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00:00:27Annunzio Vobis
00:00:29Gaudium Magnum
00:00:39Abebus Papam
00:01:14Gaudium Magnum
00:01:22Gaudium Magnum
00:01:23Gaudium Magnum
00:01:23Gaudium Magnum
00:01:25Gaudium Magnum
00:01:26Gaudium Magnum
00:01:27Gaudium Magnum
00:01:29Gaudium Magnum
00:01:30Gaudium Magnum
00:01:31Gaudium Magnum
00:01:57It was an echte stop in the maag
00:01:58Gisteravond op deze zender de eerste aflevering van God Vergeten
00:02:02Veel leed, veel verdriet, veel verwoeste levens, veel vragen ook nog steeds
00:02:07Weet u het nog, hoe boos we allemaal waren?
00:02:10Het bestaat echt, het is gebeurd, het bestaat en het gebeurt nog steeds
00:02:15Wij vertellen geen fantasie, wij vertellen gewoon de waarheid
00:02:19Het was een beetje een openbaring toch wel
00:02:22Nog een mens, nog een
00:02:24Ik ben niet alleen
00:02:26Diep raken de getuigenissen van slachtoffers die door geestelijke misbruik zijn
00:02:31Zowat alle Vlaamse partijen willen dat er een federale onderzoekscommissie komt
00:02:35Naar misbruik in de kerk
00:02:40Hoeveel zaken zijn er de afgelopen dertien jaar
00:02:43Vanuit de kerk zelf opgekuist?
00:02:47De bischoppen hebben nogmaals hun excuses aangeboden
00:02:50Voor hun aanpak van het misbruik of het geprek daaraan
00:02:53Er zijn superveel excuses op tafel gekomen waarvoor dank
00:02:57Maar daar hebben we niks aan
00:03:02De eerste officiële bezoekdag van paus Franciscus aan ons land
00:03:07Lijkt nu al helemaal in het teken te staan van de slachtoffers
00:03:12Mensen die ziek worden, worden geholpen
00:03:16Wij, waar staan wij?
00:03:17In een rechtschapen, democratische maatschappij
00:03:20Hebben wij als slachtoffer en overlever
00:03:23Recht op de waarheid, gerechtigheid en erkenning
00:03:27Nee
00:04:15He hangs already above Belgium, Paus Franciscus, but his flight is not yet on the military
00:04:21in Melsbroek. We're going to look at the so-called flight radar here. We can follow the
00:04:28pause flight. At this moment he flies above Leuven. He makes a path towards Brussels
00:04:36and he will land over Luttele minuten in Melsbroek.
00:04:42I think that this is the event of 60 minutes later than I expected. No, not yet. Ah, it's a
00:04:53luxury air
00:04:54toestel.
00:05:01The Belgian bishops have 15 victims of abuse in the church who will speak to Paus Franciscus.
00:05:09You have to know that there were 80 candidates to speak to the Paus and there are only 15
00:05:14people selected. They will say, how does that happen? Blijkbaar, without the victims having
00:05:20said.
00:05:21I was chosen. I'm happy to go to Paus, but in double
00:05:26sense of the other victims who don't go, like Jean, for example.
00:05:32The PAUS has a drug program. There is also a meeting, you know, with victims of sexual abuse
00:05:41in the church. A little hour is very little for a meeting with 15 people who have chosen
00:05:49to be able to speak to the Paus. A little rickensommetje has learned that you have
00:05:53four minutes per person.
00:05:55If you hear that someone gets four minutes, what can you say, in three or four minutes
00:06:00everything will be explained correctly.
00:06:03There are a lot of questions.
00:06:06I see here someone in cardinal's room and I see here different bishops.
00:06:14There will be more than that to be able to give trust.
00:06:18And here he is, the Paus.
00:06:21It can't be surprised that he will be taken this way.
00:06:24He looks a bit like this.
00:06:25What is this all?
00:06:26It's clearly a hearty invitation.
00:06:28The British Forster Huis has a very good relationship with the Vatican.
00:06:34Oh, there he goes.
00:06:36The cape.
00:06:37I said I would see the Pope because it would be a spectacle to see the Pope.
00:06:40Everyone doesn't see the Pope.
00:06:45Well, I was selected.
00:06:48But 15 people, it's very few.
00:06:50Because for those who have not been able to see the Pope, it's very deceiving.
00:07:07That's what a photo, Jon.
00:07:09Yeah, indeed.
00:07:12All right, Jon.
00:07:14What happened to me when you look at the photo, I've seen it very differently.
00:07:22Yeah.
00:07:24The people with the pauses and the priests and the bishops and so on.
00:07:29I've never had to do so many things with me.
00:07:34That's what I see behind you.
00:07:38That's what I see behind you.
00:07:39That's what I see.
00:07:45I feel like if there's a whole pack on my shoulders.
00:07:49And I'd like to have everything to turn over to the victims.
00:07:53But I'd be willing to turn over to those victims.
00:07:55That's right.
00:07:56Even for four minutes.
00:07:56I can't.
00:07:57But what I'd be willing to do, to the end of you,
00:08:00is well...
00:08:02What would you say about your name?
00:08:04I'd certainly miss your name.
00:08:08Well, I want to tell you that I am this person.
00:08:14If that didn't happen, I would be a different person.
00:08:19I remember very much when I was 12 years old,
00:08:24when I was 17 years old.
00:08:26That picture was still in my head.
00:08:43I was a victim of four Jesuits for 4-5 years.
00:08:52I was at the Choral College of Saint-Michel.
00:08:54I had a pretty good voice.
00:08:57And the professor, who was my title in 6th Latin,
00:09:00was also the director of the Choral.
00:09:02And it's like that, little by little,
00:09:05I was a child and I didn't understand what happened to me.
00:09:10I just knew that something happened.
00:09:25Here is a photo of me as a child,
00:09:28by my plechtige commune.
00:09:30When I see that photo,
00:09:32I think mainly about the child that I was
00:09:36a few months ago.
00:09:41And...
00:09:42Yes...
00:09:43And that is here completely gone.
00:09:47The abuse has been around 3 years since my 14th
00:09:51period.
00:09:57Can I tell you how the abuse makes me happy?
00:10:01...that I can't live a 30- surgeries moment.
00:10:04I actually cannot wash my daughter.
00:10:07I don't want to wash my daughter.
00:10:10My daughter is 7 years old.
00:10:12I can't wash her.
00:10:14I think that's bad. That doesn't work.
00:10:26You get a very wrong picture for the rest of your life
00:10:31about what sexuality is.
00:10:36It can't anymore for me, Nada.
00:10:42A real life, you can't.
00:10:45You can't bind yourself.
00:10:48It's very difficult.
00:10:50I'm now 33 years old.
00:10:52I'm going back to school because I have my daughter.
00:10:58I have to show my daughter that it's possible.
00:11:01I don't think it's possible.
00:11:05I don't think it's possible for people like us,
00:11:09but I don't think it's possible.
00:11:17I don't think it's possible.
00:11:29I don't think it's possible.
00:11:31It's possible to see someone who's destroyed, in fact,
00:11:34in drinking like that, like a fool.
00:11:36It's true that I've lost a great part of a family life
00:11:43a little happy.
00:11:45I don't think it's possible.
00:11:48I don't think it's possible for people to live with a son
00:11:48who was suicide, alcoholic.
00:11:51And for sure, when you're 10 years old,
00:11:53when you're 12 years old,
00:11:54you're like your father.
00:11:56You don't know what's going on at all.
00:11:58You don't understand.
00:11:58I don't know what you've seen.
00:12:01I don't know what I've seen since then.
00:12:01There are two guys who carry themselves out of their lives
00:12:04by having the birthrights of what they did before.
00:12:07And that's true.
00:12:09I think it's very harsh.
00:12:10The people who've implemented it
00:12:11are a sort of murderers.
00:12:19And then I find it our task, my task, to speak for those people.
00:12:43How do we hear how our lives were broken?
00:13:13It's about their own kind.
00:13:14The Kerk has often said that they had one another.
00:13:17We want to make sure that this change will come.
00:13:21That you will find everything out.
00:13:24Politically, also rights.
00:13:26I hear from some advocates that there are concerns
00:13:29of everything in the police and justice correct.
00:13:32I think that you should take care of that.
00:13:34You have the courage to take this underste steen.
00:13:39I also want you to find out
00:13:40what happened with the dossiers of Operation Kelk.
00:13:44Where are they?
00:13:45Who has them removed?
00:13:47And under the influence of who?
00:13:49I haven't talked about the role
00:13:50that the Kerk has played in this world.
00:13:52They are blinded as a devil in a sea.
00:13:56It brings us to this way more harm.
00:13:58I have hope for you.
00:14:00I hope that you don't stand up.
00:14:02And that you can make the Kerk
00:14:06that you are responsible.
00:14:08With their minds, they speak themselves the words.
00:14:12But their heart is still ignored
00:14:16by the inability of their power
00:14:18and their total, total responsibility
00:14:22of self-esteem.
00:14:24You have to mess everything out.
00:14:26That's just so.
00:14:27Do your job.
00:14:28Go ahead.
00:14:33Go ahead.
00:14:45Go ahead.
00:14:48Go ahead.
00:14:50Go ahead.
00:14:54Go ahead.
00:14:55Go ahead.
00:14:56Go ahead.
00:14:57Go ahead.
00:14:58Go ahead.
00:14:59Go ahead.
00:15:00Go ahead.
00:15:01Go ahead.
00:15:11Go ahead.
00:15:13Go ahead.
00:15:22Go ahead.
00:15:26Go ahead.
00:15:27Go ahead.
00:15:27Go ahead.
00:15:28Go ahead.
00:15:28Go ahead.
00:15:29Go ahead.
00:15:29Go ahead.
00:15:31Never.
00:15:47Yes, I would like to do it in the Netherlands,
00:15:50but that asks a lot of nuances.
00:15:56I feel better in my mother tongue, so in French.
00:15:59I'm sorry, but I'm going to do it in French for the nuance
00:16:06and the quality of my witness.
00:16:25The King Philip and King Mathilde are here,
00:16:27so I'm going to go to Luc Terlinde.
00:16:30He doesn't fall directly into the hall of other priests,
00:16:33but he becomes bishop,
00:16:35and directly also bishop of our country.
00:16:37Terlinde is 54, actually young,
00:16:40and ready to lead the church for a long time.
00:16:43Just after my invitation as a bishop,
00:16:45I've always been in this reality
00:16:50that has marked me, and that has also been overwhelmed,
00:16:52to hear the witness of the victims.
00:16:56Well, it's called me directly
00:16:57to exercise my new responsibilities as archvêques.
00:17:06Certains m'ont dit ou me disent encore,
00:17:08ah, mais tu en fais trop pour les victimes.
00:17:11Et je leur dis, non, je ne suis pas d'accord,
00:17:12parce que pour moi, c'est aussi au cœur de ma mission d'évêque,
00:17:16c'est aussi là que je vis l'Évangile.
00:17:19Jésus lui-même s'est fait compatissant et proche
00:17:23de ceux qui souffraient des blessés,
00:17:25de ceux qui étaient laissés au bord de la route.
00:17:30Il faut le répéter, c'est un scandale,
00:17:32et ça n'aurait jamais dû arriver.
00:17:33Je pense que, comme dans la société,
00:17:35on n'était pas assez conscient de la gravité des faits.
00:17:38Et en fait, il y avait un tabou, c'était clair.
00:17:40Dans l'Église, comme dans la société, dans les familles,
00:17:42il y avait un tabou.
00:17:42Et bien souvent, la solution qu'on trouvait
00:17:46quand on avait une plainte, c'était de déplacer un tel ou...
00:17:51Et ça, c'est aussi un problème structurel.
00:17:54Donc ça, aujourd'hui, nous ne voulons plus.
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00:20:05Of
00:20:06...
00:20:06...
00:20:09to keep a secret.
00:20:11This happens from an interview that Daniels had...
00:20:13...with the man of Evangelion.
00:20:15The newspaper Standard publishes today...
00:20:17...the report of it.
00:20:19We know about it.
00:20:21We're talking about it.
00:20:23We have a very good system...
00:20:25...and nobody can do that.
00:20:27And they thought God to be...
00:20:30...but...
00:20:32...niemand...
00:20:33...much can be God in this world.
00:20:35The man of Evangelion had the meeting...
00:20:37...and gave the tape to it.
00:20:49The Belgians asked their colleague Roger Van Geluwen...
00:20:53...to put his act as a priest and bishop.
00:20:57Van Geluwen put 13 years ago a step aside...
00:21:00...toen it appeared that he had misused his neef.
00:21:07They said that before...
00:21:09...toen it happened.
00:21:17That was in that time...
00:21:23...well...
00:21:24...not so abnormal.
00:21:25I heard that in a few days...
00:21:28...and...
00:21:30...that was...
00:21:31...that was...
00:21:31...that hing niet ver.
00:21:33...and that was...
00:21:33...a bit...
00:21:34...a relatietje.
00:21:36So...
00:21:36...the relatietjes...
00:21:37...that he said...
00:21:38...that was normal in the kring.
00:21:39...and...
00:21:40...and...
00:21:40...yeah...
00:21:41...that zegt alles.
00:21:41How is it today?
00:21:43How is it today?
00:21:43How is it today?
00:21:44How is it today?
00:21:45How is it today?
00:21:45How is it today?
00:21:45How is it today?
00:21:46Have you contact with him?
00:21:47We had contact with him.
00:21:49He travelled?
00:21:50He arrived 500 kilometers further...
00:21:51...to make to Immediately 가� Gelliuwe...
00:21:53...to적인 incident minutes...
00:21:55...heипs ...
00:21:55...he miser...
00:21:57...he miser...
00:21:58...he misericord...
00:22:00...he misericord...
00:22:01...he cam'd helemaal...
00:22:05...he misericник...
00:22:06...he miseric...
00:22:07He doesn't want nothing to do. He's in a very strong and defined environment.
00:22:13He lives in the abdai, he doesn't want to come out, he doesn't want to do anything.
00:22:17They're all around.
00:22:20They're responsible for the leadeners.
00:22:23They're the leadeners.
00:22:25We can see that on a priest.
00:22:27They've discovered that could not happen.
00:22:32The question comes from all the Belgians.
00:22:36It's a signal that, according to Bonny, will come to Rome.
00:22:40For Van Geluwe, it was this week a wake-up call.
00:22:44You can see an old man who knows that his life is broken,
00:22:47that it's in his lament for him.
00:22:50I can also think that if I live with him,
00:22:53that it's not easy decisions.
00:22:56Minister of Justice Paul van Tichelt
00:22:58dringt by the Vatican on Roger van Geluwe
00:23:01his bishop's and priest title.
00:23:03If Rome comes to Rome here, give Rome there first clarity over.
00:23:08Then the visit of Van de Paus
00:23:09may be under a better sternum.
00:23:12How many arms should be thrown around
00:23:14before something happened
00:23:17against the former Monsignor Van Geluwe?
00:23:26The bishop's and priesthood
00:23:27The bishop's and priesthood
00:23:29are in a commission
00:23:29that has the resources
00:23:30of a researcher.
00:23:32The church leaders say
00:23:34that the abuse in the church
00:23:36is too long under the mat
00:23:38Let's not forget that Mark van Geluwe
00:23:41who wrote several letters to the paus
00:23:44that he wanted to talk about.
00:23:47He then got a letter from the nuncius
00:23:51that the paus would think about him in his prayers.
00:23:55That's it.
00:23:57That's it.
00:24:23That's it.
00:24:25That's it.
00:24:27That's it.
00:24:30That's it.
00:24:33That's it.
00:24:35You have to write a letter,
00:24:36he said.
00:24:36we don't have to write a letter from the phone,
00:24:38but a letter from the paus
00:24:43that I wrote a book.
00:24:44I wrote a book that I have written in my heart and the Lord.
00:24:56That's the answer of his holiness.
00:25:01I have my book here, The Brief of the Pauze.
00:25:04I have done a bit more work on my book.
00:25:11What Roger van Geluwe betreft, who used his neef, is still priest and bishop.
00:25:17To take off his titles, it's still waiting for the Pauze, which this year comes to our land.
00:25:22The Pauze Franciscus can possibly bring a peaceful visit to our land,
00:25:27as long as there is no certainty about the fact of Geluwe.
00:25:32The Pauze is asked to come to us.
00:25:34We are going to have coffee, I can land here with his helicopter,
00:25:37I want to pay his train card.
00:25:39But I don't think I have to stop everything now
00:25:45to stand in the range of victims.
00:25:50To say, again, I'm going to go for you.
00:25:54No, no, no.
00:25:57My man is bigger or something.
00:26:00He was scared of me.
00:26:02He has not done.
00:26:29In the church, like in other groups,
00:26:32it was improvised and sought out solutions
00:26:35in place of taking a more and more leading role
00:26:39and showing the right path to life.
00:26:42The Biscoppenconferentie bied herevoor
00:26:46her excuses for this.
00:26:49The question I ask is why
00:26:52the light is always seen as the spot
00:26:56in your eyes.
00:26:59That I don't understand.
00:27:01And that is also what the victims
00:27:04once upon once
00:27:06are so tired and tired.
00:27:10It is word against word
00:27:12and it is power against power.
00:27:15It is not so difficult.
00:27:19It is not so difficult.
00:27:24It is not even possible.
00:27:31It is not possible.
00:27:33It is not possible.
00:27:34It is not possible.
00:27:35It is not possible.
00:28:03It is not possible.
00:28:03It is a bit faster than before.
00:28:05It is not possible.
00:28:11It is not possible.
00:28:30It is possible to be treated
00:28:32properly and rapidly.
00:28:33And you can only speak the truth when you are transparent.
00:28:38When you tell what happened with those wounds in the past.
00:28:43Are there documents made?
00:28:46Where were they actually preserved?
00:28:50Is there a list of names?
00:28:52And so on and so forth.
00:28:55And we know that we will reach that point.
00:28:57And reach that point.
00:28:59The church has no reason to be calm in.
00:29:06But it would be much easier if the church would do it.
00:29:20We know that many priests are placed over to other parochies.
00:29:26Not to the outside, but within the country.
00:29:30Have you ever known about what you have done?
00:29:34As far as I remember, there were no priests who were placed on the basis of sexual abuse.
00:29:43From one parochie to another.
00:29:45As far as I know.
00:29:52And not to the outside.
00:29:53And to the outside?
00:29:55Not completely.
00:29:57I can also say, in my opinion, surely not.
00:30:00Surely not.
00:30:02Surely not.
00:30:03Surely not.
00:30:05What have you done?
00:30:06Everyone knows.
00:30:08And several victims have been reported.
00:30:12I was victim there.
00:30:14And I know that he was displaced there.
00:30:16Well, it's true that it's a conscience.
00:30:19I would say, of the church but also of the society.
00:30:22We have a letter in our archives of a judge who wrote to the church...
00:30:26...to ask for a priest to replace a priest according to the pedophilia.
00:30:31I mean, it shows that at the time...
00:30:34...it was larger than the authorities of the church.
00:30:37But it's very regrettable and condemnable.
00:30:40Today, of course, we can never tolerate that.
00:30:43A place is the easiest.
00:30:46You can also see that with the dossier Delft.
00:30:49That's a beautiful example.
00:30:51I feel it found.
00:30:59Hello.
00:30:59I'm back to looking forward.
00:31:00I'll ask you some questions please.
00:31:11You're a priest.
00:31:12You're a man of God.
00:31:13These children are accusing you of abusing them.
00:31:15You have nothing to say for yourself?
00:31:19No.
00:31:33This is the Vlaamse father Saliziaan in 2014 in the Centraal Afrikaanse Republiek.
00:31:40He is then already arrested for child abuse in a Don Bosco school in Gent.
00:31:44He doesn't have contact with younger people.
00:31:46But on the territory of the Saliziaan in Cagabandoro weemelt it from the most vulnerable children.
00:31:53They were here fleeing because there was a war in a civil war.
00:31:56And the Saliziaan have sent them to the Saliziaan.
00:32:01What has you actually taken to the Saliziaan people who had been guilty of having been sent to Delft to
00:32:08the outside?
00:32:08We have sent them to the Saliziaan people who had been sent to the Saliziaan people who had been sent
00:32:20to the Saliziaan people who had been sent to Delft.
00:32:37and that is the moment when I knew something about it, when Luke Delft was in Africa
00:32:45by CNN contacted me. Then he emailed me and told me, but I also did it on the way,
00:32:55and then I made it on the side of the Salisian, who had the responsibility for him,
00:33:01and I also had Caritas Internationalis, in the context of where he worked in Africa,
00:33:08I had the president of Caritas Internationalis onmiddellijk verwidriged.
00:33:12The people had onmiddellijk also handled and the thing opened up.
00:33:19But the Salisian were already longer on the high level of the facts that were made by the heer Van
00:33:24Delft?
00:33:25That I don't know. The Salisian were on the high level of that the person was previously
00:33:32was convicted.
00:33:35And they had a child in the outside of the house.
00:33:40And there was no one responsible for it?
00:33:43I was not responsible for it.
00:33:45No, but you had maybe someone in the Salisian could have spoken to that?
00:33:49That's what I wanted to say.
00:33:50That's what I wanted to say.
00:33:52When he was replaced from Belgium to the Central African Republic,
00:33:58I was not involved with that.
00:34:00No, but the person who made the decision for him to replace him,
00:34:03was never on the mat in the kerkelijke institute for the decision?
00:34:07Not that I know.
00:34:09And so will happen and so will happen.
00:34:11That's the difference between the responsibility to make the institute
00:34:16as a institution?
00:34:17Yes, but that's what I never heard.
00:34:20That's the difference between the responsibility to make the institute
00:34:23or to be able to be aware of what the story we don't have under the mat.
00:34:27That's the difference.
00:34:29And that's the signal that is not given to the kerkel.
00:34:32I think, as far as I know,
00:34:34have the Salisianen well onmiddellijk maatregelen getroffen
00:34:39in the matter of their responsibility,
00:34:41and also Caritas Internationales.
00:34:43When it came out again?
00:34:44Yes, they did that too.
00:34:45When it came out again and they couldn't change it?
00:34:47Yes.
00:34:48When it came out again and they couldn't change it?
00:34:51Yes, that's true.
00:34:53Yes, that's true.
00:35:07No.
00:35:07No.
00:35:10No.
00:35:11No.
00:35:12No.
00:35:13No.
00:35:14If people were taking responsibility on the test,
00:35:18I was never a threat.
00:35:25I had a difficult home. I came to Don Bosco Voluwe, in the internat.
00:35:37Don Bosco Voluwe, where it began.
00:35:45I was there three months and they took me away from the internat,
00:35:49because I was hard to handle it.
00:35:54Then they took me from the internat to the church,
00:36:00in a cage where there was a bed.
00:36:05What happened is that I was used for almost two years.
00:36:13The victim chose me.
00:36:14The victim chose me, actually.
00:36:17The victim knew how to manipulate people,
00:36:20how to use them, how to give them.
00:36:25First they were simple things.
00:36:27A bit of money, a bit of money.
00:36:33The victim gave me everything I wanted.
00:36:39The victim chose me.
00:36:41The victim chose me.
00:36:42The victim chose me.
00:36:45The victim chose me.
00:36:47The victim chose me.
00:36:54I was going to call the director of the school,
00:36:56because I made my mind, is this normal?
00:37:00Is that normal?
00:37:00Is that possible?
00:37:01I was actually put my head on the facts and said,
00:37:06you don't have to do that.
00:37:08That's our job.
00:37:10We are still doing what we want.
00:37:13And I would like to have to do that.
00:37:20The problem is that when you are a victim,
00:37:25it changes your mind.
00:37:27It changes everything a bit.
00:37:28It changes everything a bit.
00:37:32It changes everything a bit.
00:37:32In the two years I was there,
00:37:36I can't tell myself how many times I was able to use it.
00:37:40But it was a lot.
00:37:44I had a doubt that I didn't hear that.
00:37:46But because I had such a bad house,
00:37:50it was better than being home.
00:37:53to be a person.
00:38:17There were three or four children.
00:38:19There were 14 children at that time.
00:38:21At the end of the day,
00:38:23he was in the hotel
00:38:24with my son.
00:38:27I would take direct steps
00:38:29to give him a person
00:38:31to give him a person.
00:38:42They told me
00:38:43that if we could
00:38:46get into a compromise,
00:38:48I would believe
00:38:49that they will never
00:38:50contact with children.
00:38:52That was for me
00:38:55to believe
00:38:55that I would not
00:38:57take further
00:38:58to take part
00:38:58to take part
00:39:00to take part
00:39:10to take part
00:39:14to take part
00:39:15to take part
00:39:16to take part
00:39:16to take part
00:39:24to take part
00:39:29to take part
00:39:29to take part
00:39:29to take part
00:39:29of that.
00:39:30The name is Luc Delft, which is removed from the internat.
00:39:36We asked ourselves if we should go to justice.
00:39:40And then the consensus of the people who have been given to us was that there is no complaint.
00:39:48The fact that the parents don't ask them, the steps that they have done,
00:39:53have done well.
00:39:58But it remains...
00:40:01Yes, it's good.
00:40:02You have asked the question.
00:40:04I think it's not possible that you have the question.
00:40:08It's juridical answer is that you have a complaint.
00:40:11And that you can stop after everything.
00:40:14But if the question is whether you have a moral duty
00:40:16to someone who works with children,
00:40:19and if you can see that there are still slachtoffers,
00:40:24then the answer is absolutely yes.
00:40:27Absolutely.
00:40:28If you ask the question, I think...
00:40:29We can make it juridical, if that's necessary.
00:40:33But honestly, I think it's a shame that you ask the question.
00:40:37Sorry, I have to go with my heart.
00:40:40Thank you very much.
00:41:01He gave me a camera.
00:41:08He gave me a camera, he was responsible for me in the week,
00:41:12like in the weekend, and they knew that he was a pedophile.
00:41:22They have not protected the young people, but not the young people.
00:41:28I have now very much fear that I believed in them
00:41:31and that I had trust in them, that they didn't contact their children.
00:41:34They didn't have that done, and now I know what the people all spoke out of it,
00:41:41and for years...
00:41:42If they don't communicate these serious facts internally
00:41:48and one of the Salisianians can only do things everywhere,
00:41:53in both within and outside,
00:41:55then you have to say, this is something rotten in this organization.
00:42:01How is it possible that the church has hundreds of thousands of sexual abuse
00:42:08with children assembled?
00:42:10How is it possible that this is so hidden in a secret?
00:42:15We still don't know that.
00:42:18Who are they?
00:42:19The research of large groups of victims would help us greatly help us
00:42:25and would also be able to change our society for victims.
00:42:32But we are nowhere to go.
00:42:38.
00:42:56If I speak about the best priestess, someone who is unenkened from the Bourgogne type,
00:43:02who is Baceland?
00:43:02Who do you think?
00:43:03Oh, Pietje.
00:43:05Pietje.
00:43:05Oh, Pietje, yeah.
00:43:06Pietje was the man, the great animator.
00:43:09He was the man of the cornet, the dance group,
00:43:12but he knew the art of being active with us.
00:43:17And that was for me the basis of the spirit in the class.
00:43:23He was on the basis of a very good mentality.
00:43:25He will be happy to hear that, because he starts with this.
00:43:28Yeah.
00:43:30You can come.
00:43:39We'll see each other again.
00:43:42Unbelievable, that voice.
00:43:46When we see my dader on TV,
00:43:49we can say, look what a lovely, jovial man,
00:43:53as he was also in his parochie, in his population.
00:43:57But actually,
00:43:59the second part of himself was actually a monster.
00:44:05Sweet.
00:44:06Thank you very much.
00:44:08At a certain point, I had to do a white white coat
00:44:12because white was the color of masculinity.
00:44:16And especially masculinity was very important.
00:44:19Thank you very much.
00:44:19But I know what I do most often.
00:44:21In his living was there a small step.
00:44:24I had to stand up there.
00:44:25There were two hooks on the wall,
00:44:27where my communicator was attached to my communicator.
00:44:30And then he started to do the communicator
00:44:33and then he started to move on.
00:44:36And then he started to move on to my life.
00:44:40And then I got to see that.
00:44:42I got to go on top of my head.
00:44:45And then he was going to go on top of the head.
00:44:47And then he put the gold on top of his head.
00:44:49And he brought the gold on top of his head.
00:44:52And then he brought the gold on top of his head.
00:44:58was that he was with me at the end of the day.
00:45:05By the victim, you are constantly given to me.
00:45:08Look, that can't be said to anyone,
00:45:11so I tried to hold myself as long as possible.
00:45:18But at some point, you are physically weak,
00:45:21so that you also begin to suffer.
00:45:24Even when you feel like I don't want to be anymore.
00:45:27I don't want to do that anymore.
00:45:43I've told my story about the devil.
00:45:49Bishop Van Geluwe said to us
00:45:51that he said, look, I'm very serious.
00:45:54I'm going to struggle with this situation.
00:45:56I'm going to solve this situation.
00:46:00But hold this room,
00:46:03don't go outside.
00:46:07Because it would hurt us,
00:46:11but it would hurt us as a person.
00:46:14That's what he said.
00:46:19What did Roger Van Geluwe do?
00:46:21What did Roger Van Geluwe do?
00:46:22At that moment, with my dader,
00:46:24he was completely closed.
00:46:27Why?
00:46:27Because he opened his door.
00:46:28And he opened his door.
00:46:30That was a bit of a relationship.
00:46:34At that moment, when everything came out of the news,
00:46:37I was very ill.
00:46:42I know that my mother also had sick.
00:46:45My father tried to survive it so far.
00:46:47I was able to survive it.
00:46:50And also,
00:46:50the rest of my family's lives
00:46:53had a great loss
00:46:54and had a great impact
00:46:56in my life.
00:47:01God bless you
00:47:02and God bless you
00:47:03that you always,
00:47:04with confidence,
00:47:05sincerity
00:47:06and responsibility
00:47:07to do your job.
00:47:10Absolutely.
00:47:11Absolutely.
00:47:14In 2001,
00:47:16my father died.
00:47:18My father died.
00:47:20My father pries my father
00:47:21to be a very good person.
00:47:24He becomes a reward.
00:47:27If you have done good things
00:47:29for someone,
00:47:30you can get a reward.
00:47:32But someone who has lost
00:47:35a reward,
00:47:36has a reward,
00:47:38I'm going to give you a reward.
00:47:40I found it very good.
00:47:42I found it very good.
00:47:44I found it
00:47:44so deep in your shoes
00:47:46that you can get there
00:47:47from it.
00:47:48I have to get back.
00:47:54It can't be that a victim
00:47:56that a victim in 2010
00:47:57is already known
00:47:58in a prison
00:48:00that he has a prison
00:48:01where he's still
00:48:02from the capital.
00:48:03And then you read
00:48:04a victim
00:48:05from a victim
00:48:06a message on Facebook.
00:48:07He says, children, each other,
00:48:12as I have loved you.
00:48:19How is it possible that someone who was known in 2010
00:48:26as a victim,
00:48:29has the space to put a message on Facebook?
00:48:34What has the institution left there?
00:48:39It's especially sad that my dad could be around.
00:48:44But I don't believe that I would have done that.
00:48:48A man who has 99 effects on his feet,
00:48:52which is effectively what happened,
00:48:56to torture, violence, intimidation,
00:49:01and he still knew it until today,
00:49:06then he was helpless,
00:49:08and extremely frustrated.
00:49:10Are you frustrated?
00:49:12I think that my dad has nothing guilty.
00:49:15Nothing.
00:49:19Nothing was true.
00:49:23And we needed all of our guidance,
00:49:26because we were mentally sick.
00:49:28And, yeah,
00:49:31we were not in order.
00:49:33We were not in order.
00:49:39We were not in order.
00:49:44We were not in order.
00:49:51We were not in order to do it.
00:49:53We were not in order to do it.
00:49:57We were not in order to believe it.
00:49:58What should we do with these hackers?
00:50:00Even if the facts have been so long ago.
00:50:03There is a spectrum where it should be thought again.
00:50:09Because too many people have the feeling that we have spoken out.
00:50:15We have received knowledge.
00:50:18But in fact, there is no reason for the facts.
00:50:24When a victim is satisfied, I am satisfied...
00:50:27...when I know that my father doesn't live as a king anymore.
00:50:34And that he truly feels what he has set up.
00:50:38That's what has to happen.
00:50:48The church should be exemplary.
00:50:53So here, we have to take the lessons of this past...
00:51:01...and to respond to the future.
00:51:03And also to be much more vigilant.
00:51:05It doesn't only concern the acts of pedophilia...
00:51:09...but other acts of transgression...
00:51:15...in the adult and others.
00:51:17And that's why we need more and more...
00:51:23...to practice a policy...
00:51:25...of refuse to abuse.
00:51:27Knowing that sexual abuse is also abuse of power.
00:51:31I ask myself...
00:51:33...how the church...
00:51:34...the great moral compass of the society...
00:51:37...of so many hundreds of years...
00:51:40...slaat...
00:51:41...to not have their own responsibility...
00:51:43...to take responsibility as a young man.
00:51:46That's not to be solved.
00:51:49There is a request for forgiveness...
00:51:51...before there is a violation.
00:51:53And that's why the right to be approved.
00:51:53That's why the apology will be taken out.
00:51:54That's why we are just going to take over.
00:51:57That we are capable of...
00:51:58...in the hope...
00:51:59...that misbruck...
00:52:01...seksueel misbruck...
00:52:05...machtsmisbruck...
00:52:05will be spoken, and not only be punished, but also be punished.
00:52:13When will you finally go to action and see what this misuse has brought to myself, my family
00:52:20and those who are responsible for it, to the right?
00:52:26It's strange that many victims say that the most people in their community didn't have heard of what it was
00:52:33going on.
00:52:34While we of course look at these people and say, see that body, talk about it.
00:52:44That in the moment of silence, we all feel how deep that pain is.
00:52:57This is the language where the most victims are the strongest.
00:53:01Because there could not be spoken about it.
00:53:04So they have a body that carries it.
00:53:09That body has almost all problems with health.
00:53:14Almost everyone is there also a mental loss.
00:53:18There is influence on their ability to find work and go to work.
00:53:23So the whole impact of what they have done with them,
00:53:28shows themselves in their lives.
00:53:34We could say that the facts are especially many if we remont to 50 or 60 years old.
00:53:40It's normal that the church was specially implemented in Belgium.
00:53:46And so there was, at the time, and I think it's a structural cause,
00:53:54a lack of attention and recognition of the affective or sexual dimension
00:53:59of the life of priests or religious.
00:54:04And this is also a point, today, where we are much more attentive.
00:54:10And we also have to say things like they are called a cat, a cat.
00:54:13There was this expression that we used a lot in the church,
00:54:16a sin against the sixth commandment.
00:54:18And we put there a lot of information about the affective relations,
00:54:22sexuality, including the pédophilies.
00:54:27But we did not go further.
00:54:29And so, for me, this is one of the structural causes.
00:54:48Today we are in our research committee,
00:54:50after six months of very intense work,
00:54:53against the clock,
00:54:54the report for our employees.
00:54:56It was a fight against the time,
00:54:58but after half a year, the research committee
00:55:00on sexual violence in the church,
00:55:02with a long range of recommendations.
00:55:05137, to be precise,
00:55:06number one,
00:55:08a commissary for sexual grensoverschreitend
00:55:10drug on young men and young men.
00:55:13A central point.
00:55:15She also works in the expertise center,
00:55:17where she can do research,
00:55:19where she can do research,
00:55:20and there is a commissary for sexual violence,
00:55:22which is indeed,
00:55:23all the ledges,
00:55:24because there is not much snipping,
00:55:25we have a lot of coordination.
00:55:41The VRT-Canvas documentaire God Vergeten
00:55:44and also,
00:55:45that there is no need for
00:55:46recognition in year-old dossiers,
00:55:48that can't be done with the juridics.
00:55:50Some of them have already had a
00:55:51schadevergoeding,
00:55:52but that can sometimes be higher.
00:55:54We have realized that
00:55:55that is a symbolical
00:55:56schadevergoeding
00:55:57that they have received.
00:55:58We are ready to go
00:55:59again to an arbitrage
00:56:00for the year-old
00:56:01business,
00:56:02but where the people
00:56:03who have already received
00:56:04a better
00:56:05than a better
00:56:06than a better
00:56:06than a better
00:56:09therapy,
00:56:10for example,
00:56:40that this will be
00:56:40If we put that at zero, then people with serious sexual abuse have a level of minus two.
00:56:50And that comes with a taxing that lies between the 200.000 and the 600.000 euros.
00:57:00Invaliditeitserkenning.
00:57:01That is the scientific basis for people to know a taxing.
00:57:07The day that I hear, or read, or see, that they do it financially, and they let them blood on
00:57:17the lies.
00:57:18They let them blood on what they have set up in the society.
00:57:23Then you can have peace with them.
00:57:26And that minister should still be awake.
00:57:33And that is the moment that I looked forward to.
00:57:3715 survivors of sexual abuse have seen the pause and seen the pause.
00:57:45And one of the 15, you know, Jan Puipen, is welcome.
00:57:49Welkom.
00:57:50Welke boodschap heb je nu zelf kunnen overbrengen?
00:57:52De boodschap die ik al zo lang zeg, in geen woorden, maar daden.
00:57:56Het is genoeg geweest met excuses.
00:57:58Nee, nu moet er echt een actie ondernomen worden.
00:58:01U bent de leider van de kerk.
00:58:03U bent de baas.
00:58:04Hier in België zeggen ze altijd, het is Rome, het is Rome.
00:58:08Dus nu spreek ik face to face tot u.
00:58:11Hoe gaat u dat oplossen?
00:58:13Kijk, het bezoek van de paus was voor mij alleen maar ontgoocheling.
00:58:17Ik zou verwachten dat als je de verantwoordelijke bent van de organisatie,
00:58:21dat je je de eer toe eigen om te zeggen, ik ben verantwoordelijk.
00:58:32Lors de l'entretien of pas, je lui ai dit, exactement ça, François,
00:58:36est-ce que tu n'es pas responsable, d'une certaine façon,
00:58:40tu n'es pas responsable de ce qui s'est passé.
00:58:46Réponse du pape.
00:58:47Le pape n'est pas l'église.
00:58:50Les évêques et les cardinaux ne sont pas l'église.
00:58:53L'église c'est toi, toi, toi, toi, toi, toi,
00:58:55en désignant les 15 personnes qui sont autour de lui.
00:58:58Donc je lui dis, l'église c'est 1,3 milliard de personnes dans le monde.
00:59:02Oui c'est ça.
00:59:08Mais s'il n'est pas l'église, pourquoi il fait tout le tralala
00:59:11comme ça quand il vient faire une messe au stade,
00:59:14la Roi Baudouin, etc., avec des flonflons et tout.
00:59:19C'est d'une hypocrisie monstrueuse.
00:59:22C'est scandaleux de parler comme ça.
00:59:26Bien sûr que c'est pas toi qui a commis les crimes.
00:59:30Bien sûr que c'est pas Turlinden qui a commis les crimes.
00:59:33Mais il n'empêche, c'est lui le chef quand même.
00:59:34Voilà.
00:59:36Donc il doit prendre ses responsabilités.
00:59:40C'est pas l'église, c'est pas l'église, c'est pas l'église.
01:00:04C'est pas l'église, c'est pas l'église.
01:00:05C'est pas l'église, c'est pas l'église.
01:00:33C'est pas l'église, c'est pas l'église.
01:00:37C'est pas l'église, c'est pas l'église.
01:00:39Et non te posto per l'abuso.
01:00:42Non te posto per la copertura de l'abuso.
01:00:47Quedo a tutti.
01:00:50Non comprire l'abuso.
01:00:52Quedo a Ivescovi.
01:00:54Non comprire l'abuso.
01:00:56C'est que c'est que si, c'est pas l'église.
01:01:08C'est pas l'église.
01:01:11The pause has listened to 15 people. There are still a few hundred thousand people waiting for him.
01:01:48PAUS FRANCISCUS
01:02:03PAUS FRANCISCUS is overleden op zijn 88e.
01:02:07PAUS FRANCISCUS
01:02:18De nieuwe PAUS, Leo XIV, nodigt slachtoffers van seksueel misbruik in de Belgische kerk uit in Rome.
01:03:04PAUS FRANCISCUS
01:03:21Het doek valt over Operatie KELK.
01:03:2415 jaar duurde het onderzoek naar misbruik binnen de Belgische katholieke kerk.
01:03:30Maar het ziet er naar uit dat er nooit nog een proces van komt.
01:03:34Dat betekent dat slachtoffers van het historische misbruik geen rechten hebben in dit land.
01:03:43Operatie KELK startte 15 jaar geleden met huiszoekingen in het aartsbischoppelijk paleis in Mechelen en ook bij kardinaal Daniels.
01:03:51Het gerecht was op zoek naar bewijzen van misbruik binnen de kerk en ook naar het verdoezelen ervan.
01:03:56Een jarenlange juridische strijd mondt nu op niets uit.
01:04:03Alles is verjaard.
01:04:05Ik heb er bij het begin nog niet neergelegd.
01:04:09Maar toch hoop je toch dat er meer komt.
01:04:13Ik stel bij mapje 61 in Operatie KELK.
01:04:17Zo noemt dat dan of klinkt dat.
01:04:20Ik had gedacht dat me dat emotioneel niet veel meer ging doen toen de eindconclusie was.
01:04:25Maar die dag heb ik dat toch enorm geraakt.
01:04:28Ik ben in Parijs.
01:04:29Ik heb meer confiance.
01:04:31Niet in de kerk, niet in mijn juiste.
01:04:35De vordering van het federale parket is integraal gevolgd door de raadkamer.
01:04:40Dat lijkt mij een juridisch juiste en zeer evenwichtige beslissing die goed gemotiveerd is.
01:04:53Beschamend voor justitie.
01:04:55Ik heb daar geen andere woorden voor.
01:05:10We hebben mensenlevens verroest.
01:05:12Zelfmoorden zijn er geweest.
01:05:13Families uit elkaar gerukt.
01:05:15En die dan met vertrouwen naar justitie gingen.
01:05:20En die daar nog een keer bedrogen worden.
01:05:22Er is niemand die het oplost.
01:05:25Het is een schande gewoon.
01:05:27Een schande.
01:05:28Dat er geen recht is gesproken, dat is voor mij wel duidelijk.
01:05:35Na de inbeslagname van de dozen documenten in het aardsbisdom in Mechelen startte de
01:05:40kerk een jarenlange procedureslag om die documenten terug te krijgen.
01:05:44De Hoograad voor de Justitie sluit niet uit dat er druk is geweest van de kerk op het onderzoek.
01:05:50Onze conclusie daar is dat er geen formeel bewijs is, maar dat we wel indicaties hebben vastgesteld.
01:05:58Ik bedoel dat het een magoeie is.
01:06:01Het is een goeie.
01:06:04Het is een goeie.
01:06:09Het is de gemachten die je aan het vijgen zit die groter zijn en sterker zijn dan jezelf.
01:06:17Transparant zijn, dat is alles op tafel leggen.
01:06:20En dat is iets wat ze niet doen, in tegendeel.
01:06:24We zeggen dat er 1500 vijgen is nu in 2025.
01:06:28Maar waar zijn 1500 vijgen?
01:06:31En waar zijn die condamnationen?
01:06:34Aan de Mgr Léonard, die in mijn dossier was gegeven,
01:06:38geen vijf was gegeven,
01:06:40geen vijf was gegeven,
01:06:42geen vijf was gegeven voor de kerk op te hebben.
01:06:46En de Mgr Van Gelu, die in mijn vijf was gegeven,
01:06:49geen vijf was gegeven.
01:06:53En dat is niet normaal.
01:07:05De Jevrouw en Jevrouw en Jevrouw en Jevrouw en Jevrouw en Jevrouw en Jevrouw en De revolution Is Erre.
01:07:18We didn't want to hide things, we didn't want to influence
01:07:22one way or another, but the work of justice was done.
01:07:52How can you describe your faith
01:07:55what comes all over the water with the church?
01:08:00Where is the real mea culpa, that real guilt?
01:08:04If you really want to follow the example of Jesus,
01:08:09you have to go down to those who suffer
01:08:14and accept, to help them, to suffer with them,
01:08:19and therefore to be responsible.
01:08:21But they don't take their responsibility.
01:08:24They don't have the conscience of the evil they do.
01:08:29They don't care.
01:08:30For them, the pedophilia is always a sin.
01:08:33And a sin, it confesses, it pardones,
01:08:35with 3 Je vous salue Marie.
01:08:38As I know, it's not just one life.
01:08:42That's the first thing.
01:08:44And that there are women, children, families,
01:08:48that that is much bigger than that.
01:08:51Or only that death.
01:08:54That's a foul word, that death.
01:08:56But at the end it was that.
01:08:58It was a death as a death.
01:09:05I always feel like the church leaders
01:09:08just want to turn the pages on their pages
01:09:10and forget their past.
01:09:13And what I would like to say is
01:09:14to live with the letters of the story
01:09:17that they have caused.
01:09:18We have to do that.
01:09:20My brother died.
01:09:22Yes.
01:09:24My life has stopped.
01:09:25Yes.
01:09:28I've had the states life long.
01:09:31And for that life long
01:09:32there's always no solution.
01:09:34It's been nine years
01:09:35that I've followed,
01:09:36but every week.
01:09:37Nine years, every week.
01:09:39I've been already 30 years
01:09:40in therapy.
01:09:45I understand that they think
01:09:46that blood may be turned around.
01:09:49Or,
01:09:50now it's been good,
01:09:51but that blood won't be turned around.
01:09:53We can't turn around.
01:09:55That's the church that works there.
01:09:59That blood is intact.
01:10:03It always starts.
01:10:05It's been 10 years,
01:10:06it's been 12 years,
01:10:06it's been 13 years.
01:10:08Yes, okay.
01:10:09And now we start again
01:10:10and again,
01:10:11we ask ourselves
01:10:12what are your needs?
01:10:14What is necessary for you?
01:10:16So,
01:10:17I don't know what to think.
01:10:20We ask ourselves
01:10:22what we do
01:10:24with the money.
01:10:26I don't know what to think.
01:10:33I don't know what to think.
01:10:42I don't know what to think.
01:10:45but I'm nothing with it.
01:10:59I've always said that I don't want money,
01:11:02because that's a bad money for me.
01:11:06But when I look at other victims who are really in need of money,
01:11:10they're on the ground, they're on drugs,
01:11:13sometimes on drugs,
01:11:13maybe,
01:11:14they don't even know how they're on the ground.
01:11:17How in God's name should these people come through the day?
01:11:36Before I think about it,
01:11:41I think it's a bad thing.
01:11:42It's a bad thing.
01:11:46It's a bad thing.
01:11:48It's a bad thing.
01:11:51It's a bad thing.
01:11:52It's a bad thing.
01:12:18especially when we put the arbitration in place
01:12:21following the parliamentary commission of 2010-2011,
01:12:25that we could turn the page with it?
01:12:27Well, no.
01:12:29Our answer today is our new plan of action,
01:12:34by saying that our desire
01:12:38is certainly not to turn the page,
01:12:41but to move forward.
01:12:50.
01:12:50.
01:12:50.
01:12:50.
01:12:50.
01:17:04Heb je na deze aflevering vragen over geweld of nood aan een gesprek?
01:17:08Neem dan contact op met de hulplijn via 1712.
01:17:12Voor meer informatie en de openingsuren kan je terecht op de website www.1712.be.
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