pain was.
10:37I actually just asked the nurses
10:39to kill me.
10:41I just said,
10:41I can't take it.
10:42I said,
10:43please, just kill me.
10:44I can't take it.
10:45I can't do it.
10:48Before she met Dr Gordon
10:50and even after her first operation
10:52with the other gynaecologist,
10:54Jess had a very different life.
10:57I was an incredibly active person.
11:00I went to the gym six days a week.
11:03I was a pole fitness instructor.
11:06She's now in constant pain.
11:09I am terrified of that pain.
11:12I am terrified.
11:14So at the moment,
11:15I have to take up to 50 milligrams
11:18of opiates a day,
11:20200 milligrams of ketamine,
11:22and I barely even took Panadol
11:24before his surgery.
11:25I can't exercise.
11:28I can't go to the gym.
11:30I...
11:32I can't work.
11:34I have barely any quality of life
11:36compared to what I had before.
11:38And that's because of the surgery?
11:40And that is the second I got out
11:42of the surgery with Simon Gordon,
11:43my entire life changed.
11:51After our interview with Jess,
11:53she complained to the medical regulator,
11:57ARPRA.
11:58Its investigation is still ongoing.
12:02Dr Gordon often performed a major surgery
12:05with the item number 35641,
12:09which Medicare rebates for severe endometriosis.
12:15We asked gynaecologists
12:17when it was appropriate
12:18for a surgeon to perform
12:20and bill for a 35641.
12:24I'm Dr Alice Whittaker,
12:26an obstetrician and gynaecologist
12:27with experience in public practice
12:29and private practice.
12:33So this billing
12:34is really reflecting
12:37someone who has very advanced endometriosis.
12:40So to be eligible for this item number,
12:41you need to demonstrate
12:43that person has had severe endometriosis.
12:46Dr Alice Whittaker
12:48understands the pain of endometriosis
12:50because she's had it herself.
12:52But she points out
12:53that about 80% of endometriosis
12:56in women
12:57is superficial,
12:59freckle-like spots
13:00on the lining of the pelvis
13:02and manageable
13:03without needing surgery.
13:06They don't need to fear
13:07that their endometriosis
13:08is going to progress
13:09and they're going to be left
13:11with major disease
13:13down the track.
13:16Severe endometriosis
13:18is relatively rare.
13:22Dr Karen Mizia
13:23is a gynaecologist
13:25who specialises
13:26in ultrasounds.
13:28Deep endometriosis
13:29is where the endometriosis
13:31has burrowed
13:32into the pelvic floor tissues
13:34or to the tissues
13:35in the pelvis.
13:36And there's a chance
13:38that it has invaded
13:39into either bowel,
13:40blood vessels
13:41or other tissue
13:42and then excising
13:44that is going to be
13:45much more complex
13:46compared to superficial
13:48endometriosis.
13:55Medicare's item number fee
13:56for a 35641
13:58is $1,449
14:01more than any other
14:03endometriosis surgery.
14:06Some of the patients
14:08we spoke to
14:09had more than one
14:10of these operations
14:11with Simon Gordon.
14:18Is it ever acceptable
14:19that a 35641 laparoscopy
14:22be conducted
14:23in circumstances
14:24where the histopathology
14:26shows no endometriosis?
14:28Absolutely not.
14:32Hi, I'm Dr Peter Wright.
14:34I'm a gynaecologist
14:35working in Brisbane.
14:37The current evidence
14:38does not suggest
14:39that laparoscopy
14:40and excision of endometriosis
14:42is a good treatment
14:43of pelvic pain.
14:44So I always say
14:46that surgery
14:47can diagnose endometriosis,
14:49it can remove lesions
14:51and it may or may not
14:53improve pain.
14:54Look, I think surgery
14:55can be a really
14:56important tool
14:57in the management
14:58of endometriosis
14:59associated pain
15:00but when it's used
15:02repeatedly
15:03and used inappropriately,
15:05particularly in the context
15:07of chronic pelvic pain,
15:08it can be unhelpful
15:09and frankly harmful.
15:12So that's in there.
15:14Right there.
15:16There's a scar tissue
15:17from previous surgery.
15:19Professor Van Kaj
15:20reserves a 35641 surgery
15:23for only very exceptional cases.
15:26It is performed
15:28in cases of extensive
15:29endometriosis
15:30involving indeed
15:32the bowel and your wrist
15:33for instance.
15:34It's sort of the exception
15:35of right and the rule,
15:37really.
15:37So that's why
15:38it's a special category.
15:40Does it concern you
15:42that there are women
15:43having tissue removed
15:45unnecessarily?
15:46Absolutely.
15:47Because I see
15:48the consequences of it
15:49in terms of pain
15:52secondary to
15:53surgical intervention.
15:54as a pain specialist.
15:57So yes,
15:58my thinking is
15:59that surgery
15:59should be kept
16:00to a minimum.
16:04Professor Van Kaj
16:05also agrees
16:07that telling women
16:08they have endometriosis
16:09when the histopathology
16:11shows they do not
16:12is unacceptable.
16:15That's not right.
16:17That's for sure.
16:19We went to Canberra
16:21to speak to the
16:22Federal Health Minister
16:23Mark Butler
16:24about the complaints
16:26we've received
16:27about Dr Gordon.
16:29Have you spoken
16:30to your department
16:31about an investigation
16:33by Medicare
16:34into this particular doctor?
16:36Well, I've got advice
16:38that those investigations
16:39are underway.
16:41So there's an investigation
16:42by Medicare?
16:43On Medicare billings, yes.
16:46In his statement,
16:48Simon Gordon
16:49told Four Corners,
16:50over my two and a half
16:52decades as a specialist,
16:54Medicare has never
16:55contacted me
16:56about inappropriate
16:58billing.
17:01Dr Gordon
17:03charged higher
17:04out-of-pocket fees
17:05than other
17:06gynaecologists
17:07Four Corners
17:08has spoken to,
17:09both on
17:10and off camera.
17:12Some of the patients
17:14did not have
17:15private health insurance.
17:17I actually
17:18had to access
17:19my super,
17:20my retirement,
17:21to pay for this surgery.
17:23The surgery
17:24cost me
17:25more than
17:25$14,000.
17:27My partner
17:28had to take out
17:29a personal loan
17:30to help me
17:30find that
17:31surgery,
17:33which we're still
17:34paying off
17:34until today.
17:37Oh, yes,
17:38I can fix that.
17:39I can cure you.
17:41Nicole Van Der Zee
17:42did have
17:42endometriosis
17:44when she had
17:44surgery with
17:45Dr Gordon,
17:46but she's still
17:47in physical
17:48and financial
17:49pain
17:50four years
17:51later.
17:51Was the surgery
17:53successful?
17:55To Simon Gordon,
17:57yes.
17:57In his words,
17:59the surgery
18:00went perfectly,
18:02but I'm
18:02actually in more
18:03pain
18:04post-surgery
18:05than I was
18:05prior to the
18:06surgery.
18:07So there was
18:08no benefit
18:09as far as
18:10you could see?
18:10Oh, no.
18:11Oh, no.
18:12If I could tell
18:12my past self
18:16to not go
18:17through with it,
18:18I wish I could.
18:19I really wish I could.
18:20So, Nicole,
18:21these are your
18:22bills for the
18:23surgery?
18:24Yes, some of.
18:25Some of.
18:26So all up,
18:27how much did
18:28you actually pay?
18:29For the day
18:30to be in hospital
18:31for the laparoscopy,
18:32it was
18:34close to
18:34$13,500.
18:37That included
18:38the overnight
18:39bed costs,
18:40Dr Gordon's
18:41out-of-pocket
18:42fees,
18:43and the
18:43anaesthetist.
18:45I didn't have
18:46that money,
18:46so I needed
18:47to borrow,
18:48and thankfully
18:49I had family
18:50that I could
18:50borrow off
18:51without putting
18:51myself into
18:52a horrible
18:53debt,
18:54you know,
18:54with a bank.
18:55And you're
18:56still in debt
18:56for that surgery?
18:58Yeah.
18:59Yeah, I'm still
18:59paying family
19:00back.
19:01Yeah.
19:02Yeah.
19:04Dr Gordon
19:05has made
19:06an impressive
19:07living from
19:07women like
19:08these.
19:09He's been
19:09a golden goose
19:11for the
19:11Epworth.
19:12A few months
19:14after he
19:14operated on
19:15Nicole Van
19:16Desy,
19:16Dr Gordon
19:17paid $5 million
19:19for this property
19:21on Victoria's
19:22Mornington Peninsula.
19:24He also bought
19:26this slick
19:27inner city penthouse,
19:28which is now
19:29for sale
19:30for almost
19:31$3.5 million.
19:36I'll never forget
19:38this pin wall
19:39that he had
19:39with photos
19:40and letters,
19:42and on it
19:43was a handmade
19:44card that said,
19:45I love my daddy
19:47because he drives
19:48a Ferrari.
19:50So he's driving
19:52a Ferrari
19:52and you're
19:53in debt
19:54and not any
19:55better than
19:56you were before?
19:56Worse.
19:57I'm worse
19:59than I was
19:59before.
20:02Queensland
20:03practitioner Dr Peter Wright
20:05doesn't know
20:06Dr Gordon,
20:07but she knows
20:08other surgeons
20:09who also perform
20:11multiple laparoscopies
20:12on women
20:13despite clear
20:15national guidelines
20:16that advise
20:17exercising caution
20:19before doing
20:20repeat surgeries.
20:24The people
20:25that do a lot
20:26of surgeries,
20:26their entire business
20:27is built on the surgery
20:28that they do
20:29and they're great surgeons
20:30and they're good people.
20:32If they accept
20:34this science,
20:35then their entire
20:36practice has to change
20:38and that's their
20:39mortgage payments,
20:40that's their private
20:42school fees,
20:43that's all of that.
20:45That's why
20:45this is such a
20:46difficult thing
20:47to change.
20:48That's why.
20:52When gynaecologists
20:54discuss other pain
20:55options with patients
20:57like medication,
20:58physiotherapy,
20:59diet,
21:00the Medicare item
21:01fee for that
21:02consultation
21:03is $178,
21:05a small fraction
21:06of what a surgeon
21:07receives
21:08for a 3-5-6-4-1
21:10operation.
21:13I think it's
21:14all set up
21:15because Medicare
21:16thinks that
21:16gynaecology
21:17is a surgical
21:18specialty
21:18and they
21:20give greater
21:21rebates
21:22to surgeries.
21:23There's a
21:23financial incentive
21:24to operate
21:25rather than
21:26to listen,
21:28validate
21:28without
21:29a surgeon's
21:30knife.
21:32You have
21:34seen
21:34Simon Gordon
21:35patients who
21:36have had
21:36multiple
21:37laparoscopies.
21:38Yes,
21:38I have.
21:39The College
21:40of Gynaecologists
21:41and Obstetricians
21:42has guidelines
21:42and it says
21:43that it
21:44recommends
21:44careful
21:45consideration
21:46for repeat
21:48laparoscopic
21:48surgery
21:49for people
21:50with endometriosis.
21:51Why is that?
21:52Because there's
21:53no evidence
21:54that repeated
21:55laparoscopies
21:57solved the problem.
21:58I think
21:59that in the
22:00last 20 years
22:01we've really
22:02moved away
22:03from the
22:04idea
22:04that surgery
22:06is the
22:06cure for
22:07pain.
22:08My philosophy
22:09is more
22:09than one
22:10year done.
22:11So you
22:12want to do
22:12it once,
22:12you want
22:13to do
22:13it well.
22:14I would
22:14say since
22:162015 I
22:17probably
22:17haven't had
22:18to repeat
22:19a laparoscopy
22:20in the same
22:20patient.
22:21What are the
22:21dangers of
22:22continually
22:22removing tissue
22:24in this way?
22:25Treating a
22:25patient's pain
22:26is less likely
22:27to be effective
22:29the second time
22:30around.
22:30So scuritissure
22:31can cause
22:33pain
22:34or indirectly
22:35and scuritissure
22:37is definitely
22:38very difficult
22:39to treat.
22:40I am
22:41anxious
22:42every time
22:43before I
22:43operate on
22:44their pelvis
22:44and it has
22:45to pay
22:46dividends
22:46for that
22:47patient
22:47in terms
22:47of quality
22:48of life.
22:50Every time
22:51we cut
22:51we have
22:53the potential
22:53to cause
22:54harm.
22:57Simon Gordon
22:59told Four Corners
23:00across my
23:01entire career
23:02I never
23:03performed
23:03surgery
23:04to treat
23:05endometriosis
23:06or any
23:06other condition
23:07unless I
23:08was absolutely
23:09convinced
23:10it was in
23:11the patient's
23:12best interests
23:13and to
23:14improve
23:14their overall
23:16quality of
23:16life.
23:18Whatever
23:19Dr Gordon
23:20thought
23:20there were
23:21certainly
23:21clinicians
23:22at the
23:23Epworth
23:23Hospital
23:24who were
23:24concerned
23:25about his
23:26practices.
23:27I had a
23:28pretty horrific
23:28onset of pain
23:29whilst at
23:30home
23:30I'd only
23:31just been
23:31discharged
23:32from
23:32Simon's
23:32care
23:33so we
23:34returned
23:34to Epworth
23:35Emergency
23:35Department
23:36to be
23:36seen.
23:37When they
23:38tried to
23:38contact
23:38Simon
23:40he
23:41wouldn't
23:41admit me
23:41he refused
23:42to admit
23:42me.
23:44He said
23:44and I
23:45quote
23:45the
23:46emergency
23:46department
23:46is for
23:47people
23:47who are
23:47dying.
23:50It was
23:51pretty clear
23:51that the
23:51emergency
23:52department
23:52doctor
23:52was
23:54extremely
23:54disgusted
23:55in that
23:55behaviour
23:56and she
23:57actually put
23:57through
23:57a formal
23:58complaint.
24:01There
24:02were
24:02multiple
24:03complaints
24:04to
24:04management.
24:07The
24:08complaints
24:09even came
24:10from doctors.
24:11An
24:11emergency
24:11physician
24:12and a
24:13gynaecologist
24:14working in
24:14intensive care
24:15complained to
24:16Epworth's
24:17director of
24:18medical
24:19services
24:19because Dr
24:20Gordon
24:21refused to
24:21see his
24:22own patients
24:23who were
24:24having
24:24medical
24:25emergencies.
24:27Dr
24:27Gordon says
24:28he was not
24:29aware of
24:30complaints.
24:33An
24:34Epworth
24:34fertility
24:35specialist
24:36intervened to
24:37stop
24:37Abby Lewis
24:38from losing
24:39an ovary.
24:40When we
24:41met Abby
24:42she had
24:43recently
24:43become a
24:44mum.
24:45I feel
24:46very blessed.
24:47I feel
24:47that he
24:47is my
24:48little
24:48miracle
24:49baby.
24:51But it
24:52would have
24:52been much
24:53harder for
24:54Abby to
24:54conceive this
24:55little
24:56miracle had
24:57that fertility
24:58doctor not
24:59put a stop
25:00to Simon
25:01Gordon's
25:01plans.
25:03Dr
25:03Gordon first
25:04operated on
25:05Abby when
25:06she was a
25:06teenager and
25:08at that
25:08point she
25:09had
25:09endometriosis.
25:11By the
25:11time she
25:12was 21
25:12she'd had
25:13four
25:14laparoscopies
25:15with him.
25:16Abby
25:17has only
25:17now discovered
25:18that in
25:19the last
25:19two there
25:20was no
25:21endometriosis
25:22present in
25:23her pathology
25:24even though
25:26Dr
25:26Gordon wrote
25:27in his
25:27operation
25:28report that
25:29he excised
25:30it.
25:30I went
25:31back
25:31complaining
25:32of my
25:33left-sided
25:34pelvic
25:34pain and
25:35from the
25:36start he
25:36had told
25:37me that
25:37my
25:38endometriosis
25:39was worse
25:39on the
25:40left side
25:40so he
25:42said now
25:42it hasn't
25:43worked what
25:44we've done
25:44hasn't worked
25:44so it's
25:45time that
25:45we're just
25:46going to
25:46have to
25:46remove it.
25:47Remove an
25:48ovary.
25:48Remove an
25:49ovary.
25:49My heart
25:50kind of sunk
25:51when he
25:51said it
25:52because it's
25:52I was 22
25:54at the time
25:55it's a pretty
25:56big deal to
25:56be told that
25:57your ovary has
25:58to come out.
25:59And from
26:00what we have
26:00found speaking
26:01to other
26:02gynaecologists
26:03it's not
26:04recommended for
26:05women in
26:05their 20s.
26:06No.
26:07Did he
26:08explain any
26:09of that?
26:10No.
26:10There was no
26:11explanation and
26:12any questions
26:13were shut down
26:14pretty quickly.
26:16there is a
26:17reason why we
26:17have these
26:18organs in
26:18our bodies
26:19for the
26:19ovary other
26:20than fertility
26:21an ovary plays
26:23a pivotal role
26:24in a person's
26:24well-being
26:25their bone
26:26health
26:26their menopausal
26:28overall general
26:28health.
26:29So is it
26:30fair to say
26:31that you
26:32would only
26:32remove an
26:33ovary in a
26:34woman in
26:35her 20s
26:36in very
26:36very rare
26:37circumstances?
26:39That is
26:39correct.
26:40Have you
26:41seen young
26:42women in
26:43their 20s
26:44who've had
26:45ovaries removed
26:46when the
26:46histopathology
26:47shows no
26:48endometriosis
26:49and there's
26:50no fertility
26:51preservation
26:51by Dr.
26:52Gordon?
26:53Yes.
26:54Does that
26:55concern you?
26:58It concerns
26:59me because it
26:59is hugely
27:00different to
27:01how I would
27:01practice.
27:03I would
27:04hope that
27:04actually
27:05doesn't
27:05happen.
27:07He's a
27:07good sleeper.
27:08Is he?
27:09Yeah.
27:09Wow.
27:10That's good
27:10for that
27:11age.
27:11The fertility
27:12doctor who
27:12saved Abby's
27:14ovary was
27:14alarmed such
27:15a young woman
27:16was about to
27:17have an organ
27:18removed.
27:19The main
27:20thing is...
27:20He got a
27:21second opinion
27:22from a
27:22professor of
27:23gynaecology who
27:25agreed the
27:26ovary should
27:27not come out.
27:28He was
27:29pleading with
27:30me not to
27:31remove an
27:31ovary at
27:32my age when
27:34there's really
27:35no need for
27:35it to go.
27:37That doctor
27:38made a
27:39complaint to
27:40Epworth
27:40management about
27:41that.
27:42Yeah.
27:43The point
27:43is that that
27:44was one of
27:45many complaints
27:46that have been
27:47made to the
27:48hospital about
27:49this surgeon.
27:51Yeah.
27:51By doctors and
27:52by patients and
27:53by nurses.
27:55Yeah.
27:55It's just
27:56disappointing that
27:57it's taken so
27:58long for
27:59anything to be
28:01done.
28:03Epworth's
28:04director of
28:04medical services
28:05says she
28:07cannot recall
28:08this complaint
28:08but she did
28:09counsel Simon
28:10Gordon about
28:11another complaint.
28:13In September
28:152024 a
28:17professor of
28:17gynaecology
28:18complained with
28:19two other
28:20doctors to
28:21the medical
28:22regulator
28:22ARPRA.
28:24We suggest
28:25that you
28:25actually chase
28:26the pathology
28:27of the
28:28patients as
28:29many patients
28:30who have been
28:30told they
28:31have endometriosis
28:33slash severe
28:34endometriosis
28:35but in fact
28:36have no
28:37pathology
28:38confirming this
28:39and patients
28:41listed all
28:42had at least
28:43one ovary
28:44removed.
28:45I cannot
28:46find a
28:47colleague who
28:47takes out an
28:48ovary in a
28:49young woman
28:50under 30
28:51except in
28:52very rare
28:53circumstances
28:54for example
28:55cancer.
28:57This surgical
28:58approach is
28:59outside of
29:00standard
29:01gynaecological
29:02practice.
29:04Years after
29:06people first
29:07started
29:07complaining about
29:08Dr Gordon
29:09ARPRA has
29:10requested
29:11thousands of
29:12pages of
29:13his patient
29:14files from
29:15Epworth
29:15Hospital.
29:17On February
29:1810
29:19Epworth's
29:20CEO
29:20Andrew
29:21Strip
29:22wrote to
29:23ARPRA
29:23requesting that
29:24the regulator
29:25inform hospitals
29:27in a timely
29:28manner if it
29:29was investigating
29:30doctors to
29:31safeguard patient
29:33safety.
29:34In a statement
29:36to Four Corners
29:37Professor
29:37Strip said
29:38to anyone who
29:40feels unheard
29:41or let down
29:42I am truly
29:44sorry for the
29:45impact that
29:46experience has
29:47had on you.
29:50From what
29:50you've seen
29:51do you think
29:52that these
29:52women were
29:53let down?
29:53Well it
29:54goes without
29:55saying these
29:55women have
29:56been let
29:56down by
29:57the system
29:58and really
29:59our job
29:59now is to
30:00determine how
30:01we can ensure
30:02this doesn't
30:03happen again.
30:05As we met
30:06more women
30:07and health
30:08professionals
30:08complaining about
30:09Simon Gordon's
30:11practices we
30:12were contacted
30:13by a crisis
30:14communications
30:15professional
30:16for Epworth.
30:17That's when
30:18the hospital
30:19started investigating
30:20Simon Gordon
30:21and told him
30:22he'd have to
30:23go on leave.
30:24The CEO
30:26informed
30:27Epworth's
30:27board and
30:28on that
30:29weekend
30:29Dr Gordon
30:30announced his
30:31retirement
30:32and cancelled
30:33all of his
30:34surgeries.
30:37By the
30:38Monday morning
30:38Simon Gordon's
30:40rooms had
30:41been completely
30:41cleaned out.
30:43This caused
30:45chaos amongst
30:46his patients
30:47as so many
30:48women were
30:48left without
30:49care.
30:51As this
30:52happened
30:53Isabella
30:53Ganji was
30:54waiting for
30:55her surgery
30:56with Simon
30:57Gordon.
30:58Days before
30:59he retired
31:00Isabella posted
31:01this video
31:02on social
31:03media.
31:04I am
31:05having surgery
31:06on the
31:0812th of
31:09November
31:10in a couple
31:11of weeks
31:12he's going
31:14to remove
31:15my left
31:16ovary.
31:17If it
31:17means that
31:18I'm not
31:18going to be
31:18in any
31:19pain anymore
31:20let's do
31:20it.
31:22Isabella
31:22is autistic.
31:24We visit
31:25her in
31:26assisted living
31:26accommodation.
31:28Her family
31:28paid for her
31:29surgeries in
31:30the hope
31:30their girl
31:31could beat
31:32the excruciating
31:33pain she'd
31:35lived with
31:35for years.
31:36Dr Gordon's
31:38retirement and
31:39sudden cancellation
31:40of Isabella's
31:41surgery sent
31:42her mental
31:43health
31:43spiralling.
31:44When I
31:45found out
31:46he retired
31:47I was very
31:48hurt and
31:49upset because
31:51he said that
31:52the surgery
31:52that I was
31:53going to
31:53have was
31:53going to
31:54completely
31:54fix me
31:55and take
31:56my pain
31:57away.
31:58I was
31:58very suicidal
32:00and I didn't
32:01know what to
32:02do anymore.
32:03Two days
32:04after Simon
32:05Gordon retired
32:06Isabella
32:07Gangi
32:08attempted
32:08suicide.
32:10Her GP
32:11referred her
32:12to see
32:13another
32:13gynaecologist
32:14who explained
32:16she hadn't
32:17actually needed
32:18the ovary
32:19removed at
32:19all and
32:20refused to
32:21take it out.
32:22You felt
32:23suicidal on
32:24Monday about
32:25losing Dr Gordon.
32:27How do you
32:28feel about him
32:28now?
32:29Very angry
32:30and disappointed
32:31with him.
32:33He told
32:34me that
32:35he was
32:35going to
32:36be the
32:36one to
32:36stop all
32:37my pain
32:38and I
32:38believed
32:39him but
32:39I am
32:40just
32:40finding out
32:43that he
32:44was going
32:44to make
32:45me worse
32:46makes me
32:47angry.
32:49I'm angry
32:50at myself
32:51for believing
32:53in him
32:53and thinking
32:55that I was
32:56going to
32:56get better.
32:58You shouldn't
32:59be angry
33:00at yourself.
33:06you didn't
33:07make this
33:07happen
33:08Isabella.
33:12I should
33:13have asked
33:14more questions
33:15and I should
33:17have asked
33:18for more
33:19information
33:23but all he
33:24said was
33:25it's going
33:25to stop
33:26my
33:26pain
33:26and I
33:27believed
33:27him.
33:41We
33:42travelled
33:42to Thailand
33:43to meet
33:44a young
33:45woman who
33:46wasn't saved
33:47by another
33:48doctor.
33:50A young
33:51woman whose
33:52case is
33:53absolutely
33:54notorious
33:55in Epworth
33:56gynaecology
33:57circles.
33:58Courtney
33:59Patton had
34:00seven
34:01laparoscopies
34:02with Simon
34:02Gordon.
34:06I've had
34:07the opportunity
34:07to have a
34:08family taken
34:09away from
34:09me.
34:10I'll never
34:10be able to
34:10get that
34:11back.
34:14By the
34:15time she
34:15was 25
34:16Dr Gordon
34:18had removed
34:19three of
34:20Courtney's
34:20organs and
34:21rendered her
34:22infertile.
34:23It's left
34:24her deeply
34:25traumatised.
34:28I've
34:29endured
34:29multiple
34:30surgeries for
34:31what I was
34:32told was to
34:33help with
34:34my endometriosis
34:35symptoms.
34:35I've had
34:36both my
34:36ovaries
34:37removed and
34:38my uterus
34:39removed all
34:39on separate
34:40occasions.
34:41At one
34:41point it
34:42felt like
34:42I'd spent
34:43my 20s
34:44in Epworth.
34:46I ended
34:46up in the
34:47Cabrini
34:48Mental Health
34:49Hospital for
34:50severe PTSD
34:51from everything
34:52I'd injured
34:53with Simon
34:54Gordon.
34:55From the
34:56multiple
34:56surgeries.
34:57Yeah.
35:03In the
35:04days before
35:04Simon
35:05Gordon
35:05suddenly
35:06retired
35:06Four Corners
35:07asked Courtney
35:08Patton to
35:09email Dr
35:10Gordon to
35:11request all
35:12of the
35:12pathology
35:13results from
35:14all seven
35:15of her
35:15operations
35:16because she'd
35:17never been
35:18given that
35:18information
35:19before.
35:21He said
35:23Hi Courtney
35:24it's been
35:24a while
35:25hope you
35:26are well
35:26unfortunately
35:27I cannot
35:28locate any
35:29histopathology
35:30for you
35:30your file
35:32appears to
35:33be missing
35:34or has been
35:34culled
35:35regards
35:36Simon
35:39Doctors
35:40are legally
35:41required to
35:42keep patients
35:43medical records
35:44for seven
35:45years.
35:46We went
35:47through
35:47Courtney's
35:48pathology
35:49records
35:49comparing them
35:50with what
35:51Dr Gordon
35:52wrote in
35:53his
35:53operation
35:54reports.
35:55The results
35:56are simply
35:57shocking.
35:58This is your
35:59first operation
36:00in 2019
36:01with Simon
36:02Gordon.
36:03Yeah.
36:04So let's
36:04have a look
36:05report then
36:06specimen
36:07one
36:07no evidence
36:08of malignancy
36:09specimen
36:11two
36:11no histological
36:13evidence of
36:14endometriosis
36:15specimen
36:16three
36:16specimen
36:17four
36:18specimen
36:19five
36:19no
36:20endometriosis
36:21is identified
36:22and specimen
36:23six
36:24there is no
36:25evidence
36:26of endometriosis.
36:27How do you
36:29feel
36:29seeing those
36:30words?
36:31Violated.
36:33Yeah
36:33violated.
36:35This is a
36:37letter to
36:37your GP?
36:38Yeah.
36:39And he
36:40says it's
36:41entirely
36:42consistent
36:43with
36:43endometriosis.
36:46This is
36:47the billing
36:48for
36:49that
36:50procedure.
36:51This
36:52has been
36:53billed
36:53for
36:54advanced
36:55endometriosis.
36:57surgery.
36:59And there
37:00was no
37:01endometriosis
37:02surgery.
37:04In February
37:062020
37:06Dr Gordon
37:07performed
37:08a second
37:09surgery
37:10on Courtney
37:10that was
37:11designed
37:12for severe
37:13endometriosis.
37:15In one
37:16of the
37:16five
37:17pathology
37:18samples
37:18some
37:19tiny
37:19deposits
37:20consistent
37:21with
37:21endometriosis
37:22were found
37:23but all
37:24of the
37:25rest
37:25were negative
37:26three months
37:27later
37:27Courtney
37:28had
37:29surgery
37:29number
37:30three.
37:31No
37:32endometriosis
37:33identified
37:33in multiple
37:34levels.
37:36And what
37:37does he
37:37write to
37:38your doctor?
37:39Courtney
37:39has had
37:40a number
37:40of
37:40challenging
37:41surgeries
37:41for
37:42endometriosis.
37:44endometriosis.
37:45And again
37:45he's billed
37:46you?
37:47For
37:48advanced
37:48endometriosis.
37:50In
37:50January
37:502021
37:51surgery
37:52number
37:53four.
37:54This is
37:54an important
37:55one.
37:55Why is
37:56that?
37:57Here
37:57you took
37:57out my
37:58right
37:58ovary.
38:00Okay.
38:01The
38:01pathology
38:02again
38:02showed
38:03no
38:04evidence
38:04of
38:05endometriosis.
38:06He
38:07writes
38:07to your
38:08doctor
38:09and he
38:09says
38:10Courtney
38:11has a
38:11long
38:11history
38:12symptomatic
38:12of
38:13endometriosis.
38:14I mean
38:15how do
38:16you feel
38:16about that
38:16now?
38:18It's
38:19shattering
38:19because I
38:20put my
38:21trust
38:21with this
38:22doctor
38:23thinking
38:23he knew
38:23best
38:24he knew
38:24what was
38:25best
38:25for me
38:25he knew
38:26how anxious
38:27I was
38:28about not
38:28being able
38:28to have
38:29kids
38:29in the
38:29future.
38:30And this
38:31is the
38:32beginning
38:32of the
38:33end of
38:34your
38:34fertility?
38:35Yeah.
38:36And I
38:36was only
38:3723.
38:43Courtney
38:44spends her
38:45days trying
38:46to mentally
38:47process it
38:47all.
38:49She's now
38:50discovered
38:50there was
38:51no disease
38:52on her
38:52histopathology
38:53when Simon
38:54Gordon
38:55did surgery
38:56number six
38:57to remove
38:58her second
38:59healthy
39:00ovary.
39:02That said
39:03it's not
39:03as if
39:04no one
39:05was worried
39:05about what
39:06was happening
39:07to this
39:07young woman.
39:10As time
39:11wore on
39:12there were
39:12serious
39:13concerns
39:13amongst
39:14the other
39:14medical
39:15professionals
39:15who were
39:16seeing
39:16Courtney.
39:17One of
39:18them
39:18raised
39:19the
39:19alarm
39:19to
39:19Epworth
39:20management
39:20that
39:21Simon
39:22Gordon
39:22had taken
39:23a second
39:24ovary
39:24from the
39:2524-year-old
39:26Courtney
39:26without
39:27fertility
39:28preservation.
39:29Another
39:30doctor who
39:30saw Courtney
39:31at the
39:31time was
39:32so disturbed
39:33by the
39:34removal of
39:35that second
39:35ovary that
39:36she had to
39:37leave a
39:37consultation
39:38with Courtney
39:39and she
39:40burst into
39:40tears.
39:43People were
39:44raising red
39:45flags all
39:46over the
39:46place but
39:48nothing
39:49happened.
39:49Nothing
39:49happened.
39:55Four Corners
39:57has discovered
39:57that a
39:58clinician's
39:59complaint
40:00about
40:00Courtney's
40:01second
40:01ovary being
40:02removed
40:03went to
40:04Dr.
40:05Kate Tyson
40:05then
40:06Director
40:07of Epworth's
40:08Endometriosis
40:09Centre
40:09and Dr.
40:11Lamont
40:12the Director
40:13of its
40:13Women's
40:14and Children's
40:14Clinical
40:15Institute.
40:16Dr.
40:18Lamont
40:18emailed
40:19Dr.
40:20Vivek
40:20Nigam
40:21then
40:21Director
40:22of Medical
40:23Services.
40:24The
40:25hospital's
40:26records
40:26don't show
40:27what happened
40:28from there
40:29and Dr.
40:30Nigam
40:30can't recall
40:31it.
40:35While this
40:36was happening
40:37behind the
40:37scenes
40:38Dr.
40:39Gordon
40:39told Courtney
40:40she needed
40:41a seventh
40:42surgery
40:43a hysterectomy.
40:45Another
40:46gynaecologist
40:47warned that
40:47it was
40:48unnecessary
40:50but then
40:51in 2023
40:53Courtney
40:54was
40:54hospitalised
40:55with a
40:56kidney
40:56infection
40:57and
40:58Simon
40:59Gordon
40:59came to
41:00see her
41:00convincing
41:01Courtney
41:01removing
41:02her uterus
41:03would
41:04relieve
41:04her pain.
41:06When
41:07you're
41:07in
41:08my
41:09position
41:09when
41:09someone's
41:10seeing
41:10your
41:10insides
41:11multiple
41:11times
41:12over
41:13and
41:13over
41:13and
41:14when
41:14you
41:14get
41:15so
41:15desperate
41:15for
41:16help
41:16something
41:17in
41:17you
41:17just
41:17goes
41:17oh
41:18okay
41:18I'll
41:18trust
41:19him
41:21Courtney
41:22Patton
41:22was
41:2325
41:27it's
41:28devastating
41:30he's
41:31taken
41:31the
41:32trust
41:32of a
41:32young
41:33vulnerable
41:33woman
41:34and
41:34completely
41:35betrayed
41:35it
41:41we
41:42forwarded
41:43Courtney
41:43Patton's
41:44operation
41:45notes
41:45pathology
41:46results
41:46bills
41:47and
41:47some
41:48surgical
41:48photos
41:49to
41:49Professor
41:50Thierry
41:50Van
41:51Kye
41:51he wrote
41:53back
41:53that he
41:54was
41:54shocked
41:54at what
41:55he saw
41:55the
41:56treatment
41:57or rather
41:57the
41:58mistreatment
41:59received
41:59by this
42:00poor
42:00patient
42:01Courtney
42:01Patton
42:02is
42:02unbelievable
42:03how on
42:04earth
42:05could
42:05anyone
42:10justify
42:10something
42:11should
42:12have
42:12happened
42:12after
42:13the
42:13second
42:13microscopy
42:14in
42:14other
42:15words
42:15the
42:15diagnosis
42:16was
42:16not
42:16correct
42:17anymore
42:17I was
42:18sick
42:19to the
42:19stomach
42:19really
42:20I was
42:20sickening
42:21to look
42:21at
42:22beautiful
42:23pelvis
42:23to start
42:23with
42:24and
42:24what
42:25happened
42:25afterwards
42:25how do
42:26you feel
42:27that no
42:27one
42:28stopped
42:28this
42:29from
42:29happening
42:29to
42:30Courtney
42:30well
42:31it's
42:31unacceptable
42:31really
42:33feels
42:33like
42:34nobody
42:34wants
42:34to take
42:35responsibility
42:35or nobody
42:36knows
42:36whose
42:37responsibility
42:38it is
42:38I have
42:39to say
42:40it's one
42:40of the
42:40worst
42:41cases
42:41I've
42:42seen
42:42one of
42:43the worst
42:43stories
42:43I've read
42:44as a
42:44health
42:44minister
42:45about
42:46care
42:46being
42:47delivered
42:47in what
42:47is otherwise
42:48a terrific
42:49health care
42:49system
42:50I have to
42:50say I
42:51felt quite
42:51physically
42:52sick
42:52reading it
42:53I mean
42:54it's
42:54incredibly
42:54distressing
42:57and
42:58epworth
42:58and
42:59he's
43:00in the
43:01hospital
43:01for
43:02health
43:02reasons
43:03and
43:03declined
43:04to make
43:05his
43:05chief
43:06medical
43:06officer
43:07available
43:07in a
43:09statement
43:09professor
43:10strip
43:10said the
43:11experiences
43:12being
43:12described
43:13were deeply
43:14distressing
43:15and the
43:15hospital
43:16had referred
43:17Courtney's
43:17case to
43:18ARPRA in
43:19October last
43:20year
43:20he is now
43:23commissioning an
43:24external review
43:25of the
43:25hospital's
43:26clinical
43:27governance
43:33Simon
43:34Gordon
43:35declined
43:35to be
43:36interviewed
43:36and refused
43:37to speak
43:38with Four
43:38Corners
43:39about any
43:39of these
43:40individual
43:41women's
43:41cases
43:42despite
43:43them all
43:43providing
43:44consent
43:44for him
43:45to do
43:45so
43:47more
43:48generally
43:48he said
43:49for generations
43:50the pain
43:51suffered
43:51by women
43:52was ignored
43:53downplayed
43:54and untreated
43:55my concern
43:57was to try
43:58and alleviate
43:59pain
44:00and restore
44:01quality of life
44:02for female
44:03patients
44:08solicitor
44:09Emily Hart
44:09is representing
44:11Courtney
44:11and has now
44:12been contacted
44:13by more than
44:1480 women
44:15treated
44:16by Dr Gordon
44:17I don't think
44:19there is an amount
44:20of money
44:20that can probably
44:21compensate someone
44:22for the loss
44:23of their fertility
44:23particularly
44:24at such
44:25a young
44:25age
44:25what really
44:27shocked me
44:27when I first
44:28became aware
44:29of this matter
44:30was the way
44:31that Simon Gordon's
44:33practice
44:33differed so
44:34dramatically
44:35from other
44:35matters
44:35that I'd
44:36seen
44:36again
44:37and again
44:38and again
44:39senior managers
44:40at the largest
44:42private hospital
44:43in Victoria
44:44were being
44:45informed
44:46about concerns
44:47about this man's
44:48care of vulnerable
44:49women
44:50and yet
44:50nothing happened
44:51what do you say
44:53to that
44:54well that really
44:54is why I've
44:56written to the
44:56Victorian minister
44:57to ask
44:57whether or not
44:58there should be
44:59an investigation
44:59into the clinical
45:01governance standards
45:02and the application
45:03of those standards
45:04at this hospital
45:06in December
45:08Simon Gordon
45:09removed himself
45:10from ARPRA's
45:11register
45:12of practitioners
45:13the regulators
45:14investigation
45:15into him
45:16continues
45:17Dr. Desiree Yap
45:20says she knows
45:21why the corrosive
45:23culture of silence
45:24about doctors
45:25like Simon Gordon
45:26remains
45:28I think
45:29that we
45:30don't have
45:30faith
45:31that there
45:32are good
45:32mechanisms
45:33for reporting
45:36performance
45:37concerns
45:37I have spent
45:39a career
45:39where
45:41I have been
45:42in a male
45:42dominated
45:44environment
45:44where
45:45career progression
45:48was a patronage
45:49type of system
45:51basically
45:51if you're not
45:52a team player
45:53you're not
45:53on the team
45:54What's the
45:55consequence of that
45:56for patients
45:56though
45:57if there are
45:57real concerns
45:59I think
46:00it's a big
46:01problem
46:01for quality
46:02of care
46:03for patients
46:04why do you
46:05think this
46:05hasn't come out
46:06I think
46:08most of us
46:09are scared
46:09why is that
46:11many of us
46:12who've ever
46:13throughout our
46:14career
46:14if we've ever
46:15tried to speak up
46:16we've often
46:17been punished
46:18for speaking up
46:20for myself
46:21I am a
46:22female surgeon
46:23working in
46:24Melbourne
46:25if I add
46:26the part
46:26that I'm
46:27a brown
46:27female surgeon
46:28then that
46:29makes it
46:30much more
46:30difficult
46:31for me
46:31to speak up
46:32Louise
46:33I speak
46:34today
46:35and we've
46:36had a chat
46:37about this
46:37that there's
46:38been numerous
46:38times that
46:39you've requested
46:39I speak
46:40with you
46:41and my answer
46:41has been
46:42no
46:43because I'm
46:44scared
46:44that me
46:45speaking up
46:46could potentially
46:47be career
46:47ending
46:48it could
46:49impact my
46:50practice
46:52and it
46:52could lead
46:53to isolation
46:55from my
46:55colleagues
46:56and from
46:57you know
46:58the greater
46:58medical community
46:59I'm willing
47:00to speak
47:01to you
47:01today
47:02because it
47:02is the
47:03right thing
47:03to do
47:04for the
47:04patients
47:05that cannot
47:05speak
47:06that's a
47:07big thing
47:07to do
47:08and I
47:09may be
47:10not even
47:11comprehending
47:12the risks
47:13that I am
47:13actually
47:14taking
47:14and I
47:16hope
47:17that
47:17this will
47:19be a
47:19changing
47:19point
47:20for us
47:20in medicine
47:21where we
47:22do not
47:23blame
47:24the people
47:25that speak
47:25up
47:26but we
47:26look at
47:26how
47:27as a
47:27system
47:28we can
47:28do
47:29better
47:29because
47:30our
47:30patients
47:31deserve
47:32better
47:36these
47:37women
47:37want
47:37that
47:38too
47:38they're
47:39tired
47:40of having
47:40to do
47:41all the
47:42fighting
47:42themselves
47:45I want
47:46all of
47:47those
47:47doctors
47:47that knew
47:48what happened
47:49to speak
47:49up
47:50what would
47:51you say
47:51to Simon
47:52Gordon
47:52if he
47:52was here
47:53today
48:03I
48:03actually
48:04don't
48:04know
48:04what
48:04I'd say
48:04to him
48:05sorry
48:10I
48:10wouldn't
48:11say
48:11anything
48:11to him
48:12because
48:12I
48:12don't
48:12think
48:13I
48:13could
48:13even
48:13look
48:13at
48:13him
48:16I
48:17haven't
48:17had
48:17a
48:17day
48:17of
48:17relief
48:18since
48:18my
48:19surgery
48:21I
48:22would
48:22probably
48:23ask him
48:23how
48:23he
48:23sleeps
48:24at
48:24night
48:24like
48:25was
48:25it
48:25worth
48:25it
49:00if
49:01this
49:01program
49:02has
49:02raised
49:02concerns
49:03for
49:03you
49:03you
49:04can
49:04contact
49:04one
49:05of
49:05these
49:05services
49:05people
49:06who
49:06are
49:06and
49:07can
49:07see
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