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00:03I'm Steve Keogh, a former Scotland Yard murder detective inspector.
00:08I'm going to take you deep inside murder investigations,
00:13opening my contacts book for the first time
00:16to reveal the secrets of what it really takes to be a murder detective
00:21on the front line, exposing how we solve the most heinous of crimes.
00:31Welcome to Secrets of a Murder Detective.
00:48The murder of Milton Papadopoulos in October 2014
00:51was one of Hertfordshire's most challenging cases.
00:55I'm going to be meeting the senior investigating officer on the case
00:57to reveal what really happened, the pressures, the setbacks
01:01and the methods in the investigation that brought the killers to justice.
01:08My name is Jo, and in 2014,
01:12I was a detective chief inspector on a major crime unit.
01:16So this was a particularly challenging investigation
01:20because at the outset, there was no motive or apparent cause of death.
01:31Jo, lovely to meet you.
01:33Yeah, likewise.
01:38Jo, the case we're going to be talking about today is from October 2014.
01:43What were you doing back then? What was your role?
01:45I had literally just landed on the major crime unit.
01:49So in terms of major crime, it's got a different name all around the country.
01:52Yeah.
01:53London, nice to work on MIT team.
01:54Yeah.
01:55It's the same thing essentially, isn't it?
01:56I mean, people call it murder, but it's not just murder.
01:58Yeah.
01:59It's all your serious crime and your murder, rapes, kidnap, extortion.
02:03A call came in to Hertfordshire Police.
02:06Yeah.
02:06Can you tell me about that?
02:07Come in in the evening, that evening, by an ambulance, three nines,
02:13into our hearts control room,
02:15and our on-call SIO had been alerted to the incident.
02:20I think it had been reported as an unexplained or suspicious death
02:23by the initial attending officers.
02:33This incident was in Potters Bar in Hertfordshire, an affluent area, kind of bordering with London.
02:41It was a private, exclusive residential street, probably about ten houses within the sort of cul-de-sac.
02:52So, I established that the victim was Milton Papadopoulos, a Greek male who lived at the address on his own.
03:03We obviously very quickly established who Milton's family were, and he had.
03:08I think, in fact, it was his sister that unfortunately found Milton at the address.
03:18So, it's a large home. It's four or five bedroom, detached.
03:22I walk into the hallway.
03:24The first thing that strikes me as I walk through the door
03:27is the overwhelming smell of bleach and cleaning fluid,
03:32which is unusual.
03:36You walk into the large living room and there is signs of searching.
03:43So, um, there's cupboards open.
03:46There's, um, cupboards ripped off.
03:49There's things in situ that if you thought it may have been a potential burglary are still there.
03:55So, um, the victim's laptop's there.
03:58Um, his phone's there.
04:00There's equipment there, cameras.
04:03There's some drug paraphernalia and some drugs.
04:06And then, at the other side of the living room,
04:10there's a kind of mock fire.
04:13And the victim is in front of that mock fire.
04:17Um, he has what appear to be linear marks on his wrists.
04:24When you say linear marks, what do you know about?
04:26Sorry, um, kind of like marks where someone's been tied up.
04:30On his wrists and his ankles.
04:33And he's got what looks like a little bit of bruising to his face.
04:39And then into the kitchen, there's kitchen cupboards open.
04:43Again, there's bleach.
04:45And as we go upstairs, the victim's bedroom has been extensively searched.
04:51Drawers pulled out, clothes thrown all over.
04:55We know that the victim owned watches, uh, collected watches.
05:01And at the time when we searched and we'd spoken to the family,
05:06we were aware that there was an outstanding watch.
05:09And then where you're talking about the spraying of bleach,
05:13that is really unusual.
05:16Yeah.
05:16It's not the sort of method that your average burglar would use, is it?
05:20No.
05:20A hundred percent.
05:21Yeah.
05:21Yeah.
05:22Spidey sensors are going off.
05:24Joe, describe to me the work that was carried out by the forensic team at Milton's home.
05:28So, the crime scene manager along with the scenes of crime officers,
05:34they will go through a process from start to finish, and that will involve photography.
05:40Um, that will involve taping areas that they identify as potential, um, forensic marks, fingerprints, footprints, areas of potential DNA.
05:54And they'll video the scene too, um, so there'll be a 360 video of the scene, um, to capture that,
06:02um, before obviously anything's disturbed or moved.
06:05You could have looked at photographs of the scene, but it wouldn't have replicated what you're doing here, would it?
06:12It's such an important element to your investigation, isn't it?
06:14Yeah.
06:14I couldn't imagine not going to a scene of a crime that I'm going to be investigating,
06:19because all your senses are heightened at a scene, you know?
06:23Your smell.
06:24Smell.
06:25Your sight.
06:26You know, your hearing.
06:28This was my first case within the major crime unit.
06:31I've got to say, and even the SIO that attended on the night, who was a really experienced SIO,
06:37we were both slightly flummoxed by the scene, as was the crime scene manager.
06:42It was a really difficult scene to interpret.
06:46So it's really healthy to have a few hypotheses in terms of what you think has happened at that scene.
06:52This could have been a burglary that's gone wrong.
06:57There was evidence of drug paraphernalia in the address.
07:01Is it a drug overdose induced by the victim himself?
07:05Or could it have been a potential drug dealer that's come in?
07:10Um, has there been a drug debt?
07:12Or is there a natural cause?
07:14Is there a natural reason for why the victim is dead?
07:20In the UK, if somebody dies suddenly, the police have to attend.
07:24And the reason for that is to get to the bottom of why the person died
07:28and to ensure that nothing suspicious has happened.
07:32And if they believe that a death is suspicious,
07:35then it will be escalated to a murder investigation team.
07:39Now, if there's any doubt, if there's some debate about, well, this could or couldn't be,
07:45the scene will be treated as if it is a murder.
07:48Because what you can't do is get that back later on.
07:51So the death will be treated as suspicious until it can be proven otherwise.
08:04But then it's about preserving the evidence at the scene.
08:07It's about identifying witnesses and it's about identifying suspects.
08:12So that's your kind of starter for ten.
08:16There's a saying in murder investigation,
08:18to understand how a person died, you have to understand that they lived.
08:22Another way of explaining that is victimology.
08:25So this would be an important step for you at the scene,
08:27to understand the victim.
08:29Who was he?
08:32So, Milton Papadopoulos, he was a 41-year-old Greek male.
08:39He was from a very loving family, a wealthy family,
08:45and Milton himself was a wealthy man.
08:48He had several businesses, which he ran with partners.
08:54He lived alone.
08:56He'd recently gone through a breakup in a relationship,
09:01and I think that had a significant impact on him.
09:06I think he'd been in that relationship a while,
09:08and his lifestyle, as was at the time and described by his parents, declined.
09:17His family were aware that he'd started taking drugs.
09:21He was gambling online, spending lots of money,
09:27and he was becoming quite nocturnal.
09:32When we did house-to-house inquiries,
09:34there were reports that there had been incidents
09:37at the address of people turning up, you know,
09:40at varying times of the day,
09:42potentially, you know, supplying Milton.
09:46Whenever anybody dies suddenly, there will be a post-mortem.
09:50Yeah.
09:50But if there's suspicion that it could be a murder,
09:53then it will be done by a forensic pathologist,
09:55and it's a lot more thorough than a normal post-mortem.
09:59Yeah.
09:59And that's going to be a very crucial time for you, isn't it?
10:01The pathologist couldn't rule out natural cause,
10:06couldn't rule out anything around drug overdose, accidental or not.
10:11One of the pathologist's theories was that it could potentially be a smothering,
10:17but there were other explanations.
10:19And he did note the injuries to Milton's hands and ankles,
10:24so some kind of rope or cable tie or, you know,
10:29couldn't specifically say that someone did it.
10:32So in terms of progress for a murder investigation from the post-mortem,
10:40we didn't have anything.
10:43Most murders in this country are done by somebody known to the deceased,
10:48and quite often you've got a situation
10:50where there are only two people in a house
10:51and a partner kills another partner.
10:53It's perfectly clear who has done it.
10:55My name is Mark Fennels, King's Counsel.
10:57In October 2015, I was the leading barrister
11:01who prosecuted the murder trial relating to Milton Papadopoulos.
11:07This case was very different for the police.
11:10This was genuinely, at the beginning, a whodunit.
11:13And to start with, there was some uncertainty the police felt
11:17as to whether or not he died of natural causes
11:20or had indeed died at the hands of others.
11:23But you're in a bit of limbo, essentially, at this early stage.
11:29So you don't know which way it's going to go, do you?
11:32No. I think instinctively, right from the beginning,
11:35I felt that it was a murder.
11:37There were varying opinions on the case
11:40as to who actually agreed with me.
11:43So it was a bit... Even within my team,
11:45there was split view on those early days
11:48as to whether it was a murder or not.
11:50I think there were senior officers
11:52that weren't convinced it was a murder.
11:53You know, two or three of those hypotheses were,
11:56was this an accidental death? Was it an overdose?
12:00So very, very difficult.
12:02Until you get to the point where you have absolute evidence
12:06to prove that it's a murder, then there is pressure.
12:09And there is always pressure on the SIO.
12:11From your superiors and from senior officers, rightly so,
12:15because this is a public purse we're spending.
12:18And, you know, we've got to be shown that we are diligent
12:22and that we are progressing the investigation
12:25and that we are doing everything we need to do.
12:28We did have some marks from the scene.
12:31I think there were four or five marks, blood marks.
12:34And we had some swabs taken from Milton from the post-mortem
12:39that showed on DNA.
12:42So we had swabs from Milton
12:45that actually were outstanding DNA markers.
12:50So effectively, someone has touched Milton.
12:54We don't know who's touched him.
12:55The problem with DNA and it being so sensitive,
12:59an ambulance person was to have looked at him
13:02or a police officer or a family member.
13:05They could leave their own DNA on him,
13:07so loaded onto the DNA database.
13:11Any result on that?
13:12So, essentially, whoever that blood belonged to
13:17wasn't related to Milton.
13:19No.
13:20And had never been arrested before and provided their DNA.
13:22Yes, correct.
13:23So I came away feeling I don't really know...
13:27I don't know what the events were
13:30that led up to the victim's death.
13:45It's a fact that murders can be miscategorised,
13:49and there can be a number of reasons for that.
13:52One could be the killer staging a crime
13:54to make it look like something else,
13:56maybe an accident or a suicide.
13:58Another reason could be that there isn't an obvious cause of death.
14:04Not all murders jump out at you when you're at a crime scene.
14:06Not everyone's stabbed, not everyone's shot.
14:09And it's those crimes that can be mistaken.
14:12And when we look at Milton's death,
14:15particularly when we enter into the realms of drug use,
14:19I can see a scenario where his death was put down
14:24to some kind of misadventure to do with the drugs,
14:27which would have allowed those killers
14:30to get away with what they did to him.
14:38You're treating Milton's death as a murder,
14:41so within a murder investigation,
14:43there'll be different strands of investigation.
14:46And in general, there are five main parts to that.
14:51There would be CCTV, witnesses,
14:55phones, as in mobile phones, telephones,
14:58forensics and intelligence.
15:01So if we go through those separately,
15:04maybe if we start with CCTV,
15:06was there anything in and around Milton's home
15:08that'd give you a clue as to the comings and goings there?
15:11No, we didn't have... We had no footage at all.
15:14What about in terms of witnesses?
15:17So, obviously, one of the main lines of inquiry
15:19is going to be house to house.
15:20And actually, the house to house
15:22was what uncovered our one and only significant witness.
15:31The witness from the house to house had been at home
15:34when she had heard a vehicle pull up outside Milton's address
15:38and had heard somebody knocking on the door.
15:41The witness heard Milton answer the door
15:44and say to whoever was at the door,
15:46go away, you're not allowed to come in,
15:48or words to that effect,
15:49which indicates that potentially he knew
15:52who the individual or individuals were at the door.
15:57She then says that she heard
15:59what she describes as Milton piercingly screaming.
16:05So, with this, she actually phones her mum and says,
16:09Mum, I think there's something going on next door.
16:12But her mum actually said,
16:15take a picture of the vehicle that's parked outside.
16:18Wow.
16:18Which was absolutely critical.
16:22So, what did the image show that she took?
16:25So, the image showed a white van parked outside
16:28Milton's address around about the time
16:30that we believed that the murder took place.
16:34And it showed the registration plate of the vehicle.
16:37So, that now becomes the main line of inquiry.
16:40And, obviously, it was identified very quickly
16:45that those plates were false.
16:47So, yeah, our focus really became on, at that time,
16:51on that vehicle.
16:53What is the true identity of that vehicle?
16:56Who is the owner of that vehicle?
16:58And where has that vehicle come from
17:00to end up in that location at the time of Milton's death?
17:06It was a golden nugget moment, as we call it.
17:08You know, when you get those little nuggets that you need
17:11just to push you on for moving on
17:15to the next stage of the investigation.
17:17One of the important elements of any murder investigation
17:21is to build yourself a good timeline.
17:23Yeah.
17:24And a good way of doing that is to base it around telephones.
17:28Yeah, we did start looking at Milton's phone.
17:33We did a lot of work on the phone.
17:35And we did a lot of work on unknown numbers to try and locate.
17:43If I'm looking at a perpetrator's mobile phone or computer,
17:47quite often will it be briefed by the SIO
17:51as to what they're looking for.
17:54My name is Chris Watts.
17:55I've now been working in digital forensics for 35 years.
18:00I've covered murders, IP theft, rape and indecent images of children.
18:09If I was looking at a victim's mobile phone or computer,
18:13I would be looking for any connection to the suspect,
18:17look for any reasons why the victim may have been attacked.
18:22What is their history? What is their background?
18:25Are they involved in drugs?
18:27Do they own people money?
18:29Have they been threatened?
18:31What emails have been sent?
18:33What have been received?
18:39Was there any indication that would help you in your investigation?
18:43Very little.
18:45Joe, when there's an unexplained death and a post-mortem takes place,
18:49there will be certain tests that will be carried out.
18:51One of those would be take blood from the dead person,
18:56send it off and check for toxicology.
18:59I'm assuming that took place.
19:01Yes, it did, yes.
19:03But the levels of drug in Milton's system
19:06were at a level that would not have caused his death.
19:09It still left the theory of potential smothering
19:14and obviously Ape being murdered by a third party.
19:21It was frustrating for the team to determine how Milton died.
19:27And, of course, the family really want to know how Milton died
19:30and if someone is responsible for his death.
19:33And we felt huge pressure.
19:35You know, internally, self-pressure.
19:39You know, to, we want to do a job for the family.
19:42You know, we want to determine what happened here.
19:45So there is a structured review process
19:48within a murder investigation.
19:50So within seven days, you are being reviewed
19:55in terms of where the investigation is.
19:58So huge pressure on me as an SIO
20:03because murder inquiries are resource-intensive.
20:06I mean, you're probably talking on a murder inquiry,
20:1120 to 30, maybe more, you know, on that full-time.
20:15You're still doing a new job that you don't want to be...
20:18Yeah, absolutely. You don't want to be rocking the boat
20:19in your first week. Yeah, no, absolutely.
20:21At one point, very early on, there was a question
20:24over whether this should go to a more experienced SIO,
20:27which is a valid, you know, question
20:29because it was a difficult investigation.
20:30And I absolutely begged and pleaded
20:33with the, you know, senior managers to keep it
20:36because I was invested in it.
20:38I was invested in the family.
20:39I fully, fully understand why you did that.
20:42Yeah, not in an arrogant way.
20:43We absolutely would, one way or another,
20:47find out what happened to Milton.
20:48And that's what, for me, it was all about.
20:58Just looking for that golden nugget,
21:00that little bit of information
21:02that's just gonna help you start to crack the case
21:06or start to uncover that sequence of events.
21:11Yeah, there was a lot of work going on in the background,
21:14a lot of intelligence coming in,
21:15a lot of investigative work going on
21:17in relation to identifying a suspect.
21:23When working on high-profile cases,
21:26the line of communication is generally kept open
21:29so that the SIO, or nominated individual,
21:33can contact the investigator very easily by phone
21:38because quite often these investigations are fast-moving
21:41and a piece of data may become known
21:43and require urgent investigation.
21:46In the case of Milton Papadopoulos,
21:50the police used mobile phone data,
21:53call data records and ANPR.
21:55Thanks to the actions of Milton's neighbour,
21:58if there was some third-party involvement in his death,
22:02you had a clue as to who this may be.
22:04You had this van.
22:05Mm.
22:06On the one hand,
22:07it was a brilliant piece of evidence
22:09in terms of potentially identifying them,
22:11but on the other,
22:11it was on false plates,
22:13which was gonna make it difficult
22:14to identify the true identity of the van.
22:17Yeah.
22:17How did you go around achieving that?
22:20You'll have ANPR cameras that will record vehicles.
22:24It was a two-part inquiry.
22:27So painstaking work.
22:29I mean, it's a white van on the outskirts of London,
22:33travelling during the day.
22:35How many white vans do you think are travelling through London?
22:40So it was the CCTV teams working painstakingly
22:47to go back from Potter's Bar
22:51to take that vehicle back
22:53to try and find where that vehicle came from originally.
22:57You might have roadwork cameras.
22:59You might have speed cameras.
23:01People work, you know,
23:02you might have where they're working on the road cameras.
23:05Was there anything outstanding about the van?
23:08Was there any markings on it,
23:10wording down the side, anything like that?
23:12No.
23:12The only thing was the ladders.
23:14Yeah, so if you're looking for ladders,
23:16you can rule out the vans that don't have the ladders.
23:18Yeah.
23:18But it's still painstaking work.
23:20Still a lot of... a lot of vehicles,
23:22and when you find that vehicle,
23:24it's proven that that is actually that vehicle,
23:26because it's back on its original plate.
23:28So when it was on its original plate,
23:30at what point did it switch to a pulse plate?
23:34Did that happen?
23:35Yes.
23:37Tell me about that.
23:39Absolute hours of trolling that CCTV
23:42and then plotting that vehicle back to when it switched plate.
23:48Then, of course, you've got the opportunity for a registered keeper.
23:52Well, if it's registered, you know,
23:55we're going to have an address for this vehicle now.
23:56How did it feel when that happened?
23:59Yeah, I mean, you know, those breakthroughs in an investigation are absolutely...
24:04You know, they fire the team up.
24:08With painstaking CCTV work from the location of that address,
24:13we had to send a team up to Dorset to work with the local force there.
24:17The owner of the vehicle was initially spoken to and treated as a witness.
24:24Because it was very quickly established that the owner had lent his vehicle to a known associate of the gentleman,
24:33known as Arkadia Sarkovsky.
24:36We referred to this individual as Arik during the investigation.
24:40Then we began background work, intelligence work,
24:44trying to establish who Arik was and then any associates that he may have.
24:51Through the intelligence work,
24:53we found out that he was part of a larger organised crime group,
24:59originally from Poland,
25:01but that he was living with his family in and around the London area.
25:07We then looked to arrest Arik.
25:12So, Arik, what did you find out about him?
25:15So, Arik was not known to us in the UK, completely under the radar.
25:24At that point, obviously, we didn't know who his associates were
25:29because we hadn't done any phone work,
25:33because we'd only just identified him.
25:35So, following Arik's arrest,
25:37the main lines of inquiry then are centring around Arik,
25:42around his movements, around his associates,
25:46around his vehicles,
25:48and getting information from overseas with our Polish colleagues
25:54in terms of previous convictions and previous court cases,
25:59is a challenging and a lengthy process.
26:03But actually, when we did get that information,
26:06it was clear we were dealing with an organised crime group from Poland
26:13that had infiltrated into the UK and were dealing in drugs.
26:28Milton came from a good background, a wealthy background,
26:32but his life took a downturn.
26:34He found himself in a situation he wasn't accustomed to.
26:39It was almost like a jungle he was now in,
26:41a jungle where people would target people like Milton for his wealth.
26:47The people that came to his house that night
26:50wouldn't have given it a second thought to hurt him,
26:54to get that wealth from him.
27:02Uranus presented to you information that suggests
27:05that Arik was in and around the area of Milton's home.
27:09Yes, not immediately,
27:11and it did take, you know, quite some time.
27:18Sometimes, criminals make mistakes,
27:20and when you look at a computer or a mobile phone,
27:24you can find a nugget of information, a nugget of evidence.
27:28In the case of Milton's murder, we had a suspect.
27:32We were able to get hold of that person's phone,
27:36and then used the call data records and call logs on the phone
27:41to confirm that the suspect had been in the area of Milton's home
27:47at the time of the murder.
27:50I know that he denied any knowledge of Milton or Milton's address
27:56or Milton's family during his interviews.
27:59Obviously, he gave us no information in relation to anyone else associated
28:05with that vehicle and really tried to distance himself from that vehicle.
28:11We clearly had outstanding DNA samples at the scene
28:15that we were keen to match to somebody.
28:19One of the first things we did when Arik was brought into custody
28:22was fast-track his DNA for the outstanding samples that we had at the scene.
28:27He was negative against any of those samples at the scene,
28:31which, as a SIO, frustratingly, the first lead we have
28:36identifying Arik and arresting Arik,
28:39we were in a position where we didn't have sufficient evidence
28:42to charge him at that time, and so he was released on bail.
28:47The phone work was immense, and once we had Arik's phone,
28:53we were able to identify common users, common callers.
28:58So your task now is to try and identify the users of these phones.
29:03How did you go about doing that?
29:04So the difficulty with, once you have phone numbers,
29:07is the attribution to an individual,
29:10because most people will have a monthly contract
29:14to be registered to them and it will be at their address.
29:17Criminals don't tend to have those kind of phones.
29:20They tend to have phones that are easily disposable.
29:25So we had all the phone numbers for the suspects.
29:31We just didn't have any names to put to the phone at that point.
29:35So what we actually find, or one of the detectives finds out,
29:41is that Arik has been involved in some sort of road traffic accident,
29:46and this was some months previous.
29:50Arik, who was driving at the time, had been at fault
29:53and had offered to pay there and then for the damage,
29:58and was described as, you know, coming out with wads of money.
30:02When the gentleman that was involved in the accident
30:08spoke to Arik and his occupant,
30:11he asked for identification because he felt a little concerned
30:15about who he was taking money from and who he was dealing with.
30:18So he actually took photographs
30:20of the driving licences of Arik
30:23and the driving licence of the passenger.
30:27And the driving licence of the passenger
30:29was a man by the name of Sebastian Kimmel,
30:32who became our second suspect.
30:36So now you have to build up an intelligence picture of Kimmel.
30:41What was that telling you?
30:43So Sebastian Kimmel was an associate of Arik.
30:47Again, he was living in London, unknown to UK policing.
30:53He lived there with his family, a young family.
30:55He was, again, a Polish national.
30:57Both were known in Poland.
31:00They were and had been part of a serious organised crime group
31:04in Poland, responsible for drug trafficking.
31:08Kimmel had a previous conviction
31:11for being in possession of explosives
31:13and some significant assault charges against Kimmel.
31:19So we knew at this point
31:22that we were dealing with a serious individual, particularly Kimmel.
31:28So that kind of changed the arrest strategy somewhat.
31:32It's quite frightening, actually, isn't it?
31:34Yeah.
31:41Knowing what we knew about Sebastian,
31:45we knew that in terms of an arrest strategy,
31:48it was going to have to be planned.
31:50It was going to have to be supported with colleagues from London,
31:54because at this point we knew we were dealing with a dangerous individual.
32:01So the arrest was executed without incident.
32:08Interestingly, when the team went through Sebastian Kimmel's door,
32:14he immediately put himself on the floor
32:16and put his hands behind his back, which was unusual.
32:23At his address, there were significant volume of mobile phones,
32:30um, burner phones, as we call them.
32:33So he was arrested in and around the London area.
32:36He was brought directly back to Hertfordshire,
32:39and the priority at this time was the DNA,
32:43because we were still trying to match a suspect to our scene.
32:49So the absolute priority was to get that sample from Sebastian
32:54and to establish if we had a match at the scene.
32:58So fast-track DNA, he gets interviewed for three days,
33:03because we get extended custody time limits.
33:05So the blood that's within the footmark...
33:09Yeah.
33:10..in Milton's house...
33:11..comes back to Sebastian Kimmel.
33:13Same person.
33:14How did that feel?
33:16Um, euphoric.
33:17That was the moment when we knew that we got a case.
33:24We knew we got the right people.
33:26I mean, just over the moon, for the team, for the family,
33:32um, for my career.
33:36Um, no, you know, it was a real...
33:39But you say that as a flippant remark,
33:41but you've dug your heels in...
33:44Yeah.
33:45..when early on,
33:48people were trying to push you in a very different direction.
33:51Yeah.
33:51I've always been a bit like that, though.
33:53I've always kind of stuck my neck out.
33:56If I think I'm doing the right thing.
33:58Well, I joined in 1989.
34:01So I was 19 years of age,
34:03so I was very, very young.
34:05Yeah, and it was predominantly a male environment at that time,
34:09without a shadow of a doubt.
34:11Remember, at the time,
34:13your uniform issue was effectively a skirt,
34:17uh, culottes, tights or stockings.
34:20You know, and you'd be on a foot chase with somebody in a skirt,
34:23trying to jump over a fence.
34:25You know, it's not the greatest, uh, thing.
34:28I mean, 1989, we didn't have quick cuffs,
34:30we didn't have spray,
34:32you know, we didn't have taser.
34:34So I was literally handed a baton,
34:37uh, which was literally that size,
34:40and then I was issued with a handbag to put it in.
34:43Uh, whilst the, uh, my male colleagues were being handed full-size batons,
34:48it's a fair, it's a fair balance now.
34:50I think there are so many women, senior women, you know,
34:54much more senior than I was in policing now.
34:56Things are very different to how they were.
34:58You've got that 100% match with Kimmel and the blood in Milton's house.
35:04When we disclosed the DNA results,
35:07he obviously broke the time of the solicitor
35:10and came back with a prepared statement.
35:12His account was that he had gone to the address to collect a drug debt
35:16and that on entering the premises, Milton had become aggressive
35:20and a struggle had ensued where Kimmel and an unknown male,
35:26who he refused to name, had restrained Milton.
35:30Whilst restraining him, Kimmel had become aware
35:33that he was struggling to breathe.
35:34He says that he put Milton in the recovery position,
35:39went and washed his face because during the melee,
35:42he took a hit to the face where he got a nosebleed.
35:47And as far as he was concerned, when they left the premises,
35:49Milton was alive.
35:50But for Kimmel, there's my prepared statement.
35:53Yeah.
35:53That's all you're having, no more.
35:55And subsequently charged and not given bail.
36:00And you've not just got the right people,
36:02you've got some horrible people.
36:04Yeah, and now I'm going to lock them up.
36:06But before we lock them up,
36:08we're going to find out who else was with them
36:11because we knew there were others.
36:13We identified a third suspect, Christoph Turledge.
36:18He was identified as the person responsible for the theft
36:23of the number plates.
36:25He was subsequently arrested.
36:28He gave no comment to all interviews.
36:32He wasn't linked to the scene forensically,
36:36but with the evidence at that time that we had,
36:40with the phone analysis between him, Sebastian Kimmel and Arik,
36:46again, we had sufficient at that time
36:49to charge him with conspiracy to murder.
36:53So the final suspect was Jacques Grignac.
36:57We identified through, again, the work that had been done already
37:01on the phone and the association and the movement.
37:05By the time, unfortunately, that we had identified him as our suspect,
37:09we were made aware by Thames Valley Police that he had been murdered
37:16during a burglary within the Thames Valley Police area,
37:20which was a complete shock for us
37:23because we were setting up for the final arrest
37:26and made things difficult for court
37:30because we've now got four suspects.
37:33We've got three defendants going on trial.
37:36And one thing as well that we all learn in murder investigations
37:40when you take them to court,
37:42if you've got someone who was at the crime scene but not at court,
37:47it's very easy for everyone else at court
37:49to point a finger at that fourth person.
37:51Yes.
37:52And that's always a danger
37:53when somebody you know was involved isn't standing trial with them.
37:56Yeah, and we did obviously match his DNA,
38:00establishing that he was actually at the scene
38:02with Sebastian Kimmel.
38:05I had three defendants,
38:07and they were all pleading not guilty to murder.
38:10There was an enormous amount of work to do
38:13to get the trial ready.
38:15And that's what the police team,
38:17you know, with the assistance of the CPS
38:18and our barristers in the case,
38:21did over the couple of months before September
38:23when the trial started.
38:37The men that killed Milton were seasoned criminals.
38:41They'd been in prison in Poland.
38:43They knew how the police worked.
38:46And they took steps to mask themselves in terms of being identified.
38:51Now, when you're dealing with criminals like this,
38:55undoubtedly it makes your investigation more difficult
38:59because they are taking steps not to be caught.
39:04If it wasn't for Joe's ability to stand up for herself,
39:07there's a really strong likelihood
39:08that Milton's death would never have been treated as a murder,
39:13and those that killed him would have got away with it.
39:23You're there day one of the trial.
39:25Mm.
39:26You know that there's no way you can take for granted
39:29that which way the jury are going to go.
39:32Well, it was my first trial at the Old Bailey.
39:34Yeah, seven-week trial.
39:36I did get to see some of the expert evidence
39:39presented and cross-examined.
39:42And I got to see Mark presenting the case.
39:45Where people are jointly responsible for any alleged crime,
39:49the usual preference is to try them together.
39:52There are a number of different reasons.
39:55One of it's practical.
39:56If you've got one set of witnesses,
39:58why should they give evidence more than once?
40:00You know, they're entitled to give their evidence once
40:03and be asked questions by all the defendants.
40:05And also, you want consistent verdicts,
40:08and you're much more likely to get that
40:10if you're in a situation where the same jury
40:12is making decisions about everybody
40:14who's alleged to be involved.
40:16The trial lasted for seven weeks,
40:18and during that time, we had every expert give evidence.
40:23The majority of the evidence came from the analysts
40:27and the forensic work and the CCTV,
40:33proving that the vehicle that was at the address
40:37was the said vehicle that we later identified.
40:42Where's the fourth defendant?
40:43That's going to be the jury's question.
40:45And it's not a question we're going to be able to answer,
40:47because we're not going to be able to disclose
40:49what's happened to the fourth defendant at that point.
40:53Because by inference...
40:56Yes.
40:57..if they're associated with someone who's been murdered...
40:59Yeah.
40:59..it paints a picture of them as...
41:02Yeah.
41:03..not everyday people...
41:04Yeah.
41:05..and potentially could be consciously or subconsciously
41:07used by the jury against them.
41:09..so it could prejudice the case.
41:11Um, so that added another twist.
41:15Right, so there's no doubt...
41:16No doubt.
41:17..that he was at the scene.
41:18Yeah.
41:18..but because he's dead...
41:19Yeah.
41:20..he can't stand trial.
41:21Yeah.
41:21..and there's always that danger
41:22that they could start blaming him.
41:24Absolutely.
41:25And actually, at trial,
41:27they all had different counsel.
41:30So that's exactly what happened at trial.
41:39They all argued that Mr. Riniak,
41:43the man who'd been killed in the interim,
41:46had been with them and that he'd gone berserk
41:49and he was responsible for any injuries
41:51that Mr. Papadopoulos had suffered,
41:53that this was not part of their plan.
41:55Of course, the prosecution position in those circumstances
41:58is very convenient, isn't it?
42:00You've never said this before.
42:01Now you've found out that Riniak is dead.
42:04You're blaming him
42:05and it means you can point the finger
42:06in a different direction.
42:09So, the different defendants
42:11said slightly different things
42:12when it came their turn to advance their cases.
42:16Mr. Kimmel, whose DNA was linked to Mr. Papadopoulos,
42:20said this was all about a debt collection exercise
42:22that had gone badly wrong.
42:25Mr. Sarkowski said
42:26that he was less clear about it.
42:29There was some internet research
42:30from his internet browser suggesting
42:32he'd been searching for Rolex watches.
42:35We know that there was an outstanding Rolex watch
42:38which was valued at between £20,000 and £25,000
42:42that we never recovered.
42:46So, I was there at the beginning,
42:47kind of middle and the end.
42:48It was pretty long.
42:49It was a long...
42:50The reason for that was because of the magnitude of the work,
42:54the phone work,
42:55and the actual complicated interpretation of that work.
42:58For a jury, you know, you've really got to break that down.
43:01So, yeah, seven-week trial.
43:04Family came in for verdict.
43:06I think they were out for two days, the jury.
43:10Yes.
43:11The jury walk in and the clerk of the court will ask them.
43:14Yeah.
43:15Have you reached a verdict on which you all agreed?
43:17Yeah.
43:17What came back?
43:18So, guilty, Kimmel for murder.
43:23Conspiracy to murder.
43:25Arik was found not guilty of murder,
43:27but convicted of manslaughter and conspiracy to rob,
43:32as was Turledge, same as Arik.
43:35So, those two were sentenced to 13 years,
43:40and Kimmel was sentenced to life.
43:43Had we had the fourth defendant in the box,
43:47I would suggest that he would have been sentenced to life equally.
43:57People often ask about motives,
44:00and in this case, it seemed most likely
44:03that these three, possibly four,
44:06had targeted Mr Papadopoulos
44:08because he was wealthy and lived alone.
44:10Possibly that they could pretend to get into his house
44:13on some pretext or another.
44:14And once in there, they could overpower him,
44:17tie him up, possibly mobilise him,
44:19possibly silence him by gagging him,
44:21rob him of his watches and then disappear.
44:24I don't think that Milton had a drug debt.
44:27I think Milton was a wealthy individual.
44:30I don't think finance would have been an issue for Milton.
44:33So, I think the motive was financial.
44:37Did they intend to kill Milton when they went into the address?
44:41I don't know.
44:42Only they know that.
44:44Did they kill Milton while they were at the address?
44:46Yes, they did.
44:48You came onto the major crime team
44:50as a brand new female DCI.
44:55Mm.
44:56Undoubtedly, the spotlight was going to be on you.
44:59It could have been dismissed as a non-crime,
45:03meaning that Milton wouldn't have got that justice.
45:06Yeah.
45:07But the person that I've met today,
45:10I can see that your personality was never, ever going to allow that.
45:15And, yes, 100%, your team helped you deliver that justice.
45:21But without you leading them,
45:24I'm convinced that this wouldn't have ended up as it did.
45:29The family were grateful.
45:31And I just want to say,
45:33on behalf of everybody else that is listening to this,
45:37thank you for being you.
45:40You.
45:41I don't think anyone's ever said...
45:43I felt quite emotional.
45:44I don't think anyone's ever said that to me.
45:46You did amazing.
45:51The investigation into Milton's murder
45:53was the first that Jo had ever led.
45:56I can think back to my time there,
45:58and you're determined to show everyone
46:01that you can do a good job.
46:03For her, then, to be put into a position
46:06where she had to fight to keep the case,
46:09and to fight to prove that this was, in fact, a murder,
46:13for me, reflects on her personality, her determination,
46:17and the fact that, without her,
46:19these people could have got away with murder.
46:21And that's all.
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