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00:00:15Hello, everybody, and you're all very welcome to another episode.
00:00:20I hope you enjoy what happens here over the next hour or so.
00:00:24To find out who our first guest is, let me hand you over to our emcee for the evening.
00:00:28And we'll be right back.
00:00:33Our first guest is Miss Alison Spittel.
00:00:38Hi, Tommy.
00:00:42Hi, Tommy.
00:00:43Hello.
00:00:43Hello there.
00:00:44How are you?
00:00:45Great now.
00:00:46You look fab and full of energy.
00:00:49Fred sacked off pretty quick there.
00:00:51You kind of bounced on there.
00:00:52He's very much no icon.
00:00:53He's not allowed to make eye contact, didn't he?
00:00:54He says your name and then he's gone.
00:00:55He's not allowed to make eye contact with the guests.
00:00:56Is he not?
00:00:57Has that been brought in?
00:00:58No.
00:00:59What incident brought that on?
00:01:00No, it's just a fear of what might happen as opposed to what has happened.
00:01:03Absolutely.
00:01:04Yeah, yeah.
00:01:05Look, we always must fear that.
00:01:06How are you?
00:01:07Good now.
00:01:08How's, are you still over?
00:01:08For those people who don't know you, I know you as a stand-up comic.
00:01:12Yeah.
00:01:13And that you moved to London.
00:01:15I did.
00:01:16Is the last I heard of you.
00:01:17So what's...
00:01:18Still there?
00:01:19Been happening since.
00:01:20Still there.
00:01:21Yeah.
00:01:22Living there now nearly five years.
00:01:23You've just in time for lockdown.
00:01:24Glorious to spend the lockdown in Camden.
00:01:27Mm.
00:01:28And...
00:01:28Yes.
00:01:29Still living there.
00:01:30Probably never going to come back to Ireland.
00:01:32And...
00:01:33And that's grand.
00:01:34You know?
00:01:35Like, you just have to...
00:01:36Like, I don't know.
00:01:37I think I left Ireland.
00:01:38And there was a part of me going,
00:01:40Oh, maybe I'll come back.
00:01:41But like, the longer I'm gone, the longer...
00:01:43I'm not coming back.
00:01:44And that's...
00:01:45That's cool.
00:01:46Do you know?
00:01:47What's the attraction of England?
00:01:48For you?
00:01:49Eh...
00:01:50The attraction of England is like...
00:01:51Eh...
00:01:52Same amount of rent.
00:01:53You have to pay that you're in Dublin.
00:01:55And a bigger audience as well.
00:01:57And like...
00:01:58You know?
00:01:59I kind of had a TV series here.
00:02:01And...
00:02:02I was...
00:02:03Looking at how much I was making.
00:02:05And then...
00:02:06What the gigs I was doing.
00:02:07And I was like...
00:02:08I can't...
00:02:09I can't live in Ireland
00:02:10and do what I'm doing.
00:02:11Like, I'm not commercially...
00:02:13A viable...
00:02:15Not commercially...
00:02:16A big viable option...
00:02:17To live in Ireland.
00:02:18So...
00:02:19I have to live in England.
00:02:20And be myself.
00:02:21But like...
00:02:22Kind of just hope.
00:02:23And hopefully...
00:02:24Make a living from it.
00:02:25Because it's weird like...
00:02:26Like...
00:02:27Living in Ireland...
00:02:28And like...
00:02:29I was like...
00:02:30Famous enough to get a lift off people.
00:02:32Because people felt safe.
00:02:33They're like...
00:02:34She's off the telly.
00:02:35She's not gonna kill me.
00:02:36But...
00:02:37Couldn't afford a car.
00:02:38You know...
00:02:39That kind of thing.
00:02:40But I'm not saying it in a complaining way.
00:02:41It's just like...
00:02:42What's it?
00:02:43The way it is.
00:02:44How did the phrase...
00:02:45I'm not...
00:02:46A...
00:02:47Commercially viable...
00:02:48Option...
00:02:49Come to you.
00:02:50What does that mean?
00:02:51It just means...
00:02:52Like...
00:02:53I should be able to...
00:02:55I should be able to...
00:02:56Like...
00:02:57Because I'm doing club comedy.
00:02:58Every week that I'm not touring.
00:03:00Or...
00:03:01Like...
00:03:02I'm gigging four nights a week.
00:03:03Yeah.
00:03:03And...
00:03:04It's kind of like...
00:03:05To be a working comedian...
00:03:06The arse is falling...
00:03:07And...
00:03:08I'm...
00:03:08out of the working comedians industry, like when I go to clubs and I chat to other comedians.
00:03:13Their wives are doctors, their wives are psychologists. I feel like the NHS is propping up the...
00:03:18club comedy community, in England anyway. And then like in Ireland, like...
00:03:23there wasn't even a club circuit, you know, that you could rely on. So you were doing your...
00:03:28tours, you were like, if Artie gave you something that year, it was good. But like, I couldn't kind of...
00:03:33base my whole life on like whether I got a series in Artie or not.
00:03:38Because it's very unlikely each year, you know what I mean? It is the way...
00:03:43I didn't... Do you know what? I was excited about going on this. And I was like, I didn't know we could talk about that.
00:03:48But I'm like, I don't want to be like the harbinger of doom with comedy. But I can.
00:03:53Let's start with doom. Yeah, let's start with doom. Let's keep going. Yeah.
00:03:56Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it.
00:03:59Your appearance has changed a lot since the last time I saw you.
00:04:02Yeah, last week.
00:04:03Yeah.
00:04:04Yeah, I've lost weight. I've like... I've lost... I went on the jabs, the Mount Jarr...
00:04:08Is that like an Xenpic type thing? A Xenpic type thing. So like...
00:04:13two years ago, I nearly died. I had a thing called septicemia.
00:04:18which I got from cellulitis, which is like basically a nick got a...
00:04:23into my skin at some point. I think it was on the beach. And I got an infection in my blood.
00:04:28And then it took over my body. And it was like, my organs were starting to shut down. And the doctors...
00:04:33told me I was pre-diabetic as well. And they said, you have to lose weight. And I was like, right. And it was the first...
00:04:38first time I've ever tried to lose weight. Like actively tried because I saw being fat.
00:04:43as like rebellion. And I saw like... because like, especially being in comedians...
00:04:48in comedy. Like I would have people... say stuff to me. And I always felt like...
00:04:53it didn't matter how I look. And stuff like that. And so it didn't make me want to...
00:04:57change my appearance.
00:04:58and also...
00:04:59I definitely have a food addiction. Like I definitely kind of like...
00:05:03like... kind of like... fill... fill the hole, so to speak.
00:05:08with food.
00:05:09That thing about the...
00:05:10So it was like... they came hand in hand.
00:05:12So I remember...
00:05:13when...
00:05:14because the first way we... judge... people on stage is...
00:05:18probably physically.
00:05:19Yeah.
00:05:20And when I first saw you coming... you were a large lady.
00:05:22Yeah.
00:05:23and it was almost like...
00:05:24Oh...
00:05:25okay.
00:05:26You can say fat Tommy.
00:05:27Well...
00:05:28Yeah.
00:05:29Okay.
00:05:30It's fair.
00:05:31I don't mean it like... it's not like... anyone can...
00:05:33say fat.
00:05:34Fat is not like... I don't know.
00:05:35Why... why do you feel like you need to say large?
00:05:38Uh...
00:05:39It sounds like I'm attacking you.
00:05:40I'm not...
00:05:41I think large is a...
00:05:42uh...
00:05:43phonetically a nicer word.
00:05:44It's a nicer word, yeah.
00:05:45Yeah.
00:05:46Fat is a bit...
00:05:47Fat is a bit...
00:05:48It sounds like...
00:05:48Fat sounds like slap.
00:05:49It does.
00:05:50It's very...
00:05:51Large is a kind of...
00:05:52You can relax into it.
00:05:53Yeah.
00:05:53Yeah.
00:05:54It's like a chaise lounge, isn't it?
00:05:55Large is a chaise lounge.
00:05:56So you get...
00:05:57There was...
00:05:58There was something...
00:05:59That you...
00:06:00It looked like...
00:06:02You...
00:06:03You...
00:06:04Were...
00:06:05There was a boldness in it...
00:06:08Or something...
00:06:09It was kind of a celebration...
00:06:12Yeah.
00:06:13Of what...
00:06:14You were.
00:06:15And I...
00:06:16That's...
00:06:17I'm not...
00:06:18Maybe...
00:06:18Making a lot of sense of that.
00:06:19But I...
00:06:20That was my sense of it.
00:06:21Alright.
00:06:22Here we go.
00:06:23She's...
00:06:23She's...
00:06:24She's big.
00:06:25She's here.
00:06:26And she's not apologising for it.
00:06:27Yeah.
00:06:28I like that.
00:06:29Thanks, Tommy.
00:06:30I think that's what...
00:06:31I don't know.
00:06:32Like...
00:06:33I appreciate that that's what you...
00:06:33I don't know.
00:06:34And like...
00:06:35I feel like it was...
00:06:36It's weird.
00:06:37Because it's like...
00:06:38There's kind of...
00:06:38Two things, isn't there?
00:06:39There's like...
00:06:40That's the celebration and also...
00:06:41It's like...
00:06:42It would be silly...
00:06:43For me to deny that it isn't also...
00:06:45Some sort of like...
00:06:46Coping mechanism is the wrong...
00:06:48We're a defence mechanism maybe.
00:06:49I definitely like...
00:06:51Especially...
00:06:52Like I...
00:06:53I would wear...
00:06:53Mad clothes as well.
00:06:54I would.
00:06:55I'd wear mad clothes.
00:06:56And like...
00:06:57I did get told...
00:06:58I was like...
00:06:59I got told by men who I didn't fancy...
00:07:01That...
00:07:02That...
00:07:03I was like...
00:07:03I would be fuckable if I wasn't fat or whatever.
00:07:06But this was all stuff that wasn't like...
00:07:08I was like, okay, Grant, but that's not...
00:07:13You know what I mean?
00:07:14Who says that?
00:07:16You'd be surprised, Tommy.
00:07:18You'd be surprised.
00:07:20Like...
00:07:21Men!
00:07:22Like...
00:07:23A man in his fifties...
00:07:25I don't know why they do.
00:07:28I think...
00:07:30I think people think as well, if you're fat, that you're stupid.
00:07:33Because you know how not to be fat and yet you don't do that.
00:07:37And you're like...
00:07:38Life would be easier if he was, in fact.
00:07:40So it must be like an intelligence thing.
00:07:42And like...
00:07:43I definitely got told about get on Teddy that it would be easier if I was thinner.
00:07:48And it would be said candidly.
00:07:50And it would be said in a way that's like, I'm pissed off with the system.
00:07:53But this is how it is.
00:07:54Oh my God.
00:07:55I tell you, Alison...
00:07:57It's...
00:07:59Annoyed me.
00:08:00You look annoyed.
00:08:01Every...
00:08:02Yeah.
00:08:03I can see it in your body.
00:08:04It's every week.
00:08:05There are women on this show.
00:08:08Telling me things about men...
00:08:13Men's behaviour.
00:08:14And it's...
00:08:16Sickening.
00:08:17Yeah.
00:08:18And I...
00:08:19I...
00:08:20It makes me so...
00:08:23Sad as well.
00:08:24I...
00:08:25I don't...
00:08:26Understand what's happening with...
00:08:28Men that they would say this kind of...
00:08:32Nonsense.
00:08:33Anyway.
00:08:34I think it's like a thing of like...
00:08:36I don't know.
00:08:37You can psychologically...
00:08:38Analyse like...
00:08:39Why people are like...
00:08:40Mean about it or whatever.
00:08:41Like...
00:08:42Like...
00:08:43I'm very...
00:08:43Lucky...
00:08:44In the way that like...
00:08:45I was never really interested in anyone...
00:08:48Romantically.
00:08:49And then like...
00:08:50Er...
00:08:51Then...
00:08:52Then...
00:08:53I did.
00:08:54A long-term relationship.
00:08:55But...
00:08:56Like...
00:08:57All of my fat women friends would...
00:08:58Be like...
00:08:59How did you get someone to go out with you?
00:09:00Like...
00:09:01How did you get them to...
00:09:02Like...
00:09:03So we...
00:09:03Weird.
00:09:04And they would tell me like...
00:09:05That...
00:09:06The fellas that they're seeing...
00:09:07They'll all be hugging and all...
00:09:08They'd never...
00:09:09Bring them to weddings...
00:09:10Or...
00:09:11Anything.
00:09:12So it's like a weird kind of like...
00:09:13I don't...
00:09:13Feel sorry for the fellas in that situation.
00:09:15Like...
00:09:16Imagine living your life...
00:09:17Over like...
00:09:18The opinion of someone who probably doesn't care.
00:09:21Do you know what I mean?
00:09:22Like...
00:09:23It's just my...
00:09:23What people do to avoid a slagging...
00:09:25Is like...
00:09:26They...
00:09:27I think they change their lives so...
00:09:28So much.
00:09:29And like...
00:09:30Slagging is not that bad.
00:09:31I get slagged all the time.
00:09:32It's actually grand.
00:09:33I'd rather be...
00:09:33Slagged...
00:09:34And live my life.
00:09:35So I have lost weight...
00:09:37To go back...
00:09:38To that.
00:09:39But like...
00:09:40I was really fucking scared.
00:09:41I could not stop eating.
00:09:42And I did not want to die.
00:09:43But I couldn't stop it.
00:09:45So then I was like...
00:09:46Really...
00:09:47Really...
00:09:48Really scared.
00:09:49Yeah.
00:09:50I had to...
00:09:51So I had sleep apnea.
00:09:52Oh yeah.
00:09:53So I had to...
00:09:53Get a sleep apnea machine.
00:09:54Which is embarrassing.
00:09:55That was embarrassing.
00:09:56That was like...
00:09:57I was like...
00:09:58Nothing sexier than putting a mask on.
00:10:00Stop, Darth Vader.
00:10:01Stop.
00:10:02Oh my...
00:10:03Oh my god.
00:10:04Goodnight, love.
00:10:05Like you're...
00:10:06Like you're a fighter pilot.
00:10:07You know?
00:10:08But what are you fighting death?
00:10:08When you're sleeping.
00:10:09Do you know what I mean?
00:10:11And it always like...
00:10:12If you have a...
00:10:13Wish me luck.
00:10:14Wish me luck.
00:10:15Wish me luck.
00:10:16I'm gone.
00:10:18And it's...
00:10:19Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:10:20And it's always like...
00:10:21I think the...
00:10:22Getting the machine is...
00:10:23More for your partner.
00:10:24So they're not worried about you.
00:10:25That you're dying in your sleep.
00:10:26Because you always sound like...
00:10:27You're gonna die in your sleep.
00:10:28Yeah.
00:10:28So that was bad.
00:10:29And that was like...
00:10:30Because it's just like...
00:10:33It's...
00:10:34It's...
00:10:35If you...
00:10:36It's a weird thing.
00:10:37It's like...
00:10:38I am losing weight.
00:10:39I am feeling better about myself.
00:10:41Because I like running now.
00:10:43I didn't like running before.
00:10:44My hobbies before were deliveries.
00:10:46Now my hobby is like...
00:10:48Yoga and running.
00:10:49But I don't think I'm morally...
00:10:51Any worse back...
00:10:52You know what I mean?
00:10:53Totally, yeah, yeah.
00:10:54It's a weird thing to like...
00:10:55Admit the stuff that...
00:10:56Admit even is a weird word.
00:10:57But to say...
00:10:58It's stuff that like...
00:10:59It's different in your life now.
00:11:00And I feel so defensive of the person I was to.
00:11:03Because I just think like...
00:11:05She was...
00:11:08Like...
00:11:09Worthy of like...
00:11:10Respect.
00:11:11Hmm?
00:11:12I don't know why...
00:11:13I'm crying.
00:11:14But I am.
00:11:15But fucking...
00:11:16It's just like...
00:11:18I'm gonna get a tissue.
00:11:19I have a tissue here.
00:11:22Beautiful.
00:11:26These are lovely and stuffed as well.
00:11:27Very good.
00:11:28Very good.
00:11:29Very good.
00:11:30Alright.
00:11:31Just that we sort of...
00:11:33I laugh now.
00:11:34You should eat them.
00:11:35Should I, yeah?
00:11:37Eat your teeth.
00:11:38Cheers.
00:11:39So I'm over the whole food thing.
00:11:40Yeah.
00:11:43Erm...
00:11:44But...
00:11:45I'll reach out a bit.
00:11:47But like...
00:11:48Being fat.
00:11:49Just the...
00:11:51The...
00:11:52Idea...
00:11:54That the person that you are now...
00:11:56Mmm...
00:11:57Is better than the...
00:11:58Is not the person that you were two years ago.
00:12:00And that's...
00:12:01Can you tell me about that...
00:12:04Perception of yourself...
00:12:05Perception of yourself that you are different now
00:12:08When I was fatter and I didn't want to lose weight, I didn't think about being fat because I was like, well, it's.
00:12:13It's me and I exist and there's other things that I need to think about and there's other things I need to do.
00:12:18I'm not going to change this. So why am I thinking about it?
00:12:23Now that I'm changing it, now that I'm changing my appearance and I see how differently.
00:12:28I get treated because of my appearance. It kind of like, kind of makes me feel like.
00:12:33A better word than feelings.
00:12:38I'm sorry. I think like more angrier for myself a few years ago.
00:12:43Now. I'm more defensive of myself now.
00:12:47How do you feel?
00:12:48When you look back on.
00:12:49Photos of me being fatter.
00:12:51Yeah.
00:12:52Do you know that.
00:12:53That's interesting. I feel fine. I go, sometimes I look at it and go, Jesus, I was very fat.
00:12:58Do you know?
00:12:59But like, that's.
00:13:01But I was.
00:13:02So.
00:13:03So.
00:13:04Like I have to like.
00:13:05It'd be weird to me.
00:13:07It would be.
00:13:08It would be weird to me never to share pictures of myself from years ago.
00:13:11Cause it's just like.
00:13:12Like.
00:13:13I'm so.
00:13:13So proud of myself.
00:13:14Like.
00:13:15I don't hate myself.
00:13:16And that makes me.
00:13:17And I know.
00:13:18Like.
00:13:19Definitely.
00:13:20Like.
00:13:21Why I became.
00:13:22Yeah.
00:13:23You know.
00:13:24Definitely.
00:13:25Why I became fat.
00:13:26Like.
00:13:27I was fat when I was a kid.
00:13:28And people would be concerned.
00:13:28And stuff.
00:13:29And that made me.
00:13:30And definitely.
00:13:31There was a thing of like.
00:13:32You.
00:13:33You won't be attractive.
00:13:34If you're fat.
00:13:35And I was like.
00:13:37It's.
00:13:38Really.
00:13:38Kind of.
00:13:39Like.
00:13:40It irked me.
00:13:41To be.
00:13:42Who.
00:13:43Who would say that?
00:13:43to you?
00:13:44Erm.
00:13:45I mean.
00:13:46Who says it to me now.
00:13:47Would be like.
00:13:48Online.
00:13:48It would.
00:13:49It would be online.
00:13:50It would be.
00:13:51Like.
00:13:52There was this fella once.
00:13:53He was like.
00:13:54So it was on this.
00:13:55TV show on RT.
00:13:56For.
00:13:57We were in Morocco.
00:13:58And the fella opened the conversation with her.
00:14:00I've just had a wank over you.
00:14:01And I was like.
00:14:02I don't.
00:14:03Maybe.
00:14:08.
00:14:08Yeah.
00:14:13She's my real name and I'm sorry about that.
00:14:18I'm ashamed of myself, no.
00:14:23Yeah, I know.
00:14:24Well, you weren't at the time.
00:14:26But, so he messaged me.
00:14:28And I was just having the crack.
00:14:30And I was like, ah, you can't be saying that.
00:14:32And I said, and I was like,
00:14:33so his profile picture was a picture of his son.
00:14:36So I was like, I like, so it was a chat.
00:14:38It looked like a child was talking to me.
00:14:39It's like, is this a child or is it, you know?
00:14:41And he goes, ah,
00:14:43fuck off, you fat bitch.
00:14:44And he went into all this big, like,
00:14:46it went from, I,
00:14:48nothing.
00:14:49Like, I say he wasn't even dry.
00:14:51And he was calling me a fat bitch.
00:14:53Like, do you know?
00:14:54Like, it was mad how like,
00:14:55it went from quick, from that to that.
00:14:58Yeah.
00:14:59What do you think about being on stage?
00:15:01What's your, do you have a,
00:15:03do you have an understanding of it?
00:15:05I think.
00:15:06Or a desire?
00:15:07I think.
00:15:08I think I feel powerful.
00:15:10I don't think I like.
00:15:13I don't know.
00:15:14I think it's like,
00:15:15I felt a bit like through,
00:15:17throughout my teenage life.
00:15:18and my childhood.
00:15:20I was a bit like a rodeo clown.
00:15:22Like, I would come out.
00:15:23and tell jokes after like,
00:15:24a big incident.
00:15:25Or something like that.
00:15:26To make everyone kind of feel.
00:15:28better.
00:15:29And the feeling I got,
00:15:30doing my first gig,
00:15:31was like,
00:15:32I've never felt it.
00:15:33since.
00:15:34Never will.
00:15:35But it was incredible.
00:15:36It was like,
00:15:37this adrenaline.
00:15:38And I,
00:15:38say the gig was shite.
00:15:39You think back,
00:15:40I think back of the jokes that I did.
00:15:41And I'm like,
00:15:42that can't.
00:15:43not be good.
00:15:44Yeah.
00:15:45But I felt powerful.
00:15:46Like,
00:15:47I genuinely felt like.
00:15:48I felt like,
00:15:49no one could hurt me up there.
00:15:51And I could just express myself.
00:15:53freely.
00:15:54So that's what I did.
00:15:55And I don't feel,
00:15:56any other part of my life do I feel.
00:15:58that.
00:15:59But also,
00:16:00it comes very naturally to you.
00:16:01You're a natural.
00:16:03truth teller and underminer at the same time.
00:16:08Yeah.
00:16:09So you say something,
00:16:10and then you whip it.
00:16:11You destroy it again.
00:16:12So that.
00:16:13that's not a,
00:16:14that seems effortless.
00:16:16That seems like a natural way for you.
00:16:18I'm really proud of the past two shows that I've done.
00:16:21People have gone,
00:16:22there's so many gags in them.
00:16:23And I'm like,
00:16:24yeah,
00:16:25because I intentionally,
00:16:26well,
00:16:27I intentionally wanted to say.
00:16:28like,
00:16:29it was like the story I had,
00:16:30it was all about like,
00:16:31do you know what it was all about?
00:16:33the show called wet.
00:16:34And it was about like,
00:16:35aquaerobics and sexual coercion.
00:16:37And it was.
00:16:38it was going to be like,
00:16:39it's just observational comedy.
00:16:41I,
00:16:42I just.
00:16:43Yeah.
00:16:43But it was craft that I didn't know I could do.
00:16:49Hmm.
00:16:50You're fearless,
00:16:51Alison.
00:16:52You're.
00:16:53Uh,
00:16:54and there's a wildness and an honesty.
00:16:57And.
00:16:58and a charm.
00:16:59Hmm.
00:17:00To your stand up.
00:17:01And I'm.
00:17:03delighted to hear that you're committed to the craft of writing jokes.
00:17:07Cause.
00:17:08that coupled with your.
00:17:11perception.
00:17:12Mm hmm.
00:17:13So.
00:17:14And.
00:17:15You.
00:17:16You.
00:17:17You.
00:17:19You.
00:17:20You.
00:17:21You.
00:17:22You.
00:17:23You.
00:17:24You.
00:17:25You.
00:17:26You.
00:17:27You.
00:17:28You.
00:17:31You.
00:17:32You.
00:17:33You.
00:17:34You.
00:17:35I was originally going to be called Fat Bitch.
00:17:37I wanted to call her Fat Bitch.
00:17:40But the Edinburgh Fringe were like,
00:17:42we can't put that in a poster.
00:17:43And I was like, well, what about Fat Bitch?
00:17:44And they were like...
00:17:45No.
00:17:50I was like, no.
00:17:51And so I've called it Big.
00:17:54So it's a youth...
00:17:55It's a mythmistic thing.
00:17:56But it's all about like...
00:17:58It's called I've Got It Big.
00:17:59It's called...
00:18:00Big.
00:18:01Just Big.
00:18:02Big.
00:18:03Nice euphemism.
00:18:04It's a cute little thing.
00:18:05Thank you so much for coming on to the show.
00:18:08It's been such a pleasure talking to you.
00:18:09I know, but...
00:18:10Oh my God, it's been great.
00:18:11It's been great.
00:18:12Oh my God.
00:18:13And I only cried a few times.
00:18:15Thanks so much.
00:18:16Thanks Alison.
00:18:20Thanks.
00:18:21Thanks.
00:18:25Thanks.
00:18:26Thanks.
00:18:30Well, welcome back to the second half, everybody.
00:18:33Freddie, who's next?
00:18:34Tommy.
00:18:35Our next guest is...
00:18:36Joe Kerrigan.
00:18:40We are together.
00:18:41We'll be together.
00:18:44Bye.
00:18:45You're walking on like a cowboy.
00:18:50I have something to tell you.
00:18:52Do you?
00:18:53Neil, I'm on sale show.
00:18:55Time on sale, Ella.
00:18:58Or I should say perhaps.
00:19:00I am here on behalf of themselves, the good people, the other world.
00:19:05Sit down there now.
00:19:06I will.
00:19:08Now I know where I know...
00:19:10I know your name from.
00:19:12I have some books.
00:19:14Have you?
00:19:15At home that you've written and I can't remember what they are.
00:19:20There would have been old ways, old secrets, Breton laws.
00:19:26Irish fairy forts, portals to the past.
00:19:29A few others as well.
00:19:30But those were the ones mostly that were in the field I'm chasing at the moment.
00:19:34Which is bringing back...
00:19:35our old culture, our old beliefs, our old ways.
00:19:38The way we were for thousands of years.
00:19:40millennia.
00:19:41When we had our own beliefs, our own druids, our own spirits.
00:19:46Tell us about the Breton laws.
00:19:49We should never have gone.
00:19:50Got rid of them.
00:19:51Yeah.
00:19:52Tommy, we should never have got rid of these.
00:19:53They were evolved out of nature.
00:19:55They were created by the people, for the people.
00:19:58They weren't imposed on us by somebody.
00:20:00John High who said this is the book and you're going to follow us.
00:20:02Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:20:03We started when we were communities in Ireland.
00:20:05back in ancient times.
00:20:06We got together in our little community in our village and somebody did something...
00:20:11You know, you let your pig out of the garden and you trampled my garden.
00:20:13And the people...
00:20:14That shouldn't happen.
00:20:15So they worked out a plan that if you did that, then you would have to pay...
00:20:20You might have to give me one of your pigs or...
00:20:23And then they would make a rule that it didn't...
00:20:25That shouldn't happen again.
00:20:26And you had to mend your fences also.
00:20:27So everything that's happened has went wrong.
00:20:30Or that went well.
00:20:31You made a law to go with it.
00:20:32So it evolved out of natural, normal...
00:20:35Living.
00:20:36So stuff like...
00:20:37Say we could go to the extreme now, say for murder.
00:20:40If you killed your brother or...
00:20:43A neighbour...
00:20:44It was not...
00:20:45We didn't...
00:20:45We did not go in for killing in return.
00:20:47I mean, when you think about it, what sense...
00:20:50This is there.
00:20:51I mean, you kill my husband and I immediately have you killed what?
00:20:55Is that going to...
00:20:56What good is that going to do to anybody?
00:20:57Yeah.
00:20:58There am I, without bereft, without anything.
00:21:00So you would punish...
00:21:01You would have to pay the honour price for my husband, which would be hefty.
00:21:05And you would also have to pay recompense.
00:21:07And you would probably be ruined.
00:21:09And you would...
00:21:10In the future, be at the lowest level.
00:21:11Having to work your way to just...
00:21:13To live.
00:21:14There was a punishment...
00:21:15For people who had really...
00:21:17Not only had you killed my husband, but you weren't even sorry for it.
00:21:20And refused to be sorry.
00:21:21Yeah.
00:21:22You would be put beyond the ninth wave.
00:21:25You're put into a boat without oars or provisions.
00:21:28And you're sent beyond the ninth wave.
00:21:30Which is further than the tide could bring you back in.
00:21:33And you are left to the...
00:21:35The gods to decide what to do with you.
00:21:37If you came ashore in another land, they could kill you.
00:21:40Oh, wow.
00:21:41God.
00:21:42Or they might put you there.
00:21:43But you could not come back.
00:21:44And it would be up to the...
00:21:45The gods to decide what to do with you.
00:21:47Because we believed in our nature spirits being...
00:21:50Stronger than we were.
00:21:51And they would decide.
00:21:52It was not for us to take...
00:21:53To leave.
00:21:54You might have decided.
00:21:55Yeah, yeah.
00:21:55Decided to take someone's life.
00:21:56Yeah.
00:21:57But it is not for us to decide to take it from you.
00:21:59We had so...
00:22:00Too many sensible laws.
00:22:02Tell me about laws in terms of marriage.
00:22:05Like was there...
00:22:06Oh, that was great.
00:22:07Women.
00:22:08And divorce and stuff.
00:22:09Yes.
00:22:10Women were a lot better.
00:22:10As you probably know.
00:22:11In ancient Ireland.
00:22:12Before we had these rather...
00:22:15More stringent rules coming from other countries.
00:22:17Women were equally, if not more important than men.
00:22:19They were...
00:22:20Honoured for what they could do.
00:22:21They had the miracle of bringing forth children.
00:22:23They were also considered to be...
00:22:25Rather more sensible in an argument.
00:22:27This is probably something you wouldn't agree with me about.
00:22:30But the...
00:22:31Women...
00:22:32When people got married, they could get married for a year and a...
00:22:35Today.
00:22:36Which is sensible when you think of it, Tommy.
00:22:37Yeah.
00:22:38I mean, if...
00:22:39How do you know if you're going to like...
00:22:40Someone in the years' time.
00:22:41There might be great lusts or great ideas.
00:22:42But you don't know if you're going to like them or not.
00:22:43Yeah.
00:22:44You would...
00:22:45Just try it out for a year and a day.
00:22:48And if it didn't work out, you came back and you...
00:22:50Then fasted.
00:22:51And no problem.
00:22:52Nothing at all.
00:22:53If children had occurred in the meantime...
00:22:55There was no shame to that.
00:22:56The children went with the mother.
00:22:58And there was none of this nonsense.
00:22:59Ah, right.
00:23:00Okay.
00:23:00Okay.
00:23:01And I heard this beautiful phrase as well in one of the old Irish stories.
00:23:04Um...
00:23:05About a couple who were pledging themselves to one another.
00:23:09And the man...
00:23:10Said to the woman, which I think should replace...
00:23:13The...
00:23:14The woman said to the woman, which I think should replace...
00:23:15The...
00:23:15Catholic wedding verse.
00:23:17He said...
00:23:18For as long...
00:23:19For as long as...
00:23:20For as long as...
00:23:20As you want me, I'm yours.
00:23:22Oh, I like that.
00:23:23Isn't that beautiful?
00:23:24I think that's a...
00:23:25Beautiful way of putting it.
00:23:26Um...
00:23:27And the Christianity has a lot to answer for with its rules.
00:23:29Yeah.
00:23:30And the Christianity has a lot to answer for with its rules.
00:23:30And its regulations.
00:23:31It wasn't the one we had when we had our own people.
00:23:34But you could get divorced or...
00:23:35And they were married also, even if you had been married for years.
00:23:36Yeah.
00:23:37And there were some strict rules against men.
00:23:40I'm not sure I can put it on the show here.
00:23:42Of all the shows.
00:23:45On this one.
00:23:46All right.
00:23:47Well, if you became rather too.
00:23:50Gross in fact for.
00:23:53Indulging in normal happily.
00:23:54Can you be.
00:23:55bliss, I could divorce you. Wow. Well, you could.
00:24:00It was practical. Yeah, it sounds, any of the laws that I hear about this, this.
00:24:05They seem to have more soul in them or something, or more sense.
00:24:07They have more reality in them, more practicality.
00:24:10The laws were to care for everybody, and there were strict rules governing how you could.
00:24:15The thing was, you didn't take more out of the earth than you could.
00:24:20You gave back to it.
00:24:23Does, does our connection...
00:24:25Now, with those old laws and those old ways...
00:24:30of seeing our relations to one another, does the link seem quite...
00:24:35weak.
00:24:36It seems desperately weak.
00:24:37We've got so used to English laws and the...
00:24:40the way things are imposed on us, that we don't go with the old ones.
00:24:44I mean, women...
00:24:45women's role, for example, has never been the same since...
00:24:48since they came...
00:24:49No, we don't have...
00:24:50I don't think we did, but we should.
00:24:51We're rather like having old religions or old beliefs.
00:24:54The very least we could do.
00:24:55is know about our Brehon laws, because they were ours, and they came naturally from...
00:25:00our people, and they make sense of our life and our world.
00:25:05Was there opposition to Brehon law from the church, do you think?
00:25:10Yes.
00:25:11When Christianity came galloping over here from Rome...
00:25:15that it was Roman Catholicism.
00:25:16It was not...
00:25:17It's original founder, I imagine, was a very gentle man who...
00:25:20wanted people to love each other.
00:25:21By the time it got to Rome and they got their hands on it, it had turned into a pretty vicious...
00:25:25religion.
00:25:26And naturally they wanted to get rid of it.
00:25:28They didn't want the power of the Brehuns at saying things.
00:25:30They wanted the priests to be.
00:25:31The priests were to be the new Druids, the new Brehuns.
00:25:33But of course priests don't know any...
00:25:35They don't know anything except the liturgy and the church.
00:25:37They don't know anything about...
00:25:38Druids would have spent a lot of time to...
00:25:40Dozens of years, 20 or 30 years, learning all the different things, all the old ways.
00:25:45All the old legends, all the old laws, and they would have known about the stars and the moon.
00:25:50And exactly when the solstice was going to happen and the weather, well, the weather was going to change and they could.
00:25:55Foretell things by using a wren. It was lovely using a wren to foretell things.
00:26:00The Romans used to do that. They'd cut a bird in half and look at his entrails.
00:26:04I mean, how helpful is that?
00:26:05So what was the thing with the wren then?
00:26:08The wren. The wren, the king of all birds.
00:26:10He could foretell. They would watch a wren.
00:26:13Maybe they kept tame ones.
00:26:14They'd bring him up.
00:26:15They'd put him somewhere on a stone and they'd see what he did.
00:26:18He would jump, you know, wren, they're very active.
00:26:20He would jump one way, he would jump another.
00:26:22He'd put his beak up this way, he'd put his beak that way.
00:26:24He'd fly over there.
00:26:25And they would say, aha, there's an enemy coming from the west.
00:26:28Or you can expect bad weather.
00:26:30Coming from the east tomorrow.
00:26:32They would use the wren to tell things.
00:26:34The raven also.
00:26:35He was a foreteller of things.
00:26:37In the same way they'd watch which way?
00:26:38They'd watch what they were doing.
00:26:40Then we all could have been able, you know, Tommy,
00:26:42to tell what the weather was going to do
00:26:43without watching some nice girl in.
00:26:45the studio.
00:26:46Yeah.
00:26:46What she gets, we would have been able to tell.
00:26:48Animals still care.
00:26:49Have you not noticed how dogs...
00:26:50..and cats know when it's going to rain
00:26:52or when there's a storm coming?
00:26:53Absolutely, yeah, yeah.
00:26:53Yeah, yeah.
00:26:54Well, we...
00:26:55We'd still have this if we had developed our skills more or...
00:26:59In the...
00:27:00Bits of old Irish mythology that I've read
00:27:03where, say, the...
00:27:05Romans are talking about the Celts.
00:27:08They say one of the things...
00:27:10is that, I mean, they're mad for arguments.
00:27:14Mad for fighting.
00:27:15Mad for singing.
00:27:17And not afraid to die.
00:27:20No, you wouldn't.
00:27:21It's rather like the Vikings going into Valhalla.
00:27:24You went into another...
00:27:25a world, a more beautiful world than this one.
00:27:27Where there is no...
00:27:28Where falls are not rain or hail.
00:27:30or any snow.
00:27:31And wherever wind blows loudly.
00:27:32A place where everyone is young and happy.
00:27:35People often wanted to go there.
00:27:37And that's what you get in some of the old legends.
00:27:39People who do go there.
00:27:40But they can't always come back.
00:27:41Yeah.
00:27:45I have a sense now that we're so afraid...
00:27:50of death and were so panicked about dying.
00:27:55It's the natural progression from this world.
00:27:59It's the next stage.
00:28:00The most natural thing going on.
00:28:02You move through this phase, through that phase...
00:28:04and then you move on.
00:28:05and go through the curtain and on to the next world.
00:28:08It's nature.
00:28:10is what I mean.
00:28:11If you spend your life
00:28:12watching Facebook and Twitter
00:28:14and just look...
00:28:15looking at television
00:28:16you don't think...
00:28:17you can't think there could be anything else.
00:28:19It's also...
00:28:19isn't it that...
00:28:20if you open your eyes
00:28:21to what's around you
00:28:22you see how much death there is?
00:28:24Yes.
00:28:24In the sense of...
00:28:25birds or insects or whatever
00:28:26and that it's so...
00:28:28it becomes much more normalised.
00:28:30Yes.
00:28:30And natural.
00:28:32It's natural.
00:28:32Natural is the word.
00:28:33It's nature.
00:28:34It's what's there.
00:28:35and what does happen.
00:28:37What do you...
00:28:39What do you...
00:28:40have great respect for?
00:28:43Nature.
00:28:44The poem.
00:28:45The power of nature.
00:28:46The power of...
00:28:46Call it a nature of gods if you like
00:28:48but I have a huge respect for nature.
00:28:50and how nature at times
00:28:52particularly nowadays
00:28:53is showing anger
00:28:54because...
00:28:55one of the strongest beliefs
00:28:56of our old ways
00:28:57with the old gods
00:28:58is that they cared for Ireland.
00:29:00You know...
00:29:00the tradition of the Tua de Dona
00:29:01and how the Celts came
00:29:02and cheated them
00:29:03and they went underground
00:29:04rather than leaving their land.
00:29:05and they stayed
00:29:05and they looked after it
00:29:07and they come forth
00:29:08to see they were looking after our land.
00:29:10and our way
00:29:11for god's sake
00:29:11our way
00:29:12they come out
00:29:14particularly at the time
00:29:15times a year
00:29:15when everything is thinnest
00:29:16the veil is thinnest.
00:29:18You get it at Søen
00:29:18you get it at Beoltan.
00:29:20You get it at the solstices
00:29:21you get it at Lunasa
00:29:22they come out
00:29:23and come around
00:29:24and see what...
00:29:25what it is that we're doing
00:29:26and if we're not caring
00:29:28for the earth
00:29:28and the sea
00:29:29and the water...
00:29:30around us
00:29:30they get angry
00:29:31and then they throw a strop
00:29:33and they throw a large...
00:29:35storm at us.
00:29:37Now...
00:29:37so...
00:29:39people...
00:29:40can hear that
00:29:41and think that all these things
00:29:43are defined...
00:29:45and separate
00:29:46that the two of the Danan
00:29:49are...
00:29:50separate thing
00:29:51from
00:29:52us
00:29:54who are...
00:29:55a separate thing
00:29:56from the land
00:29:57but
00:29:58my sense of it is that
00:30:00those images
00:30:02are just ways
00:30:03of talking about
00:30:04a...
00:30:05spirit
00:30:05that moves
00:30:06between the three
00:30:09between the three
00:30:10because
00:30:10it's in us too.
00:30:11Yeah.
00:30:11Have you not gone out
00:30:12into a wood
00:30:13and stood there at night
00:30:14and felt part of it?
00:30:15you know people laugh
00:30:17about tree huggers
00:30:17and things
00:30:18but there's a tree
00:30:19that's standing there
00:30:19that's been there
00:30:20for generations
00:30:21there's a spirit
00:30:22in the wood also
00:30:23and there's you
00:30:24you can let it into
00:30:25yourself
00:30:25and feel it
00:30:26and be part of it
00:30:27and never ever again
00:30:29break a branch
00:30:30of...
00:30:30off a tree
00:30:30casually
00:30:31Yeah
00:30:32What's your favourite
00:30:34thing to be doing?
00:30:35Wandering around
00:30:38by a fairy fort
00:30:39I think
00:30:40and thinking of the stories
00:30:42and legends
00:30:42that have gone around it
00:30:43What's your...
00:30:45sense of behaviour
00:30:46around a fairy fort?
00:30:48Respect
00:30:48you would not charge
00:30:50and...
00:30:50into someone's palace
00:30:51or into Aura Sanukta
00:30:52and come to that
00:30:52and say
00:30:53Hi I've come for tea
00:30:53where's the sugar?
00:30:55you would stand outside
00:30:56and wait to be admitted
00:30:57So...
00:30:58So from an irrational...
00:31:00in a way
00:31:00that's not a rational
00:31:02belief
00:31:03in terms of...
00:31:05It's irrational
00:31:06if you wish
00:31:06but I would hate
00:31:07to be rational
00:31:08all the time
00:31:08Is there no side
00:31:10to our...
00:31:10read?
00:31:10Yeah
00:31:11there is
00:31:11but what I'm asking
00:31:12is that
00:31:12so you're there
00:31:13in front of this
00:31:14fairy fort
00:31:15Yeah
00:31:16and
00:31:17like
00:31:19your sense of decorum
00:31:22your sense of
00:31:23what is proper behaviour
00:31:24Yes
00:31:25and what is not
00:31:26Who are you
00:31:29do you think
00:31:31like
00:31:32what's happening
00:31:33in...
00:31:34What's happening
00:31:34is that
00:31:34I'm entering
00:31:35another presence
00:31:36a place
00:31:37that has been
00:31:37powerful
00:31:38and
00:31:39I
00:31:39ask
00:31:40if I think
00:31:40I have a good reason
00:31:41for going into
00:31:42a fairy fort
00:31:43then I will
00:31:43I always said
00:31:43people don't go
00:31:44into a fairy fort
00:31:44but if I think
00:31:46I have a good reason
00:31:46there might be
00:31:47a lost child
00:31:47and they're
00:31:48a lost animal
00:31:48and you need to go
00:31:49into...
00:31:49get it
00:31:50or you may say
00:31:50may I come
00:31:51and share your space
00:31:52for a little while
00:31:53and you just ask
00:31:54politely
00:31:55Is it so difficult
00:31:57to be polite
00:31:58to the old ways
00:31:59what are
00:31:59the fairies
00:32:00do you think
00:32:00what are the fairy
00:32:02people
00:32:03what are the fairies
00:32:03what are
00:32:04do
00:32:04the good
00:32:04people
00:32:05the fairies
00:32:06is the word
00:32:07put on by the English
00:32:08in the 1890s
00:32:08it's a sort of denigrating
00:32:09ways
00:32:10now yeah
00:32:10the little things
00:32:11like little leprechauns
00:32:12little things
00:32:12but ours are very real
00:32:14gods
00:32:15the nature gods
00:32:16of Ireland
00:32:17who are in charge
00:32:18of everything
00:32:18that is to the well
00:32:19of Ireland
00:32:19being of our country
00:32:21the wells
00:32:22every form of water
00:32:23springs are magic
00:32:24water is
00:32:24magic wherever it goes
00:32:25to our seas
00:32:26to our mountains
00:32:28to our caves
00:32:29to our hills
00:32:29to our land
00:32:30and to think
00:32:31that we're so important
00:32:32in our day and age
00:32:33that we can ride roughshod
00:32:34over everything else
00:32:35it's asking for trouble
00:32:37I mean
00:32:38it's in
00:32:39from one
00:32:40you know
00:32:41it's not that different
00:32:42to
00:32:42to praying
00:32:44to a god
00:32:46and asking for something
00:32:47it's praying to a god
00:32:48it is praying to a god
00:32:49it's just
00:32:50not
00:32:50the christian god
00:32:52whom they've turned
00:32:52into some cruel
00:32:53very
00:32:54vengeful creature
00:32:56that augustine fella
00:32:57who should not be called
00:32:58saint augustine
00:32:59who does
00:32:59decided that women
00:33:00weren't worth anything
00:33:02except maybe
00:33:03to produce children
00:33:04but not much good
00:33:04and he was the one
00:33:05who started that awful
00:33:06awful custom
00:33:08of not allowing
00:33:09unbaptised babies
00:33:10to be buried in it
00:33:11and I cried then
00:33:13when I discovered
00:33:14about the use of
00:33:14the fairy forts
00:33:15I cried when I heard that
00:33:17that people
00:33:18who weren't allowed
00:33:19to bear
00:33:19to bury their baby
00:33:20I mean isn't it enough
00:33:21to have lost your baby
00:33:22yeah
00:33:22when they weren't allowed
00:33:23to bury them
00:33:24and consecrated
00:33:24churchyard
00:33:25they would take him
00:33:25to a fairy fort
00:33:26and bury them there
00:33:27because the good people
00:33:28would look after them
00:33:29they thought
00:33:33you know
00:33:33and they believed
00:33:34that he
00:33:34the old gods
00:33:35would look after them
00:33:36if the new god wouldn't
00:33:37and I loved that
00:33:39and it still moves me
00:33:41deeply
00:33:44years ago
00:33:45I was
00:33:45down in County Clare
00:33:47and
00:33:48I was at this
00:33:51retreat
00:33:52kind of a meditation
00:33:53retreat
00:33:54you know
00:33:54that included
00:33:55walking meditations
00:33:57and you were to
00:33:58found a stretch of road
00:34:02or boharine
00:34:03or something
00:34:03and
00:34:03you would do
00:34:05a walking
00:34:05meditation there
00:34:06twice a day
00:34:08and
00:34:09at the end of the retreat
00:34:10the guy said
00:34:11now I want you to go down
00:34:12to the place
00:34:13where you did your
00:34:13work
00:34:13walking meditation
00:34:14and
00:34:17in
00:34:18this particular
00:34:18Buddhist tradition
00:34:19they were called
00:34:20Devas
00:34:21I think it's
00:34:22D-E-V
00:34:22A
00:34:23possible
00:34:23I asked for yes
00:34:24but we'd know them
00:34:26as the good people
00:34:27and he said
00:34:28they're in the bushes
00:34:30yep
00:34:31and I want you to go down there
00:34:33and
00:34:33thank them
00:34:34for the insights
00:34:36that you received
00:34:37while
00:34:38while you were
00:34:39Oh I like that
00:34:40walking
00:34:40up and down
00:34:42beside them
00:34:43and
00:34:44and
00:34:44I went down to this
00:34:45little place
00:34:45where
00:34:45I was walking
00:34:46up and down
00:34:47and
00:34:48I gave encouragement
00:34:51to the part of myself
00:34:53that said
00:34:54do it
00:34:54and it felt
00:34:55really natural
00:34:56I think that is
00:34:58lovely
00:34:58that you were
00:34:58f***ing
00:34:58to say thank you
00:34:59I have a lot of time
00:35:00for the Buddhists
00:35:01a lot of time
00:35:02but even just
00:35:02just for the idea
00:35:03of thank
00:35:03the
00:35:04the
00:35:06spiritual
00:35:07or whatever
00:35:07that
00:35:07I don't
00:35:08it
00:35:08all
00:35:08it rumbles
00:35:09when you
00:35:09try to put words
00:35:10and definitions
00:35:10on it
00:35:11I know
00:35:11where
00:35:12do you reckon
00:35:13where do you think
00:35:15we're going
00:35:16I think we're
00:35:18I hope
00:35:19I think
00:35:20there are signs
00:35:21that we are moving
00:35:21back
00:35:22to more of a belief
00:35:23in nature
00:35:24in our old
00:35:25in our old ways
00:35:26and old beliefs
00:35:26because people are
00:35:28no
00:35:28nauseated I think
00:35:29by the way
00:35:29we seem to be going
00:35:30in the world
00:35:30we're going too fast
00:35:31in one direction
00:35:32and your instincts
00:35:33will
00:35:33tell you
00:35:34sometimes your brain
00:35:35has been so
00:35:36shut off
00:35:37by other things
00:35:38you have
00:35:38to do
00:35:39you're thinking
00:35:39I've got to be there
00:35:39I've got to be there
00:35:40I've got to do this
00:35:40but if you just let it
00:35:42like you did
00:35:42when you talked to a bush
00:35:43and said
00:35:44thank you
00:35:45and thank you
00:35:45for giving me
00:35:46this insight
00:35:47like you get
00:35:47when you're in a forest
00:35:48like you get
00:35:49at the top of a mountain
00:35:50Do you sing?
00:35:52I do
00:35:53I do
00:35:54I would sing
00:35:56the old songs
00:35:57always
00:35:57yes
00:35:58you're not going to
00:36:02have me asking
00:36:03to sing
00:36:03no
00:36:03are you?
00:36:03yeah
00:36:04come on
00:36:04do you have a song
00:36:06on you?
00:36:08well he young
00:36:08love said to me
00:36:10oh my mother
00:36:11owned mine
00:36:12and
00:36:13my father
00:36:14won't slight you
00:36:15for your lack of kind
00:36:18then he stepped away
00:36:20from me
00:36:21and this he did say
00:36:23it will not be long
00:36:27love
00:36:27till
00:36:28you
00:36:28our wedding day
00:36:30he stepped away
00:36:32from me
00:36:33and he moved
00:36:34through the fair
00:36:35oh how fondly
00:36:37I watched him
00:36:38move here
00:36:39and move there
00:36:40and then he went
00:36:42homeward
00:36:43with one star awake
00:36:45as a swan
00:36:47in the evening
00:36:48moves over the lake
00:36:51last night
00:36:53he came to me
00:36:54oh my dead love
00:36:56he did come in
00:36:58so softly he came
00:37:00that his feet
00:37:02made no din
00:37:03and he laid his hand
00:37:05on me
00:37:06and this he did say
00:37:08it will not be long
00:37:10it will not be long
00:37:11love
00:37:12till
00:37:13love
00:37:13oh wedding day
00:37:14oh damn you're turning
00:37:18oh Jesus
00:37:19for God's sake
00:37:21um
00:37:23I think there's magic
00:37:24and
00:37:26we've got to
00:37:27allow our
00:37:28our eyes to open
00:37:30a bit wider
00:37:31Joe
00:37:33it's been
00:37:34a wild ride
00:37:35thank you very much
00:37:37you were lovely to talk
00:37:38to Tommy
00:37:39and you're halfway there
00:37:40yourself already
00:37:41for heaven's sake
00:37:42thank you
00:37:43you're甜
00:37:44you're having to
00:37:45love
00:37:45love
00:37:46so
00:37:46you're having to
00:37:47let's go
00:37:47through
00:37:48the
00:37:49o
00:37:49o
00:37:49o
00:37:50o
00:37:50o
00:37:50o
00:37:50o
00:37:50o
00:37:50o
00:37:51o
00:37:59o
00:38:00o
00:38:00o
00:38:00o
00:38:01o
00:38:01o
00:38:02o
00:38:02o
00:38:03o
00:38:04o
00:38:04o
00:38:04o
00:38:05o
00:38:05o
00:38:05o
00:38:05o
00:38:05o
00:38:05o
00:38:06o
00:38:06o
00:38:13Timothy, how are you?
00:38:15I'm quite nervous.
00:38:18It's exciting.
00:38:19Sit down.
00:38:22Why would you be...
00:38:23I've never sat with a comedian.
00:38:28Comedy is only a small part of my imagination.
00:38:33I might not use it at all.
00:38:35So, what...
00:38:38What do you work at?
00:38:39What's your...
00:38:40How do you spend your time?
00:38:42Um...
00:38:43So, I am Timothy Chow, and I was born...
00:38:48I was born in North Korea, and escaped twice.
00:38:53And, um...
00:38:54When I was 17.
00:38:56And I was...
00:38:57Imprisoned three times in China, and one time in North Korea during Maya.
00:39:02I escaped and arrived in the UK in 2008, which...
00:39:07I started to learn English from having new life.
00:39:12Settled down, and now I'm a father of two children.
00:39:17So, I have two stages of stories.
00:39:21One story back...
00:39:22In North Korea, how I escaped, or even between that journey, and now where I am in the UK.
00:39:27As in my life, democratic cities.
00:39:29Can you show me, um...
00:39:31Whereabouts in...
00:39:32In North Korea, you were born, who you were born to, and what was it like growing up?
00:39:37So, born in a teacher's family, I was...
00:39:42I was given a lot of love, respected, until that moment when...
00:39:47When my parents first escaped to China, as I was turning...
00:39:52In age 10, so this was a life...
00:39:57in starting...
00:39:58up...
00:39:59upside down.
00:40:01Why...
00:40:02Did your parents want to escape?
00:40:04Due to political persecution,
00:40:07they...
00:40:07I had to make that choice,
00:40:09leaving me behind.
00:40:11So I came home...
00:40:12I came home from school
00:40:14and opened the door
00:40:16where I had...
00:40:17I had breakfast with them.
00:40:19In the afternoon, coming home,
00:40:21I realized...
00:40:22As soon as I opened the door,
00:40:24you could feel the frozen wind.
00:40:27It was hitting your face
00:40:29and realized something was happening in my heart.
00:40:32And I realized my parents were gone.
00:40:35So I fast ran...
00:40:37I went to the train station
00:40:39and that's how my parents were gone.
00:40:42And...
00:40:45And I sat down and cried...
00:40:47and...
00:40:51and ran to...
00:40:52to my grandmother's house...
00:40:54holding her hands.
00:40:57and cried...
00:40:59and cried...
00:41:02and grandmothers told me...
00:41:04they might come back...
00:41:05and...
00:41:06it's not what they want.
00:41:07It was a very difficult decision.
00:41:08It was a very difficult decision.
00:41:09Later, my mother...
00:41:10of course,
00:41:11asked me to...
00:41:12to forgive her...
00:41:13and...
00:41:14several years ago...
00:41:15before she passed away.
00:41:16So they...
00:41:17they...
00:41:17managed to escape.
00:41:18They did.
00:41:19So...
00:41:20two things.
00:41:21Did you know why...
00:41:22your parents left?
00:41:23And...
00:41:24one thing...
00:41:25I knew...
00:41:26it was a dangerous moment.
00:41:27something...
00:41:28they had to make that decision.
00:41:29If they didn't...
00:41:30How...
00:41:31how old were you when they...
00:41:32when they left?
00:41:32it was ten.
00:41:33Ten...
00:41:34Ten...
00:41:35So even it's ten...
00:41:36you still...
00:41:37had an awareness that it's not in details but what i knew
00:41:42we call enforced disappearance
00:41:47this is a time kind of hitler start the mouse those generations
00:41:52the families disappeared taken to prison camp north korea has that culture very common
00:41:57all of a sudden government car arrives at your door a force will put a whole fire
00:42:02into car and gone somewhere we know where they're gone but we don't talk about we should
00:42:07our mouth we close our eyes we block our ears and although
00:42:12i didn't completely understand the situation in north korea is 10. but i knew if they did
00:42:17make that choice or our family could have been taken away to const
00:42:22tracing camp then you'd never to come out forever
00:42:27so can i ask you um now living in the uk
00:42:32uh what differences do you see between there
00:42:37and north korea in terms of daily life say for a child or something
00:42:56you
00:42:42you
00:42:47born you're being controlled to do what need to do and you are
00:42:52being brainwashed from very young age to think
00:42:57act, speak, song and sing for the Kim family as you
00:43:02think the regime dictated and I genuinely thought
00:43:07Kims were my god when I was a boy. We were brainwashed deeply.
00:43:12At what age, so then you lived with your grandmother?
00:43:17It was a difficult time. Millions of people died of
00:43:20starvation in 1990.
00:43:22At least 3.5 million people died of starvation. Any relatives
00:43:27were struggling. I was going to live with her but I couldn't.
00:43:32Because most of the families struggled without enough food.
00:43:37So for a few years I lived on the street begging for
00:43:42food and sleeping at the stations in train containers on.
00:43:47the bridges. We sometimes had to eat grass.
00:43:52So this was a kind of a...
00:43:57a core survivor.
00:44:02So for a while...
00:44:12And later I was able to go back to my grandmother's house.
00:44:17Millions of people died of starvation.
00:44:19People started to grow food.
00:44:22In every available space.
00:44:27But still in isolation, the hunger story is quite...
00:44:32Why do you think...
00:44:36Um...
00:44:37The Kim family allowed people to die like that.
00:44:42North Korea did not exist in history.
00:44:47Until 1945, there was only one Korea who was there, South Korea.
00:44:52Same national flag, same national anthem.
00:44:55The first Kim who...
00:44:57Who was given the power by Stalin to set up communist dictators.
00:45:02And he established his own history.
00:45:06And he established his own history.
00:45:09The truth now gone into upside down.
00:45:14And we thought it was the best equal society in the world.
00:45:19Classless.
00:45:20We were wearing same shoes, same shirts, eating...
00:45:24The same food.
00:45:25After my parents escaped.
00:45:29They called me.
00:45:30They called me.
00:45:31I was a son of a traitor.
00:45:32I was categorized in the enemy class.
00:45:34Thirty percent of total population in the enemy class.
00:45:38You get...
00:45:39discriminated against everything.
00:45:40We call apartheid systems in North Korea.
00:45:44And I wasn't able to go to school from age 10 because I was given the...
00:45:49I'm son of a traitor.
00:45:50The enemy class.
00:45:51Tag.
00:45:54Um...
00:45:55Can you tell me about the...
00:45:57Putting together the plan...
00:45:59To escape when you were 17?
00:46:00I had no idea.
00:46:02I had no idea.
00:46:04I had no idea.
00:46:05All I thought...
00:46:06I...
00:46:07I...
00:46:08I...
00:46:09I...
00:46:10Just run away from that country.
00:46:11And...
00:46:12All I heard...
00:46:13Some...
00:46:14People who previously escaped...
00:46:16Talked about...
00:46:17Oh, China has plenty of food.
00:46:18What?
00:46:19Wherever you go...
00:46:20Maybe you can get a job.
00:46:21So...
00:46:22It was my plan.
00:46:24I had...
00:46:25Prepared...
00:46:26Some of these emergency food myself.
00:46:29And...
00:46:30Um...
00:46:31So...
00:46:32There were four people of us.
00:46:33Uh...
00:46:34And...
00:46:35We crossed the border at night time.
00:46:37We walked.
00:46:38It was...
00:46:39was not deep enough the Tumen River called Tumen River between China and North Korea.
00:46:44And it didn't take us long. It only took us half an hour.
00:46:49We crossed the border and we arrived.
00:46:54I felt feeling quite sad after I crossed the border.
00:46:59And I was thinking, would I ever go back to that place I was born?
00:47:04My hometown, but I still miss it.
00:47:06How did you, when you were in China, how did you...
00:47:09So China is not safe for us, so I went to the Mongolian border.
00:47:14And meant to cross the border into Mongolia.
00:47:17So I met 17 people.
00:47:19At the border, all the North Korean refugees.
00:47:22So we were 18 of us.
00:47:24And we planned to cross the border into Mongolia, but there we were arrested.
00:47:29At the border by the Chinese military and in our group.
00:47:34The youngest were four and six-year-olds, and they were shooting in our...
00:47:39our way when we didn't stop towards the border, Captain...
00:47:44burning, and Chinese were chasing us and shooting in our way, and kids were screaming.
00:47:49And crying, we couldn't run anymore.
00:47:54And we all stopped, and we were arrested, sent us back to North Korea.
00:47:59And now taken to a...
00:48:04prison detention, it was what they call detention center, but it was...
00:48:09they were prison cells on the ground, many cells.
00:48:13And...
00:48:14it was...
00:48:15the same prison cells actually I saw...
00:48:18when I...
00:48:19when I visited the Auschwitz prison camp, I had the opportunity to visit.
00:48:24and I saw the gas chambers and...
00:48:26and how people tortured and killed there.
00:48:29and...
00:48:30and...
00:48:31this was exactly what will...
00:48:33how...
00:48:34happening in North Korea.
00:48:35and...
00:48:36and...
00:48:37and...
00:48:38everyone looked...
00:48:39I saw...
00:48:41and...
00:48:42the...
00:48:43I saw...
00:48:44I saw...
00:48:45I saw...
00:48:46I saw...
00:48:47I saw...
00:48:48I saw...
00:48:49I saw...
00:48:50I saw...
00:48:51some
00:48:52idea,
00:48:53you're bringing significant of these people out there.
00:48:55And it ended with having those cravings on it,
00:48:59the other...
00:49:00the other,
00:49:02I saw...
00:49:03I saw...
00:49:04how...
00:49:06row...
00:49:08it...
00:49:08morning early in the morning I realized the man who was leaning against me he
00:49:12died
00:49:13it was so heavy he was leaning against me hold the body
00:49:18he was already tortured before I arrived we were given to
00:49:23scoop of noodle soup no medical treatment
00:49:28yeah he this man
00:49:31what he looked
00:49:33like I can still see him
00:49:38and I was treated terribly there
00:49:41and it was
00:49:43very surprising when they decide to
00:49:46send me to my
00:49:48grandmother's house which I didn't expect I was the only one who actually
00:49:53left the prison cell all these 17 of them who
00:49:58we tried together I left them behind or hundreds of men and women
00:50:03whom I saw there
00:50:06and I left with
00:50:08huge scars which I still have on my body
00:50:12so I
00:50:13I managed the second escape and I went to
00:50:18international school they call American school in Shanghai
00:50:21and
00:50:23through all the
00:50:24perseverance we managed to get into the school and we had one
00:50:28paper
00:50:29we North Korean refugees please help us
00:50:32and all these
00:50:33little kids
00:50:34primary school students they were panicking they never had this situation
00:50:37and
00:50:38screaming, and the school principal came and said to us,
00:50:43unfortunately, we cannot help you because this is a public school, not a...
00:50:48diplomatical government centre, so soon many Chinese police...
00:50:53arrived there, and nine of us, we made human chains.
00:50:58We didn't want to be drugged out of the school, we knew what was going to happen.
00:51:03And repatriation to North Korea.
00:51:06But, obviously, there were four...
00:51:08we dragged us into police vans, and kids were standing there.
00:51:13crying, they couldn't help us.
00:51:16And so we were now...
00:51:18sent to Shanghai International Detention Centre.
00:51:23And that was my fourth imprisonment.
00:51:28And...
00:51:33there was no hope.
00:51:37But then...
00:51:38second...
00:51:42night...
00:51:43in the prison cell.
00:51:44One of the inmates...
00:51:45I had seven inmates in my cell.
00:51:47He...
00:51:48came to me...
00:51:49and ensured himself...
00:51:50to me...
00:51:51that he was a South Korean...
00:51:53gangster.
00:51:54Of course, we speak the Korean language, so we were able to communicate.
00:51:58And he asked me...
00:52:00perhaps...
00:52:01you could start...
00:52:02pray to God...
00:52:03for your survival.
00:52:04If God is there...
00:52:05you never know.
00:52:06And I looked at...
00:52:07And I looked at...
00:52:08him...
00:52:09and I was thinking...
00:52:10what a crazy...
00:52:11mentally unstable...
00:52:12gangster...
00:52:13mad...
00:52:14I just told him...
00:52:15I would be killed...
00:52:16and he was telling me...
00:52:17to pray to God...
00:52:18for myself...
00:52:18even after...
00:52:19I worshipped...
00:52:20the Kim family...
00:52:21for 17 years.
00:52:23But then...
00:52:25first time...
00:52:26I made my own decision there.
00:52:28in the darkest prison cell.
00:52:29First time...
00:52:30I made my own decision...
00:52:31in the darkest prison cell.
00:52:33I decided...
00:52:34to pray to God...
00:52:35because there was nothing else...
00:52:36I could do.
00:52:38and I...
00:52:39genuinely...
00:52:40was...
00:52:41holding hope...
00:52:42into that.
00:52:43what I was...
00:52:44wishing for...
00:52:45because I didn't want...
00:52:46to be killed.
00:52:47It was so...
00:52:48scary.
00:52:51And I was holding the prison...
00:52:53and...
00:52:54gave...
00:52:55off...
00:52:56I don't know...
00:52:57how many days I did...
00:52:58watching over...
00:53:00looking over...
00:53:01the birds were flying...
00:53:02outside of the prisons.
00:53:03I was hoping...
00:53:04I could fly...
00:53:05like the birds...
00:53:06or...
00:53:07how many times...
00:53:08I cried...
00:53:09why...
00:53:10I was born into this world.
00:53:13and...
00:53:14how many times...
00:53:16boys...
00:53:17Even though I pointed out...
00:53:18I left...
00:53:19to be found.
00:53:20You boys...
00:53:21be found.
00:53:22Whether they were...
00:53:23was a
00:53:30beautiful story...
00:53:32my cousins were...
00:53:33and...
00:53:34like...
00:53:35what they happened...
00:53:36was...
00:53:37to be found...
00:53:38...
00:53:39to be found...
00:53:40...
00:53:42Two men visited me in the prison, two diplomats.
00:53:47One guy was a South Korean diplomat, the other guy was a westerner, and they said to him,
00:53:52Timothy, we have good news that China made very unusual decision.
00:53:57To deport you and your group to the Philippines.
00:54:02I wanted passport, not to North Korea.
00:54:05This was the first ever...
00:54:07The second case and last happened.
00:54:09Never happened before.
00:54:12The story behind was among those hundreds...
00:54:17...of school students, a 13-year-old girl, she wrote an email to...
00:54:22...the journalist who broken her English grammar as well.
00:54:26I read the email.
00:54:27I read it on the internet later.
00:54:29It's still there.
00:54:31She asked the journalist...
00:54:32...we were traumatized watching the arrest.
00:54:36We...
00:54:37...and powerless.
00:54:38We couldn't do anything.
00:54:39They would be killed if they sent back to North Korea.
00:54:42Could you please do something?
00:54:44This journalist who was placed in Japan...
00:54:47...and during those days...
00:54:49...and she moved after receiving her email.
00:54:52...and an email to CNN, Washington Post.
00:54:57The articles are still there.
00:54:59And BBC...
00:55:00...and dozens of international media.
00:55:02...to stand up.
00:55:03And they are so pressured on the Chinese government...
00:55:06...to not...
00:55:07...and send them back to North Korea.
00:55:09So I was able to come to the UK.
00:55:12...via another country...
00:55:14...in 2008.
00:55:16I mean...
00:55:17...I mean...
00:55:23My English is a great manager.
00:55:28And I think you have to see...
00:55:29...your information of the newspaper.
00:55:31As sitting down the river...
00:55:32Ephesus Record proved it was worthwhile.
00:55:33There are trifle papers too.
00:55:34So far...
00:55:35I've looked at a guess.
00:55:36...as a good idea.
00:55:37There is all about my new Porkyre...
00:55:39...size mushin has testified...
00:55:40...we over S-Afe boleh epsilon 17th密度.
00:55:43recib her 1 year old...
00:55:45By the way...
00:55:46... five years old,
00:55:47Charlie Wockitem Whacky...
00:55:48Furry...
00:55:49...want to remember what you're thinking.
00:55:50I was so heavily traumatized, then I learned later.
00:55:55It was the hatred I was holding in my heart that put me into darkness.
00:56:00And I was able to learn how to...
00:56:05So my mom actually rang me...
00:56:10A few years ago, before she passed away, she died in a care home.
00:56:14She had this...
00:56:15Her body, half-body, paralyzed for years.
00:56:20And I received her phone call on a bus in Manchester.
00:56:24She couldn't...
00:56:25The doctor said, your mom has one question.
00:56:28The question was, son...
00:56:30Could you forgive me?
00:56:32She lived or suffered.
00:56:35Many years.
00:56:38And it was the final moment.
00:56:40She asked me.
00:56:41And I asked...
00:56:42I told my mom, mom, I have already forgiven you.
00:56:45And I have a different story, life in the UK.
00:56:48I learned English.
00:56:50I learned English.
00:56:51I got my high school certificates, A-levels.
00:56:54And I went...
00:56:55I went to universities, studied in politics, and I was expecting to work in...
00:57:00Parliament in 2018.
00:57:01And she always...
00:57:05Always wanted to give me the best education as she was a teacher.
00:57:08And always wanted me to wear nice clothes.
00:57:10And she was crying and crying.
00:57:15And I...
00:57:16I'm very lucky.
00:57:18And I'm very blessed.
00:57:20But I do believe there must be a reason why I survived.
00:57:25And while I am in your studio...
00:57:30I will commit my life to speak how...
00:57:35against injustice.
00:57:36Especially around this time of the war.
00:57:40So much hatred.
00:57:41Wals and conflict.
00:57:42Refugees.
00:57:43Persecution.
00:57:44And...
00:57:45The war is going.
00:57:46I have spoken.
00:57:47I have spoken.
00:57:48I have spoken.
00:57:49I have spoken.
00:57:50To millions of people around the world over the past few years.
00:57:53Very grateful.
00:57:55That someone who couldn't have a passport.
00:57:56I now have a British passport.
00:57:58They can travel around.
00:58:00And that I can come and share this of my experience freely.
00:58:05All this is nothing for me anyway.
00:58:08Do it every day.
00:58:09Will it be taken away?
00:58:10Umm...
00:58:11Who will it never know?
00:58:12Who will it?
00:58:13OK.
00:58:15Hmm...
00:58:16приход in life...
00:58:17wheels...
00:58:19Raymond...
00:58:20Como Lord...
00:58:21podcasts...
00:58:24Makes the second one more.
00:58:26Alright.
00:58:26Um.
00:58:27I was very lucky.
00:58:29Ladies...
00:58:31Well...
00:58:32Um.
00:58:34By the way.
00:58:34From my name...
00:58:34Um,
00:58:40and now, ladies and gentlemen,
00:58:41would you please welcome
00:58:41Aoife Nivreen and Cormac McCarthy
00:58:44performing
00:58:44Crowley's from their new album
00:58:46Cosán Costa.
00:58:49Oife Nivreen
00:58:54Oife Nivreen
00:58:59Oife Nivreen
00:59:04Oife Nivreen
00:59:09Oife Nivreen
00:59:14Oife Nivreen
00:59:19Oife Nivreen
00:59:24Oife Nivreen
00:59:29Oife Nivreen
00:59:34Oife Nivreen
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