00:00It's just a few days before the 2026 Munich Security Conference kicks off and geopolitical
00:07tensions are running high, from great power rivalry to conflicts testing global diplomacy.
00:14Few understand these dynamics better than Wolfgang Ischinger, former ambassador and long-time MSC
00:20chairman. And we speak with him about the very complicated status of transatlantic relations,
00:26about what's at stake at MSC this year and where he still sees room for dialogue in an increasingly
00:34divided world. So last year, the statements by the Vice President J.D. Vance caused an outcry that he
00:41made on the stage at the Munich Security Conference. Is he coming again this year?
00:46No. The most recent information we received from Washington D.C. is that the U.S. administration
01:01delegation will be headed by Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State.
01:06Okay. Transatlantic relations have been the backbone of the Munich Security Conference since its
01:12foundation in 1963. That's what you stressed again today in the press conference. And you say that
01:18they are in a deep crisis of trust and credibility. Your report has an unusual dramatic title under
01:28deconstruction. So where do we stand in terms of transatlantic relations? How do you work together
01:35with an administration that is out to demolish so much of what is really important to Europeans?
01:42Well, I think we have a double mission. The first mission, the first part of the mission, is that we
01:50need to consider ourselves like a bicycle repair shop. You know, you bring in your bike which has been
01:57damaged and you say, can you repair this so that I can continue my trip? So part of our mission, I think,
02:05is to at least offer the possibility of repair work in terms of rebuilding trust,
02:12confidence building, etc., among transatlantic partners. Obviously, trust has been
02:20damaged. Think of Greenland, think of other recent issues. The other probably more
02:28more significant, more demanding part of our mission needs to be to think about the longer term. Can Europe,
02:42and if so, how can Europe, fulfill an American demand which is, you should actually be standing on your own
02:52two feet, you Europeans. After 80 years of relying on the American security umbrella,
03:02take things into your own hands. This is not an...
03:05You know, this is a demand which I have a lot of sympathy for. It's not written in the Bible that 450
03:17million Europeans, as the Polish prime minister used to say, that 450 million Europeans need 350
03:25million Americans to defend themselves against 140 million Russians. So why can we not comply with the
03:34American demand of doing more for ourselves, becoming more capable, more self-reliant? If that's what
03:41America wants, we should respond to it and become more, and actually be a little more self-confident also,
03:49as we try to tackle this second part of the mission, which is, of course, not something where you can push
03:56a button. It's going to take many months, years, probably, to move in that direction.
04:03Now, you chose deliberately to invite members of the far-right AFD party to the Munich Security
04:10Conference. Unlike your successor and predecessor, Christoph Heusgen, when he was chairman of the MSC,
04:17he didn't invite the far-right AFD party because of them being categorized as partly right-wing extremists.
04:25Some people are saying that you gave in to American pressure. What's your reaction to that?
04:30Well, first of all, there was never any kind of American pressure. That's just a myth.
04:38I've never been approached by anyone from the US side about this at all. Second,
04:44I just want to make sure that everyone understands my sympathy for the AFD is close to zero.
04:57I have no sympathy for this party, but I need to recognize I am the head of a private foundation,
05:05which runs a private, independent dialogue forum called the Munich Security Conference. And with
05:13what kind of democratic understanding will I take a decision to exclude categorically from my events
05:23the largest German opposition party? Look, when Christoph Heusgen took a decision two years ago
05:31not to invite the AFD, there was a concrete reason for that. The AFD had just walked out
05:36of a speech by President Zelensky in the German Bundestag, which was really something which made everybody,
05:42including myself, very, very angry. But since that moment, we've had elections in this country,
05:50and the AFD is now the single largest opposition party. Should I ignore that? They get themselves
05:57invited by our head of state. They are sitting in every single committee of the German Bundestag.
06:02And I really, I'm deeply opposed to the idea that by excluding them categorically, we should allow
06:12them to present themselves as being victimized again. So we decided to adopt a minimalistic solution.
06:22There will be no speech by any AFD. There will be no panel position by any AFD member. And out of 1,000
06:30invited participants, these are three. Okay, so let's not get excited about it. Let's just think that
06:38this is a normal procedure in a democratic country. I would like to stay with the US for a little
06:45longer because of course of the tricky relationship that Europe and the US have at the moment. That also
06:51goes for a big scandal that is shaking up European capitals at the moment, the Epstein case. Now the
06:59Polish government is actively investigating potential links to the Russian secret service. What do you
07:06think happened here? Are we talking about Russian forms of warfare when we talk about Jeffrey Epstein?
07:15Well, let me start by saying that we have of course had, and we continue to have,
07:21hybrid warfare by Russia in all respects against Europe generally, and against individual European
07:32countries in particular, including in particular because we're the biggest one among the European
07:39EU member countries, including in this country. We have had murder, we have had cyber attacks,
07:45we have all sorts of hybrid propaganda activities. In other words, no surprise that Russia is looking at all
07:57opportunities to tell the Russian side of the story and to influence decision makers and the public
08:07in the West. Is there a Russian angle to the Epstein file story? I don't know. But let me put it this way,
08:19if it turns out there is, I wouldn't be surprised. Would you call for an investigation by German authorities?
08:26Well, I don't know why, what role German authorities would have in that respect. I'm not aware that there is any,
08:36anyone that I know about from the German side involved in any direct or indirect way. If there were,
08:44if we had a reason to believe that there is a German angle to this, yes, of course we should investigate. And I'm sure there would
08:51be investigations if any state attorney felt that there was something that needed to be uncovered.
09:00So far, I haven't had, I have not heard about that at all. But we'll see how the story develops.
09:08Now, Poland is a country that is warning very loudly of the Russian threats. And you keep stressing yourself
09:17that Russia's war against Ukraine is going into the fifth year now in two weeks time. So you've made
09:24an interesting suggestion, essentially, that Germany needs to contribute more to the NATO's frontline
09:32states. What should Germany do in your eyes to help make these countries feel safer when it comes to the
09:39threat from Russia?
09:40Well, look, I mean, for Germany, this is a tremendous historical departure from the practice of the last
09:4980 years. For the first time since World War II, Germany has offered to deploy and is currently deploying
09:58an entire brigade into a neighboring country, namely to Lithuania. That's a very important part of this
10:06effort. By the way, it costs a lot of money. And the Lithuanians, as far as I can tell, are extremely happy
10:14about this strengthening of their own military backbone. An entire brigade for a small country like Lithuania
10:23is not nothing. In that spirit, all I am saying is, let's think about how we can contribute to strengthening
10:35the frontline countries. Lithuania is one of them, but there is Poland, there is Estonia, there is Latvia,
10:43and there are others, there's Finland, etc. Can we contribute to strengthening the frontline countries in just
10:51the same way that in the Cold War, my own country was strengthened by American, British, French, Belgian, and other
11:00efforts and presence of their soldiers and huge amounts of tanks and airplanes from these countries
11:07that helped defend Germany during the Cold War? That's got to be the spirit. We need to understand
11:16that our own business is not just to defend the German border, but our own business is to defend the
11:22the European Union in its entirety. Article 42-7 of the European Union Treaty, you know, establishes
11:35a mutual assistance obligation. Everybody talks about Article 5 of the NATO Treaty. The European
11:44internal obligation is, in the way it's worded, is even stronger than the NATO obligation. And it's in that
11:51spirit that I think it's not an absurd idea to think about how we could conceivably contribute to
11:59strengthen the military capabilities of those of our neighbors who are actually directly confronted
12:06by the Russian threat along their own borders. Will next year's title of your MSC report be more hopeful,
12:14Ambassador? Well, I certainly hope so. You know, as a diplomat, or I should say in my case as a former
12:20diplomat, you've got to be seriously optimistic. You cannot survive in this profession. If you don't
12:29have the optimism that things can be done, I think Europe can speak with one voice. I hope you will speak
12:35with one voice and I hope that our Munich Security Conference this coming weekend will offer an impulse
12:41to move in that direction, a direction of capacity building, of strength, and of self-confidence.
12:50Ambassador Isinger, thank you very much. Thank you.
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