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most iconic bakeries by choosing community over scale. As longtime partners and operators, they’ve spent three decades proving that patience and care can turn a neighborhood shop into a national brand.
Watch now to learn how a batch of cookies became a national brand, how community fueled their growth, and why slow expansion built something that lasts.
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Watch now to learn how a batch of cookies became a national brand, how community fueled their growth, and why slow expansion built something that lasts.
Sponsored by:
• TOAST - All-In-1 Restaurant POS: https://bit.ly/3vpeVsc
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NewsTranscript
00:00I actually just saw a clip on Instagram of the last five finishers of the New York Marathon
00:06to celebrate the completion of something. And all of those people that stayed around,
00:12there's something magical about the endurance that it takes. That's almost how I feel as a
00:16restaurateur. Welcome to Restaurant Influencers presented by Entrepreneur. I'm your host,
00:31Sean Walchef. This is a Cali BBQ Media production in life, in the restaurant business, and in the
00:38new creator economy. We learn through lessons and stories. How does a story become a legend?
00:47When the story is so good that a person cannot help but telling another human about that story.
00:55A human by the name of Avi Gorin, he is the co-founder of Marquis, one of our digital hospitality
01:01partners.
01:02He told me about a year ago about the best cookie on earth. I said, Avi, tell me more. He
01:10said,
01:10there is a company and their name is Lovin. They are going to blow you away with how good these
01:17cookies are. I have to send them to you. So I got my first package of these phenomenal cookies
01:23in the mail. And now today I have the co-founders of this amazing legendary story on the show. I
01:33can't
01:33believe how things happen in life. I'm so grateful that we believe so deeply in storytelling. I have
01:40a barbecue restaurant. 18 years we've been in business. This company is celebrating 30 years
01:47in business. And they published the most soulful book on business that I have ever read. I consume
01:57business books like it is my job. I'm fortunate to have interviewed so many authors and entrepreneurs,
02:03but the love and care and community that they put into this book is something of legend.
02:11Connie McDonald, Pamela Weeks, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having us. You're
02:16going to make me cry. I know. I think I already am crying. Thank you, Sean.
02:21I am so touched by the words that you wrote, by the photos, by the love. When I think about
02:29business,
02:30owning a restaurant for 18 years, what my wife and I and my team have gone through the blood,
02:36the sweat, and the tears. I hope you've given me so much hope for the next 12 years to be
02:44able to
02:44capture what we've done in our little community. So thank you so much for putting that together. I
02:51can't imagine how long it's been, how hard it's been, but let's get into it. So I want to start
02:57with something that you wrote in the foreword. Some legacies are measured in recipes kept secret.
03:03Ours, we've realized, is measured in the stories we choose to share. Who wants to start?
03:13Connie?
03:15Well, you know, first of all, thank you for completely understanding
03:23our book and our, you know, journey sounds kind of corny, but, you know, that's what it was.
03:31But, um, I think the stories really mean everything to us. Um, and I can't tell you how many times,
03:43you know, we kind of either to each other or to other people, you know, we'll just start laughing
03:49and telling these stories to, um, people who just kind of, um, are eating it up and, you know, for,
04:02and you know, what's so funny? It's like, everyone's got a story, you know, which is like, I find amazing,
04:08you know, it's like when we, we've been meeting so many people on this book tour and everyone's got
04:13a story of either the first time they went to the bakery or even, you know, it's, it's just so
04:19funny
04:19how they, they'll cut the cookies into quarters and they freeze through, you know, so everyone's
04:23got, everyone's got their story. And, um, it really, it means so much, um, means so much to us.
04:31Yeah. And in writing the book and working on it, you know, we wanted to include other people's
04:36stories as well. And, you know, in reaching out to people and talking to people, we've been in touch
04:43with a lot of people consistently over the last 30 years, you know, customers, vendors, people we
04:49worked with at one point, it's just like, we don't need to write anything. We should just publish all
04:54of these stories, which we didn't do, but at some point I think that would be amazing because, you know,
05:00we've shared some of people's stories in addition to our stories. And it's just like in hearing
05:06how much, you know, the bakery has been a part of their lives in different ways. It really,
05:14I don't know, it made us feel so good about what we are doing.
05:18I think that might be probably one of the most powerful parts about the book is that not only
05:23are you open and honest as entrepreneurs about the struggles, how hard it was when you were doing
05:30$50 a day in sales and, you know, not having air conditioning and just so many different
05:35challenges that you went through, but to see the outreach from the people in the communities
05:42that have supported you and their diverse perspective of, you know, what magical things
05:49a business can do to a community that, I mean, to be honest with you, that's why we get into
05:54this
05:55crazy business of hospitality. You know, you hope to make an impact on the neighborhood,
06:01but in order to make an impact, you've got to be willing to do the work. Can you bring us
06:06back to
06:06the, to the beginning, to the, to the opening? Yeah. You know, people ask us all the time,
06:14like what was opening day? Like were there lines down the street? And it's just so funny because
06:21it's like, I think that a lot of people have a hard time imagining, you know, what life was like
06:26then, you know, there was, there were barely cell phones, there was no social media, there was nothing.
06:32So opening day, you know, it was a cold day in December and we just kind of, um, opened the
06:38doors
06:38and just, we were still doing, um, making wholesale bread. So we just kind of, um, opened the doors,
06:47continued, you know, baking for our wholesale accounts and a few people trickled in here and there.
06:54Um, we prayed people would come in. I literally prayed for months that somebody would buy a cup
06:59of coffee. Cause we actually had nice coffee, but you know, people in New York get in their routines
07:03and it's not, you know, it's hard to break those routines. It takes time and patience.
07:09Yeah. But, you know, right from that first day, I do remember like,
07:15like our first customers just having like really great conversations with them, you know,
07:19and everyone was like really interested in hanging around and talking for like, you know, 10 or 15
07:26minutes. And, um, it was, they were excited. Yeah. They were excited to have a new bakery on their
07:32block. You know, it's, it's a pretty residential block. We're near the corner. Uh, but most of their,
07:38the corner, you know, like the first, I don't know, 50 or a hundred yards in there are some businesses,
07:44but then the rest of the block is, is residential. Um, so people were really excited.
07:49Did you know that toast powers over 140,000 restaurants across the United States, Canada,
07:56and UK? It's an incredible company. I'm on the toast customer advisory board. They are proud
08:01sponsors of this show, restaurant influencers. We couldn't do it without their support. They power
08:06our barbecue restaurants in San Diego. If you have questions about toast, if you're thinking about
08:11bringing toast on to be your primary technology partner at your restaurants, please reach out to
08:17me. I'm happy to get a local toast representative to take care of you. You can reach me at Sean
08:22P.
08:23Welcheff on Instagram. Once again, thank you to toast for believing in the power of technology,
08:28the power of storytelling, the power of hospitality. Back to the show. I would love to hear number one,
08:35the story about the name and how do you properly pronounce the name? It's the picture that you
08:44have in the book with all the pronunciations. I can only imagine, uh, what you've had to go through
08:49over the years. So please properly pronounce the name of the bakery for our audience.
08:56You want to take that one, Pam? It's okay. So it's Leven. It's a French term for like a natural
09:03leavening, like a sourdough starter. Um, and it's actually been great over the years because
09:09people don't know how to pronounce it. So people talk about it, which what more could you want?
09:15People come in on a Sunday morning and said, I was at a dinner party last night and I was
09:19having
09:19this conversation. Like none of us could agree, like who was right. So, you know, we, we've loved
09:25that. Um, the story of how we picked it, we didn't want to use anything personal. We wanted something
09:31that was, you know, applicable to what we were doing, which at the time was bread. Um, so Connie was
09:40looking through the back of a bread book, I guess, and saw Leven and we have a friend who's a
09:48graphic
09:48designer and he was working with us on creating, you know, a logo. And he said, look at this, this
09:53fits perfectly over bakery and it looks great. So we were like, great, that works.
10:01That's amazing. It's amazing to see all the different pronunciations. I love how you included
10:06it into the book. Um, before, before opening day, there was an Anthony Bourdain story that I would,
10:13I would love to hear, um, more about. Um, so I was working at one fifth Avenue, um, which is
10:24a pretty
10:25famous restaurant space, um, on fifth Avenue and eighth street. It's a really, um, big restaurant
10:32space. Um, and it's got, you know, there's a kind of a legend that it's one of those cursed restaurant
10:39spaces where, you know, it's difficult anyway. So we, I was there with, um, a group of people
10:50that we opened this rendition of the restaurant and it was, um, living up to the curse. We were
10:55doing terribly. And, um, you didn't have a liquor license, did that? I mean, it's hard to open a
11:01restaurant in New York without a liquor license. Right. A 300 seat restaurant. Um, yeah. And so
11:07anyway, the, um, person with whom I was working with, he was, my chef was fired. Um, and they
11:17brought in Anthony Bourdain and, um, but no one really knew who he was then. So I was kind
11:24of standing in my station, um, which was the first station as you come in the service entrance,
11:32um, just like making bread and things. And I could hear these kind of like chains and boots
11:38and things coming down the hallway. I was like, wow. And, um, and then there was like a waft
11:43of cigarette smoke. And then he, he's like, Hey, I was like, hi, he's like, I'm here for the interview.
11:50I was like, well, I guess he'd probably go down there. Anyway, he got the, he got the
11:53job and, um, he was great. He was, you know, just as you would think he was, he was kind
11:59of that bad boy, you know, in the restaurant and he was, you know, he's a really good cook,
12:05um, really nice person. He hung up Harvey Keitel movie posters all around the kitchen and things.
12:12But, you know, when I got wind that I was going to be the next person to be, um, let
12:19go from
12:20this sinking ship. Um, I went to Pam and said, Hey, you know, this is going to happen. What do
12:26you think about, you know, going, you know, approaching Tony and seeing if we can, you know,
12:32have me go off the payroll, um, we'll barter bread for space. Um, we'll buy our own, you know,
12:40ingredients and things and we'll try to get this wholesale bread business off the ground.
12:43And so we approached him with that, like the next day he couldn't have been more excited or
12:49enthusiastic, um, supportive. And he was like, you know, great. And so, um, you know, I even remember
12:57after we, you know, so we were there for probably about six months, right? Pam, I think maybe something
13:03like that. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, even, you know, so we opened on 74th street in December and I do
13:09remember him coming by in the early days. Um, he was friends with, um, Jacques Torres, um, and who
13:18had a bakery around the corner from us and, um, you know, he'd pop in and see how we were.
13:24So he was
13:25great. That's amazing. Can you talk a little bit more about the scrappiness needed? We have so many
13:32entrepreneurs that, that listened to this show that were fortunate, you know, entrepreneur magazine.
13:37We have people that they're, they want to take that leap of faith. Um, scrappiness is just so much a
13:45part of this, this book, a part of your story. Um, can you talk to those people that are, are
13:50thinking
13:51about, you know, maybe they're in a job that they, they don't love and they do want to pursue a
13:55passion. Can you, can you bring us back to how hard it is to truly be scrappy? I think that
14:01people,
14:01um, underestimate how challenging things are going to be. Sometimes, um, you really, you know, you have
14:09to be willing to do anything and you have to expect to do anything and you have to expect that
14:15anything
14:16is going to happen because it will. Um, so you can't let it bother you or fluster you. Um, I
14:25think
14:25so many people have these amazing ideas, but I think that they give up before seeing them
14:31through far enough because things get really hard and they don't, they don't understand that like
14:36things it's, it's really hard. Like, I mean, I can't tell, we worked, you know, I'm sure, you know,
14:42too, you know, the first, I would say the first 18 years, we, we work seven days a week, you
14:50know,
14:5112 to 15 hours a day, you know, we were closed on Thanksgiving day, Christmas day, and new year's
14:56day. And that was it. We didn't, you know, we never asked anyone to do anything that we wouldn't
15:03also do. Um, you know, we worked side by side with everybody. I, we, you know, climbed up on roofs,
15:11you know, clean bathrooms, mop floors, cleaned up, you know, sewage floods from the upstairs neighbors,
15:19you know, every, you know, shoveled snow delivered bread by foot in blizzards. Um,
15:27you know, we, we wanted to be a true neighborhood bakery. So we did everything we could, you know,
15:34no matter what the outside circumstances, like, you know, weather and things were to be there and
15:40be open because, you know, if people were home in their apartments, we wanted to be there for them.
15:47So I would love to, can I interrupt and just say that Pam, that was great, like totally. And, but
15:55you know, every step of the way, like for, like for people who are thinking about doing it,
15:59it was, it was really hard. Yes. But it was always, it was like, really, we never said to ourselves,
16:06like, what are we doing? You know what I mean? It's just like, we loved it so much that it
16:10was just
16:11like, so I think like a real key is that you're doing something that you love in it. It's yeah.
16:18You know, a hundred percent. Yeah. I was going to say that it was fun. It was so much fun.
16:23Yeah. But you put in the book, quitting was never an option, just like dropping out of a race
16:29wasn't an option either. Um, that Ironman mentality, um, that was the foundation of
16:36your guys's friendship of how you met. Um, it's so applicable. I mean, when you think of,
16:41when you think of the marathon, I know the New York marathon just, just concluded and you guys do
16:46something so cool for the runners, but, uh, can you share more about the, the Ironman mentality?
16:53Yeah. I have a kind of a little bit of a funny, like, so when we did the Ironman race
16:59and I don't
16:59think this is in the book, I don't know if many people know this, but when we did the Ironman
17:03race,
17:04you know, we had trained, we were really well-trained. We were, we were ready to go. And, um,
17:11for both of us, um, swimming is our strongest part of the race. So, um, anyway, to make a long
17:23story
17:23short, Pam was like one of the first people out of the water and I was not too far behind.
17:28And, um,
17:29but anyway, so we're like around mile 10 of a 112 mile bike ride and there's Pam on the side
17:35of the
17:35road. And I was like, what's up? And turns out she had a flat tire. I pull over. We, for,
17:44I don't
17:44really know exactly why, but we worked on getting this tire fixed for probably about an hour.
17:50We should preface this. I changed like hundreds of tires before that. Like it wasn't that we didn't
17:57know how to do it. I don't know if there was something stuck in my tire and we were just
18:00so
18:00nervous, but anyway, go ahead. So now we're an hour, we were like in the front and now, and it
18:07was a
18:07three loop like bike course. So now we've seen all of these people go by us, like, you know, two
18:13times,
18:14you know, anyway. So in that, in that vein, like quitting, you know, we could have just said,
18:20okay, we're so far behind now, you know, but you know, get quitting was never an option. Um, and,
18:28um, you know, it was about finishing and, um, we didn't finish last,
18:36we still finished. All right. But if we had had our normal bikes, it would have been right. Right.
18:41But it was just, it's just kind of like, you know, and I even think that of course I, that
18:47made it
18:47even more difficult, I think, because you know, you're now it's like, you're so far behind, but
18:52it, um, honestly, I think it gave us both. It certainly gave me a different perspective in a
18:59race because I wasn't, you know, I was pretty competitive and so was Connie. Like we, you know,
19:04we finished pretty strongly in most races and, uh, you know, I never really thought about it,
19:11but like the people who are out there who are a little bit slower, who are out there for so
19:15much
19:16longer. Wow. I, it, I give them, it really gave me a different understanding of the mentality to be
19:24out there for that much longer. Yeah. There's something magical about the, the endurance that
19:31it takes, the perseverance. I actually just saw a clip on Instagram of the last five finishers of
19:38the New York marathon. It's amazing. How cool is that? Yep. Like to celebrate the completion of
19:45something and all of those people that stayed around in the lights to welcome them back home.
19:50Yeah. I know. Yeah. That's almost how I feel as a restauranteur.
19:55Well, it's a, it's a community. It's the same, same idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think,
20:01you know, that, that says it all the community, the people.
20:05So one of the things that we believe we, you know, we built a media company on top of our,
20:09our barbecue restaurants. Um, we believe that no one's coming to tell your story. You know,
20:15there's this, this myth, I think, because of the, the Kevin Costner movie field of dreams,
20:19if you build it, they will come. And, uh, I think you guys are a perfect example of if you
20:26build it,
20:26they won't come, but they might. And it takes a little bit of magic along the way to help really
20:34propel that story. Can you, uh, can you share the Amanda Hesser story for the audience?
20:42Hmm. Um, sure. So one night, um, in 1997, which is about two years after we had opened, you know,
20:52things were, we were doing okay, but it was, things were really, you know, still quiet and things,
20:57but you know, it was okay. And so there, yeah, we were the only two there. I was mopping the
21:03floor,
21:03um, and Pam was in the back, um, at 74th street, which is this tiny, you know, freezing cold in
21:10the
21:11winter office and things. And so, um, the phone rang and this woman says, introduces herself as
21:18Amanda Hesser. And then at that point, she was as unknown as we were as a bakery. You know, it
21:24was,
21:24she was also very young in her career and things and, and that she was from the New York times.
21:29And I
21:30just thought that she was calling to like, sell us a subscription to the New York times. And, um,
21:37so anyway, she went on to say that, um, that she was a new writer for the New York times
21:43is writing
21:43the temptation column, which was a big deal then in the Wednesday food section of the New York times,
21:48like everybody read the food section. And, and she said, and we want to feature you. I was like,
21:53wow, you know, that's amazing. And she's like, I'm just, you know, she didn't say one way or the
21:59other, if it was amazing or if it wasn't. So I was just, you know, she was just kind of
22:03fact checking, um, and getting our names correct and everything. And so, you know, she's like,
22:08little, you know, it's going to run tomorrow. We're like, okay. Um, thank you so much. And,
22:13you know, I hang out and tell Pam. And so the next morning I said, you know, I'm going to,
22:19I'm going to the newsstand. Um, and Pam, you know, uh, in her words of wisdom, she's like,
22:24if it's not good, don't buy any money. So, you know, I picked it up. It was, it was amazing.
22:38Um, you know, I think I bought like five copies, um, and ran back to the bakery. Um, so yeah,
22:46that was really exciting. People started calling from all over the country, which
22:51access and yeah. Yeah. And our, our phones, you know, um, really started, really started ringing
23:01a lot. And then what was amazing, not only were people calling, but you know, it was back then.
23:07And I think now still, you know, when the New York times, um, features you, it definitely piques the
23:14interest of other publications and outlets and things. And so other people started, um,
23:20um, you know, reaching out to us and things. So it was, it was, it was our first like real
23:26life-changing moment. Well, and also it got us thinking because people were calling from all
23:33over the country saying like, how do I get your cookies? How do I get your cookies? And that's
23:36when we thought, Oh, we need to like figure out how to ship these. Um, and we had done something
23:44very early on with, um, Williams-Sonoma. And so we were drop shipping a product for them,
23:50for their catalog. So we had, you know, a little bit of experience and information on that. So
23:55we were able to pretty quickly do that. And we got, I was so happy because we got a toll
24:01-free number
24:02that was 877-411. And that was like, I thought that was really amazing.
24:08It was amazing. Now, were you selling these cookies from day one, these chocolate
24:13cookies? No. One day I was, so we were making those cookies for ourselves, like for years,
24:21but we weren't, you know, we started out as wholesale bread. And so when we opened
24:26at 74th street, we continued to do a lot of different breads and things. Um, but pretty early
24:32on within the first few weeks, I was somewhere not there and Connie was alone and I was really
24:37quiet and she was like, eh, I'll make a batch of these cookies and a batch being like 12
24:41cookies. So she made them and put them out and basically gave them away. Essentially,
24:48she's charged so little for them. Um, and people like them.
24:53Dangerous when left alone.
24:54Yeah. Selling a slice of bread. Yeah. She'll sell anything.
25:05Yeah. So, so the cookies, when Amanda Hester came, they weren't a big part of the menu. Is that
25:13correct?
25:15Well, I think by that point it'd been, um, like I said, almost two years. Is that right? A year
25:21and
25:21a half. I forget.
25:22So you were selling more cookies than bread at that point.
25:25No, no, no, no, no, no, not at all. But we were selling cookies. We were selling a lot
25:29of bread then.
25:30I think only, I think, I think then we just had the chocolate chip, walnut and oatmeal raisin.
25:39Okay.
25:40Yeah.
25:40I think.
25:42But then when the article came out, it was all cookies or all everything?
25:47The article is about the cookies.
25:52So people came.
25:53So that's what people got, got most interested in. I think, you know, the cookies were the
25:59most unusual thing because at that point, no one else was doing cookies like that. So
26:03it was really, you know, intriguing. You could go different places and buy breads. You know,
26:08we were doing different breads than everybody else was. We tried to do things that, you know,
26:13we love that weren't available other places so easily, more, you know, unique to us kind
26:19of things. Like we made a focaccia with rosemary and red grapes and we did, you know, a bunch
26:26of different semelinas and things like that. But the cookies, like nobody made with now lots
26:32of people make large cookies, but at that point, nobody, I mean, cookies weren't a big thing
26:38and certainly nobody was doing them in that format. So I think people were really intrigued
26:43and they're, they are really, they're delicious. They're, they're, you know, that, that size
26:48makes them crunchy on the outside and really, you know, soft and chewy inside. They're great
26:53to share. I mean, Connie and I both love to share food because then you can taste more,
26:59you know, you have lots of, it's so much more fun.
27:02Um, so just, I think, I think people were intrigued.
27:07Yeah. And I do think like the size, the size of them was about the texture and that we just
27:14always shared, you know, it's like, it was just so much, so much fun to share them. Um,
27:21yeah, we were saying over the weekend, like, I just don't get it when someone says, I don't
27:26share my food. You're like, really? Isn't that what it's all about?
27:33Well, speaking of sharing, let's talk about sharing your story and this book. Um, like I said,
27:40I've, I've read lots and lots. I love reading business books, but the soul that is in this book,
27:48the love that you guys put, um, allowing your community to write their perspective, featuring
27:53your team members that have been with you from the beginning featuring pets. I mean,
27:58that's so cool to have pictures of, of all the pets. Um, I've never been, um, to the 74th street.
28:05I'm going to go in December when I bring my, my wife and my kids. Um, we're going to be
28:10doing an
28:10event with Google over there, but I will come to see it. I feel after reading the book that I've,
28:15I've been there and I've lived there. I feel like I've, I've sat on the bench. Um, can you share
28:20the process of writing this book and what you've learned by doing it? Well, the first thing I'll
28:25say is that it was a lot more personal than I ever anticipated because in starting out, I guess we
28:32didn't think that, I don't know how much of like ourselves are actually in the bakery. Like we never
28:41looked at it like that. Um, so that was really, really challenging, but it was just like the,
28:49the process of sort of reliving some of these stories and times and just talking to everybody.
28:55It was so much fun. Like I said, I think I said earlier, you know, it was amazing to talk
29:01to
29:01everybody and, and it just makes you grateful for all these connections. How about you?
29:08Well, you know, I think that, and I, I know I speak for Pam that the people are the story,
29:17the people are everything. The cookies are great, you know, but people, a lot of people make great
29:21cookies and things, but you know, the bakery and the community of people and friends and fellow
29:28employees that we worked with are, are everything, you know, and it's like you could, it was palatable
29:39when you walked in, when you, people would walk in the bakery and, you know, we'd all be in there.
29:46So it was just kind of contagious, you know, that people just wanted to be a part of it. I
29:51remember
29:51one time it was the day before Thanksgiving and it was so busy at 74th street and we were so
29:58packed
29:58in there. And Pam was uptown at our Harlem location. She had ordered, um, chirping chicken,
30:07which is this place on Amsterdam and 77th street to, for, to bring us for lunch. And the guy,
30:14and we're just in there, the music's blaring. Everyone's like having fun. It's so packed and
30:19we're passing cookies to each other. The chirping chicken guy puts down his bags and starts passing
30:24the cookies too. And he was like having, it was just contagious, you know? And I just think,
30:29you know, and I know that a lot of like, we always talk about like a lot of women who,
30:35um, had been like stay at home moms who were like thinking about reentering the workforce and they
30:41would like come in the bakery and that, that would be a place where they thought, you know,
30:45wow, this feels great. I think I could, you know, work here and I could, you know, reenter a place
30:53where otherwise I felt kind of maybe scared or overwhelmed. And it was just kind of a really
30:59amazing, welcoming, fun place that I'm so grateful.
31:04We've had such a diversity of like people who worked with us, you know, attorneys who were really
31:12unhappy doing that and wanted to do something else. Um, you know, all kinds of different people,
31:17but like something that I would say to people wanting to start a business is, you know, you
31:23really do something that you really, you know, love and are passionate about. Don't do something
31:28like we didn't start the bakery to quote, make money. We started the bakery because we wanted like
31:34a great place to work. You know, we wanted to have a good time. We both loved, you know,
31:39as Connie said, food and eating, you know, we both love baking. Um, and something that I always say
31:45is like focused on the people and the product, not the finances. It's like, you have to be aware of
31:52the numbers, but if you focus on the numbers, you're going to really lose sight of what's
31:58important in your business. We always say we build our, our media and our stories. Like we build our
32:05barbecue low and slow. Um, it's interesting in a world that we live in where we chase, especially in
32:12the business entrepreneur world where we chase unicorns. We want to scale quickly and see how
32:17fast something can become profitable or how big can it get. Um, something I love so much about your
32:23story, which is kind of an antithesis to the iron man side is that like, it's the tortoise and the
32:30hare, right? Like as businesses, we want to be that, we want to be that hare that you grow and
32:36you're
32:36profitable and you can open up your second store and then you can get your branded truck and then you
32:41can
32:41get into wholesale and you can do CPG and you can do all this stuff, but like, there's something
32:45beautiful about the tortoise about low and slow growth. Can you share about your philosophy on,
32:53on growing slowly? We've always, go ahead. No, no, no, go ahead. No, go ahead. All right. Well,
33:01I'll just say quickly that, you know, I always say that like the number one ingredient,
33:06like in baking bread, we think is like time, you know, and a slow cold fermentation in baking bread
33:13in, in our opinion is like the most important thing. Um, and I think that the same thing holds
33:22true for what our philosophy was for our business was just like, you know, in the first place, I mean,
33:29our whole goal when we, when we first opened was just to have 74th street, we never imagined anything
33:36more. Um, but as things progressed and we did start to grow, we made sure that, um, you know,
33:45we grew out of necessity, really not out of just because we needed, you know, more space or something.
33:51It wasn't out of, Oh, we have to grow so that our EBITDA, um, increases, you know? Um, so it,
34:00when it, our philosophy and growing was that, you know, when we are stable and we've got this set,
34:08then we can think about opening something else, you know, we were in no rush. Somebody once talked
34:15to me about like growing a brand to maturity. And I was like, what does that mean? Just like open
34:20as
34:20many as you can, as fast as you can, until it's like terrible and not worth anything to anybody,
34:25you know, like that's just a different mindset. Yeah. What's, what's the secret to keeping the soul
34:32as you grow? The people. Totally. It's the people. We always thought, you know, um,
34:43in our hiring, regardless of what position it was for that you have to make sure that,
34:51you know, we always said that you have to be a good, nice person, you know, and, and cause anything
34:59else can be taught or, but if, if you're not like a genuinely like nice person, then it's probably not
35:07going to be the right place for you. And until we found those right people, then both Pam and I
35:12were
35:12willing to work harder. You know, it wasn't, you know, we never hired because, you know, I need,
35:20I need to fill, you know, a position and I'll, I'll just take anyone. Um, because that,
35:28as we all know, it doesn't take much, you know, it can be a really slippery slope.
35:33Um, what's the recipe for crafting a beautiful novel, a beautiful book, a beautiful story?
35:44Hmm. Oh boy. I don't know, but our co-writer, you know, you know, I'm holding it in my hands.
35:51You absolutely know. Well, you know, I think it's our heart and soul. There's a lot of,
35:57there's a lot of honesty in there, you know? Yeah. And I think that, you know,
36:03I think, I don't know. I think that both Pam and I were very forthcoming with like who we are.
36:13And I think it's helpful for people, you know, who are thinking about opening or being an entrepreneur
36:21or something to, to know that, you know, it's like the road less traveled sometimes to get where you
36:32eventually want to be is sometimes the road, you know, that will get you there. Um, and,
36:38you know, I think that that's why we felt kind of compelled to, um, you know, share some of our
36:46personal. Yeah. As I say, I think we did it, you know, looked at things a little bit differently
36:51than a lot of people. Um, and we really believe, you know, that the way we built this company
36:59is a great way to build a business. I mean, like work, we all have to work. So why, why,
37:08why do work environments have to be terrible? Like they don't have to be, you know, there's a
37:13different way to do things. And we just really wanted to share that.
37:19When you were finishing the book, what had to get edited that you wish actually made it in?
37:28Oh,
37:33So there's, um, the woman who co-wrote the book with us, Claudine Co, um, was amazing. And,
37:41you know, we chose her, um, out of like, we had a, of three other writers who were all
37:49amazing, lovely, but Claudine, we kind of felt a connection with that. You know, we,
37:54we just felt instantly like we would be friends and, you know, we were right about it. And, um,
38:02it was really great. But so what did get edited out that I thought was amazing. She actually did
38:09this recipe for what was it, Pam, like a, a successful business partnership.
38:16But it was so, it was so clever. Um, I think that we'll eventually share it somewhere. I hope.
38:24Yeah. That got edited out.
38:28Tell me about the ingredients of the book. You talked about the people, obviously, um,
38:34just constructing the book. Was it, was it more difficult than you thought?
38:38Yes.
38:40Yeah.
38:40You know, it was more difficult. It took, we spent like almost two years on it. Um, you know,
38:45and, and we really, you know, every Saturday and Sunday, like it was kind of an all day
38:53thing. Yeah. What, one thing that was really challenging was people kept on asking us for
38:59all of these photos. Right. And have a cell phone camera back in 1995, you know, taking Polaroids
39:08of each other, you know? Yeah. Um, but, um, you know, it came together. We, we, we were able
39:15to, in that process, like I remember looking cause people were asking us, do you have photos
39:22of the throwdown with Bobby flight? We were like, we didn't know we were there, but then
39:33we came across this, this little girl had take, I don't know. She was, it's in the book and she
39:40had taken a photo of herself in front of us on the television with Bobby Flay. It was, and she
39:47had
39:47sent it to us, um, in a letter and we had, you know, so it was just like, and it
39:52turned out that
39:53that was really so, it was just so different that it was, it turned out better than like,
40:00I think, you know, just the regular photo would have been, but, um, it was challenging.
40:05Yeah. That's something else. I mean, the, the letters and notes and things that people have
40:09shared with us over the years, like if, if we could include it all have included all of those,
40:14that would have been amazing too, you know? Well, the fact that you included as many as you did
40:20makes it as beautiful a read as it is. Thank you so much. I'm so glad that you enjoyed it.
40:27You didn't know how much that means to us. I will, I will tell in every entrepreneur on earth,
40:31that is one of the most important business books that they add to their collection. Um,
40:35if they want to build something meaningful and things that are meaningful, take time.
40:41It means, it means, it means the world to me. I can't, I can't wait to come and visit the
40:46original
40:47location. Um, I will do that. Um, when we come out there in December, um, is there any,
40:52is there anything that, that we should know about the story that, that we haven't talked about today?
40:56I know there's so much more, but whoever's listening to this, please seriously buy the book,
41:02buy the book, buy cookies, gift cookies, because you can gift cookies. Um,
41:08what else should we know? Any, any parting words of wisdom for those entrepreneurs that are out there
41:13that are, that are at that bike moment where the tire is broken and they can't see their way through
41:19it?
41:19Don't give up. You've got a dream. You believe in it and you're, you, you are right. Follow it through.
41:26Yeah. And it doesn't happen overnight, but the journey is, um, most of the fun.
41:34It's so much fun. It's, uh, it's, it's such an honor. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you
41:40guys
41:40coming onto our show, um, putting all the love, the sweat, the tears, the effort into this book that
41:47will last, as you said, you know, for generations. So people know, um, what it's like, what it's like
41:53to actually build a brand, a brand with soul, a brand with community of grand with love. Um,
41:59it's such an amazing story. I'm so grateful that I have the opportunity. Thank you to toast
42:03our primary technology partner for, for sponsoring this show, for giving us the opportunity to collect,
42:08connect with entrepreneurs all over the world, um, to share their stories because there's somebody
42:14that's building something meaningful. And, you know, like I said, we're, we believe we're doing
42:18the same thing in San Diego and I can't wait for the next 12 years. Thanks to stories like this.
42:23I can't wait. Thank you so much. Thank you, Sean. It's really been amazing.
42:28Oh, we appreciate you as always. Um, if you guys want to reach out to me, it's at Sean P.
42:33Wellchef, uh, we will put links so that you can buy the book so that you can support the cookie
42:39business, the ever-growing cookie business. Um, for those of you that are in Boston, I know they're
42:43in Boston. I know they're in Chicago. Um, how many States are you guys in now?
42:48Hmm. Let's see. Um, Boston, Chicago, Philadelphia, California, New York.
42:56Amazing. Yeah. And, uh, the other thing real quickly for those that love good illustrations,
43:02the illustrations in the book are just absolutely phenomenal. Who did those?
43:09The, um, there are several. Yeah. So the one, right. Yeah.
43:17They're so good.
43:19The, uh, I think the opening flap with the mural from, uh, LA. Yeah. Yeah. From us.
43:31Well, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for, uh, what you do for the community. I wish
43:36you,
43:36you and the team, nothing but success. And, uh, as always, if stay curious,
43:42get involved and don't be afraid to ask for help. We will catch you all next episode.
43:48Thank you for watching. Thank you for listening. If you've made it this long,
43:51you are part of the community. You're part of the tribe. We can't do this alone. We started,
43:56no one was listening. Now we have a community of digital hospitality leaders all over the globe.
44:01Please check out our new series called restaurant technology, sub stack. It's a sub stack newsletter.
44:07It's free. It's some of our deep work on the best technology for restaurants. Also go to YouTube
44:12and subscribe to Cali barbecue media, Cali barbecue media on YouTube. We've been putting out a lot of new
44:18original content. Hopefully you guys like that content. If you want to work with us,
44:22go to be the show.media. We show up all over the United States, some international countries.
44:27We would love to work with you and your growing brand on digital storytelling. You can reach out
44:32to me anytime at Sean P. Welchef on Instagram. I'm weirdly available. Stay curious, get involved,
44:38and don't be afraid to ask for help. We'll catch you next episode.
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