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00:00Maternity leave, it's misleading.
00:02There's often very little resting involved.
00:04Mothers are constantly told to enjoy every minute of having a newborn.
00:08But what if you're just exhausted, physically broken and frankly bored?
00:12There is no other job in the world you go into injured.
00:15You really are, if you're pretty much in line with most women,
00:19going into that new world with something.
00:22And you've got to heal.
00:24This week I'm joined by BBC Radio 4 presenter, podcaster and author Emma Barnett,
00:28who is taking a sledgehammer to the toxic positivity of early motherhood.
00:32Anyone who coined that crappy, awful thing, too posh to push,
00:37whenever that came out, fuck you.
00:38We discuss the physical realities of the maternal frontline,
00:42the taboo of missing your pre-baby identity
00:44and the daily survival strategies you actually need
00:47to make it through this life-altering period.
00:50Before we get into it, please click follow on the show on your podcast player
00:53or if you're watching on YouTube, click subscribe.
00:56Emma Barnett, broadcaster, podcaster and author of a new book on motherhood.
01:01Welcome to Well Enough.
01:02Thank you for having me.
01:03It's so great to speak to you because you've written this book
01:05and it's called Maternity Service.
01:07And that name is really interesting because you maintain that
01:11maternity leave is not really maternity leave.
01:13You're always on.
01:14It's more like service.
01:15Can you tell me a bit more about what inspired that?
01:18I mean, I wrote this for myself essentially,
01:21or should have come out when I first had a child,
01:23but I actually only got the minerals, shall we say,
01:26or the headspace slightly, about two minutes longer
01:28when I was having my second child.
01:30And, you know, listen, it took me six rounds of IVF
01:33to have our second child, one for the first,
01:35but many years of trying and perhaps we'll get on to
01:38no diagnosis of endometriosis for 21 years.
01:41That does tend to take up quite a lot of headspace.
01:44But when I became a mother the first time,
01:48I just found it one of the most,
01:50apart from the extraordinary elements of being responsible
01:55and creating a whole other human with the person I loved,
01:58and it never, you know, for a long time thinking
02:01it would never happen, I was a stranger to myself.
02:06Everything about my identity had shifted.
02:09I was groping around for language.
02:13I came across the word matrescence,
02:15which now is very regular to talk about if you know a bit.
02:19But I'm talking about in 2018, you know, nearly 10 years ago.
02:24And this was like a niche interest sport, you know,
02:27and to your area of expertise, wellness, health,
02:30we now know, and they knew then,
02:32it just wasn't popularized.
02:34Women's mags were writing nothing or very little.
02:37We now know your brain changes when you become a mother.
02:39It also changes when you become a father,
02:41but it seismically changes so that you can care
02:45and you can learn to be a carer and be a parent.
02:48And the identity shift alongside that, you know,
02:52frustrating me personally,
02:54fascinating me,
02:56upsetting me,
02:58enrapturing me,
02:59all of those things.
02:59And I only found some of the words on the second tour of duty.
03:04And I use the word duty with the word loving deliberately.
03:09And it occurred to me that maternity service
03:12was a much more accurate phrase because,
03:16you know,
03:16just one more thing in an initial answer to say,
03:19which is that the word service is quite unfashionable.
03:23We associate it with military service,
03:25perhaps a tea service.
03:26If you're being old school,
03:27I like tea as I've got one here on the go.
03:29Very nice.
03:30But it really has,
03:32when you look at the roots of that word
03:35and the definition of it,
03:36it has love at the heart of it.
03:38When I'm chopping the ninth cucumber
03:40or red pepper of the week,
03:42because they can't possibly eat green,
03:43what children,
03:44what luck for them.
03:47You got to dig deep for that.
03:49There's a lot of parenthood
03:50and specifically motherhood
03:53that is deadening.
03:54And I find service really helpful as a framework
03:58because it speaks to the love,
04:01the repetitiveness
04:01and the digging deep
04:03that one needs to do to do it.
04:07Do you find that the expectation
04:09and reality of motherhood
04:10have been quite different then?
04:11Do you think that's a common experience
04:12for a lot of people?
04:14I'm not a good person
04:15to ask about certain things around,
04:16about anything to do with expectations
04:18because true journalist style,
04:20I engage last minute.
04:22So I did not read about being a mother
04:24before becoming a mother.
04:25There is a reality to that as well,
04:27which is I didn't think I'd get there.
04:29But I also don't like to engage
04:31with something until I have to.
04:32So I'm not being churnish to say you're right
04:35and I know you're right
04:37in the sense of I've interviewed lots of people,
04:39not least when I was hosting Women's Hour
04:40around that exact point.
04:42However, for me personally,
04:44I just entered it so naively
04:48and then figured out as I went.
04:51I think a lot of people say
04:53they're never quite prepared
04:54for what happens though.
04:55I mean, how much prior preparation
04:57can you really do?
04:58You're experiencing something
04:59for the first time
05:00in your own body, in your own way.
05:02So in many ways,
05:03you are kind of on your own there.
05:05I mean, ultimately,
05:07and more so than ever,
05:08we are selfish people.
05:10We shouldn't be, but we are.
05:12And I would say all those women
05:15who worry about,
05:17you know, I wrote this book
05:18in a stream of consciousness.
05:19It wasn't meant to be a book.
05:20It was just something to give to,
05:21like a map to another woman.
05:23And I got a message
05:24just before arriving here
05:26from someone who got it
05:27when it was hardback,
05:28it's now coming out as paperback,
05:30saying,
05:31thank you.
05:32You've managed to articulate
05:33a sleep-deprived time
05:35some of how this has to be
05:37and how I've been.
05:38And that's why I did it.
05:40But all those people who say
05:43there's too much said now,
05:45there's too much written,
05:46it's utter bollocks.
05:47The reason why it's bollocks,
05:48as in it'll put women off,
05:49the reason why it's bollocks,
05:50and we know we've got
05:52demographic issues
05:53in developed countries.
05:54We know women and men
05:56are not having children
05:57and it ain't nothing to do
05:58with honesty memoirs.
05:59It's to do with house prices,
06:01the cost of living,
06:02and realities of living
06:05in a worse-off situation
06:06than your parents
06:07for the first time
06:08in a generation.
06:08It's not because women like me
06:10have decided
06:11in a very early wave
06:13of literature,
06:13may I say,
06:14to tell certain things
06:16as they are.
06:17Yeah, there's certainly
06:17not too much of that
06:18I wouldn't have said.
06:19But that was a long way
06:20of answering your question
06:21to say,
06:22if you are not having a child
06:23or if you are not pregnant
06:25or if you're not trying
06:26to become a dad,
06:27you ain't going to engage.
06:29So I don't think
06:31you can prepare
06:31because you only engage
06:33with anything in this world
06:34when it starts to affect you.
06:36But do you think framing,
06:37reframing the idea
06:39of motherhood
06:40as a tour of duty
06:40actually stands
06:42to help the mental health
06:43of a lot of new mothers?
06:44Because I think it could.
06:45It could, yes.
06:46I think, you know,
06:48there is an idea
06:49for the little I had engaged.
06:51I was having a winter baby.
06:52You have that nesting period
06:54for the first few months.
06:55This is the first time around.
06:56Similar actually
06:57with our daughter.
06:58And then I thought
06:59it's gin o'clock
07:00or, you know,
07:01tea o'clock
07:02or whatever o'clock
07:03it could be
07:04with all the new mum friends
07:05I've made on NCT
07:07or whatever the local group
07:08is in your area.
07:09And that's not it.
07:12That's part of it.
07:13And they are your sister,
07:15sisters in arms,
07:15as I say,
07:17extending the military
07:18metaphor slightly.
07:18But I do think
07:20I would have benefited
07:22from dispelling
07:24a few myths beforehand
07:25while also preparing
07:28for friendships
07:29and bonding
07:31that I couldn't have imagined
07:33in a good way.
07:34Well, you talk a lot
07:35about the, you know,
07:37the realities
07:37of the situation
07:38as well in the book.
07:39You talk about
07:39the physical impact
07:41and, you know,
07:42prioritising physical care
07:43when your body feels broken.
07:45You talk about things
07:46like herniated discs
07:47and hypotonic pelvic floors.
07:49I did have a few things, yeah.
07:50Yeah, it's important
07:51to talk about that stuff
07:52but also, I guess,
07:53to offer actionable advice
07:54on how to prioritise care.
07:56I mean, how do you think
07:57women can do that
07:57when they've got to look
07:58after a newborn?
07:59Well, I do say
08:02that there is no other job
08:04in the world
08:04you go into injured.
08:06I mean,
08:07you really are,
08:09if you're pretty much
08:11in line with most women,
08:12going into that line of duty,
08:15that new world,
08:17that, you know,
08:18motherhood bubble
08:19with something.
08:20Perhaps not fit for service.
08:22Exactly.
08:22And you've got to heal
08:24and that is,
08:25it's hard
08:26when you've gone,
08:27as I had,
08:28which I think a lot
08:28of modern women do,
08:30working women,
08:31straight from my job,
08:33a week off,
08:34in which I didn't really know
08:35what to do with myself,
08:36I was huge,
08:37really swollen,
08:38had a massage,
08:39tried to do a bit of self-care
08:40but it was just uncomfortable
08:42and then,
08:43you know,
08:44you're all in
08:44and so I think,
08:47listen,
08:47leaning on people,
08:48trying to do all of that
08:50but you've not had any sleep
08:52so things don't really
08:53make any sense
08:54and you've just got to
08:56bumble and mumble
08:56your way through
08:57as best as you can
08:58but I do think,
09:00for instance,
09:01I didn't know
09:02what a hypertonic
09:03pelvic floor was.
09:04Everyone had told me
09:05I wouldn't be able
09:05to jump on a trampoline
09:06afterwards
09:07and I would wet myself
09:08all the time.
09:08As it turned out,
09:09I didn't have a vaginal birth,
09:11I had two C-sections
09:12in the end,
09:12not at the same time
09:13and recovering from operations,
09:16anyone who coined
09:17that crappy,
09:18awful thing
09:19too posh to push
09:20whenever that came out,
09:22whoever that male
09:24or female newspaper editor is,
09:26fuck you.
09:28Sorry,
09:28I shouldn't say that
09:29but it's completely
09:31the hardest thing
09:32I've ever done.
09:32I've never had
09:33a proper operation before.
09:34I had one with my endometriosis
09:36but I'd never had anything else.
09:38This was stomach surgery
09:40and the recovery
09:41from that was horrendous,
09:42had complications
09:43in my bladder,
09:43the catheter,
09:44the whole thing
09:44but,
09:45so it wasn't easier
09:46to have a C-section
09:47and it wasn't not a birth
09:49and all those awful things
09:50but the hypertonic
09:52pelvic floor,
09:53I did not know
09:54what that meant
09:55and I was standing in,
09:57one of my keeping in touch days
09:58the first time around
09:59was crazy.
10:01I presented
10:02Andrew Marr's programme
10:03on BBC One
10:0412 weeks after
10:05our son was born
10:06as he was going off
10:07on medical leave
10:08and very kindly
10:10the male editor
10:11still asked me
10:12to come and substitute
10:13and I was like
10:14okay,
10:16still breastfeeding
10:17but I felt like
10:19I couldn't breathe.
10:19I didn't know
10:20what was going on
10:21and I was obviously
10:22you know,
10:23anxious to make sure
10:24we got the programme right.
10:25I'd never presented it before.
10:27It's a big programme.
10:28It's now Laura Koonsberg show
10:29in the same slot
10:30and I just couldn't relax.
10:33I didn't understand
10:34what was going on
10:36and it turns out
10:37you can have the opposite
10:38of a loose pelvic floor.
10:39You can have one
10:40that's too tight afterwards.
10:41Now cue all the jokes
10:42about tightness
10:43and everything
10:44but it feels awful.
10:46You've got to learn
10:47to relax it
10:48and I don't know
10:49if my body
10:49had seized up
10:50after the C-section.
10:51I'd had this issue
10:52with my bladder.
10:53It's quite common
10:54with people
10:54now I know
10:55with women
10:55who have endometriosis
10:56and have had their pain
10:57levels just hammered
10:59week after week.
11:01It happened to me
11:01after cervical cancer
11:02surgery.
11:03I had some of my cervix
11:04taken away
11:05and then the
11:05hypotonic pelvic floor
11:06followed.
11:07It's so unpleasant.
11:08It's a really bizarre one.
11:10And you need a women's
11:10health physio
11:10who didn't even know
11:11they existed.
11:12So there you go.
11:13There are loads of myths
11:15and sometimes
11:16when you say about
11:17women prioritising
11:19looking after themselves
11:19a bit
11:20how can you look
11:21after yourself
11:21if you don't even know
11:22what the name
11:23of the issue is.
11:24That's it.
11:25And I also think
11:26you find yourself
11:28in this new world
11:29where you feel
11:30quite cut off
11:30from the old world
11:31don't you?
11:32I mean
11:32I wonder if I can ask
11:33you a bit about loneliness
11:34because this is something
11:36that is slightly
11:36more discussed
11:37but I don't know
11:38that people are
11:38really honest about it.
11:40You're suddenly
11:40in a situation
11:41where it's you and baby
11:43and the outside world
11:45someone described it
11:46as being on the other
11:47side of bubble wrap.
11:48It all feels
11:48a little bit quieter
11:49and not quite able
11:51to reach it.
11:52Was that the experience
11:53for you?
11:54It is a new world.
11:55You are in a different
11:56place and I think
11:58I said in the book
11:58and I stand by it
12:00that whenever I now
12:01see women with prams
12:03I see them
12:04in the other world
12:05and I kind of want
12:05to go well done
12:06you got out
12:07you're out of the house
12:08that's all you needed
12:09to achieve
12:09you're both there
12:10you're both okay
12:12and you know
12:12some of the men
12:13we see now
12:14I'd love to see more
12:15especially in the early days
12:16it is lonely at times
12:19and the irony is
12:20you're never alone.
12:22You talked about
12:23your maternity uniform
12:24as well going back
12:25to the military tropes
12:26which I thought
12:26was really interesting
12:27and also about
12:28this kind of
12:29flattening of identity
12:30so I did want to ask you
12:31about that experience
12:32and you know
12:33pulling on your
12:34maternity uniform
12:35your comfortable outfits
12:36did you feel very different?
12:38You talk about having
12:38two different handbags
12:39one that you know
12:41basically showed you
12:42as this powerful broadcaster
12:43and one that showed you
12:44as a new mother
12:45what was that like?
12:46I hope it was still powerful.
12:48I mean both have power
12:50in their own way right?
12:50No they do
12:50you know
12:51it's the hallway
12:52suddenly you know
12:53this chair where I keep bags
12:55took on this new
12:57there were new characters
12:58on the chair
13:00the maternity uniform
13:01without realising
13:03it seemed to be
13:04channelling Steve Jobs
13:04and had five stretchy
13:07black polinettes
13:07on the go
13:08it's quite a good look
13:09I mean very forgiving
13:10because your body's
13:11changing shape
13:12not how you want
13:14a lot of the time
13:15and that's not about
13:16being weight conscious
13:18it's about how you feel
13:20your body's just stretched
13:21and trying to
13:22go back to something
13:23and it doesn't go back back
13:25how could it
13:26especially with
13:27my size children
13:28but I'm wearing jeans
13:30I'm wearing stretchy
13:32black polinettes
13:32I'm a woman who
13:33hadn't actually
13:34until relatively recently
13:35ever worn
13:36many trousers
13:37were not my look
13:39I realised actually
13:40I'm on the road
13:41to becoming a mother
13:43because I had to do
13:44so much IVF
13:45I'd already lost
13:47a bit of my identity
13:49how I looked
13:50because my hair
13:51always stayed the same
13:52barnet by name
13:53barnet by nature
13:54big colourful lips
13:56my glasses
13:57this is all been the same
13:58great
13:58but what was going on
14:00from the neck down
14:02was disguise
14:03because
14:03when you inject yourself
14:05that much
14:07and
14:07I did all
14:08I did six rounds
14:09back to back
14:09of IVF
14:10there was only a few weeks
14:11between each one
14:12and then
14:12there was a bit of a
14:13bigger gap
14:14because very sadly
14:15I lost the baby
14:16on the fifth round
14:17a baby I should say
14:18and then
14:19went on again
14:21you're bruised
14:22you're really
14:23purply bruised
14:25you're tender down
14:26your legs
14:26you've got to find
14:27someone new
14:27to stab into
14:28I was injecting
14:28myself between
14:31three and seven
14:32times a day
14:33depending on the
14:33protocol
14:34and I'd be doing
14:35it in all sorts
14:35of places
14:36from Downing Street
14:37to you know
14:38the local library
14:39toilet
14:39like the whole
14:40the whole terrain
14:42you know
14:42of British life
14:44when you cover it
14:45like I do
14:45and
14:46I
14:47started wearing
14:48and they were fashionable
14:49these quite big
14:51flowery dresses
14:52and they look lovely
14:53on television
14:54and it allowed me
14:54not to have any pressure
14:56but actually
14:57I have those dresses
14:58still hanging in my
14:59wardrobe now
14:59and a couple of them
15:00I'd still wear
15:01but I sort of
15:02look at them now
15:03and realise
15:03they were also
15:04a uniform
15:05then we get to
15:06maternity service
15:07where you have to
15:08if you've got
15:09long hair
15:09because the baby
15:10grabs it
15:10when they're breastfeeding
15:11I had my bobble
15:12always on my wrist
15:14elasticated loose things
15:15something that still
15:16looked
15:16can't wear necklaces
15:18easily
15:19you know
15:20I became utilitarian
15:21and I have never
15:22wanted to be utilitarian
15:23in how I dress
15:24you know
15:25you look beautiful
15:25I love colour
15:26I appreciate how people look
15:28I love women thriving
15:29and you know
15:31having identity
15:32through clothes
15:33you posted about hats
15:34today on your Instagram
15:35I posted about hats
15:35today
15:36I love an accessory
15:37we're not wearing a hat
15:38during the podcast
15:38so yeah
15:39I think I really got lost
15:40in there
15:41and then I'd go to the shops
15:42occasionally
15:43and I'd put on an outfit
15:45that looked good before
15:45and it didn't look like me
15:46I think there's a
15:48a kind of delayed gratification
15:50I think you use that phrase
15:51as well
15:51where you're
15:52you're kind of always hoping
15:54that you can get back
15:55to this point
15:55that you were at before
15:56but I suppose
15:57you're never going to be
15:58quite the same
15:58are you
15:59no
15:59I think delayed gratification
16:01by the way
16:01is an art form
16:02it's also the name
16:03of a very good magazine
16:04an independent mag
16:06which I don't have time to read
16:07but if I do
16:08I'd like to
16:08and I
16:11if I
16:11I should say
16:12I do actually read
16:13a couple of indie mags
16:14that one
16:14and the fence
16:16and then I fall asleep
16:17and not because they're boring
16:18but because I start work early
16:19and have two small children
16:20and I'm trying to still engage
16:22with the world
16:22but I
16:23you know
16:24I feel that delayed gratification
16:26is sort of a
16:27a kind of
16:28master
16:29level of life
16:30and
16:31the example
16:32that sticks with me
16:33but I wrote it down
16:34so I didn't forget
16:35so I have a litter claw
16:37if I see litter on the street
16:39I'm coming to get you
16:41like
16:41I'm all in
16:42I pick it up with my hands
16:43it's not just with a claw
16:45it's sometimes
16:46I always pick anything up
16:47that's dry
16:47I'm not going to claim
16:48I'm a master
16:49and pick up marsh
16:51and I
16:52used to walk back
16:53from the park
16:53and it had been a windy day
16:54and bins had tipped over
16:56and I'd see
16:56rubbish on the street
16:57not uncommon
16:58especially in London
16:59where I am
17:00and
17:00I couldn't pick it up
17:01because I was with the buggy
17:02the baby screaming
17:03so I'd go in the house
17:04see it again later
17:06I'd then be on the school run
17:07I mean
17:07and basically
17:08how
17:09I don't know
17:10sad is it
17:10that I dreamt
17:11of just having the freedom
17:13to go and pick up
17:14a piece of litter
17:15without anyone screaming at me
17:17and put it in the bin
17:18and I finally did it
17:19maybe five days later
17:21four days later
17:22whatever it was
17:22and that was delayed gratification
17:24to me personified
17:25but then
17:26I love the idea
17:27that you're still
17:27like right
17:28I'm going to do this thing
17:29by hook or by crook
17:30I'm going to do it
17:31and I'm going to make sure
17:32your ambitions get a lot smaller
17:34yeah
17:34a lot smaller
17:36but hey
17:36you've got to start somewhere right
17:37yes
17:39do you think it can feel
17:40a bit harder
17:41for modern mothers now
17:42because we've been told
17:44for so long
17:45you can have everything
17:46you can have it all
17:47you don't need to
17:48have your gratification delayed
17:50you can have a big career
17:51and a big family
17:52and everything all at once
17:53and it'll be wonderful for you
17:55and then it's actually
17:55quite difficult
17:56I mean all at once
17:57is the issue there
17:58isn't it
17:59you can do
18:02most things
18:03yeah
18:03but you might
18:04need to delay
18:05certain elements
18:06and you might not
18:08want to do it
18:09in quite the same way
18:09as you once did
18:11so I feel
18:13the narrative is changing
18:14the narrative is changing
18:17but the pressure
18:18of
18:20you know
18:20one of the hardest things
18:21because I've also now
18:23you know
18:24going through perimenopause
18:26I'm at the foothills
18:27no fuck it
18:28I'm right in the mountain range
18:30I'm in that
18:31you know
18:31estrogen has left the body
18:33and
18:34I
18:34think one of the hardest things
18:36to get used to
18:36as a woman
18:37is not feeling the same
18:38as about things
18:39that you used to feel
18:40and not knowing
18:41if that's hormonal
18:42not knowing if that's
18:43because you've
18:44you know
18:44you've got children
18:45and you're at a slightly
18:46different point
18:47there's just a lot
18:48to figure out
18:49yeah
18:49do you feel a kind of
18:50grief or an excitement
18:52because I often talk
18:52to my friends about this
18:53we're all in our 30s now
18:55and a lot of us experience
18:56grieving for our 20s
18:58but excitement
18:58for what's to come
18:59and it's quite hard
19:00to hold both
19:00at the same time
19:02as long as you've still
19:02got excitement
19:03right
19:03I've always got excitement
19:04okay
19:04well you don't have to
19:05sometimes I feel weird
19:06you know
19:07about what's next
19:08and what's happened already
19:09so I grieve
19:10not going clubbing anymore
19:12let's just be highly
19:13specific about this
19:14and I still want to be
19:16in the club
19:17but I want to be dancing
19:18but I don't ever seem
19:20to have a time of day
19:20where I have the energy
19:21at the moment
19:22to bring to that experience
19:24and I also think
19:25we grew up in a culture
19:26I'm 41
19:27so I'm a bit older than you
19:28where the only way
19:30people in Britain
19:31seem to know how to dance
19:32is to get shit faced
19:33and right now
19:34a hangover with two children
19:36is actually worse
19:37than your worst hangover
19:38so the realities of that
19:41add up to
19:42I'm never in a club
19:43I just think
19:45the grief element
19:46is around
19:47sort of that
19:48plus
19:49the freedom
19:50of all of that
19:51you know
19:52and lack of responsibility
19:53lack of schedules
19:55lack of
19:55you know
19:56and it's not just around
19:57having children
19:57it's around getting older
19:58it obviously intensifies
20:00when you're responsible
20:00for two other heartbeats
20:02I love your realism
20:04as well though
20:04because everything you've said
20:06is really relatable
20:07but also you've talked about
20:09this culture of toxic positivity
20:10that I think
20:12it affects us all
20:13and we often think
20:15we have to enjoy
20:15every moment of everything
20:17and be grateful
20:17for every moment of everything
20:18but it's okay
20:19to dwell in the middle ground
20:21the grey area
20:21and you've talked about that
20:23a lot in the book
20:23I think
20:24the idea that
20:25this is what actually happens
20:26and I don't have to enjoy
20:27every minute
20:28and actually
20:28a lot of my maternity service
20:30you know
20:31it wasn't all sunshine and roses
20:32but it wasn't bad either
20:34you know
20:35sort of digging deep
20:35and kind of
20:36I don't know
20:38if I'd had a boy
20:39a second time
20:39I would have still written it
20:40but there was a bit of poignancy
20:42that I'd had a girl
20:43and I felt
20:45if nothing changes
20:46between me and her
20:47hopefully
20:47if she wants one
20:48having a baby
20:49and she hopefully
20:50being able to do so
20:51I hope with greater ease
20:52than me
20:54her mother wrote a book
20:56that kept it very very real
20:57you know
20:57and I think
20:58it's a very slim book
20:59deliberately
21:00and I hope people
21:01can pass it
21:02to each other
21:03and it
21:05breed a sense
21:06of contentment
21:07through the everyday
21:08and the mundanity
21:09and that it's okay
21:10to just be okay
21:12yeah
21:13definitely
21:14I mean you talk about
21:15being bored
21:15and that that's alright
21:16and that you don't have to have
21:17everyday be an event
21:19and I really liked that
21:20I mean
21:21there was
21:22when you work in
21:24broadcasting
21:25it's a very strange job
21:26to go on maternity
21:27service from
21:28because
21:29you can listen
21:30or watch
21:30the people
21:31who are standing in
21:32for you on your job
21:33I mean the psychology
21:34of maternity covers
21:36for women
21:36I don't know
21:37how many men
21:38would deal very well
21:39with their job
21:40being filled
21:41for however many months
21:42or a year
21:43by another person
21:44as in it's fine
21:45it's what's happening
21:46and legally
21:47I really hope
21:47that is the case
21:48for more and more women
21:49because we know
21:50maternity discrimination
21:50is rife
21:52but it's even weirder
21:54when you can tune in
21:55and listen to your stand-in
21:57your cover
21:58live
21:58so I don't listen
22:00to Radio 4
22:01when I'm not on Radio 4
22:02that often
22:03I do sorry now
22:04but when I was on
22:05maternity service
22:05I love listening to the radio
22:07and I listen to lots
22:08of different things
22:09and a lot of music
22:10but one day
22:11I was in this classic position
22:13that new mothers
22:14will remember
22:15that the baby's
22:15falling asleep on you
22:16I think I was
22:17semi on the floor
22:17semi on the sofa
22:18in the kitchen
22:19the radio was still on
22:20it was coming on
22:21to not my show
22:23but it had just been my show
22:24on Woman's Hour
22:25where I was at the time
22:26and this artist came on
22:28and he started talking about
22:29why he still works
22:31at whatever age he was
22:33you know
22:33beyond retirement age
22:36and he
22:37I couldn't walk around
22:38he said
22:39with no goal
22:40no schedule
22:41nothing to do
22:43it would just be
22:44so mind-numbing
22:45what would I do
22:46and I was like
22:47mate
22:47I walk miles
22:49every day
22:50with no destination
22:51I walk 20,000 steps
22:53sometimes
22:54and yes I have a purpose
22:55of course I do
22:56I had my daughter
22:57but the way he described it
22:58I was like
22:58welcome to maternity service
23:00you would not
23:01fucking survive
23:02like
23:02and that's why
23:03I do have a bit
23:04of a comparison
23:05when I'm writing
23:06about this
23:07between
23:07you know
23:08not on the serious level
23:09but around lockdown
23:10you know
23:11lockdown
23:12was existential
23:13for some people
23:15like maternity leave
23:16can be
23:16yeah
23:17it's almost like
23:18against your will
23:18well we opted in
23:20but you know
23:20against your will
23:21you have something
23:22stripped away from you
23:23and then you just
23:23have to ride it out
23:24it's a really interesting
23:27concept I suppose
23:28when we think about it
23:29in terms of how
23:29you framed it in the book
23:30and you know
23:31being bored
23:33and letting yourself
23:34be bored
23:35is also not something
23:36we need to do anymore
23:37we can be stimulated
23:38and occupied
23:39the whole time
23:40but on maternity service
23:42as I call it
23:43I remember watching
23:44literally watching
23:45the hands of the kitchen
23:46clock go round
23:47because
23:47I'd mistimed
23:49our daughter's nap
23:50the younger one
23:51I had to go on the school run
23:52I'd made his
23:53my son's post school snack
23:55there was nothing to do
23:57the house was tidy
23:59everything was done
24:00I was like
24:00what the fuck
24:00am I gonna do now
24:01so I watched the clock
24:03it was bloody awful
24:05it's weird though
24:06the idea that we
24:07kind of see
24:07being stimulated
24:09is the ultimate goal too
24:10I mean
24:11so many people in wellness
24:12are always telling us
24:13to slow down
24:14it's time to slow down
24:15and enjoy the moment
24:15but I don't know
24:16that slowing down
24:17is necessarily associated
24:19with enjoying the moment
24:20because if you do slow down
24:21like you say
24:22you have to be quite mindful
24:24about that moment
24:24yes
24:25and you might not be in the space
24:27when you slow down
24:27to be mindful
24:28yeah exactly
24:28so it is
24:30you know
24:30listen
24:31it's a challenge
24:32I'm on my screen too much
24:34everybody's on their screen
24:34too much
24:35you wrote a letter
24:37to your pre-baby self
24:39and I thought
24:40that was quite
24:41an interesting one
24:42because that's often
24:43something people
24:43are encouraged
24:44to do by therapists
24:45or in wellness settings
24:46yes I didn't know that
24:47yeah
24:48it's a really interesting tool
24:49and I wonder
24:50if you can tell us
24:50a bit more about it
24:51yes I did it the first time
24:53and then the second time
24:54a maternity leave letter
24:55to myself
24:57and it was about
24:58some very boring things
25:00like here's your login
25:01when you go back to work
25:02because who can remember
25:03that week to week
25:04but it was also
25:05a bit of a thing
25:07to get me back in the ring
25:08when I went back to work
25:10and each time
25:12you leave a job
25:13you are at the peak
25:14of that job usually
25:16you know
25:16not peak in the sense
25:17that that's the very best
25:18moment necessarily
25:19but you know
25:20what you're doing
25:21that could be the same
25:22for your changing job
25:23so I wanted to capture
25:26a bit of a feeling
25:27and then you know
25:28I do have a strange job
25:29in the sense
25:30that people send you
25:31that you don't know
25:32send you advice
25:33or send you well wishes
25:35as you go on your way
25:36so I copied and pasted
25:37a load of those in as well
25:39which aren't all in the book
25:39just because people
25:40haven't consented to
25:41necessarily have those things there
25:42but a few are
25:44and it made me feel
25:45I read them the night
25:47before I went back to work
25:48each time
25:48got the right handbag
25:49in the hallway
25:51and it just helped
25:52G me up to go back in
25:55I like the section in the book
25:57that's all about
25:58the big return as well
25:59and I think
26:01I mean you've got
26:02a new podcast out
26:03right
26:03you've got Ready to Talk
26:04and that is a really great view
26:07on the wonderful work
26:08that you do
26:08but also the realness
26:10because we all know you
26:11as being quite a heart-hitting
26:12broadcaster
26:13but Ready to Talk
26:14and the book
26:14they both kind of offer
26:15an insight I think
26:16into women
26:17not just women
26:18but people's interior lives
26:19and I think that that is
26:21quite needed in media as well
26:24I mean I really enjoyed
26:25listening to the podcast today
26:27and some of the topics
26:29I mean they're quite hard-hitting
26:31and you talk about
26:31women's issues
26:32in a way that I think
26:33is really important
26:34has that always been
26:35of interest to you
26:36and important to you to do?
26:37So the podcast launched
26:39a few months ago now
26:40as you say
26:41it's called Ready to Talk
26:42on the BBC
26:42and I've been wanting
26:44to build that sort of space
26:46for a long time
26:47and of course at Women's Hour
26:49I had that
26:50at my own eponymous program
26:52at Five Live
26:52I had that
26:53for three hours a day
26:54and you know
26:55to an extent
26:56what we cover
26:56on the Today program
26:57where I now am
26:58is of huge interest
26:59but you can get
27:01four, seven, eleven minutes
27:04on those programs
27:05sometimes on Women's Hour
27:0715 to 18
27:08sometimes
27:10and it's not just
27:11about length of time
27:11it's about the other angle
27:13the depth of question
27:15and you know
27:15somebody very kindly
27:16we had an episode
27:17that's just
27:18you know
27:19gone really big
27:19with Tracey Emmett
27:20and yes
27:21she has an exhibition out
27:23it was actually
27:23a very deep conversation
27:25about womanhood
27:26and pain
27:27and art
27:28and creativity
27:29and it was
27:31it was electric
27:32it really was
27:33and you know
27:34I have interviewed Tracey before
27:36but this was
27:37this had a whole other
27:38complexion to it
27:38because we had this time
27:39and space
27:39and somebody very kindly said
27:41it's a space
27:43where it's a kind
27:44of conversation
27:45that you can imagine
27:46happening around a table
27:47and you want to get a seat to
27:48and I think
27:49that is what's
27:50always interested me
27:51I have addiction
27:53an addiction
27:53to hearing what people
27:54really think
27:55so it's called
27:56Ready to Talk
27:57in part slightly
27:58because I think
27:59you know
27:59my poor husband
28:00who despairs
28:00but does have
28:01an entertaining life
28:02I hope
28:02when we're going to bed
28:03and we've spoken all day
28:04a little bit over children
28:05so we can't really speak
28:06but I'll say
28:07can we talk
28:08he's like
28:08Emma
28:08we've done talking
28:10we're going to sleep
28:11and I was like
28:12but one more thing
28:13and then I've got another question
28:14you know
28:14so
28:16I think
28:17for me
28:18you know
28:19women's lives
28:20are hugely important
28:21of course they are to me
28:22and not least
28:23because we're still
28:23at the beginning
28:24of hearing about
28:25women's lives
28:26in all of their
28:27complexity and glory
28:28but
28:29as you put it
28:30beautifully
28:30if I may say
28:31in people's interior lives
28:33even through
28:35the prism of politics
28:36you know
28:36people are people
28:38we are governed
28:39by people
28:40I am interested
28:41in the humanity
28:42of that
28:44yeah
28:44I mean I totally agree
28:46and I think
28:46we need more
28:48of these kinds of stories
28:49I cried my way around
28:51that Tracy Evan exhibition
28:52because
28:53on the one hand
28:54it was really great
28:54to see
28:55so many
28:56really insightful
28:57personal things
28:58brought to the fore
28:59that I could relate to
29:00but also I was like
29:01this is huge
29:02because these issues
29:03women's pain
29:04they're being discussed
29:05and showed to us
29:06at a huge institutional level
29:07within the art world
29:08that's massive
29:09and like you say
29:11you know
29:11with the book as well
29:12there's not enough people
29:13talking about
29:14this
29:14we don't have a problem
29:15that there's too much
29:15of it
29:16in my view
29:16no and I think also
29:18it was seen as indulgent
29:19which Tracy also talks about
29:23and the other thing
29:24I've also been very
29:25passionate about
29:26in my journalism
29:27and work
29:28is what gets the headlines
29:29what makes
29:30what's seen
29:31as top of the agenda
29:32so prior to broadcasting
29:34I worked at a newspaper
29:35for seven years
29:36I was at the Daily Telegraph
29:37while I was there
29:38I launched the women's section
29:39but prior to that
29:41I was a technology
29:41and media correspondent
29:43I knew
29:44what stories
29:46would become most read
29:47a lot of the time
29:48not all the time
29:49and when I had my own section
29:51I could start proving it
29:52and I think
29:53the humanity
29:55of stories
29:57will always triumph
29:58the line
29:59that relates
30:00and that doesn't mean
30:02you have to do that
30:02with every story
30:03news is news
30:04sport is sport
30:06you know
30:07but where women
30:09or the lens
30:11sometimes a woman
30:12can bring
30:12and it's the lens
30:13I'm interested in
30:15why is that not as important
30:16why is health
30:17not the top story
30:18if you've got a load
30:19of people dying
30:20or walking around
30:21in agony with something
30:22that's bloody
30:23headline news
30:24so the fact
30:25that you haven't
30:26researched one
30:27half of the population's
30:29bodies properly
30:30pretty bloody important
30:32yeah
30:32I say it all the time
30:33this is the news guys
30:34I find it
30:36yeah
30:36absolutely wild
30:37that people don't
30:37consider that
30:38well you've got
30:38a great experience
30:39right now
30:39you're carving out
30:40a new space
30:40at a newspaper
30:41there's nothing
30:42more exciting
30:42than being in a
30:44place to do that
30:45and to innovate
30:45yeah
30:46I agree
30:47totally with you
30:49I also want to ask
30:50for some personal advice
30:51if we're talking
30:51interior lives
30:53if I may
30:54oh gosh
30:54I'll try
30:55well if someone
30:56is at the beginning
30:57of their journey
30:57with motherhood
30:59do you have
31:00some winning advice
31:01that you could give them
31:02well I can definitely
31:03relate to the underprepared
31:04my husband was
31:05begging me to
31:06at least open
31:07the pram box
31:08before we got home
31:10from said hospital
31:11and I said
31:12no no no no
31:13let's just see
31:13if the baby arrives
31:14and he's like
31:15so I can definitely
31:17relate to being
31:18underprepared
31:18there's a book
31:19by Naomi Stadlin
31:21the late Naomi Stadlin
31:22she only recently
31:23died a very great woman
31:25who I was privileged
31:26to actually interview
31:26in the end
31:27long after I first
31:28discovered her
31:29but I did get
31:29I think one of her
31:30final interviews
31:31on Women's Out
31:32but she wrote
31:32this series of books
31:33but the first one
31:34if I get the title
31:35correct
31:35is called
31:36What Mothers Do
31:37When They Look Like
31:37They're Doing Nothing
31:38and it changed my life
31:40it was very low-key
31:41and it was very journalistic
31:43she ran women's circles
31:45where mothers would
31:46come and talk
31:47in front of her
31:48once a week
31:50and with their permission
31:51but not naming them
31:52she wrote down
31:52what they were saying
31:53and she themed
31:54some of it
31:55and I found it
31:57quietly groundbreaking
31:58as obviously
31:59many other people did
32:00because it's been reprinted
32:01and reprinted
32:02and there's a couple
32:03of other editions
32:04so I would advise
32:05that particular book
32:06I would also advise
32:07Matrescence
32:08by my friend Lucy James
32:09who finally did do
32:10what we needed
32:11and wrote the book
32:12and it's beautiful
32:14and it's brilliant
32:15so sorry to make people read
32:16but I'm sure there are audio books
32:17if you can't bear it
32:18I'm never sorry to make people read
32:20but you know
32:20you're tired
32:20so I think
32:21but I suppose
32:22why I pick those two
32:24speaks to a larger
32:25piece of advice
32:25if I am being asked
32:27which I am
32:28around
32:29one of the advice
32:31piece of advice
32:32in Naomi Stadlin's book
32:33was to never take credit
32:34for anything good
32:36your child does
32:37which means
32:38on the other side of it
32:39and I'm badly paraphrasing
32:40sorry if you're related to Naomi
32:41and you don't agree
32:42with that quotation
32:43or you're hereditor
32:43but you also
32:45don't have to take them
32:46you don't need to feel
32:48responsible
32:48if they do something bad
32:49as in
32:50you are nurturing
32:52and you have nature
32:54and it's the great debate
32:55but a bit like
32:57don't read the good reviews
32:58and believe them
32:59of your podcast
33:00because then you have to
33:01believe the bad
33:01as in
33:02you're all doing your best
33:05and to try and tread lightly
33:07and learn
33:08and so
33:09I am no parenting expert
33:12but weirdly
33:13I found that very comforting
33:14and I'm just sharing
33:15in case
33:16it helps
33:17because
33:19I'm not saying
33:19I don't take
33:20responsibility
33:22for my children
33:23but I can't
33:25say that it was me
33:27good or bad
33:28they're them
33:29and somebody else
33:30told me
33:30an older woman
33:31I'm close to
33:32you know
33:33it's an exercise
33:34in saying goodbye
33:35every day
33:36and obviously
33:37that's not how I feel
33:38every day
33:38but they're getting older
33:39each day
33:39so you're saying goodbye
33:40to you know
33:41only this morning
33:41we were getting rid
33:42of sippy cups
33:43and it felt like progress
33:44but at the same time
33:45I was like
33:45there are now no more
33:46sippy cups in the house
33:47we're on cups
33:50each time
33:51there's a thing
33:51it's another nudge
33:52towards a goodbye
33:53to something else
33:54and everything's
33:56always changing
33:56so stay fleet of foot
33:58that's really good advice
34:00because I think
34:00if you
34:01if you dig in too much
34:03and you're too resistant
34:04and too sensitive
34:05it just could be
34:05a heartbreak
34:06every day
34:06completely overwhelm you
34:07and don't get me wrong
34:08I'm not saying
34:09I did all of that
34:09but
34:11I found
34:12the writing
34:12of the interior life
34:14to use your lovely
34:15phrase
34:16and the phrase
34:16that is
34:17of mothers
34:18and not just books
34:20although they're important
34:21about the baby
34:22like the week by week book
34:24great
34:24loved it
34:25if you don't know that
34:26look at that
34:27but
34:28I also wanted to know
34:30how women felt
34:32did you go to things
34:33like women's circles
34:34did you kind of
34:35dip a toe
34:35in all of these different
34:36I suppose
34:37is disciplines
34:38the right word
34:39different ways
34:40of becoming a mother
34:41I attended our local
34:43mothers group
34:43mother and father group
34:45which is an NCT one
34:47the National Childbirth Trust
34:49which you pay for
34:51and lots of people
34:52have always done
34:53those particular groups
34:54they've been going
34:54a long time in Britain
34:55but there are other ones
34:57and obviously
34:57you can meet
34:58local people
34:59through library groups
34:59that you don't pay for
35:00and all of that
35:02I mean
35:03some people crassly
35:04sort of say
35:04of the NCT
35:05you're paying 300 pounds
35:06to find a local group
35:07of mates
35:09and it's actually
35:10not really about
35:10the advice
35:11that you receive
35:11I would largely
35:12go along with that
35:14in my personal experience
35:15and I got two
35:16really good female friends
35:17out of that
35:18and I'm meeting up
35:19with them in a couple
35:19of weeks
35:20not with our children
35:21so that'll be fun
35:22but I didn't go
35:25to women's circles
35:26per se
35:27but I did attend
35:29a lot of classes
35:29where I'd go each week
35:30and then with the mothers
35:32we would start to form
35:33a bit of a group
35:34we would then go
35:35walking together
35:35and then weirdly
35:37you should say
35:37women's circle
35:38in terms of
35:38what that means
35:39for me
35:40because I hosted
35:42one at my house
35:42not long ago
35:44for the first time
35:45which wasn't based
35:46around motherhood
35:46it was actually
35:47based around hormones
35:48and our experience
35:49of that
35:50and I didn't really
35:50know what I was doing
35:52but I tried my best
35:53and there were good snacks
35:54and I am obviously
35:55experienced in
35:56chairing conversations
35:57so I tried my best
35:59and we all found
36:01it really good
36:01I mean I love
36:02that kind of atmosphere
36:03and I think you know
36:04in wellness
36:05there's a spectrum of it
36:06you can go very woo
36:07or it can just be
36:08very organised
36:09in just a room
36:09of women talking
36:10I'm a bit woo
36:11but I'm quite hardcore
36:12science
36:13so woo and science
36:15I kind of occupy
36:16that same space
36:17so I feel you
36:18I love you know
36:19I love a bit of
36:20and you know
36:21also I tell you
36:21what I did do
36:22on maternity service
36:23now you've brought
36:24woo up
36:24I went five rhythms
36:27dancing
36:27oh full arms
36:29in the air
36:29everything
36:30you know
36:31once in a
36:32like a wood
36:34under a moon
36:35yeah
36:35great
36:36and the second one
36:38or the first one
36:38sorry
36:39was in a gym
36:39in South London
36:42less woo vibes
36:43in the sense of
36:44no moon
36:45and the moon night
36:46was incredible
36:46and the sun was going down
36:48it was like one of those
36:49perfects
36:49and it was silent
36:50we were in a
36:52a walled garden thing
36:53so we had headphones on
36:54so you couldn't have
36:54the music out loud
36:55it was amazing
36:56you know
36:57and it was men and women
36:58the first one I went to
36:59and then the second one
36:59was all women
37:00it's nice to just let loose
37:01though isn't it
37:02and I guess after feeling
37:03like you have to be
37:04a particular way
37:05in so many ways
37:06I'm quite hunched up
37:07with the breastfeed
37:07like just to let your body
37:10because I've never been good
37:11at yoga
37:11I'm really just quite crap
37:13at it
37:13not that I need to be amazing
37:14but I'm actually crap
37:16so I
37:17it was nice to feel
37:18there was something
37:18which I could do
37:19yeah for sure
37:20and like you know
37:21yoga's not for everyone
37:22it's one of the things
37:23they really
37:23yoga and gentle mat pilates
37:24they really recommend
37:25during pregnancy
37:27after pregnancy
37:27but if it's not you
37:28then you've got to find
37:30something that works for you
37:31I would like to
37:31I see a future
37:32like I said to Monty Don
37:34the gardener
37:34not long ago
37:35I see gardening
37:36in my future
37:37which was my way of saying
37:38Monty I've never gardened
37:40I see a future
37:41with pilates
37:42not yoga
37:43not least because
37:44I seem to do something
37:45wrong to myself
37:45every time I do yoga
37:46I genuinely think
37:49living in a body
37:50racked with endometriosis
37:52and pain
37:52which we can get into
37:53should you wish to
37:54but
37:56genuinely don't
37:57think it wants
37:58to stretch
37:59like I've got this
38:00theory about it
38:01that every time
38:02I've done yoga
38:03I've really hurt myself
38:04I've not done anything
38:05wrong per se
38:06it just
38:07and people watching this
38:09or listening to this
38:11who you know
38:12care about that work
38:13will say
38:13you haven't been looked
38:14after
38:15they'll blame
38:17something
38:17but I'm just going to say
38:18there's something about me
38:20that
38:20just can't seem to
38:22yeah
38:22do it very well
38:23I've never been flexible
38:24I did ballet
38:25until I was 18
38:26I am
38:27a good dancer
38:28but
38:29I wasn't
38:30able to do
38:31certain moves
38:32I don't know
38:32I feel I had
38:33and I didn't know
38:34I had endo at the time
38:35and I'm not blaming
38:35everything on it
38:36but it is a system wide
38:37disease
38:39and it makes me
38:40more sensitive
38:41on certain parts
38:42of my body
38:42and stuff like that
38:42I'm only recently
38:43learning a lot more
38:44about pain
38:46and how it affects
38:47certain things
38:48so I think yoga
38:50looks amazing
38:51my husband does it
38:52and is brilliant at it
38:53and I'm very jealous
38:54and I wish I could do it
38:55but it's interesting
38:56what you say
38:56around being body aware
38:58because sometimes
38:59I think as women
39:00our health forces us
39:01to become more body aware
39:02in that way
39:02yes
39:03I mean endometriosis
39:04must have affected
39:05pretty much every aspect
39:07of your life
39:07in that way
39:08without me realising
39:09actually for some
39:10for a long time
39:11I mean I started
39:12my menstrual career
39:13at age 10
39:14as I like to say
39:15menstrual career
39:16menstrual career
39:17with a severe amount
39:18of dysmenorrhea
39:19another great word
39:20for period pain
39:22very quickly afterwards
39:23and I didn't get diagnosed
39:26until I was 31
39:26and for people who don't know
39:28the public service
39:29this broadcaster of me
39:30will tell you
39:30that endometriosis
39:31is where cells
39:32like the lining of the womb
39:33that should leave the body
39:34do not
39:35and then they go around the body
39:36and they cause lesions
39:37and pain
39:38and your organs
39:38can stick together
39:39huge issues
39:40with lots of things
39:41from infertility
39:43through to painful sex
39:44through to
39:44you know
39:44it can go into your lungs
39:45but I've been looking
39:46a lot into endometriosis lately
39:48and meeting a lot of people
39:50to do with it
39:51and I am
39:53I am humbled
39:55and ashamed
39:56by how little I still know
39:59and ashamed
40:00because
40:00I shouldn't be ashamed
40:02everybody
40:02hasn't told
40:03you know
40:04nobody's told me
40:05but I'm ashamed
40:05in one way
40:06that I
40:06have treated my body
40:08so disrespectfully
40:09at times
40:10from pouring gallons
40:12of alcohol
40:12into it
40:13in my 20s
40:14through to
40:15thinking
40:16just be tougher
40:17soldier on
40:18like
40:19what?
40:20I relate to that
40:22this mentality of
40:23and you know
40:24it's fed sometimes
40:25by other women
40:27sadly
40:27being like
40:28well I don't have that
40:29and for years
40:30I just thought
40:31what's wrong
40:32something's wrong with me
40:33but not actually
40:34something's wrong with me
40:36you know
40:36and it took
40:37trying to have a baby
40:38to finally be diagnosed
40:39so was that the
40:40that the catalyst
40:41to your diagnosis
40:42actually trying to get pregnant
40:44couldn't
40:44tried to have a baby
40:45for two years
40:46on our own
40:47and it wasn't happening
40:48and what
40:50was happening
40:51was my periods
40:52and it isn't just
40:53a period disease
40:53it's system wide
40:55but it's seen
40:56as painful periods
40:57still wrongly
40:58were getting
40:59everything around
41:00my period
41:01excuse me
41:01everything around
41:02my period
41:02was getting worse
41:03and worse
41:05and that's because
41:06I'd come off the pill
41:08and the pill
41:09for a lot of
41:10symptoms
41:11can mask
41:12endometriosis symptoms
41:13because it dampens
41:14down your cycle
41:14and I knew
41:16something was wrong
41:17you know
41:17I said to my husband
41:18this
41:18not just the not
41:19getting pregnant
41:20something's wrong
41:21like
41:22this isn't normal
41:23how this is
41:24the worst
41:25you know
41:25and then we had a crunch
41:26point on a trip
41:27to Sweden
41:28actually where his mum's
41:29from
41:29and I collapsed
41:31and that was
41:32the beginning of
41:34trying to actually
41:35not just get pregnant
41:37but figure out
41:38my body
41:39and it's
41:40I mean
41:40I feel like
41:41the pregnancy journey
41:42is so complex
41:44and so fraught
41:45with hurdles
41:45for so many people
41:46but then when you
41:47add this other
41:48layer
41:48I mean that must
41:49have been really
41:50really difficult
41:50to navigate
41:51yes but because
41:52I had a goal
41:53what I realised
41:55I now
41:55at 41
41:56and I was
41:5829
41:59and then diagnosed
42:0031
42:01so it's 10 years
42:01of being diagnosed
42:02is that
42:03I put the endometriosis
42:05reality on the back burner
42:06because there was a goal
42:07to get pregnant
42:08so whatever this
42:09needed doing to it
42:10to achieve this
42:11that doesn't mean
42:12though whatever
42:13I'm doing here
42:13to get that
42:14is going to sort
42:15this out properly
42:15because nothing does
42:17they don't know
42:18what causes it
42:18off the back burner
42:19now
42:19yeah
42:19they don't know
42:20what causes it
42:21they don't have
42:21a cure for it
42:23there's literally
42:24almost fuck all
42:25knowledge about
42:26endometriosis
42:26which blows my mind
42:28for the amount
42:28of women who have it
42:29yeah
42:29well they say
42:311 in 10
42:32but they also say
42:33there's more research
42:34into male pattern
42:34baldness
42:35than there is
42:35into endometriosis
42:36which you said
42:37so fast
42:37because you know
42:38it as a fact
42:38but let's slow it down
42:39there is more research
42:40into male
42:41let's not even say
42:43patterned baldness
42:44let's just say
42:45bald men
42:46yeah
42:46than women
42:47writhing around
42:49with a life
42:49altering condition
42:51called endometriosis
42:52unable to
42:53to work
42:53to you know
42:55enjoy motherhood
42:56I do think
42:57that this is something
42:58that isn't spoken
42:58about enough
42:59the the reason
43:00for why it isn't
43:01researched
43:01and the fact
43:02that it isn't
43:03researched
43:04and then how to
43:05survive and live
43:06with it
43:06are the areas
43:07that I'm focusing
43:08on
43:08a lot of people
43:09and I get why
43:10because it's that
43:11drama moment
43:12focus on
43:14diagnosis times
43:15and getting diagnosed
43:17and that is important
43:19you have to know
43:20what you're dealing with
43:21but that is honestly
43:22down here for me now
43:24with what I think
43:25needs to change
43:26yeah
43:27of course that needs
43:27to change
43:28and people are doing
43:28really incredible
43:29work on that
43:30I don't want to
43:31diminish it
43:31but then you've got
43:32your whole life
43:33with this condition
43:35destroying you
43:36from the inside out
43:37this is
43:38one of the things
43:40that I find myself
43:40speaking to my friends
43:41about a lot as well
43:42because so many of them
43:43have it
43:43and they're
43:44in and out of hospital
43:45you know
43:45unable to go to work
43:46properly
43:48thinking about
43:48their next
43:49surgical appointment
43:51I mean
43:51so much of your life
43:53intersects with
43:54this condition
43:55and I also wanted
43:56to ask you about
43:57just sort of ways
43:58that you show up
43:59because obviously
43:59you do so much
44:00and we all think
44:02of you as a really
44:02really impressive
44:03person
44:03but you're dealing
44:04with you know
44:06having to get the kids
44:06ready for school
44:07with endopain
44:08with everything else
44:09running around
44:10in your head
44:10like what are your
44:11tips for survival
44:12in that kind of
44:13high adrenaline
44:14career moment
44:16versus then being
44:17at home
44:17dealing with kids
44:18dealing with pain
44:19moment
44:19do you have any
44:20tips for people
44:21that are wondering
44:22how you do it all
44:22nap
44:23nap
44:24stealth nap
44:25find a heated
44:26blanket
44:27lake land or
44:28otherwise
44:30a very wonderful
44:32woman sent me
44:33a heated blanket
44:33it's slightly
44:34changed my life
44:37but in all seriousness
44:38you can't nap
44:39a lot of the time
44:40and although I have
44:42napped in lots of
44:43places recently
44:44but I
44:44do you find it
44:45easy to just go
44:46to sleep
44:46no I don't
44:47I have to watch
44:48something
44:48so I've had to
44:49figure out my way
44:50and I bought a
44:51sillily expensive
44:52sleep mask
44:53that is quite good
44:54it was 45 pounds
44:55I believe
44:56but it's like a
44:57cloud on my face
44:58because I don't
44:58like anything
44:59restricting my head
45:01I wear hats
45:03but not headbands
45:03and mind over
45:07matter does do
45:08quite a lot for
45:08me
45:09having children
45:10who are depending
45:11on me
45:11and having a
45:13level of
45:13dependability
45:14as a duty
45:15as a thing
45:18and wanting to
45:19live a good life
45:20it sounds
45:22just live a life
45:23really
45:24is good
45:25to hold on to
45:26it's powerful
45:27then that can run
45:28out if you've had
45:29days of pain
45:30my other survival
45:32tip
45:32is a heated
45:33wheat bag
45:34that you can
45:34put in the
45:35microwave
45:35my dear friend
45:36Eleanor Tom
45:37who's a
45:38actor
45:39writer
45:39comedian
45:39who's waylaid
45:41with this end
45:41of shit
45:42at the moment
45:43she made me
45:44one
45:44her mum
45:44made me
45:45the bag
45:45and she
45:45made the
45:46William Morris
45:46cover
45:48because if you're
45:49in pain
45:49make it pretty
45:51but if you've
45:52had a few days
45:53of this shit
45:55it can really
45:56get you down
45:57so it's not
45:57that you are
45:58depressed
45:59it's causal
46:01you know
46:02it's real
46:03antidepressants
46:04wouldn't touch
46:04that necessarily
46:05because it's
46:06not a serotonin
46:08or you know
46:09I'm not going to
46:09talk as a scientist
46:10but it's not
46:10that issue
46:11it's you're being
46:11ground down
46:12by pain
46:14what I then
46:15do in that
46:16moment
46:17is remember
46:18this too
46:19shall pass
46:20so I am not
46:21in pain right
46:22now as we're
46:22talking but on
46:23Friday we were
46:23saying we were
46:24both at an
46:24event ahead of
46:26International Women's
46:26Day I was not
46:27in a good way
46:28and the irony
46:29was I was there
46:29to give a speech
46:30about endometriosis
46:32yep you can't
46:33make this shit
46:33up but I
46:34couldn't see
46:35for what was
46:37going on
46:39and I just
46:40had to sit it
46:41out like a
46:41storm I went
46:42home then I
46:44rely on other
46:45people so I
46:46know to say to
46:48my husband
46:48obviously if you're
46:49a single mother
46:49this is completely
46:50different but you
46:51need to build a
46:52network and you
46:53need to offload
46:54when it's really
46:55bad and I lay
46:57low I laid
46:58low after giving
47:00a speech to
47:00600 people I
47:01you know and I
47:02say that not like
47:03I gave it I was
47:04so poorly I did
47:05not want to do
47:06that but I was
47:07given a car to
47:08go there I got
47:10out did it and
47:11then collapsed
47:11back into the
47:12car and I went
47:13home and I did
47:13not move for two
47:14more hours and
47:15that was meant to
47:16be a day with
47:17meetings and
47:18actually it's
47:18meant to be a
47:19day with my
47:19daughter and I
47:20did not spend
47:21the day with my
47:21daughter and she
47:22said to me we
47:23didn't spend the
47:24day to go it
47:25wasn't our mummy
47:25you know whatever
47:26her name is we
47:27don't say it
47:28wasn't that day
47:29and so there are
47:31several things I've
47:32sort of said there
47:33from the benign of
47:34a heat pack through
47:35to a mentality but
47:38sorry to say it's
47:40awful at times and
47:41there is no survival
47:42tip other than to
47:43sit tight yeah the
47:44idea that it takes
47:45so much thought and
47:47so much movement
47:50around what you
47:51think is going to
47:52be your day and
47:53then you know the
47:54outcome the reality
47:56it does well you
47:57live a bit in the
47:57moment I'm going to
47:58try and spin it
47:59slightly positively
47:59yeah silver lining
48:00I don't know who
48:01who or how I wake
48:02up sometimes so if
48:04it's good I'm owning
48:05it and Hilary
48:07Mantel the great
48:08late writer she of
48:10wolf hall and
48:10others titles said
48:13who suffered very
48:14badly with this and
48:15wasn't diagnosed
48:16they need no word
48:16for it when she was
48:18growing up essentially
48:19they thought she was
48:20going mad she said
48:23everything I have
48:23achieved I have
48:24achieved in the
48:25teeth of this
48:26disease and I've
48:27always thought the
48:28choice of the word
48:29teeth it is a it's a
48:32vice and it's got a
48:33grip but then the
48:35idea of adversity in
48:37spite of I mean it's
48:38incredible but it's
48:39also so deeply unfair
48:41and unjust isn't it
48:42it makes you angry
48:43can't go down that
48:44road though yeah I
48:45mean I rely a lot on
48:46gratitude and
48:47whenever I feel that
48:48I'm kind of being
48:49dragged down by my
48:51health issues or by
48:52something that's just
48:53annoying me I try to
48:55find solace and
48:56gratitude and it does
48:56really work you know
48:58all of all of the
48:59meditation that I so
49:00changed my life has
49:02worked so I am to
49:03tell me about
49:03meditating I want to
49:04get into it but you
49:05know what my brain is
49:07so racy that in the
49:08beginning I could never
49:09do it but now I feel
49:10like I've got a really
49:11lovely relationship with
49:12it so you're with an
49:13app are you doing an
49:14app I used to I don't
49:15need it anymore but I
49:17tried so many different
49:18apps and so many of
49:19them are really good but
49:19also you can just find
49:20really good meditations
49:21or guided exercises on
49:23Spotify that are free
49:24and easy so maybe you
49:26can send me one yeah
49:27I'd recommend a few of
49:28them okay I do want to
49:29ask you for one more
49:30tip if I may though I
49:31always ask my guests
49:32what their one tip for
49:33feeling well enough would
49:34be not perfect but well
49:36enough oh I would say
49:39some music I live my
49:41life through music I
49:42know I'm a speech
49:43broadcaster I remember
49:44meeting someone early on
49:45actually when I became
49:46a mother who asked me
49:47what I did and I said
49:48have a radio show and
49:50she said oh what time
49:51of day and at the time
49:52it was 10 till 1 it's
49:53three hours and she
49:54said what tunes do you
49:55play and I said no
49:56tunes she was like what
49:57do you mean I was like
49:58there's no tunes she was
49:59like what happens and
50:01she'd never heard of
50:01speech radio which always
50:03is a reminder to me that
50:04whenever you think what
50:05you do is known or like
50:06at least known about it
50:08doesn't have to be
50:08listened to you know and
50:10I'm at the BBC and I
50:11was like I just talked
50:13she was like for three
50:14hours I was like uh-huh
50:15like with other people but
50:17sometimes just to
50:17myself depends on if
50:18the guest dropping out
50:19so um but despite that
50:22I'm a huge playlist maker
50:23I was your mixtape girl
50:25back in the day and I
50:26am still a playlister and
50:28I make playlists for
50:29everything and I walk
50:31around in a world of
50:32music and actually when
50:33I'm in pain I find it
50:34really helpful as well
50:35I mean it's a great
50:36mood booster isn't it
50:37and there's so much
50:38research coming out now
50:39about live music and
50:40vibration and healing
50:41which is why everyone
50:42loves a sound bath at the
50:43moment I'm quite into it
50:45I can't do a 90 minute
50:46one I've got to do 60
50:47yeah they can be quite
50:48intense like a 90 minute
50:49one people are really
50:50snoring deep and I'm
50:52like shut up I don't
50:54want to hear that like
50:56the sound of people
50:56breathing annoys me
50:57anyway no offense I
50:58haven't heard you
50:59breathe but coughing
51:00kills me I mean coughing
51:02in the theater or
51:03coughing wherever in the
51:04cinema I'm like please
51:05please just I remember
51:07there was a I know
51:08some people have issues
51:09I know some people have
51:09cough issues please I'm
51:10not talking about you
51:11I'm talking about people
51:12who if you say the word
51:13cough to them they just
51:13cough and I can control
51:15my bodily fluid sounds
51:18especially as a live
51:19broadcaster but there
51:19was a great moment I
51:20think it was the
51:21Wigmore Hall a few years
51:22ago just gave out cough
51:23suites preemptively
51:24because the performers
51:25were so done with the
51:28audience and the
51:29cacophony of coughs which
51:31was a very hard thing to
51:32say and I just managed it
51:33and I think they got a
51:34bit of backlash because
51:36some audience members
51:37like you're talking to me
51:38and then you know so
51:40sound bath can be 60
51:42minutes yes I mean I
51:44feel like for some
51:45people that's too long
51:47some people cannot sit
51:48still for that no and
51:49you lie down a lot for
51:50them don't you I think
51:51I've only ever done it
51:52twice you've got to be
51:52relaxed I mean I love
51:54all that kind of thing
51:55yoga nidra sound bath
51:56sign me up but music I
51:58think is a very simple
51:59but really great tip
52:00kitchen disco a little
52:01bit as well I love that
52:03Emma Barnett thank you so
52:04much for joining me for
52:04well enough thank you I
52:06feel very well after
52:07that you too so good
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