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In this episode of The Patient Pod, host George Kramb sits down with Quin Butler, a strategic biopharma leader with deep expertise in oncology and specialty therapies. Together, they explore the importance of patient education, prescription literacy, and healthcare system navigation—from understanding treatment options to avoiding risky medication switches. A must-listen for healthcare professionals and advocates of informed, equitable care.
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00:00Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of The Patient Pod. I'm George Cram, your host,
00:09and today we have somebody special. We have Quinn Butler. She is a pharmaceutical executive. She
00:15spent the last, probably 15 years, if not more, in the pharmaceutical space. She's currently on
00:20her own right now. She runs a company called Catalyst Access, helping small and mid-sized
00:24companies. And we're really excited to have this conversation today because I think there's
00:29several aspects of her career that a lot of you could learn from. So Quinn, great to meet you.
00:34Thanks for having me. Thanks for being on Pod. Awesome, George. Thank you for that awesome
00:38introduction. And thanks for having me. Happy to be here. Yeah. So let's go back to the beginning.
00:44What I loved about your background was when you first started, you were like in finance. Yeah,
00:50that's exactly right. Walk us through that. Yeah. So it's a bit of a journey. I will have to go all
00:57the way back to probably early childhood to sort of explain my career journey and trajectory and how
01:02I came to make the decisions that I made. So when I was growing up, my mother worked in a hospital.
01:07So I had a sense that I would always do something within healthcare. But I would say there were two
01:12really defining moments that solidified what that career trajectory would look like in healthcare.
01:17The first moment being when she was diagnosed with breast cancer. So this was during a time where
01:22there weren't a lot of maintenance therapies available. I got to experience firsthand what
01:26that treatment journey was like, the emotional burden that comes with that for not only my mother,
01:31but all of us that were around her. Thankfully, she survived. She's been in remission since she had
01:36an awesome medical team. And yeah, it was amazing. And so getting to see that firsthand, I was like,
01:41okay, definitely know I want to be in healthcare. However, I was very risk averse. So I was also a first
01:46generation college graduate. So I said, medical school probably won't be for me. That's, as you know,
01:51it's a long and arduous process to become a medical doctor. So I said, let's take it one step at a time.
01:55And let's just go on the business side of healthcare. And when I was young, I initially
02:00thought maybe healthcare investment banking, because that sounded really cool. You get to learn
02:04about the business. I did want to do something where I would work with numbers and solve complex
02:09problems. And I also thought it was appealing to potentially live in New York City. And so healthcare
02:15investment banking was kind of where I wanted to go. And even though I did a small stint in
02:20investment banking, it wasn't healthcare investment banking, that role really allowed me to break into
02:25the business in a way that I couldn't even have foreseen. So there was a recruiter that actually
02:30reached out to me who worked at GSK at the time, and they had a role open on their finance team.
02:35And from there, once I made the pivot, the doors were wide open. And the more I learned,
02:40the more I got to shape my career within the industry with intent, and also with just following my gut
02:46around where are the areas that are most complex with the most problems that I can solve, and also
02:51with the opportunities to help me not only develop my skills, but where I can see I can make an impact.
02:57Yeah. So, okay. So you're at Investment Fund. GSK reached out to you out of the, you know,
03:03maybe out of the blue. I don't know. But yeah. And then you're like, hey, all right, I'm gonna go try
03:08this pharmaceutical world out. So you started in finance, in the finance department.
03:13Yeah.
03:13And then you kind of walk me through, like, how did you get, you know, finance to like,
03:17you know, market access and start?
03:19Exactly. Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah. So the first role that I did, that role at GSK was an
03:26interesting one, because it was one where they wanted someone that had more of that banking background,
03:31because I was going to do financial analytics to support divestitures of brands that were more
03:36mature, and also around launching authorized generics. But there was also a component of it
03:42where I would manage the resource allocation budget or the operating expenses for their market
03:47access team. Ah, yes.
03:49That's the connector. So collaborating with the market access teams, I got to learn firsthand what
03:54the work was that they did, meaning that not only managing the costs around the projects,
03:59but I would ask questions about the projects. Like, what is this project? What is it doing?
04:03How does it fit in the grand scheme of the business and the company and our external partners?
04:07And the more I learned about market access, the more I said, wow, this is a space that's extremely
04:12complex, which means there is no shortage of problem solving, but also an ability to really
04:19affect change here. But then also, like, everything you do in access does and can directly impact
04:24how a patient can navigate the healthcare system and how they get access to our medicines.
04:29And so for me, just being closer to that impact felt very appealing. And so I said, okay, I
04:34definitely want to pivot into the commercial side of market access, so out of finance. And I just
04:39managed to find roles that really aligned with my skills and allowed me to do that in a very
04:45intentional way, in a way where I was able to both do something where it was very analytical,
04:50critical, but also one in which I'm working closely with market access teams, I'm collaborating,
04:55and I'm helping to solve some issues that, you know, there's, like I mentioned, there's no shortage
05:00of.
05:01It's funny, though. It's like, so when I, you know, correct me if I'm wrong here, but it sounds
05:05like, you know, when you, when you initially start on the finance side, a lot of it's like
05:08spreadsheets and understanding and all that stuff. Yeah. But when you get into, you know, the patient
05:14aspect, it's almost like there's a behavioral thing that, yes, he can't solve.
05:19Exactly. Yeah. You're 100% right. Yeah. And so like,
05:23yeah, tell me, tell me more. Yeah. So to your point with, when I was in finance,
05:27it was so funny. It was all about, you know, does this side equal this side? Do the dots match? Do
05:32they connect? Like it, the lots of spreadsheets, but when you go into market access, it's not only
05:37strategic, but we call it working in the gray and dealing with a lot of ambiguity to your point,
05:43because of that behavioral aspect, there's a lot of scenario planning, a lot of what ifs,
05:47a lot of, we don't fully understand how this could shape out, but we're building strategies today
05:52that ultimately we won't see the effect or outcome of until many years later. And that kind of was
05:59appealing to me as well, because dealing in an area like that, it really teaches you not only how to
06:04think strategically, but how to really consider all of the components, meaning all of the people
06:11who are involved, all the different factors that involve and think in ways that are different and
06:16unique. And I feel like that's where some of the best ideas come from when you're sort of in those
06:20spaces where you're forced to deal with answering a question that no one has a concrete solution to,
06:27but you can work together to find what the best solution is.
06:30Yeah. Now I want to talk about, so you're at GSK for how long again?
06:37I was there about three years, three years. Yep.
06:39Yeah. And then you moved over to AZ and that's where you spent, you know, five, six years. Well,
06:44first off, I want to, what made you go from GSK to AZ? Was there a reason? Was there an opportunity?
06:51Somebody reached out to you again? How did that work?
06:54Yeah.
06:55And then, and then why?
06:57Yeah. So that was how I made my pivot out of finance into the commercial side of access.
07:01So the GSK career was still mostly spent on the finance side of things, but I, like I mentioned,
07:06I knew I wanted to go into market access and AstraZeneca presented me with an opportunity to
07:11do that. And not only was it appealing because it allowed me to sort of break into the commercial
07:16side, but what was appealing was that this was when AstraZeneca was really ramping up their oncology
07:21pipeline and I was going to work directly with oncology products. So that was very appealing to
07:26me as well. Ironically enough, right after I left GSK, I think they acquired Tesoro and that's when
07:32they started to branch into ecology. However, the experience that I got working with AstraZeneca,
07:36specific pipeline, I would never trade it because it was such a small team at the time,
07:41at least on the contracting side for oncology, that there was so much opportunity to really
07:45innovate and cross collaborate and come up with some really cool ideas that I think I wouldn't
07:51have been able to do with a team that was more established, right? And so the team was very open
07:57to taking risk at the time because they were smaller and we got to have a lot of fun with that.
08:02We got to do some core, unique ideas that actually benefited the company for many,
08:07many years, probably still is benefiting the company today. And I don't think I would have
08:11gotten to do that anywhere else, especially even if I stayed at GSK.
08:15Yeah. Okay. I want to double click on this. So you had a little bit more freedom and you had to do
08:20things that might be considered more risky.
08:22Was there a project in particular that you can think of that like, maybe you stuck your neck
08:27out for, or maybe you're like, I have a lot of conviction on this. It's going outside the norm.
08:33And, but you wanted to do it. Do you have any projects like that, that you can think of?
08:37That's a good question. I have a few projects. There were some that were interesting. So,
08:44and I want to phrase this without sort of putting out there any like providing information, right?
08:52Exactly. Yeah.
08:53So there were some interesting strategies where, I don't know if you're familiar with,
08:58like within market access, there's negotiation cycles. When you think of like the large PBMs,
09:03there's a commercial cycle and of course the Medicare cycle. And so there's always a question of
09:09if you don't come to the negotiation table with an offer of value, is that going to ultimately have
09:17an impact on access to your medicines via the formularies that the PBMs or health insurers
09:22might put in place, right? And so at the time, there was a lot of questions of what that could
09:27look like for oncology. And it's because these are life-saving medicines. And so access really should
09:33not be restricted. And for the most part, it's not, right? I do want to make that clear. However,
09:38there's always an emotional component when you're dealing with senior leaders of they don't want
09:43even the perception of any access barriers out there. And so a lot of the times the projects
09:48I've had to sort of stick my neck out for were the projects where we would say no. And I would say for
09:54the first three years, it worked really well. We would say no, and we would save the business money.
09:58The access barriers were minimal, if any at all. And if there were some, a lot of times you can resolve
10:03them at the provider level, which I think was the better way to do it because you want providers to
10:08have the choice of what care works best for their patient based on what they know. But however, over
10:14time, as policies change, you know, since I first started, things look very different. There's like
10:19the IRA in place now. There's a lot of other policies, MFN, that are impacting the business.
10:24And so now there's less emotional tolerance for potential access barriers because there's so many
10:31unknowns. And so the ability to say no has started to erode, unfortunately. But I would say some of
10:36the best projects were telling senior leaders and guiding them on saying no and earning their trust
10:41and saying no and it being really a good outcome for the business. That's tough. You know, going to
10:48a VP level person and saying, hey, it's very tough. I don't think this is a smart idea. Right. Yeah.
10:54And it only works when you have the support of your direct leadership as well. Right. So I've had
10:58really great bosses who were aligned and, you know, they will have my back. I will have theirs.
11:04And we were sort of one group saying, this is our expertise. This is our expert opinion.
11:09We say, let's let's say no. Let's see how it plays out. And most of the time it worked.
11:14So there's one thing that I want to kind of get your your stance on, which is. Yes. So our viewers is
11:22like predominantly a lot of people in the industry, but there's also a fair amount of people not in the
11:26industry. Yes. And I feel like not enough patients and people even who work in pharma understand
11:34access, understand what's like, what's what resources are available for patients, especially
11:40if they're on a brand in medicine. Why don't you go walk us through that a little bit? Yeah, I'm so
11:44glad you asked that question. So I would say that I feel like and I don't think this is how it should
11:49be, but this is the way it is in American health care system. We as individuals do have to do a lot of
11:54research and do have to feel more empowered to take ownership of our health care, our treatment
11:59journey and just learning more about the health care system. So one resource that I think is great
12:05is the Patient Advocate Foundation. So you can just go to patientadvocatefoundation.org and they have a
12:10wealth of information. They have an education resource library that can talk you through things like how
12:15to navigate prior authorizations. And you might be like, oh, what is a prior authorization? Well, that's a
12:19great place to start to learn what that is and what it looks like and how it can affect affect you as an
12:24individual. They'll have resources on how to navigate medical costs and potentially what you can do to
12:29drive them down, if anything. Another thing I would say, too, is I think people should feel more empowered
12:34to, if they're given a prescription, don't be afraid to sort of take a time or take a moment to read it a
12:42little bit about it and specifically the adverse effects. Now, don't go and try to be like your own medical
12:48diagnosis and don't take that information and pop it into AI, like chat GPT or quad and get
12:54misinformation, but learn and read and try to understand it enough so that you can have a
12:58conversation with your health care provider so you can make an informed decision. And I say that because
13:04like if you think of an example, like let's say you go to the doctor and you're prescribed with high
13:09blood pressure. They diagnose you with high blood pressure and they say, okay, well, we're going to
13:13prescribe you an ACE inhibitor and they give you benesaprol and you go to the pharmacy to pick up
13:18your drug and they say, well, there's another ACE inhibitor that's very similar in nature, common
13:23side effects, but it's cheaper. Would you like to switch? And if you say yes, and you don't think
13:28about what that switch can mean, there could really be high impacts associated with that. Meaning, for
13:35example, if you are a person of Black or African descent and they switch you to lisinoprol,
13:40that particular drug has extremely adverse effects and reactions for people of Black or
13:47African descent. And so for you, you might be thinking, well, I'm saving money because at the
13:52counter I'm paying less, but you might end up paying more in medical costs because now you have
13:56to go to the hospital to get treated for these adverse reactions.
13:59That and just quality of life, like everything.
14:01Quality of life. Yeah. All of that is impacted. And so, but you won't know that unless you know a little
14:06bit more about the drugs that are out there or why your doctor might've prescribed you one ACE
14:12inhibitor versus another to begin with. And so if you can know a little bit more and you can have
14:16those conversations and be more empowered to really take part, an active part in your treatment journey
14:22in your care. Yeah. Super insightful. So, okay. Now I want to, I want to kind of go back. Tell me more
14:28about what you're doing now. You joined us entrepreneurs and you started your own gig. Tell us more.
14:33Yeah. Yeah. So right now it's really a hustle and grind of trying to interact with different
14:38clients and putting a lot of publications out there. So people can learn more about not just
14:42access, but how thinking about access strategies early on could really optimize commercial success
14:48because even believe it or not, George, even within the industry, there are a lot of people
14:52who don't quite understand access and they approach it or think of it as more tactical. And I think we need
14:58to drive the narrative of them now looking at access as something that needs to be considered
15:02as early as when they're making investment decisions for a molecule, because that can greatly
15:06impact how you meet forecasts. That can greatly impact a lot of different things. And so I'm
15:12trying to partner with companies now to help build those strategies, help them think about
15:16how you incorporate access in early on. And especially for small and mid-sized biotech companies
15:21where I think they have less room for error, right? They want to have success. They might have
15:25one molecule. And so success, it means a great deal for them. So I'm trying to partner with
15:30them so that they can think about what that success looks like. And yeah, it's been a grind,
15:34but it's fun because I get to take all the experience that I learned over the years, all of my expertise
15:39and work alongside really small groups of individuals who are very bright. They have a ton of knowledge.
15:48And I'm also learning a lot along the way because I get to work with different molecules and different
15:52therapeutic areas that I haven't worked with before. So it's been fun.
15:56Yeah. So what's your sweet spot? Are you trying to find
15:59like small biotechs that are pre-market? Is that really kind of the idea?
16:04Exactly. Yep. Or even if they're close to market, which I hope this isn't the case,
16:08but if they're close to launch and they still haven't built out those access strategies,
16:13I'll help with that as well. But for the most part, it's a lot of small biotech companies that are
16:17like phase one, phase two.
16:20Okay.
16:20Or even before they get to that phase one, that will be great as well.
16:23Well, for those who are listening, if you need help, you know who to call.
16:26Yes, exactly. Absolutely.
16:28Now, okay. My favorite part about my podcast, it's the hot take. So for those listeners who
16:34first time, hot take is what is something that you're seeing in the industry or within your
16:40segment of the industry and that maybe other people aren't seeing? Or what is a contrarian
16:47view that you have that others might disagree with?
16:50Yes. So I would say my hot take or contrarian view is that I would love for people, and people
16:59are seeing this, but I don't think they're fully understanding it. I would love for people to look
17:04at healthcare specific policies with the blinders off. Meaning don't go looking at it from the
17:10stance of any political affiliation. Look at it from the stance of I, as a patient, how will this
17:16benefit me? Because I don't think enough people are doing that. And because of that, there's a lot
17:21of information that's getting lost. And because of that, there's a lot of policies that are being
17:27proposed out there that may or may not benefit patients. And in order to understand those policies,
17:33that goes back to my earlier stance of you really have to do research to really understand the
17:37business. They understand how the insurance companies work, understand the role manufacturers
17:42play, also understand the roles that the government plays too, and what their capabilities are and what
17:48their limits are. And having that information can help us think about when we're selecting or when
17:55we're giving our voice to those who are in Congress, those who are in House of Representatives,
17:59the Senate, et cetera. If they have policies that ultimately benefit the patient, we can have more of a
18:05voice in that. But I think right now people are too politically divided to even think about it from
18:11the lens of how can we approach policy with the blinders off and ultimately do it in a way that
18:16benefits all Americans and all patients. I just don't think we're there yet. It's so funny. I feel like
18:22that perspective can be applied in so many different aspects of what outside of House of Representatives.
18:26Like put down your Republican, Democrat, you know, you know, uh, flag and just like, look at what's at hand.
18:35Is this going to be good for humankind? Is this going to be good? Yes. Right. Exactly. Yep.
18:39All right. I'm on board. Nice. Cool. Well, um, well, Quinn, this has been a really great conversation.
18:49And what I want to do though, is, um, you know, if somebody wants to reach out to you,
18:54what's the best way for them to get in contact with you? Yeah, there's a few ways. You can,
18:58of course, find me on LinkedIn at Quinn Butler, send a request to connect and a quick note. You can
19:03say, Oh, I saw your podcast with George Cram and just wanted to connect with you. I'd be happy to accept
19:08that. I can also be reached via email at my business email at QuinnCBLC at gmail.com. You can also go to my
19:16website, callusaccess.net and contact me there. If you just reach out to the contact list page,
19:21you can reach out that way as well. Cool. And I'll make sure to add those into the show notes as
19:26well. Perfect. Well, Quinn, this has been a great conversation. I learned a lot. I feel like people
19:31out there did too. Um, and I just want to say thank you for taking time to, to join and share
19:35and sharing your story. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a great to have this
19:39conversation and I'm always happy to share any insights I can and also learn. So I'll be definitely
19:44checking out your podcast for, for future guests and seeing what I can learn from their conversations
19:48as well. Awesome. Well, that's a wrap here today. Um, so for viewers out there, um, tune in next week,
19:56we're going to have another episode and it's going to be just as good as this one. Maybe not as good,
20:00but close, but anyways, uh, Quinn, thank you again for your time and we'll see you all next week.
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