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00:00Tim Spector, Professor of Genetic Epidemiology, author and gut health geek. Welcome to Well Enough.
00:06Great to be here.
00:07Well, we want to get into some really geeky stuff here, if that is okay with you, and I know
00:10this is your forte.
00:11We're going to talk first and foremost about fermentation.
00:14For anyone that doesn't really know what this is, could you give us a little introduction on what ferments are
00:19and what fermentation means?
00:21Sure. Fermentation, it's not that geeky. You're doing a disservice.
00:25Okay.
00:26Fermentation is the transformation of food by microbes into something better.
00:33And by better, I mean something that tastes or smells better, something that has improved health benefits, and also it
00:46changes its structure and texture.
00:48This example is, you know, you take basic grapes and you make them into incredible vintage wine.
00:56You take just a bit of cow's milk, you make it into an incredible cheese.
01:02These are all examples and, you know, and really humans have been fermenting really forever.
01:11However, it's really in our DNA.
01:14And it's really good for our gut health, right, in certain circumstances.
01:17So how can it affect us positively?
01:20So the health benefits have been known, passed on for ages, but the science has only recently caught up on
01:29why it's healthy.
01:30So we used to think it was just these live microbes.
01:34So in most ferments, or many ferments, you've got, you're basically creating these live microbial cultures, which you're then eating.
01:42And those microbes were thought to inhabit your gut.
01:46And by then they'd sort of take over and produce good stuff.
01:51We now know that's highly unlikely and that they'd be outnumbered by all the other guys there.
01:57So it's a bit like, let's put three people into a football stadium and, you know, they'll make a loud
02:04noise and you'll hear them, right?
02:05You won't.
02:06So what we think is happening is these microbes, as they're going down into your body, are stimulating your immune
02:13system.
02:14They're tickling it all the way down and through some unique properties they have.
02:19And that means your immune system is doing all the work and reducing things like inflammation.
02:26And that leads to all kinds of health benefits from your heart to your gut to your brain.
02:33Amazing.
02:34And you're the co-founder of a company called Zoe.
02:36And Zoe does a lot of research, but you did one study that showed that three portions of fermented foods
02:41a day can have a significant impact on health.
02:45Why three?
02:45There have been lots of small studies in volunteers where, you know, they give 25 volunteers five or six portions
02:56a day and they follow them with blood tests every day.
02:58But it's quite hard to do those studies and it doesn't necessarily mirror real life.
03:03So we took 9,000 volunteers who were Zoe members who hadn't really been into ferments and said, do you
03:11want to do this?
03:12And we came up with something we thought would be practical, but also likely to produce a result.
03:17So it wasn't going for the five or six, but it also was more than the average person in the
03:22UK, which is about, you know, one every two days.
03:26Yeah, I can't imagine people are eating three portions a day on average.
03:29So we asked people to make a change and see if we could notice the difference.
03:32And so that's what we did, this big citizen science project.
03:37And roughly 6,000 managed to do it.
03:413,000 dropped out, as is usual.
03:44And of those 6,000, over half noticed improvements to their mood, their energy and their hunger within a few
03:51days.
03:53And that, as well as rejection in bloating and heartburn.
03:58And so that's how we know that it has these broad benefits on the population, as well as the sort
04:06of detailed studies that were done in small numbers of people that show that you can actually reduce by about
04:13a quarter your levels of blood inflammation by taking five of these a day.
04:18So whether you take three or five, it's taking them regularly that seems to matter.
04:24And that via your immune system, probably, it's affecting all these other organs in your body.
04:31Crucially, I think, though, in helping your brain and your energy levels and your mood.
04:36And I think that's, you know, really what's driving me to tell people, you know, British people out there who
04:44are really not into ferments, you're missing something.
04:47It's so easy.
04:48This can really improve your life so easily.
04:51Yeah.
04:51I mean, it sounds incredible when you put it like that.
04:53And I wonder, I mean, you were someone that studied genetics for a long time.
04:57But I heard on the Desert Island Discs podcast that you said your one luxury on a desert island would
05:02be a fermentation kit.
05:03How did you go from being someone that studied genetics and twins to being this into gut health?
05:10Well, a genetic kit wouldn't be much use on a desert island, let's face it.
05:14So I think I gradually realized that, although scientifically really exciting, the genetic revolution wasn't going to deliver practical benefits
05:26for the average person in my lifetime.
05:30Yes, it's delivering on extremely rare diseases.
05:34Yes, it's sort of helping some targets for pharmaceutical companies.
05:38But it really wasn't doing what it was promised to do 25 years ago.
05:44And so as I was getting slightly more disillusioned with the practical side of it, the microbiome came along, which
05:51I noticed at a genetics meeting in about 2009, that seemed to offer more than genetics.
05:59Because even in identical twins, the gut microbes were different.
06:05And that could, for me, suddenly explain why identical twins, which I'd been studying for 20-odd years, end up
06:15with different diseases.
06:16So they have the same genes, the same environment, but their microbes are sort of translating that environment into something
06:23different.
06:24And that really has ramifications for all of us that, you know, whether we're going to live to ripe old
06:31age, get a chronic disease or not, may very well depend on the inhabitants of our gut.
06:37And unlike genetics, we've got the power to change that.
06:41Do you think, I mean, given that we can change that, do you think our modern lifestyles are maybe interfering
06:47a bit too much with our gut microbiome?
06:49I mean, we live in quite sanitized times.
06:51We're kind of obsessed with killing germs.
06:53And, you know, our diets have changed too.
06:55There's a lot of ultra-processed food in our diets.
06:57Do you think maybe we're eradicating a lot of the good bacteria?
07:00And maybe that's having a negative result as well.
07:02Definitely.
07:03I think we're dealing with the fact we overreacted to our discovery of microbes and antibiotics and the fact that
07:12we did such a good job in pretty much eradicating infectious diseases.
07:17And we thought, that's it.
07:20We've solved everything.
07:21We've just got to keep everything sterile and we'll never get ill.
07:25And it turns out that we overcorrected and that our overuse of antibiotics, you know, the average kid in America
07:34has 18 courses before they're 20.
07:37I think it's not far off that in the UK.
07:40Gosh.
07:41You know, the average three-year-old kid has had one or two courses of antibiotics routinely given at childbirth,
07:47routinely given for operations for very low benefit.
07:51And we thought there was no downside.
07:53So definitely, we overuse antibiotics.
07:56We overuse sprays, you know, disinfectants, and we got very good at it during COVID.
08:0299.9% of germs, everyone knows that.
08:06And we're not giving our kids the chance to engage with microbes in the earth or with pets or plants
08:15and nature.
08:18And that's meant that we've halved the number of species that, you know, we currently have in healthy people, compared
08:25to healthy people, you know, a couple hundred years ago.
08:30That's fascinating.
08:30So I wonder if we can maybe then talk about how to repopulate our guts in a healthy way.
08:36You've talked about the 4Ks before and these, you know, these incredible products that you can make at home or
08:41you can buy in the shops.
08:42And they're things like kefir, kombucha, sauerkraut, and kimchi.
08:48And these are all ferments, right?
08:51And I wonder, because there's a lot of wellness washing, which is something that I discuss a lot going on.
08:57And I wonder how much of this stuff is really good for us, how much of it is misleading marketing.
09:02There's a lot of stuff on the shelves in the supermarkets that says gut-friendly.
09:06How many of these things are genuine ferments that can, you know, have a positive impact on our gut?
09:12How many of these things are possibly marketed in a way that's misleading?
09:16How much of it is dead food?
09:18How much of it actually contains active live bacteria?
09:21Do you have a view on that?
09:23I do.
09:24And it's complicated.
09:27I mean, the first thing to say is if you see a packet in a supermarket that says gut-friendly,
09:31beware, because all you need to do in the UK at the moment to get that label is to add
09:36a bit of calcium to your product.
09:39Because of some research in the 1980s, probably sponsored by the food industry,
09:44that says, you know, there's a link between adding calcium and gut health, which is absolute rubbish.
09:51But that's the law.
09:52And so you can have all the science in the world.
09:55But if you haven't added calcium, you can't make that claim.
09:57So it all works the other way.
10:00Any old rubbish, add calcium, gut health claim.
10:02The other point is that, yes, you've got a whole range of potentially fermented foods.
10:09There's prebiotic foods, which are the fertilizers for microbes.
10:13They sometimes get lumped into this.
10:16And they're high in fiber.
10:18Any variety of fibers that your microbes can feed off.
10:22And that improves your gut health.
10:25Then you've got probiotics that you would get either in capsules or in live foods like yogurts.
10:33And then you've got something else called postbiotics, which I think we'll come to.
10:38But most of the ones, the fermented foods, are in this probiotic category.
10:45And we used to think that only the live ones mattered.
10:49Everything else was a complete con.
10:51And it may have been because the manufacturers probably didn't know the real science.
10:56They were just saying, oh, well, it sounds good.
10:58So you have some sauerkraut that's been made in vinegar, in chemical vinegar, rather than fermented.
11:06And has a shelf life of three years.
11:09There's nothing live about it.
11:11So is that pickled versus fermented?
11:13Correct.
11:13Yeah.
11:14The terms are not used precisely.
11:17So there is a bit of overlap.
11:19But I would refer to pickling as pickled in a vinegar rather than in a salty brine.
11:27A salty brine is that you can induce microbes to go in.
11:32But it's a bit complicated because you can have mild vinegars that have microbes in them.
11:37People talk about pickles being really good for you.
11:39Apple cider vinegar.
11:40Yes.
11:40Yeah.
11:40So it's, but generally most pickles are made with like commercial vinegars, which are basically acetic acid, which you just
11:50add chemically.
11:51So there's nothing really natural about that.
11:54Right.
11:54So you've got these dead and alive ones.
11:57And in general, the ones that are in the cold shelf are trying to keep the microbes calm.
12:05Don't want them overpopulating because then they'll produce gases.
12:09They'll explode.
12:11They'll, you know, get smelly, this sort of stuff.
12:14And then the other stuff, which you can get some Chinese kimchis or some sauerkrauts.
12:20They can last for years.
12:22And you often now see tins of kombucha in the, doesn't have to be in the cold shelf.
12:28And so these two, these terriers, live and dead, have been around for a while.
12:34And I used to think everything dead was a waste of time.
12:37Up to three years ago, I was saying that on podcasts, et cetera.
12:42Now it's less clear.
12:44There's definitely some benefit of eating dead microbes.
12:46These post-biotics, there's some new science showing that because the microbes are still there, they're just not moving or
12:55replicating.
12:56The cell walls are actually working to stimulate the immune cells.
13:01They're working a bit like vaccines.
13:03We know that when you have a vaccine, it works by tickling your immune cells.
13:07And we think the same thing is happening with dead microbes from probiotics.
13:12It's still being recognized and it still triggers a calming of the immune system.
13:18So there's lots of good science now showing that you can kill these probiotics and they still have a beneficial
13:26effect.
13:27I still believe it's best to have the live ones because then you're getting the live and the dead together.
13:31As they feed, they often, they die as well and they're still in that product.
13:35So you're eating a mix of corpses and real live ones as well.
13:41Sounds delicious.
13:42It is delicious.
13:43But that's, you know, that's life.
13:45They have, they don't only live for a few hours.
13:48Yeah.
13:48Well, I wanted to ask you about kefir as well because it's something that I have gotten really into.
13:52I love it.
13:53I drink it every day.
13:54But there are many different types that I have sampled.
13:56And one of them is just off the shelf in the supermarket and it's silky and sweet and very non
14:02-offensive.
14:03I've tried others that are, you know, fizzy, organic glass bottles.
14:08It all separates.
14:09I took the top off one once and like you say, it exploded in my face.
14:12So very alive and very different to the one that, as you say, seems quite shelf stable.
14:19Is one better than the other in that instance?
14:21And are we kind of being duped by companies there or are they much the same product?
14:26Well, they're probably made in different ways.
14:30So, again, you can call kefir, kefir, regardless of whether it's made from the grains.
14:39So grains have been passed down for multiple generations and they are little communities of these microbes
14:46that have built their own shell and their own little nest.
14:50And you get them on the internet or you get them from other real kefir.
14:54No one quite knows who started the first one off.
14:59And those ones have often about 20 or so different, 20 or 30 different species you can culture.
15:07And for the book, I did do some research looking at this.
15:10And then you've got ones made by, say, big dairies where they will add to milk kefir cultures,
15:19which you just buy these microbials and seeds, essentially, and you put them in.
15:28So you say, OK, I'm just adding these 12 kefir cultures that will be known to come from kefir.
15:34So they're slightly cheating, but it's still real.
15:39So it's a sort of halfway house.
15:41And these ones are more easy to control.
15:44They're more stable.
15:46They can distribute it around the whole country.
15:48Whereas the other ones, if anyone has made kefir knows, you know, each batch is slightly different.
15:55And you've got yeast in there, which produce gas.
15:59So if you've ever seen open one and it's frothed up, generally, you know, that's real.
16:05But it also means that as well as the microbes, you've probably got some yeast in there that are producing
16:11CO2 and gas.
16:12You're not getting the same product, but you're still getting something that's healthier
16:16and probably has more microbes in it than, say, yogurt, which has three or four.
16:21So it's a question of degree.
16:23And I don't think we should be too fussy.
16:25If it's something you like and you're going to have regularly, that's more important than, you know,
16:31finding some rare one that you have once a month.
16:35And the things to avoid are things like the artificial sweeteners, the fake fruits,
16:41the stuff they put into the children's products.
16:44Interesting.
16:45And I wonder, you mentioned how quickly it took for a ferment to affect you.
16:51Say someone starts drinking kefir and they never have before.
16:54How quickly are they going to notice the effects of consuming a ferment?
16:57You know, what's the process?
16:59Say that they decide to start doing it every day for a month.
17:01At what point will they see a difference in their health, do you think?
17:04We don't know if you just have one ferment, but say you were having...
17:09That portion of three a day.
17:11Yeah, and you were maybe having some cheese as well and you were having something else.
17:17Then our studies show that within a week, you'd see improvements in your mood, your energy.
17:22That quickly.
17:23And a reduction in your hunger levels.
17:24That's what people are reporting.
17:26And a lot of people are worried about, oh, you know, I've had these products and I get bloating.
17:31But we found that actually reduction in bloating was twice as common as bloating being worse.
17:38But some people are a bit sensitive and some people are actually intolerant of histamine,
17:44which you can get in some of these products.
17:47So I always say go slowly.
17:49You know, in our study, we didn't go slowly.
17:51We just said go for it because we only had a short time period.
17:55But in general, build these things up slowly.
17:58Get your body used to microbes feasting on this.
18:02You know, just like in the bottle, producing a bit of extra gas.
18:05Takes a while for the body to adapt, doesn't it?
18:07It does.
18:07Like, you know, especially if you've had a sort of ferment-free, sterile diet.
18:14It will take a while.
18:15But I think the important thing is to look out for those benefits, which, you know, from all the people
18:21that have written to me saying, you know, it's changed my life.
18:24If you tell them about the likely benefits, they're more likely to continue because doctors are terrible at telling people
18:32about mood and energy and hunger.
18:34But if you tell people to look out for that improvement, then that's very motivating.
18:41Absolutely.
18:42And it's interesting that you say that because several people have messaged me and said, should I take a probiotic?
18:49And I have to say to them, I'm not a doctor, so I can't, you know, can't give you that
18:53advice.
18:53But you can read all of this stuff I've written about probiotics.
18:56And then the question is, do I take a probiotic supplement or do I try to get my probiotics, prebiotics,
19:04postbiotics from whole foods?
19:06Would you say that one is better than the other?
19:08What would your advice be?
19:10My advice would be that at the moment, the current list of probiotics are rather limited.
19:17The ones that have been approved were really being discovered about 30 or 50 years ago.
19:25And you can't put too many of them together because they often fight with each other and can neutralize each
19:32other's effects.
19:34So what you're getting is just a few strains of these bugs, which will have some effect on average in
19:43a population.
19:43But they may well not agree with you because we've all got very different gut microbes.
19:52You know, we only share, you and I, perhaps 20, 25 percent of our microbes at best and less in
19:58terms of strains.
20:00So the chance of it working is actually smaller than if you took a range of probiotic foods, because you'd
20:08be getting a much wider range of potentially beneficial microbes in there.
20:13And probably having more fun too, right?
20:14You get to eat delicious food rather than take a capsule.
20:17And it's cheaper.
20:18Yeah.
20:19I think we might see a future where probiotics are personalized or they've got some of these new discoveries that
20:27we're making.
20:27But at the moment, they're very old and, you know, you're much better off rather than having a probiotic made
20:36from a lactobacillus from a yogurt, actually having the yogurt.
20:39You also mentioned cheese a couple of times.
20:41And I saw a video on your Instagram where you were talking about cheese as a, you know, a great
20:46option for gut health and that some are effectively fermented health foods.
20:51Which cheeses should we be reaching for to help our gut health?
20:54Well, pretty much any cheese doesn't come from America or it doesn't come out of a tube and it doesn't
21:02last forever.
21:03You know, those Kraft slices have, I couldn't detect any microbial species on those.
21:10And I've got one on my shelf that I've had for five years.
21:13It's still bright orange and hasn't changed.
21:16And it's immune to any sort of decomposition, which is a bit of a worry.
21:21Food that would survive the apocalypse, not the one.
21:23The stuff you get on frozen pizzas is probably not helpful at all.
21:26That's often analog cheese.
21:28So it's fake cheese.
21:29Right.
21:30Even a basic cheddar or another common brand, Philadelphia cream cheese, actually has live microbes in it.
21:39Oh, wow.
21:40So most of the cheeses people we used to will be of some benefit.
21:44Not the baby ones, not the laughing cows, the baby bells, again, that last forever.
21:50Yeah.
21:50But if you get something that looks like a real cheese, it probably is.
21:54So you don't have to spend a fortune on the sort of cheeses that I like.
22:00But if you are going to go, what's the very best cheese to get?
22:04Unpasteurized, if you can get them, that's raw milk cheese, often with a rind that they have a mould on
22:12the outside.
22:13The ones with blue cheeses have little lines of fungal mould inside.
22:19That would be what I think of immediately if I think about microbes in cheese.
22:22That's where my brain would go.
22:23Yeah, and it was fascinating for me when I first got into this field 50 years ago.
22:28Someone said, oh, do you know how they make blue cheese?
22:31And I just hadn't thought a bit.
22:32Why is it blue?
22:33Well, it's interesting.
22:35They make a hole in the cheese so you can get oxygen in there.
22:41And then they inject these moulds in there like aspergillus and penicillin and these things.
22:48And then they react with the oxygen.
22:51They can live in these holes and they produce these incredible flavours.
22:55Humans have been making cheese for a long time.
22:57So we're pretty good at it.
22:59And some of these cheeses, you know, have enormous amounts of different microbes in them.
23:03But they're all pretty good.
23:05I mean, that's the basic lesson from the most basic one upwards, as long as you avoid the really bad
23:10ones.
23:11It's good to know.
23:12I wanted to ask you about kombucha as well because that's something I really enjoy drinking.
23:16But I don't know whether I should be making it by myself at home and, you know, being really purist
23:21about it or whether the ones I take off the shelf are any good.
23:24But it can be quite expensive as well.
23:26So I wanted to know what you think about kombucha and whether or not the sorts of ones you can
23:30get for kind of two pounds in the supermarket are worth it.
23:33Because I've seen a criticism of them from some nutritionists that says a lot of them are full of sugar,
23:38which actually counteracts the effect.
23:40Yes.
23:41So they're a mixed bag.
23:43The one in the Natura box is one of my favourite brands, Momo.
23:48Me too.
23:49And they're reassuringly expensive.
23:52So it's reassuring the price.
23:54Okay.
23:54So if you've got the money, then you pay a bit more.
23:58But, you know, you might be paying, you know, four pounds for a bottle, which is quite a lot.
24:01But if you hold it up, you'll generally see a sediment in the bottom, which is a sign that you
24:07can make a mother from that.
24:09And that's always a good sign that this is traditional kombuchas.
24:15Then you've got these other ones which can be highly flavoured and may last longer, longer shelf lives.
24:22And usually they've done something to them to change that process.
24:27They're made from like a vinegar concentrate where they've used up all the sugar.
24:34And so the microbes are just sort of in a state of suspension.
24:39And then they, rather than sugaring it at the end, which would excite the microbes and make the can explode,
24:45they add artificial sweeteners like stevia.
24:48So you might have to pay the price of having stevia in order to have your kombucha.
24:53Then other ones, they use microfiltration, which takes out the actual microbes and allows that juice to be there,
25:03which is the juice from it doesn't contain the actual bodies of the microbes.
25:07So we don't really know how they, I mean, they are real kombuchas,
25:13but we don't totally know the health benefits of them.
25:17So there's a whole range of different tricks that people are using.
25:22Because it is very hard to go from artisanal production to scaling up nationally.
25:28So none of them are doing this deliberately.
25:30They're just trying to say, how can I have a decent shelf life to make any money on this?
25:35Because the margins are small.
25:36So my advice is that, you know, if you've got a brand that you like, you know, get it and
25:42you can afford it.
25:44But it's always worth trying to make your own because you can then tailor it to your own taste.
25:50And yeah, it's virtually free because all you're just paying for is making a big pot of tea with some
25:57sugar in it.
25:58And you borrow a mother from somewhere or you get it from one of these bottles and you can grow
26:04your own and do it that way.
26:05Kombucha making is still in its infancy.
26:08And so I think there's lots of new technology happening.
26:11People are realizing this is a huge market.
26:14So I think we'll see other clever ways of getting a cheaper drink out there to more people.
26:21I like that you can be quite sneaky though and take a quality product from the supermarket and then make
26:25your own at home.
26:26I think that's a good hack.
26:27Well, and it's also, yeah, but it's also a test that that's a good product.
26:31And so, you know, I think those people should be proud that they're helping other people do it.
26:35I don't think they'll mind.
26:36I wonder what your day looks like as well.
26:38I mean, do you eat three portions of ferments a day or more?
26:42What does your kind of breakfast, lunch, dinner look like as a gut health specialist?
26:45Well, it varies, of course, because my days are very varied depending on where I'm traveling and whatever.
26:51But usually my go-to breakfast would be a mixture of Greek yogurt and milk kefir.
26:58For some reason, I just like to mix them up.
27:01I find Greek yogurt a bit too thick.
27:03I find kefir a bit too thin.
27:05So put them together and I can have that as a breakfast.
27:09That's usually got my two out of the way.
27:12And then at lunch, if I'm at home, I might have, you know, at the moment I've been making some
27:20mushroom, fermented mushroom pate.
27:23Oh, that sounds nice.
27:24Which is really good.
27:26And I've just put some pickles or cornichon on that.
27:30And then the evening, generally after my meal, I'd have some cheese with either kraut or kimchi.
27:40So, yeah, so when I'm at home, I can sort of guarantee to get three to five ferments.
27:46When I'm traveling, it's a bit more difficult.
27:50So I'll have little hacks to try and get me around or, you know, try and find a place where
27:57I can get some kefir.
28:00Interesting, if you take a little bit of kefir with you, you can add milk to it.
28:04And the next day, if it's a good quality one, you will be able to back slopping.
28:09It's a rather unpleasant word.
28:11Nice.
28:12You can back slop it to get it ready.
28:14So if you know you're going to be somewhere for a week, but there isn't, you know, much in the
28:18way of local shops around, you can, but you can get milk.
28:21That's really clever.
28:22That's another way you can do it.
28:23So, yeah, there are ways, but, or you travel with your smelly kimchi in your bag, but that's always a
28:30risk.
28:30Yeah.
28:31I always travel with these little puerh tea bags.
28:34It's like fermented tea.
28:36And I don't know whether or not, you know, it's legit, but that's what I always take with me to
28:41have after a meal because I always find it helps settle my stomach.
28:44But, you know, if I can't find kombucha, I can take a tea bag.
28:47Yes.
28:48Well, I haven't tested those ones.
28:50I don't know how.
28:51You probably have to have a lot of them too.
28:52Yeah.
28:53I'll send you a link.
28:53You can let me know.
28:55But, yeah, I think, you know, people need to be more innovative, but also realize that if you just, you
29:03know, add more soy to your food, even dead products like soybeans, soy sauce, miso paste,
29:13these can all give you extra ferments, and you don't have to worry about it being live.
29:19You know, I've often switched from using cream or double cream to using creme fraiche, which is slightly fermented cream,
29:27or kefir.
29:29Yeah.
29:29It's fascinating to find out from you how different things that we might not have considered to be fermented because
29:35they're not in the typical 4Ks category where they're a bit funky and they're a bit obvious are actually really
29:40beneficial because they're slightly fermented.
29:43I've learned a lot here.
29:44Marmite, Tabasco.
29:45Wow.
29:45Okay.
29:46Guinness claims that, you know, the dregs of a Guinness.
29:49Is that legit?
29:50Well, Guinness claims it is, so you have to put your own mind up on that one.
29:54That's an interesting one.
29:54I wonder actually about alcohol because, not to veer off topic too much, but a lot of experts say that
30:01can kill off microbes in the gut.
30:03So for Guinness to claim that actually it could be beneficial is quite an interesting one.
30:07I'd probably say it probably mitigates the alcohol a bit, is probably the way to say.
30:13And it's a bit like, you know, there is evidence that red wine does have a beneficial effect on gut
30:18microbes.
30:19So clearly the polyphenols in the skin of the red wine are doing more benefit than the harm that the
30:27alcohol is also doing.
30:29Because there's no doubt that drinking spirits and most alcohol is bad for your gut and your gut lining.
30:36So it's, again, it's a question of degree.
30:39But, you know, if someone invents the perfect, you know, high polyphenol, low alcohol wine, you know, it'll be a
30:45fantastic health drink.
30:47Yeah, for sure.
30:47Look at that for fermented grape juice on your shelves soon.
30:50I also think one of the biggest perceived barriers to wellness is cost.
30:55So when we were talking about all these products and you were saying, you know, if you can afford to
30:58get this kombucha, then do.
31:01That's great.
31:01But I also wonder, with food prices rising, I'm not sure everyone listening to this will think, oh, yeah, well,
31:09I'll just run out and buy all of these different things and then that'll be me sorted.
31:13Is there one particular type of ferment or one particular type of way in that you would say is, you
31:19know, gold star, do that first before you do anything else?
31:22If you feel that you can't afford to buy all these different foods?
31:24I think many ferments are actually a way of avoiding household waste.
31:32So many of us have probably had moments when you look in the bottom drawer of our fridge and you
31:38see half a cabbage.
31:39OK.
31:40And you've used it for some recipe.
31:42You've got the rest.
31:42Oh, how long am I going to keep this before I throw it out?
31:46Just chop that up.
31:48Weigh it.
31:49Add 2% salt.
31:50Stick it in a jar.
31:51You've got a ferment.
31:52That's great.
31:53You've got sauerkraut.
31:54You know, that would be my starting tip that improve your health and save money and, you know, help the
32:01planet and save waste.
32:03So lots of things like that that you're able to do with vegetables that you wouldn't otherwise use.
32:12And that's what our ancestors did every sort of autumn with all the excess produce, which now we just throw
32:21out.
32:21You know, we need to start relearning how to, you just add salt to it and the microbes do the
32:29rest.
32:29You know, they're already there.
32:31In that shelf in your fridge, the microbes are in the leaf of the cabbage just waiting for you to
32:36make the conditions right.
32:37Warm them up a bit, give them a bit of salt and away they go.
32:41And a week later, you've got amazing sauerkraut.
32:44That's great advice.
32:45And you did kind of answer the question earlier as well by talking about, you know, the cheese doesn't have
32:50to be inexpensive.
32:51You can make kombucha at home.
32:54You know, you can backslop the kefir.
32:56I think these are all really good pieces of advice because I do think a lot of people think, well,
32:59I can't be well because I can't afford to be.
33:02And, you know, there are ways to make yourself feel better and to improve your gut health.
33:06It doesn't have to be, you know, the most expensive product at the fanciest shop at all.
33:10No, you just got to be sensible about it.
33:12And, you know, it's always worth trying some of these things just once and then saying, do I like it
33:19enough?
33:20Which of these do I prefer?
33:21Can I make it myself?
33:22Am I prepared to buy it?
33:25Make your choice.
33:26But I think as you go down this fermented route and you start to feel better, you say, well, you
33:32know, what price a better mood and energy?
33:35You know, we still don't value real food enough in this country.
33:41We spend the least on food of any, you know, European economy.
33:46So proportionally.
33:49So I think it's important that, you know, once you start relating and see I'm feeling better, then, you know,
33:55you're less concerned about it.
33:57But as I said, if you've got the time, you can do all of these things yourself.
34:02And over the years, I've learned to do them all.
34:06It doesn't mean I do them all the time because you have to be in the same place for a
34:11bit to burp them and feed them and do other stuff.
34:15But sometimes you just can't, you know, somebody making it yourself is just better.
34:20You know, there's nothing quite like a homemade beetroot kraut, for example.
34:24And also, you know, what's in it.
34:25I think, you know, all the additives that you talk about being potentially harmful to the gut, they're going to
34:30be absent if you're doing it yourself, right?
34:32You know exactly what's going into it.
34:34Absolutely.
34:34You mentioned mood, and that's a big talking point and something I've written about and I really want to get
34:40into with you.
34:41The gut-brain axis is a huge talking point.
34:43And I believe, as you mentioned earlier, that if more people knew that the way they eat can directly impact
34:50their mood and how they feel,
34:51they would think twice about what they're putting in their bodies in terms of the food that they eat.
34:56Can you tell me a bit more about the gut-brain axis and what that term means?
34:59Yeah, the term is still evolving as the science is changing.
35:06But essentially, we've known intuitively, you know, that we have butterflies in our stomach, our stomach is in knots, all
35:19these expressions that we have.
35:21But there's a link between the two.
35:23And we've all been felt that way before exams.
35:26And, you know, what's going on in my gut just because I've got an exam later.
35:30So we know there's this link.
35:32And now we know that most of the nerve cells, for example, the second brain of ours is in the
35:41gut.
35:42So our main brain is here.
35:44The second brain is definitely in our gut.
35:46And the two communicate very closely through the vagus nerve, which is this huge nerve that runs from our intestines
35:53to our brain.
35:54And that's probably the main superhighway that communicate between the two.
36:01And they also communicate between the immune cells.
36:04So you have immune cells in the gut, where most of our immune cells are.
36:09They get the signals from the microbes and translate that into chemical signals and send off other signals to the
36:17immune cells in the brain, which have newly discovered.
36:20We didn't think there were immune cells in the brain, but now we understand much more about it.
36:26And we know that the blood-brain barrier doesn't really exist in the – it's not like the iron wall
36:33it was.
36:34It's very permeable.
36:37Right.
36:37So that signals can get quite easily through the immune system into the brain.
36:42These immune cells then trigger things like inflammation in the brain.
36:46And that leads to anxiety, depression, low mood, and even psychosis and migraines and other problems.
36:56So we know that's crucial.
36:59So really the two main things, the nervous system and the immune system, the two are communicating all the time.
37:05And lots of experiments on animals showing that you can take an anxious mouse, take its sample from its gut,
37:16transplant it into a normal mouse, and you make that other mouse anxious.
37:20Wow.
37:20So this is because the microbes are producing chemicals that are actually signaling to the brain of the other mouse
37:28that they should be unwell and should be reacting in a different behavioral way.
37:33So once you start realizing that, wow, you know, our gut really can tell our brain exactly how to behave.
37:42And so we're changing our views on who's in charge.
37:46We've always said the brain is in charge of everything.
37:48Not true.
37:50And, you know, Descartes really got it wrong.
37:53We just need to think of the brain as just another organ that's responding to our bodies.
37:57And sometimes it gets it wrong.
37:59And the modern way of living is misleading it.
38:04Yeah.
38:05That's so interesting.
38:06I was just pondering on it's not I think therefore I am.
38:09It's I ferment therefore I am.
38:11So there you go.
38:12I think it's very interesting that we are looking now at interventions for mental health via the NHS as well,
38:19whereby, you know, our doctors in the future might be telling us, you need to change your diet.
38:25And I'm going to recommend you do that before I put you on any kind of mental health medication.
38:30Do you envision a future where that might be happening?
38:32I'd love to.
38:32But we need to move the National Health Service a long way before that happens.
38:37Yeah.
38:38But that's what everyone should be doing.
38:40And I think what I want to do is spend the tell the message to people.
38:44Don't rely on your doctor to do that.
38:47Do this yourself.
38:49You know, there's plenty of books out there on how to improve your diet, improve your health.
38:54Rather than just going and looking for a quick fix prescription from an overpressed GP who's only got seven minutes,
39:04you know, look at your diet first.
39:06We've been filming this documentary for Channel 4 about four families with terrible diets.
39:11All of them had mental health issues.
39:15And all of them, when we improved their diets, improved them, you know, within a week or two.
39:21And they didn't realize there was any link between the two.
39:24They just thought, I'll just eat.
39:27Continue eating the ready meals, the chicken nuggets, you know, the pot noodles, whatever it is.
39:34It's just all about calories and nothing else matters.
39:37So once you tell people, listen, you know, just for a month, change your diet.
39:43See the dramatic effect it can have on your mental health.
39:46Yeah.
39:47I think people will do it.
39:48I think we can change the medical profession from the ground up rather than top down.
39:53It's a real kind of preventative approach, isn't it?
39:55And I know that if someone had said to me when I was probably not taking very good care of
39:59myself in my teens and early 20s,
40:01listen, how anxious you feel is directly related to how badly you're eating.
40:05I would have paid attention.
40:07But I didn't know that then.
40:08It's good that I know it now.
40:10Yeah.
40:10But still not enough people know it.
40:12So still people are staying in that cycle of, you know, comfort eating, which is doing the exact opposite.
40:21It's just making them worse, you know, making their gut microbes worse.
40:26They're producing worse chemicals, inflaming the brain, immune systems.
40:31Then the brain is doing what it thinks it should be doing, which is like preparing you for some terrible
40:37infection or like you've got the flu or something.
40:39So you don't want to meet people, you don't want to go out, don't want to talk, just stay under
40:43the duvet and, you know.
40:45You're just caught in a cycle, aren't you?
40:47And I think especially at this time of year when it's maybe a bit darker, a bit colder, you've got
40:51less sunlight.
40:52It's a perfect storm for just feeling awful, isn't it?
40:55Yeah.
40:56Yeah, no, I mean, I used to have quite a lot, you know, cyclical moods.
41:02And I found since changing my diet, getting my gut on course, it's so much more stable now.
41:11I don't have that period.
41:12So I can't understand why I'm feeling so miserable, you know.
41:15And many people in this country, we have the worst diet in Europe, you know, and we have an epidemic
41:22of one in four or one in five people with mental health issues.
41:27It's the most obvious thing we should be changing.
41:30But unfortunately, in this country, we've lost our leading position in, you know, preventive medicine.
41:35So I think, you know, it needs a program like this to spread the word.
41:40Yeah, absolutely.
41:40And, you know, the whole ethos of this podcast is helping people to just be well enough to do that
41:46little thing that isn't perfect, but is enough to help them feel that little bit better.
41:51I wanted to close by asking you your one tip.
41:54What would the one thing that you would do for, you know, for just feeling baseline well enough be?
41:59And it doesn't necessarily have to be gut health related, but I'm sure it might be.
42:03It would be the overall idea that if you want to feel well, you've got to look after your gut
42:10microbes.
42:12And probably the best, if you had, I've got lots of tips.
42:16I'm sure you've got loads.
42:17Nail me down to one, I'd say get diversity of plants into your diet.
42:22It doesn't matter what else you eat.
42:23But if you can get something around the 30 plants a week into your diet, then you'll be doing really
42:30well.
42:30That covers most bases because then you get enough fiber, you get enough diversity.
42:36And we know from our Zoe studies where we tested this with a daily 30 prebiotic, we can increase the
42:43microbes within a few weeks.
42:45And I think people noticed the differences.
42:48That's great.
42:49I mean, it's promising.
42:50A few weeks, it's not going to be years and years that people are going to have to hammer away
42:54at this.
42:54But it's consistency, right?
42:56It's not that it's hard.
42:56You know, you've got to remember a plant isn't just kale.
42:59It's a nut, it's a seed, it's a herb, it's a spice.
43:03It's introducing more interesting things onto your plate.
43:06It's filling that plate with different things, which is fun and tasty.
43:10Absolutely.
43:10We don't have to eat in this kind of homogenous sort of health guru way, do we?
43:14It doesn't have to all be beige either.
43:17Absolutely.
43:17Well, I've learned so much in this episode, and I'm sure everyone else has too.
43:21And I'm so grateful to you for joining me for this episode of Well Enough.
43:24My pleasure.
43:25If you enjoyed this episode with Professor Tim Spector, I know you will love this episode with Deliciously Ella,
43:31all about how to add more healthy whole foods to your diet.
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