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00:00For more information visit www.fema.org
00:05It's been called the biggest miscarriage of justice.
00:10In British history, eventually I became bankrupt.
00:13The bank repossessed the premises.
00:15And I lost everything.
00:18A public inquiry...
00:20...has spent years trying to get to the truth.
00:23I actually attempted...
00:25...of suicide.
00:27But somebody saved me.
00:29Did you tell the truth this time?
00:30So who's really to blame for the post office scandal?
00:35Do you apologise to seem a misery in person, Mr Jenkins?
00:38Would you like to meet her?
00:40I mean, different story.
00:41You know?
00:42Like, you would have told the truth.
00:43You would have been...
00:44I would have been like a free woman.
00:45You would have enjoyed the pregnancy.
00:46You would have a happy life.
00:47We investigate some of those accused of...
00:50...hiding the truth.
00:51I find the whole lot of them absolutely despicable.
00:55And we ask...
00:59Who could face...
01:00..prosecution.
01:02How do they sleep with knowing?
01:05What they've done.
01:10What they've done.
01:15What they've done.
01:20Aldwych House in central London.
01:23Home to the post office.
01:25We've all heard the appalling story.
01:30Postmasters unfairly jailed, lives destroyed.
01:35A suspended sentence of imprisonment for...
01:4032 weeks.
01:40That's correct, yes.
01:42When they said the 32...
01:44Weeks in prison and there was a gap.
01:47I could just hear my wife.
01:49Scream.
01:54Their reputations were ruined by horizon.
02:00The faulty computer system that could make money disappear from post office...
02:04Who's running a counsellor.
02:05They're not able to say that.
02:06Everybody needs food for lunch accounts.
02:07Nearly a thousand people...
02:09Are there any food for lunch accounts?
02:11First time in court, not even possible.
02:16It was a new experience.
02:21It was a new experience for me.
02:23Now a month custodial sentence.
02:26I was waiting for him to say suspended, but he didn't and I heard the gate.
02:31Taken from there into prison where I was strip searched.
02:36Given a uniform.
02:41The public inquiry was set up to investigate the Horizon scandal.
02:46Postmasters hope it will answer a simple question.
02:50Who?
02:51Who was to blame?
02:54We've been through the evidence in detail.
02:56It suggests senior people were responsible for the miscarriages of justice.
03:01And the cover-up that followed.
03:04We're going to look at some...
03:06One of those who face criticism at the inquiry.
03:11I swear by Almighty God.
03:12That the evidence I shall give.
03:14That the evidence I shall give.
03:16Shall be the truth.
03:17Shall be the truth.
03:18The whole truth.
03:19The whole truth.
03:20And nothing but the truth.
03:21And nothing but the truth.
03:22Thank you so much.
03:26The post office had a security team that was...
03:27The post office had a security team that was...
03:31responsible for investigating allegations of missing money.
03:36John Scott was in charge when hundreds of the prosecutions took place.
03:41His team has been accused of pressuring postmasters to confess.
03:47Their objective wasn't to get to the truth.
03:48It was to get an admission.
03:51And get the money back.
03:52That was their objective.
03:54That is...
03:55That is a complete...
03:56Completely...
03:57Improper...
03:58Objective.
03:59So...
04:00Ron Warmington's forensic accounting firm was brought...
04:04in by the post office in 2012 to investigate Horizon.
04:09It was obvious that the people that I was interviewing were innocent good people.
04:14What we actually found was that in not one case was there any evidence of theft.
04:19Not one.
04:20No evidence of fancy cars, boats, fancy holidays...
04:24security boss...
04:25security boss...
04:26security boss...
04:29John Scott was told to set up a team looking at faults and bugs in Horizon.
04:34The post office should have shared the minutes of their meetings.
04:39with postmasters who'd been convicted.
04:43But they weren't...
04:44closed.
04:47Documents show John Scott...
04:49asked for the minutes to be handwritten...
04:51not typed...
04:52and forwarded to him.
04:55I ensured that there were notes taken.
04:58Handwritten notes.
05:00Handwritten notes or whatever notes...
05:02No, handwritten notes.
05:03That's what you...
05:04you insured, isn't it?
05:05Yes.
05:06An electronic note leaves a footprint, doesn't it?
05:08Yes.
05:09An electronic note leaves a footprint, doesn't it?
05:09Yes.
05:10That's why you don't want electronic notes created, isn't it?
05:12But notes were created.
05:14I'm asking you about why you wanted handwritten notes, not electronic.
05:19notes.
05:20Because that's the brief I had.
05:22It's because they can...
05:23are less likely...
05:24to be found and disclosed, isn't it?
05:30John Scott was clearly a man...
05:33John Scott was clearly a man...
05:34who just saw his role as...
05:37round them up, lock them up.
05:39That seems to be how he ran his team.
05:42And that seems to be how most of the investors...
05:44working for him operated.
05:46You weren't innocent and proven guilty.
05:48You were guilty to...
05:49until you could prove you were innocent.
05:50Treated people.
05:51Treated people like dirt.
05:54Just constantly.
05:55Where's the money?
05:56Where's the money?
05:57Where's the money?
05:58Where's the money?
05:59Mr Scott's lawyers told Panorama...
06:02Mr Scott's lawyers told Panorama...
06:04that he had extremely limited operational responsibility.
06:07He told the...
06:09inquiry his role was primarily one of management...
06:12and he was not involved in...
06:14carrying out or overseeing criminal investigations...
06:16on a day-to-day basis.
06:20You said he had limited knowledge...
06:22of the mechanics of an investigation.
06:24How they're employees.
06:25And...
06:26You should be silent.
06:27All rights were notoriously involved.
06:28Poor woman!
06:29I want you any
06:38of you to be honest.
06:43With me...
06:44Well I think,
06:47I love...
06:49A lot of twists have never met quiling.
06:52It's dead.
06:53Horizon is a real risk for us.
06:55Does it capture data accurately?
06:58And in cases of fraud, suspects suggest it's a system.
07:03It was a clear warning.
07:08But Alice Parkins didn't act.
07:13There's no record of you having told the board?
07:17No.
07:18In fact, you didn't do anything with the information that he gave.
07:24I don't accept that.
07:26Did you disclose this any information?
07:28I can't answer that question because I don't remember.
07:33She told the Inquiry the...
07:34She told the Inquiry the...
07:38She told the meeting didn't ring alarm bells
07:40because she knew nothing about Horizon
07:42and she was...
07:43She knew to the job and taking on a lot of information.
07:48So, if that was 2011, that's the year before...
07:54I lost my post office.
07:57None of that...
07:58It needed to happen.
08:00And they knew.
08:03They deserve all they get.
08:04They deserve all they get.
08:08Over the next four years, the evidence about...
08:13Horizon's failings mounted up.
08:16But the evidence suggests Alice Perkins...
08:18...tried to keep it secret.
08:21Instead of getting to the bottom of the...
08:23problems with Horizon.
08:24Alice Perkins did the opposite.
08:28Take a crucial panorama programme from 2015.
08:33It revealed how Fujitsu computer technicians...
08:36could go into Horizon accounts...
08:38and make changes without the postmasters knowing.
08:43The post office denied that this sort of remote access was possible.
08:48We went in through the back door and made changes.
08:52Sometimes you'd be...
08:53putting several lines of code in at a time.
08:56If we hadn't done that then...
08:58the counters would have...
09:00stopped working.
09:01So what the post office are...
09:03saying is untrue.
09:05From my perspective, yes.
09:08remote access fundamentally...
09:10remote access fundamentally...
09:11remote access fundamentally...
09:13undermined the post office's claim...
09:15that postmasters must be responsible...
09:17for any missing...
09:18money.
09:19It showed that their accounts...
09:21could be secretly altered...
09:23how significant was that panorama...
09:27in the...
09:28the whole post office story.
09:29Well I think it's...
09:30that...
09:31Fujitsu...
09:32whistle...
09:33the post blower...
09:34hats off to him...
09:35because he really cracked things open...
09:37and...
09:38panorama helped him...
09:40to do that.
09:41I actually attempted suicide.
09:43but somebody saved me.
09:47And it was...
09:48only in 2015...
09:49that I saw the panorama program...
09:52that...
09:53where I realised...
09:54that...
09:55that is what could have happened...
09:56at my office as well.
09:58but...
09:59so...
10:00that...
10:01that...
10:02no.
10:03No.
10:04there...
10:05were asked all the music comenzations...
10:06that...
10:07that...
10:08It's the marriage limit to the test...
10:09other...
10:10we know...
10:11man,
10:13on...
10:14the hook...
10:15who's...
10:16we're going!
10:17to advise the post office how to take their objections about panorama to the
10:22very top experience shows that put
10:27pushing back does pay dividends in the end even though it does not
10:32feel like it at the time so I would take this as high as you can go
10:37did the post office go nuclear with
10:42panorama the post office was strong with panorama I wouldn't I wouldn't use the word
10:47nuclear
10:50Alice Perkins should
10:52have known the post office was making false statements about remote access
10:57she'd been sent a briefing a year earlier explaining how
11:02that worked this briefing says I
11:07people can access postmasters accounts without their approval they can
11:12edit and delete transactions so they can make
11:17money disappear and it would look like postmasters were to blame
11:22cover-up cover-up cover-up makes me angry
11:27you know if only she had acted on what the information that she'd been told
11:30we wouldn't be sitting here today
11:32she should have made inquiries she should have let it
11:37be known that the system is wrong and start all over
11:42again if needed to be how to sleep with no way
11:47what they've done
11:49lawyers for Alice Perkins
11:51lawyers for Alice Perkins
11:52told panorama she was not an IT expert she told the inquiry she did
11:57not recollect receiving or reading the briefing about remote
12:00access and that brief
12:02proceedings by senior executives were at critical points incomplete and
12:06sometimes misleading
12:07she said she never engaged in any form of cover-up
12:12of women's work
12:13doctor
12:14physician
12:15said
12:16the
12:17Was this a cover-up, Mr. Corker?
12:19When businessman Tim...
12:22Parker took over as post office chair,
12:24the panorama had just been broadcast.
12:27The government wanted the allegations investigated.
12:32Within months, an independent review confirmed remotely.
12:37I think there were some issues...
12:42that definitely needed addressing pretty...
12:45Yeah.
12:47..pretty urgently.
12:51The review order...
12:52...by the government told the post office
12:54to investigate remote access since Horizon was set...
12:57...in 1999.
12:58But Tim Parker allowed the recommendation...
13:02...to be watered down.
13:04And a full investigation never took place.
13:08Had Tim Parker reviewed it back to 1999,
13:11what difference...
13:12...would it have made to sub-postmasters?
13:14Well, some of them would have been alive to see...
13:17...the right outcome.
13:18Some would have not lived in penury.
13:21A lot of harm.
13:22It was done to a lot of sub-postmasters...
13:25...families.
13:27Children.
13:30Grandparents had died.
13:31Not...
13:32Seeing their children cleared.
13:33Seeing their children cleared.
13:34Seeing their children cleared.
13:37But...
13:38They came to another hospital.
13:39The...
13:40...to be الض
13:44They were very...
13:45...they couldn't see you...
13:46...but they were blind.
13:48They were even holes...
13:49...they were dead.
13:50They refused to keep taking care of...
13:51...they were dead.
13:52...they were dead.
13:53They were dead...
13:54...and they were dead.
13:55...and they were dead.
13:56They were dead...
13:57...to be dead...
13:58...and they were dead.
13:59be making your own choices? You always have to make your own choice. You know, you're the chairman of
14:04a massive company. You have to decide ultimately, it's your decision.
14:09It's the director's legal duty to know. That is very...
14:14clear from law, who is responsible? The directors are responsible. Advisors,
14:19advise, directors, decide.
14:24Tim Parker also ran the committee that oversaw the legal fight with postmasters in the
14:29civil courts. The post office's defence was that it was based on the
14:34basically impossible to remotely change transactions without postmasters knowing.
14:39After the post office admitted it was possible...
14:44The postmasters won their case, opening the way for criminal convictions...
14:49to be overturned.
14:54I think there was a sustained conspiracy to pervert the cause of justice and the post office had the...
14:59resources behind it. They spent a hundred and odd million pounds trying to...
15:04defeat them just by outspending them.
15:06Do you believe the court was misled?
15:09I think they were misled, yeah.
15:14Mr. Parker's lawyers told Panorama his committee was only consulted on the most significant decision...
15:19and he didn't think he'd seen the post office's defence.
15:24Mr. Parker said he gave detailed explanations to the inquiry...
15:29complex legal issues around Horizon and it was his considered judgement to...
15:34accept the legal advice he was given.
15:37He regrets the board...
15:39Mr. Parker failed to resolve the issues earlier and reiterates his sympathy for all those affected...
15:44Mr. Parker failed to resolve the issues...
15:46Mr. Parker failed to resolve the issues...
15:47Mr. Parker failed to resolve the issues...
15:48Mr. Parker failed to resolve the issues...
15:49Mr. Parker failed to resolve the issues...
15:50Mr. Parker failed to resolve the issues...
15:51Mr. Parker failed to resolve the issues...
15:52Mr. Parker failed to resolve the issues...
15:53Mr. Parker failed to resolve the issues...
15:54Mr. Parker failed to resolve the issues...
15:55Mr. Parker failed to resolve the issues...
15:56Mr. Parker failed to resolve the issues...
15:57Mr. Parker failed to resolve the issues...
15:58Mr. Parker failed to resolve the issues...
15:59Mr. Parker failed to resolve the issues...
16:00Mr. Parker failed to resolve the issues...
16:01Mr. Parker failed to resolve the issues...
16:02Mr. Parker failed to resolve the issues...
16:03Mr. Parker failed to resolve the issues...
16:04Mr. Parker failed to resolve the issues...
16:05masters about Horizon.
16:10Year after year...
16:15He advised them not to disclose problems with the system.
16:20Here's what he said in 2013 when the post office was planning to admit it had mixed up.
16:25Different postmasters accounts.
16:28In my view...
16:30This is a dangerous admission.
16:33I don't think we ever want to expressly document...
16:35He meant this.
16:40It's so unbelievable.
16:45Integrity of that there.
16:50I don't even know what to say to that.
16:54I'm disgusted.
16:55I'm absolutely disgusted at that.
17:00In 2016, Mr.
17:05Parsons went further.
17:07He advised the post office to withhold an...
17:10important document from postmasters.
17:14The guidelines...
17:15used by the security team on how to investigate suspected theft by postmasters.
17:20For now, we'll do what we can to avoid disclosure.
17:25of these guidelines.
17:26And try to do so in a way that looks legitimate.
17:30However, we are ultimately withholding a key document.
17:36This document about the investigations guidelines...
17:39This document about the investigations guidelines...
17:40could have been helpful to sub postmasters, right?
17:42Yeah.
17:43So, it's not just a question of...
17:45society here, is it?
17:46You're really doing some harm to some people.
17:48Yeah.
17:49You're withholding evidence which will help your...
17:50proponents case.
17:51They should be disclosing those documents promptly.
17:53And what they say is we're going to resist...
17:55disclosure.
17:56We don't have any grounds.
17:57We'll do that until we get found out.
18:00That's improper.
18:03Mr. Parsons told the inquiry...
18:05his advice was very poorly worded...
18:07and he regretted sending it.
18:10His spokesperson told Panorama he'd always acted on...
18:15his client's instructions...
18:16and in accordance with his professional obligations.
18:19He...
18:20...
18:21...
18:22...
18:23...
18:24...
18:25...
18:26...
18:27...
18:28...
18:29Will you apologise to seem a misery in person, Mr. Jenkins?
18:34Would you like to meet her?
18:35Gareth Jenkins worked at Fujitsu and was the IT...
18:39expert in several of the prosecutions.
18:41It was his evidence that led to some...
18:44wrongful convictions.
18:45.
18:49He repeatedly told the courts that Horizon was robust.
18:53.
18:54even though he knew there were errors and bugs.
18:57.
18:58.
18:59.
18:59The prosecutions, especially for theft...
19:02were wholly reliant.
19:03.
19:04...
19:05...
19:09that were 100% reliant on the reliability and accuracy...
19:13of her own.
19:14...
19:15.
19:16.
19:17...
19:18.
19:19Gareth Jenkins...
19:20.
19:21.
19:22.
19:23.
19:24.
19:25.
19:26.
19:27.
19:28.
19:29.
19:30.
19:31.
19:32.
19:33.
19:34.
19:35.
19:36.
19:37.
19:38.
19:39.
19:40.
19:41.
19:42.
19:43.
19:19also misled the courts about remote access. In this witness statement,
19:24he said there were no cases where external systems could manipulate branch
19:29without the users in the branch being aware and authorising the transactions.
19:34He made it sound like remote access wasn't possible without...
19:39A computer system that couldn't do remote...
19:44Is that a normal computer system? Of course they can access it.
19:49They have to fix things. So when they were saying it wasn't possible...
19:54We sort of thought, that's a load of rubbish.
19:59At the inquiry, Gareth Jenkins made a surprising admission.
20:04He had always known remote access was possible without postmark...
20:09He asked us knowing.
20:11When did you discover that this could be done?
20:14I always knew it could be done, but I didn't realise it was being done until 2018.
20:19Okay, so you always realised that it could be done?
20:22Yes.
20:24Right from year 2000?
20:25Yes.
20:29So Gareth Jenkins gave the court the impression remote access wasn't possible when he...
20:34He knew it was.
20:35He knew it was.
20:36G.O.Y.
20:37G.O.Y.
20:38We came back with the wording...
20:39guilty
20:42Well, I was heading
20:44in front of me, my husband, my children
20:46and all pregnant that time
20:49But I thought it would Music
20:51Because my husband
20:53allowed me to
20:55and to sit and good
20:57And it's good
20:59and was for me
21:02You're the only one
21:03I never used for
21:05It happened in my store
21:07but it was great
21:09and I and
21:13would be so sad
21:15I am still
21:17It was heartbreaking.
21:19He had each and everything in his country.
21:22He could have stopped my trial.
21:24He could have stopped sending me to prison.
21:27But I decided not to do so.
21:32Gareth Jenkins told the inquiry he'd made a...
21:37...genuine error in his witness statement.
21:39He said his description of Horizon as...
21:42...robust didn't mean it was infallible.
21:47Mr Jenkins' lawyers told Panorama he'd given hundreds of papers...
21:52...pages of evidence to the inquiry.
21:54And it would not be right to comment on the same matter.
21:57...that the inquiry is still considering.
22:02.
22:07Did you tell the truth this time?
22:09Tell the truth!
22:11There's one person...
22:12...many blame for the cover-up.
22:14Former chief executive...
22:17...polar venels.
22:21I fully...
22:22...we accept now...
22:25...that the post office...
22:27...he's me.
22:32I'm incredibly sorry...
22:35...that...
22:36...that...
22:37...happened to those people...
22:38...and to so many others.
22:43Her evidence of the public inquiry...
22:46...has been widely...
22:47...criticised.
22:49I honestly can't remember...
22:50...what it was at the time.
22:51I...
22:52...in terms of this particular email.
22:54I simply don't recall.
22:55I...
22:56I don't...
22:57...whether I did or I didn't.
22:59She said she couldn't remember...
23:01...or didn't recall...
23:02...more than a hundred times.
23:05I...
23:06...don't recall...
23:07...but if you say so, yes.
23:08I don't recall.
23:09I don't recall.
23:10I don't recall.
23:11I can't remember that.
23:12I...
23:13...genuinely, I don't recall.
23:14I don't recall it.
23:15That I...
23:16...that I...
23:17...that I can't remember.
23:21I didn't believe...
23:22...anything she said really.
23:24I just felt it was calculated.
23:27It didn't feel genuine.
23:29It didn't...
23:30...feel heartfelt at all.
23:32How come CEO's not responsible?
23:34In which...
23:35...dictionary...
23:36...which organisation...
23:37...to say is...
23:38...the CEO's not responsible?
23:40It was all crocodiles.
23:42There's no acceptance...
23:44...what they have done wrong knowingly.
23:47...the CEO's not responsible, However...
23:48...the CEO's not responsible.
23:49...the CEO's not responsible.
23:50The CEO's not responsible for...
23:51...처리.
23:52...the CEO's not responsible.
23:53To destroy your own technology.
23:54That is a very good thing...
23:55...true.
23:56...as a very good thing.
23:57...to say every other community.
23:58You see...
23:59...rape, you see...
24:00...the CEO's not responsible...
24:01...but take a look at his...
24:02...to say...
24:03...to say a quickie.
24:04...the CEO's not responsible.
24:06and was due to be privatized.
24:11It's not the biggest privatization for a generation, so huge public...
24:16Interest, huge public scrutiny.
24:17And huge money at stake.
24:19Huge money at stake.
24:21By law, Royal Man...
24:26Royal Man had to publish all possible risks in the privatization prospectus.
24:31But Paula Venels had any mention of problems with Horizon...
24:36...remove from the document.
24:38She then sent an email saying, I have earned my...
24:41...to keep on this one, and listed it as one of her key achievements in her...
24:46...in appraisal.
24:49People, particularly Paula...
24:51...knew full well that it was a risk.
24:55That's why she was...
24:56...so proud of getting it removed.
24:58Should it have been removed?
24:59Of course not.
25:01The Horizon Risk was an...
25:06...existential risk.
25:07That sentence was removed from the prospectus because people...
25:11...understood it was potentially...
25:13...dynamite.
25:16... impatiently, the part of proper...
25:18... producing without mostly competing sometimes.
25:20They don't need any leverage but also...
25:21...and to be confused.
25:22Anything that comes between us, justс willing to reach a…
25:24... shadow, can you rejoice?
25:27Right now.
25:29And we are doing research...
25:30...fowl these people make plans effort for...
25:32...oh my son.
25:34The kyana greed, TOM, past afternoon...
25:36... Gobierno, yes, he's also ridiculous.
25:37Maybe he's extremely little.
25:39That dude is...
25:41We are very close, damn towards you.
25:43that? No, there isn't. And I don't know what's
25:48stage the board became aware of it.
25:53She told the inquiry she didn't understand how serious
25:58an issue it was, and that she relied on advice from others.
26:01It was a
26:03similar story with bugs in Horizon and remote access.
26:08The Venos was warned and failed to act.
26:13For seven years, Paula Venos ran an organization that tried to
26:17conceal
26:18the truth. Evidence that could have helped postmasters clear their
26:21names was hidden.
26:23And the public, parliament, and the courts were misled.
26:28So could she now face prosecution?
26:33I think ultimately, you can see
26:38signs that particularly Paula Venos and some others around her.
26:43We're working in ways which look suspicious, and that deserves, I
26:47think, a public trial.
26:48Paula Venos' lawyers told Panorama
26:53that it would be inappropriate to respond when the inquiry's work
26:56is ongoing, and
26:58and that she'd addressed many of the claims in her extensive written
27:01and or oral evidence.
27:03of the claims in her son, she's seen
27:05as a response in her family.
27:06Of course, her wife and her wife are being
27:08who is a mortal, and the point is
27:10that she'd be able to die into her life.
27:11But, she's still working.
27:12And the fact that she had to do
27:13is to take many small questions to help her so she's
27:15but she decided to take any small questions.
27:17And let her know,
27:18the client can expect that they couldn't
27:19be seen.
27:20And the client can expect it to act as a
27:22possibly a relief agent.
27:23Every student has been able to talk and
27:26the client can know
27:27that she's been a little bit
27:28and she has been able
27:31to see her to her.
27:08The inquiry will deliver its final report.
27:13Later this year.
27:16And the police have more than 100 officers.
27:18Investigating the post office scandal.
27:23But decisions on who might be charged are not expected until next year.
27:28Justice is still a long way off.
27:31And we need to keep...
27:33We need to keep telling people how bad it was.
27:38Postmasters want to see senior executives...
27:43They say it shouldn't be one law for them.
27:48And another for the bosses.
27:51A verbal warning in the slob...
27:53They're not going to be a problem.
27:54You can get the help on the wrist.
27:55This just doesn't do it.
27:56Yeah?
27:57There must be...
27:58There has to be...
27:58to be a deterrent and that deterrent must be strong enough.
28:03To make people not want to do it.
28:05I think they need to...
28:08be held accountable.
28:10They need...
28:12to answer.
28:13For what they'd done and why they'd done it.
28:18So many postmasters were unfairly prosecuted.
28:23Should some of those accused of being responsible
28:26now be in the dock?
28:28To be continued...
28:33On BBC's...
28:38The Baffling Tale of One of Scotland's Most Mysterious Disappearances.
28:42Listen to...
28:43Crime Next Door, The Vanishing Cyclist.
28:45Next here on BBC One, the series finale...
28:48of Lindley.
28:53The Baffling Tale of One of Scotland's Most Mysterious Disappearances.
28:57Thanks for joining us.
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