00:00So I have with me Riva Ganguly Das, former High Commissioner to Bangladesh, and she is here to
00:13speak about yesterday's ICT verdict on Sheikh Hasina, which actually gave death sentence
00:19for crimes against humanity. Thank you so much, Ambassador, for speaking with AsiaNet News.
00:24You know, there is a consensus that the verdict by ICT was a politically motivated one rather
00:32than a legally sound one. How do you read this?
00:35Well, definitely, you know, given the speed at which the decision was arrived at, the fact
00:43that Sheikh Hasina did not get a lawyer of her choice, the verdict was declared in absentia.
00:52And the general political atmosphere in the country. So there is definitely, you know,
01:00reason to call it politically motivated. And we've seen the aftermath of the decision also,
01:11you know, what happened in Dhaka with violence and, you know, wanting to flatten out the Sheikh
01:19Mujib's house, 32 Dhan Mundi, the museum, in honor of the father of the nation. So clearly,
01:26there is a lot of politics also, which is going on.
01:28Ambassador, there is a definite, a wider consensus in India that there are anti-India elements in the
01:34political setup in Bangladesh. I'm talking about the interim government led by Yunus. But do you also
01:41see that the jihadist elements and the extremely radicalized elements are also included in the
01:47government and therefore this verdict? Because all of this was not only motivated by the anti-India
01:52sentiment and the politics of Bangladesh, but also the jihadist extremists that are present in the
01:57government.
01:58Oh, absolutely. Look, this whole ICT, the International Crimes Tribunal, was set up by
02:04Sheikh Hasina herself to try war criminals. And it is well recorded that, you know, the Jamaat-e-Islami,
02:11I mean, it is a known fact that the Jamaat-e-Islami opposed the formation of Bangladesh. They were,
02:18they sided with the Pakistani establishment, especially the army to identify, you know, the
02:25freedom fighters, people who were with the freedom movement and had them eliminated. And, you know,
02:34so the role of the Jamaat-e-Islami, the Al-Badar and the Rajakar is well recorded. And this whole ICT was
02:42set up to bring that part of Bangladesh's history to, you know, some justice for people who had suffered
02:50during the 71 war. And now to change the rules to make certain changes and then try
02:57why Hasina under the same, you know, rubric was, there was an irony to that itself. And
03:08it is absolutely true that the Jamaati elements, the extremist elements are running the government.
03:14It is clear from the various decisions that the government takes. And they have been, you know,
03:21under Sheikh Hasina's prime ministership, we know that even though Jamaat was not banned,
03:26it was, it was very difficult for them to carry on their activities. But, you know,
03:31they have clearly used the 15 years to strengthen themselves to come back as a massive force. And
03:39today they are certainly a big force behind the Yunus led government. And, you know, that's why,
03:47you know, the most analysts are saying this is a politically motivated decision as well.
03:56So, do you think that it is the extremists are trying to repeat what they did in 1975
04:01with Sheikh Hasina's father? They can't do that. I don't think the situation is the same.
04:06That was, you know, that was a very new country and it had not established any, you know, real rules.
04:15The country's identity was still being formed. Today, it's a much stronger country. Bangladesh has
04:25seen several decades of extremely good economic growth, you know, not to forget about the empowerment
04:32of women. Women are empowered. Bangladesh is one of the highest participation of women in the workforce and
04:39they have a strong Bangladeshi identity of their own, which is, which is, you know, based on the
04:47spirit of the 71 war. So, to do bring about that kind of mayhem today, I think is very difficult. I
04:54think there are enough, all kinds of voices in Bangladesh and the country really needs to move
04:59towards a democratic process now.
05:02Everybody seems to be also understanding that Hasina still has a lot of support of the youth
05:06of the country in Bangladesh.
05:08No, Sheikh Hasina has a lot of support. Let's not forget that, you know,
05:12in all elections held in the past, BNP and Awami League have been neck to neck. Above 30 percent
05:23votes have gone to these parties and in the past, there was, you know, alternate elections,
05:29they handed over power to each other. And Awami League certainly has a strong support. It's a grassroots
05:36party. It has absolutely, even at the village level, it has organizational, it is a strong organization.
05:43Today, of course, Awami leaguers are on the run. Many have left the country and those who are there,
05:49anyway, the government has banned their activities. So, they are in a very difficult position. But,
05:56you know, it's a massive grassroots level party with enormous amount of support. So, I think
06:04you can't write them off, not yet, not in any kind of school. But, Ambassador, if they are banned,
06:08how can then we say that the elections which are going to happen next year, they will be free and
06:14fair? Because we have two parties, Jamaat and BNP, who we have already seen in the past that they came
06:20together, then they, you know, divided, but again seems to be coming together, especially at the
06:26backdrop of this verdict. See, that's the biggest challenge that the Mahmoudini government faces now,
06:33which is to conduct a free, fair, inclusive election. Inclusive, inclusivity is already
06:42in doubt because, you know, Awami league, even though not banned, its activities are banned.
06:50Muhammad Yunus has in a recent interview said, in a meeting, said that Awami league will not be
06:58allowed to participate in the elections. So, you know, that raises a lot of questions about the
07:04fairness of the election. And it also, you know, the whole issue on the basis of which
07:11Awami league's government was brought down was that every election was unfair, political parties
07:17could not participate in the election, it was dummy election. So, that's exactly what this government is
07:22trying to do, you know, create an atmosphere where all political parties cannot participate.
07:29Besides Awami league, there are the other allies of Awami league, like Jatio party, etc.
07:36So, the government plans, they've not articulated what they want to do with them, but we'll have to
07:42wait and see what's going to happen to the other political parties, which were in an alliance with
07:47Awami league. And then there is the issue of the students party, the NCP, the National Citizens Party,
07:54which clearly the government takes a lot of decisions, which are favourable to them. They
08:01are known as King's party and they enjoy, you know, a kind of support from the government, which is
08:08completely disproportionate to their strength and to their standing. They have not even been recognised
08:14till now. And yet, they are considered as one of the three largest parties in Bangladesh. So, a lot of
08:20work has to be done to make this election credible. But election has to be done for bringing about some
08:28degree of stability in that country. Now, yesterday, you know, UNIS administration actually gave out a
08:35statement and asking India to extradite Hasina to Bangladesh. Now, of course, India will ask for evidence
08:41and then we'll examine it. How long do you think this process will be? Look, I think this decision
08:50which came yesterday was a foregone conclusion. I don't think it came as a surprise to anybody and I
08:56don't think it came as a surprise to the government of India as well. And MEA has already issued a very
09:05measured sort of a statement. So, I think it really doesn't change anything on the ground as far as
09:12India is concerned. But it certainly changes a lot of things in the way in which the, you know,
09:18Western countries perceive this because most countries are not, you know, it will be, let's put it this way,
09:27that if Hasina now makes a case for moving to any other country because she, because there is a death
09:34sentence against her, the Western countries will have to take a different position on this now because
09:42they have the very strong anti-death penalty, you know, laws and they stand against a death penalty.
09:51So, I think it's, you know, and given the statement that Amnesty has already made and other human rights
10:00organizations are making, it will make her position a little different globally.
10:04How do you see the current ties between India and Bangladesh, especially after the ouster of Hasina?
10:11We have seen a lot of videos and a lot of images circulating on social media, how the minority
10:17was under attack and continues to be under attack in Bangladesh.
10:20So, India definitely needs to also take up this case with Bangladesh.
10:24Of course, I think, you know, it's minorities have been attacked and generally speaking,
10:31Bangladesh seems to be slipping under the control of mobs and, you know, there is hardly any,
10:40the law and order situation is very bad and all of this should worry India a lot.
10:45Our relations have deteriorated over since August 5, there is no doubt about that.
10:52But India maintains technical level relations with Bangladesh.
10:57You know that the National Security Advisor of Bangladesh, Mr. Khalilu Rahman, is likely to visit
11:03India for the meeting of National Security NSA's of a few countries, which is an institutionalized
11:15mechanism.
11:16So, I think both countries do realize that there is, you know, you can't change your neighbors,
11:23so you have to work with your neighbors and this is far too important a relationship.
11:28So, time will tell how this will work out, but definitely there is a need to,
11:34you know, bring some semblance of normalcy in the relationship.
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