00:00So I have with me Riva Ganguly Das, former High Commissioner to Bangladesh, and she's here to
00:13speak about yesterday's ICT verdict on Sheikh Hasina, which actually gave death sentence
00:19for crimes against humanity. Thank you so much, Ambassador, for speaking with Aishanet News.
00:24You know, there is a consensus that the verdict by ICT was a politically motivated one rather
00:32than a legally sound one. How do you read this?
00:35Well, definitely, you know, given the speed at which the decision was arrived at, the fact
00:43that Sheikh Hasina did not get a lawyer of her choice, the verdict was declared in absentia.
00:52And the general political atmosphere in the country. So there is definitely, you know,
01:00reason to call it politically motivated. And we've seen the aftermath of the decision also,
01:11you know, what happened in Dhaka with violence and, you know, wanting to flatten out the Sheikh
01:19Mujib's house, 32 Dhan Mundi, the museum, in honor of the father of the nation. So clearly,
01:26there is a lot of politics also, which is going on.
01:28Ambassador, there is a definite, a wider consensus in India that there are anti-India elements in the
01:34political setup in Bangladesh. I'm talking about the interim government led by Yunus. But do you also
01:41see that the jihadist elements and the extremely radicalized elements are also included in the
01:46government and therefore this verdict? Because all of this was not only motivated by the anti-India
01:52sentiment and the politics of Bangladesh, but also the jihadist extremists that are present in the
01:57government. Oh, absolutely. Look, this whole ICT, the International Crimes Tribunal, was set up by
02:04Sheikh Hasina herself to try war criminals. And it is well recorded that, you know, the Jamaat-e-Islami,
02:11I mean, it is, it is a known fact that the Jamaat-e-Islami opposed the formation of Bangladesh.
02:16They were, they sided with the Pakistani establishment, especially the army, to identify,
02:23you know, the freedom fighters, people who were with the freedom movement and had them eliminated
02:31and, you know, so the role of the Jamaat-e-Islami, the Al-Badar and the Rajakar is well recorded.
02:40And this whole ICT was set up to bring that part of Bangladesh's history to, you know, some justice for
02:49people who had suffered during the 71 war. And now to change the rules, to make certain changes and then
02:57try Hasina under the same, you know, rubric was, there was an irony to that itself. And it is
03:08absolutely true that the Jamaat-e-Islami elements, the extremist elements are running the government.
03:14It is clear from the various decisions that the government takes and they have been, you know,
03:21under Sheikh Hasina's prime ministership. We know that even though Jamaat was not banned, it was,
03:27it was very difficult for them to carry on their activities. But, you know, they have clearly used
03:32the 15 years to strengthen themselves, to come back as a massive force. And today they are certainly a big
03:41force behind the UNUS led government. And, you know, that's why, you know, the most analysts are saying,
03:51this is a politically motivated decision as well.
03:55So, do you think that it is the extremists are trying to repeat what they did in 1975 with Sheikh Hasina's father?
04:02They can't do that. I don't think the situation is the same. That was, you know, that was a very new country.
04:10And it had not established any, you know, real rules. The country's identity was still
04:17being formed. Today it's a much stronger country. Bangladesh has seen several decades of extremely
04:27good economic growth. You know, not to forget about the empowerment of women. Women are empowered.
04:34Bangladesh is one of the highest participation of women in the workforce. And they have a strong
04:40Bangladeshi identity of their own, which is, you know, based on the spirit of the 1971 war. So,
04:49to do bring about that kind of mayhem today, I think is very difficult. I think there are enough
04:55all kinds of voices in Bangladesh. And the country really needs to move towards a democratic process now.
05:01Everybody seems to be also understanding that Hasina still has a lot of support
05:06of the youth of the country in Bangladesh. You know, Sheikh Hasina has a lot of support.
05:10Let's not forget that, you know, in all elections held in the past, BNP and
05:19Awami League have been neck to neck. Above 30% votes have gone to these parties. And in the past,
05:26there was, you know, alternate elections. They handed over power to each other.
05:31And Awami League certainly has a strong support. It's a grassroots party. It has absolutely,
05:39even at the village level, it has organizational, it is a strong organization. Today, of course,
05:44Awami leaguers are on the run. Many have left the country and those who are there, anyway,
05:50the government has banned their activities. So, they are in a very difficult position. But,
05:55you know, it's a massive grassroots level party with an enormous amount of support. So, I think
06:04you can't write them off, not yet, not in any time soon.
06:07Ambassador, if they are banned, how can then we say that the elections which are going to happen next
06:12year, they will be free and fair? Because we have two parties, Jamaat and BNP, who we have already
06:19seen in the past that they came together, then they, you know, divided, but again seems to be coming
06:25together, especially at the backdrop of this verdict. See, that's the biggest challenge that
06:31the Mahmoudini government faces now, which is to conduct a free, fair, inclusive election. Inclusive,
06:40inclusivity is already in doubt because, you know, Awami league, even though not banned, its activities
06:49are banned. Mahmoud Yunus has in a recent interview said, in a meeting, said that Awami league will not
06:57be allowed to participate in the elections. So, you know, that raises a lot of questions about the
07:03fairness of the election. And it also, you know, the whole issue on the basis of which Awami league's
07:12government was brought down was that every election was unfair, political parties could not participate
07:18in the election, it was dummy election. So, that's exactly what this government is trying to do,
07:23you know, create an atmosphere where all political parties cannot participate. Besides Awami league,
07:31there are the other allies of Awami league, like Jatio party, etc. So, the government plans,
07:38they've not articulated what they want to do with them, but we'll have to wait and see what's going
07:43to happen to the other political parties, which were in an alliance with Awami league. And then there
07:48is the issue of the students party, the NCP, the National Citizens party, which clearly the government
07:56takes a lot of decisions which are favourable to them. They are known as King's party and they enjoy,
08:06you know, a kind of support from the government, which is completely disproportionate to their
08:11strength and to their standing. They have not even been recognised till now. And yet, they are considered
08:16as one of the three largest parties in Bangladesh. So, a lot of work has to be done to make this election
08:23credible. But election has to be done for bringing about some degree of stability in that country.
08:31Now, yesterday, you know, UNICE administration actually gave out a statement and asking India to
08:36extradite Hasina to Bangladesh. Now, of course, India will ask for evidence and then will examine it.
08:43How long do you think this process will be?
08:47Look, I think this decision which came yesterday was a foregone conclusion. I don't think
08:53it came as a surprise to anybody and I don't think it came as a surprise to the government of India as
08:58well. And MEA has already issued a very measured sort of a statement. So, I think it really doesn't
09:09change anything on the ground as far as India is concerned. But it certainly changes a lot of things
09:15in the way in which the Western countries perceive this because most countries are not, you know,
09:25it will be, let's put it this way, that if Hasina now makes a case for moving to any other country
09:32because there is a death sentence against her, the Western countries will have to take a different
09:40position on this now because they have the very strong anti-death penalty, you know, laws and they
09:48stand against a death penalty. So, I think it's, you know, and given the statement that Amnesty has
09:58already made and other human rights organizations are making, it will make her position a little
10:03different globally. How do you see the current ties between India and Bangladesh especially after the
10:09ouster of Hasina? We have seen a lot of videos and a lot of images circulating on social media how the
10:16minority was under attack and continues to be under attack in Bangladesh. So, India definitely needs to
10:22also take up this case with Bangladesh. Of course, I think, you know, its minorities have been attacked and
10:30generally speaking Bangladesh seems to be slipping under the control of mobs and, you know, there is
10:38hardly any, the law and order situation is very bad and all of this should worry India a lot. Our relations
10:46have deteriorated over since August 5. There is no doubt about that but India maintains technical level
10:55relations with Bangladesh. You know that the National Security Advisor of Bangladesh, Mr. Khalilud Rahman,
11:01is likely to visit India for the meeting of National Security NSA's of a few countries which is an
11:13institutionalized mechanism. So, I think both countries do realize that there is, you know, you can't
11:22change your neighbors so you have to work with your neighbors and this is far too important a relationship
11:28so time will tell how this will work out but definitely there is a need to, you know, bring some
11:35semblance of normalcy in the relationship.
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