00:00Let's go across the channel. Let's return to the UK in the aftermath of the resignation of Morgan McSweeney, the chief of staff to Sir Keir Starmer.
00:08Many saying the most powerful unelected official around him.
00:11Let's get the view of Dennis McShane, former minister for Europe under Tony Blair, 2005 to 2007.
00:16I'm aware of crisis management as well. Dennis, convicted of false accounting in 2012, spent six months in prison for it for £12,900 expenses scandal.
00:28Let me ask you, Dennis, you've been involved in crisis management. How would you compare this crisis right now for Keir Starmer?
00:37Firstly, I'd hope the media would tell the truth. I spent a few weeks in prison because I wrote a book exposing anti-Semitism in the British National Party, a fascist party here in Britain.
00:48And one of its people, a former retired police officer, detective from Scotland Yard, who was an extreme right-wing anti-Semite, sent in an official complaint.
00:59To my surprise, this was referred for prosecution.
01:02No other person was treated that way. In fact, at the time, only Labour MPs were treated.
01:10Tory MPs who claimed Fiddle far more were let off by the director of public prosecutions who didn't prosecute them.
01:16That's just the facts. Now, this, very simply, it's got nothing to do with that episode.
01:22Many people are involved. I wrote a book about it. It's rather silly to bring it up, if I may say so.
01:26The point is that Morgan McSweeney is the last person between Keir Starmer and his rendezvous with destiny.
01:35The difficulty for Sir Keir is that, unlike, say, when Tony Blair became prime minister,
01:41he was surrounded by some of the smartest communicators, policy shapers in foreign policy, domestic policy, party fixing that Britain had ever seen in its political system.
01:54Mr. McSweeney is from Ireland, and he's basically known for removing left-wing Labour candidates or MPs that some of the leadership didn't like.
02:05He doesn't know anything about foreign policy, about domestic policy, about what's moving the voters.
02:10And so he was the wrong person in the wrong job at the wrong time.
02:17And it's another example of what everybody's now accepting, that Sir Keir Starmer has got many excellent qualities as a human rights lawyer,
02:27but being a top-flight politician isn't one of them.
02:30I may make a comparison to France with President Macron, who's a brilliant technocrat, very good foreign leadership,
02:37but he doesn't know how politics works inside his own country.
02:41So he's managed to get now a government that can't get any laws through the National Assembly.
02:46Something similar is happening here.
02:48I mentioned it not to offend you, Dennis McShane, but just to provide context.
02:52I think I'm right in saying that you did spend some time in prison.
02:55And I think just to make sure for the record, it was 19 expenses.
03:01It was around £12,900, I believe, that you admitted submitting fake receipts for.
03:07That's the contents that I give simply to state why you're also aware of crisis.
03:12But tell me if you dispute that.
03:15Well, if you really want to talk about me, all that referred to me travelling around Europe
03:19to effect political contacts on behalf of the government and Parliament,
03:25that was my expertise.
03:27Any British MP can go to any corner of the British Isles and it's paid for by Parliament.
03:32I just kind of stupidly assumed I could make claims like that.
03:36I was trained to claim expenses by the BBC.
03:39And there I learned about a lot of the dirty tricks.
03:42If you really want to have a discussion about journalism, ethics, anti-Semitism in Britain,
03:47and a very enjoyable time I spent.
03:51It was a matter of weeks.
03:52It was over very quickly.
03:53It wasn't, I can't even remember what the sentence was.
03:56It was less than six months.
03:57Maybe it was six months.
03:58But of that, you spend, I don't know, one third actually behind bars.
04:04The rest of it's on a tab.
04:05You can ask Nicolas Sarkozy.
04:06I suppose he has to wear a tab.
04:08And ask Madame Le Pen, who, of course, is not being allowed possibly to run for elected office in France
04:15because she stole four million euros from, embezzled four million euros from the European Parliament,
04:22not the money I just spent on Eurostar and EasyJet flights around Europe working on politics on behalf of my party and government.
04:30She denies that.
04:31That case continues.
04:32But, Dennis, the contrast that I make is, in the aftermath of that, I'll be interested to know what happens to Morgan McSweeney now.
04:40Does he get shunned by the party?
04:41The comparison is what happened to you leaving that party.
04:44And comparisons are made to, actually, what becomes of his legacy?
04:47What becomes of his legacy?
04:49Morgan McSweeney has been let go because he gave some advice to the Prime Minister that's proved to be very, very wrong.
04:59And it's the oldest saying in the Vatican, in the imperial Rome, when in doubt, boot out the advisers or the advisor.
05:09So he's now being sacrificed.
05:11But the decision remains with the Prime Minister, Sir Keir Starmer.
05:16The decision also remained with previous prime ministers like Gordon Brown and Tony Blair,
05:22who brought back Peter Mandelson after he had had to leave public office, sums of £300,000.
05:32And I don't want to go again, go into the details of all of this.
05:35And it's about judgment and the fact that the Prime Minister, unfortunately, as I say, a very distinguished human rights lawyer record,
05:45but no experience in the dirty business of being an effective politician, which in every country requires a long apprenticeship,
05:54years, decades of learning how politics works, what the public will accept, what it won't accept.
05:59And he started off by accepting free gifts of suits worth £4,000, a bit like François Fillon.
06:09Some of you may remember the French prime minister who got into trouble over that.
06:14And then he started changing allowances that had previously been decided by Labour,
06:19which took away money from poor people to be able to heat themselves during very cold winters.
06:25And other mistakes, he's done U-turns, and it's just the sense of a prime minister who is not really on top fully of his job.
06:38That's the feeling.
06:39And Labour MPs are looking at each other and talk to many, their friends, and they all are thinking secretly, some maybe out loud,
06:48will I keep my seat if we keep Sir Keir Starmer as prime minister?
06:55And a lot of them are now.
06:56There's no final decision yet.
06:57There's a couple of big election periods coming up in British political life.
07:01They're saying, well, if it goes on like this, that's me out of a job.
07:05So maybe it'd be better if Sir Keir, who's got a very good, handsome pension, very wealthy man,
07:11retires after a very distinguished career, he's in his 60s, and somebody else who maybe knows a bit more about how to do politics.
07:18Ted Tober.
07:19Dennis, in briefly, one more answer on this.
07:22Has Keir Starmer got legs left to run?
07:24Will he be still in power in two months' time?
07:28Well, I was asked with a colleague the other day on the BBC, to use the English expression,
07:33is Sir Keir Starmer toast?
07:35My colleague, a very distinguished political writer, book writer, really knows the Labour Party, said yes.
07:41I said, I'm not sure, but he's definitely in the toaster.
07:46Wait for a by-election, a very important by-election, election partielle in French,
07:50that we're going to have here in Manchester in two, two and a half weeks' time.
07:55If Labour holds that, that's a relief.
07:57But then the big one is on the 7th of May, every town, every city in Britain elects a new council,
08:05and if Labour loses that...
08:07Dennis, good to talk to you tonight.
08:09Dennis McShane, thank you, former Labour Europe minister.
08:14Stay with us on Worldview.
08:15We'll be back in just a moment.
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