- 8 hours ago
Soho restaurants, fine dining and the rising popularity of Georgian food | The Standard's food and drink podcast
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00I had a sword fight with the waiter with our breadsticks.
00:02We left the restaurant smelling really bad.
00:05Kingly Court, by the way, is where restaurants go to die.
00:09My area of expertise.
00:10It was utterly sensational.
00:12Hello and welcome to another episode of the Standards of Food and Drink podcast.
00:15He's...
00:15Josh Barry.
00:16I'm...
00:17David Ellis.
00:17And we're just going to discuss everything that's going on in food and drink.
00:20I think the first thing to say is we spoke a couple of weeks ago about business rates for pubs
00:24and they've been dropped, which is fantastic news.
00:28Yes.
00:29What's weird about it is that they're not doing it for hotels, restaurants, nightclubs
00:34and stuff.
00:35Yes.
00:36But I suppose the only thing to point out is that the rate changes are affecting pubs so
00:40much more than your typical restaurant that it kind of matters a bit more that pubs got
00:45them.
00:46Do you have any strong thoughts on it?
00:48Well, it's just optics as everything is with the government.
00:52I think they don't...
00:53I don't know.
00:54I'm not convinced that they really understand still or care all that much.
00:59About much, really.
01:01They're just...
01:02Obviously, pubs is an easy win.
01:05Mm-hmm.
01:05Because everyone goes to the pub and loves pubs and it's kind of this British cultural
01:12pin-up.
01:13Mm-hmm.
01:14And Touchstone, whereas restaurants are a little bit trickier, certainly hotels as well.
01:19Yeah, I think we touched on that when we were talking about it before, that we didn't want
01:22it just to be a PR win.
01:23It's a PR win, the pubs thing.
01:25Yeah, and that's what we were worried about.
01:26That's all government is and all politics is.
01:28I mean, I think it's really telling that Reeves, when she was asked why not else, she
01:33went, oh, well, pubs are different.
01:34And you're like, that confirmed all of that suspicion that I had.
01:38Yeah.
01:38And what I was saying before about it being a PR stunt.
01:41Well, that's enough of that.
01:42At least something has happened.
01:43But yeah, I think our message would be more, more, more, more, more.
01:47Right, let's do second sittings where we tell you what we ate and reviewed this week.
01:52Yeah.
01:52So, Josh, where did you review this week?
01:54The Overstreet Counter.
01:55The Magnificent Martin.
01:56Mm.
01:57Talk me through it.
01:59Well, it's somewhere in Mayfair.
02:04Do you think it might be Dover Street?
02:05Yeah, it is, actually.
02:07And yeah, it's just a little sister to the Dover, a well-known place.
02:11Anyone who doesn't know, it's a very cool and chic and glamorous place that celebrities
02:17like to go.
02:19Dover Street Counter is a little bit kind of more part back, a little bit easier, more
02:23casual.
02:25Somewhere to go.
02:26So, and they, for a margarita, there's a margarita menu, there are eight available, and
02:3214 quid, which is not bad in Mayfair for a marg.
02:38They're pretty punchy.
02:39I had a couple of spicy ones, and then a burger, which is, I would say, there is, obviously,
02:47last year we saw this table burger situation.
02:50Mm-hmm.
02:51Places like Canal.
02:53Or I say.
02:54Yeah, and, well, it's called Dove now, isn't it?
02:58Oh, yeah, sorry.
03:00And One Club Row, et cetera, et cetera.
03:01Yeah.
03:02And so there's been a sort of continuation of that, but kind of a little bit more refined
03:07in that it's kind of the bar burger now.
03:09Mm-hmm.
03:09Very American, culturally, and you've got places like Corksmore doing one, really good,
03:15which pairs very well with Martini.
03:20Dover Street Counter, really good.
03:22And simple is better, and obviously, as we've talked about, it's gone are the smash burgers
03:29and back are the sort of just normal patties, ketchup, mustard, onions, gherkins, slice of
03:36American cheese, simple bun, not brioche, bish-bash-bosh.
03:40Away you go.
03:41Yeah, I think what was good about it is that Martin, who owns it, who owns the Dover and
03:45Martino's, had also said that he wanted somewhere that if you worked around Mayfair, but you
03:49don't necessarily earn, like, Mayfair resident money, that you could just pop in, get a drink
03:56and a burger or a sandwich or whatever, and then go out, and I think what's good about
03:59it is, for me, when I visited it, it fully fulfilled that, but also it was incredibly
04:04stylish.
04:05It didn't really feel like the lesser option than going to the Dover or any of that part
04:10of Mayfair's restaurants, which are, by and large, enormously expensive.
04:14And shit.
04:16That is true, too, but this, I thought, like, as much care and attention had been put there,
04:20it's just at a slightly lower price point, and I think I'd probably use it to pop in
04:24rather than to go for a full meal, but I think that just is according to taste.
04:30Yeah, it's good, and obviously they've got the little place below that you can kind of
04:34hang out in until whatever time, and yeah, I mean, it's sort of New York in style, isn't
04:40it?
04:40I mean, you just go in, have a burger, have a couple of drinks.
04:42I felt more like Hollywood to me.
04:45I felt more like an L.A. place.
04:46Never been.
04:47Right.
04:48But yeah, nice.
04:49Where did you go?
04:50I went to Daka Daka, which is a Jordan restaurant on Headon Street, and it takes the sight of
04:58where all sort of cool new restaurants try to open, although actually it has quite a
05:02bad track record.
05:03Fallow famously made their name there, and Fallow, I think, is brilliant.
05:07And there's a lot of hype about it.
05:10People are sort of seeing it as a novelty because it's Georgian, which is really a bit
05:15weird because we already have loads of Georgian restaurants, and we've had them for 10, 15
05:19years, and especially in the last five years, there's been tons of openings.
05:23But I would say I just didn't like it.
05:29Yeah.
05:30Service was brilliant, and quite often I talk about how important service is to a restaurant,
05:35and that actually if the food's not that good, service can save it.
05:38But I would say this food was sufficiently one note that all the service in the world
05:43couldn't have made it better.
05:45Yeah, it's funny.
05:46I suppose the thing about Georgian food being the kind of food that is the food of 2026.
05:53As you said, we've had Georgian restaurants like Little Georgia in Islington for ages, but
06:00it's also the point that we've had West African restaurants for, I don't know, 40 years, when
06:07they came into the limelight with places like Jashua and Okoko, 2023, 24.
06:13And so, despite the fact we've had Georgian food, it's now kind of in the mainstream, and
06:19Daka Daka, I suppose, is the kind of pinnacle of that, in that it's a Mayfair site, big
06:26wine list, big names behind it, big money behind it, which we haven't seen with the
06:29Georgian restaurant.
06:30Apart from that place on the street, Ali.
06:32Oh, we had King Cali in Fitzpatrick as well, which had a lot of money behind it.
06:35Oh yeah, it never really, it wasn't like the poof place though.
06:38Not quite as much as this, I think probably it opened with a lot of other stuff or something,
06:41and at the moment, there's not been anything huge.
06:45Yeah, exactly, yeah.
06:46But you didn't like it, I thought it was great, but obviously, that was a press dinner, whereas
06:50you were reviewing and having, and they didn't know, and everything, so it's very different.
06:55Yeah, yeah, I just didn't rate it, I just thought everything tasted the same, there were
06:59some sort of technical issues with, the dumplings were incredibly underfilled, to the point I took
07:04a photo, because I couldn't believe how little they had.
07:08Yes, and so, and also it was enormously expensive.
07:12Yeah, yeah.
07:12So, for me, that sort of does the double, it's expensive and it's shit.
07:16Yeah, yeah, well that's a shame.
07:18Yeah.
07:18I mean, maybe they'll, as with anything, obviously it's early on, they'll have a chance to turn
07:23things around, maybe.
07:24Yeah, and other things like, the fact that we left the restaurant smelling really bad,
07:30it's like, okay, that's a...
07:31Oh, that's not their fault, that's just...
07:33Yeah, it's an extraction issue, so they need to sort things like that out, and I was surprised
07:38that with all the money behind it, no one had gone, you know that when you come out, like,
07:43you reek.
07:43Now, we will play over Raced Under Raced.
07:47It explains itself.
07:49This week's topic is...
07:50Sorry, restaurants.
07:52My area of expertise, or used to be...
07:55Kiln.
07:55Fairly rated as Magnificent.
07:59Yeah, agreed.
08:00Kiln is one of the restaurants I recommend most, even though I don't get to pop in that
08:04much anymore, but every time people are like, where should I go in London, without a doubt,
08:08Kiln is top of mind.
08:09Yeah, it's good.
08:10Brilliant restaurant.
08:11Dodgini Express.
08:13Oh, that's moving again, isn't it, from Kingley Court.
08:16Kingley Court, by the way, is where restaurants go to die.
08:19Yeah.
08:20So, maybe it's moving out to try and save itself.
08:24Yeah, I...
08:26I think...
08:28This is overrated or underrated, not is it good or bad.
08:31It's a good restaurant.
08:31I think the fact that it has so much hype from the Hollywood associations of, like, Paul Rudd
08:36and stuff, everything is ever so slightly overrated, but that's not a huge criticism of it.
08:41It's a perfectly good restaurant.
08:43Andrew Edmunds.
08:44Oh, yeah.
08:45I mean...
08:46I had a chicken liver pate in the Academy above Andrew Edmunds not so long ago, and it
08:51was utterly sensational.
08:53Yeah.
08:53And chicken liver pate is one of those dishes which is, like, I could live on forever and
08:59not really bother with it, but then, mostly because most of it is shit, but then reminded
09:06of the fact that it can be super graceful.
09:09And there's a little bit of toast in a glass of water.
09:11It's fantastic.
09:12So, buy that.
09:13But then I've not eaten at Andrew Edmunds in a couple of years downstairs, so...
09:18Yeah, I mean, it's one of my favourite restaurants, so if you've not heard of Andrew Edmunds, I'd
09:24underrated, it's completely brilliant.
09:27Yeah.
09:28But I guess everyone I know who knows it loves it, so I think it's fairly rated, again,
09:32a bit like Kiln, as just a brilliant...
09:34St. Tushan, if you're a wine lover, it's amazing.
09:37The list is brilliant for that.
09:38If you don't drink, I don't know, I would say it's definitely a restaurant for you, because
09:41the food is pretty straightforward.
09:43It's very sparkly.
09:45It's sort of like a film restaurant, as in, you know, it could be...
09:48Yeah.
09:49It's certainly...
09:49I mean, obviously, the trope is that it's...
09:52The most romantic restaurant.
09:53The most romantic, yeah, a place to go on a date.
09:55Well, that's only because you're, you know, you're sat so close to each other, you could
09:58possibly conceive just over a meal.
10:01What I would say, my top tip is, go downstairs.
10:04Everyone thinks you want to be upstairs, but actually, downstairs, they'll just leave you
10:08alone.
10:08You can be there for hours and hours, and that's what makes it amazing.
10:10Reaters.
10:11I actually had a burger, the Dumbo X, Reaters Burger yesterday.
10:17Oh, yeah?
10:18What was that?
10:18It was all right.
10:19A bit too much sauce.
10:21I think I haven't been to Reaters in forever.
10:24It just wasn't for me, but that is based on when it opened, which is a long time ago.
10:28It's a very cool restaurant.
10:30Lots of people who wear New Balance go there.
10:33It's quite a weird demographic, the New Balance demographic, isn't it?
10:36It's a lot of, like, suburban dads, and then, for some reason, cool kids now.
10:40It's all right.
10:40Last time I went, it was pretty good.
10:43Yeah.
10:43I don't know how it's rated, though.
10:44See, I feel like it's really highly rated, which makes me think it's overrated, but because
10:48I haven't been in so long, it's actually unfair for me to say.
10:51Speedboat bar.
10:53Oh, yeah.
10:53I like speedboat.
10:54I like the prawns.
10:56I like the prawns.
10:57They're properly spicy, and it's hard to find really properly spicy food in the centre
11:03of town.
11:05Yeah, I think it's fairly rated.
11:06I think it has a good and big reputation, and it's a good restaurant.
11:10Also, pool table upstairs.
11:12Yeah.
11:12Very important.
11:13Bob, Bob, Rick Harden.
11:14I actually think underrated, because it has quite a bad reputation these days, because
11:19it was such the place to be about 10 years ago, maybe a bit before that.
11:23But actually, I think it's quite good value.
11:26It seems to have never raised its prices.
11:28So what was once an expensive, gaudy restaurant is actually, okay, you're sat on the Orient
11:34Express by way of Elton John, and you're having quite a reasonable meal, and they're so generous
11:41with the caviar and the champagne and vodka, and if you want that kind of completely mad
11:48Russian-esque experience, I think it's really good.
11:52And the chicken in Kiev's brilliant.
11:53So people just assume that it's rubbish because they don't hear about it all the time, but
11:57I think it's great, so I'm going to say it's underrated.
12:00I haven't been in ages.
12:01I had a good, I used to have, I've had a couple of good nights in there, back in the day, many
12:05years ago.
12:08But I have been to Bebe Bob more recently, and I didn't think much of that.
12:13I'm not a huge fan of Bebe Bob, even though people are going, isn't that one better?
12:16It's like, no, you need the full Bob Bob experience.
12:18Yeah, I think that's, I certainly agree.
12:21Wow.
12:21Yeah, it's all right.
12:22I'm not huge on Bao.
12:24I don't like Bao anyway.
12:26They're fine, they're nice.
12:27I don't know why they had such a moment.
12:29It's like, oh, there's this new thing.
12:30It's really doughy.
12:31Because it was a new thing, and that you couldn't really get it in, it would just hit the mainstream.
12:36I think the design of Bao is incredible.
12:38I think whoever their designer is just makes them look really beautiful, and also a bit
12:42like they've just come straight out of a video game.
12:45So I like that very much.
12:46I like the, yeah.
12:47I don't like the product in any form.
12:48It's not like they're bad at it.
12:49I think they're probably good at the product.
12:50I just don't like the product, so it's personal opinion.
12:54Yeah.
12:54I mean, I like the other stuff, the little noodley things they do.
12:58It's quite good.
12:59Plus, you can mooch past and just get a £5 bout.
13:02That's quite good.
13:03Yeah.
13:03I think probably back in the day, overrated, now fairly rated as decent.
13:07And if you like that, go for it.
13:09Right, let's move on.
13:10Now we're going to play Bone to Pick, where we just have a go at stuff, or if we don't
13:15care, just mutter about burgers.
13:18So is fine dining overrated is the topic.
13:20So the reason that this came up is I did an interview with Ben Murphy, who used to be
13:24at Launceston Place, and now has a brilliant restaurant called 74 Charlotte Street by Ben
13:28Murphy.
13:28You can guess where it is.
13:30Swindon.
13:31Yeah, that's it.
13:32And with him, the issue is that he's perceived so much as this fine dining chef that actually
13:41people don't go because they don't realise that this restaurant's much more casual.
13:44It has a two-course lunch menu that also runs on Friday and Saturday evenings for £30.
13:50He's not doing...
13:52I mean, the food is detailed and brilliant and fine dining, but actually, right now, because
13:57people are spending less, fine dining is a turn-off for a lot of people.
14:04In general, I think fine dining's been having...
14:08It depends how it's done, right?
14:10If it's done in the modern sense, which they still want you to have a great time, and they're
14:13not stuffy about it, then it can be brilliant.
14:15And the example that I would use that people always just assume is terrible, even though
14:19no one's...
14:20barely anyone's actually been, is Three Star Sketch.
14:23The restaurant right at the top of Sketch is amazing because they make it so special,
14:27so elaborate, so over the top.
14:29And you could also say the Ritz, it's very grand.
14:32Those experiences are not overrated.
14:34They're fantastic.
14:35Where it does get overrated is a restaurant like Corners in Belgravia, where the food is
14:40impeccable, I can't fault the food at all, but it is a dead room with a dead atmosphere.
14:46And then if you went, unless you're like a real food nerd, you wouldn't think fine dining
14:50was all that.
14:51Do you know, I don't have much to say about fine dining.
14:53I like Hospital Road, Gordon Ramsay.
14:57I think it's great.
14:58I like the Ritz, it's great.
15:00If you've got loads of money and you love food, then it's fantastic.
15:04Do you know, I went to a supper club called Taku, which is a chef called Max Posner, and
15:11he acts in this year in Wales, which is this, how many courses is it?
15:15Like 18?
15:17Yeah, 18 courses.
15:1818 courses.
15:20It's the UK's most expensive restaurant, and everything.
15:23He trained there.
15:25And what he's doing is quite interesting because it's in his childhood family home.
15:29So you sit at a communal table and you don't have all the stuffiness of the surf from the
15:33left and all that.
15:35But for him, that's because he's a food obsessive.
15:38So it's about what's on the plate purely.
15:41And I think if you're that kind of person, then there are loads of restaurants that you'll
15:45think are brilliant.
15:45I guess from a perspective of kind of readers, there's often in food media kind of scrutiny
15:53about how restaurant critics or whatever focus too much on fine dining.
15:58Certainly Michelin, et cetera.
16:01And I guess that's because it's got so much heightened risk because invariably high-end
16:07fine dining restaurants are the most expensive out there because the ingredients, the vibe,
16:11the amount of service you need for silver service or similar, the room, the glam, everything.
16:17And so it does need to be, I suppose, it is kind of in the spotlight.
16:22And that's why people care about it so much.
16:27And so it's helpful, I think, for places like Michelin, and obviously that's coming up
16:33next week, to scrutinise and deliberate and have a look and send in inspectors who pay
16:38because then, yeah, you can assess whether it's worth it.
16:42And I think, I suppose, my biggest take would be when fine dining is right, it's worth, if
16:50you like food and you're into wine, it can be a really, really special thing, like going
16:55on holiday or going to a theme park, something that costs a lot of money.
17:01And that's really cool and it can be a really special thing.
17:04And to be fair, you always talk about your birthdays where you've had them at big places
17:07and those experiences really last with people.
17:11But I think one side of that, and actually this is the case, is, so I think why it gets
17:15attention from critics, although we don't do tons of it, is because you need to let people
17:20know if it's worth spending all that money.
17:21Exactly, yeah.
17:21But what I would say to people is that there's this perception about fine dining, that you
17:26have to behave a certain way, that you won't have a good time, that it'd be very formal,
17:30that they'll be judging you.
17:31So that is not how you need to use a fine dining restaurant.
17:34No.
17:34If you want to go have loads to drink or just enjoy yourself, talk loudly, whatever, it's
17:41a restaurant, you're paying for a product, enjoy it.
17:44And if you're relaxed about it, you'll probably have a better time.
17:47Because the staff aren't there to say, well, I don't know if you noticed, but his genes
17:51were a bit tassier.
17:52They don't really care.
17:54No, the best ones are with great humour, not stuffy.
17:58I mean, also that's changed because they used to be a bit elitist and stuffy.
18:01Oh, I definitely think they used to.
18:02And some of them still are a little, but most of them, and the best ones, have modernised
18:06to the point of, I mean, in Le Clarence in Paris, they serve breadsticks that are that
18:11long.
18:11Yeah.
18:12I had a sword fight with a waiter with our breadsticks.
18:14I mean, we were wind up a little bit, and I think he had a couple of glasses.
18:19But that was really fun.
18:20And, like, you know, they can be good fun and really lovely.
18:24Fundamentally great fine dining restaurants are not overrated.
18:27They are the best of the best.
18:29When they're executed poorly or with snobbery, they suck.
18:34Right.
18:34Thank you very much.
18:35That rounds up this.
18:37Like, subscribe, comment, all that stuff.
18:40And we'll see you for the next one.
18:42Bye.
18:43We're doing peace signs now.
18:44Yeah.
18:45Sweet.
18:45We're doing peace signs now.
Comments