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00:00At what point is there a tipping point? 17 days.
00:05After the shooting death of Renee Good, masked Immigrations and Customs Enforcement agents in Minneapolis.
00:10Again shooting dead a U.S. citizen. This time 37-year-old Alex Preti.
00:15Again, there's video evidence to contradict official narratives that the victims were...
00:20Acting as domestic terrorists. There's the race to gather evidence before...
00:25...can be tainted or destroyed. Media echo chambers. And a U.S. president who...
00:30...watches from on high. Why these shows of force? Will they discourage dissents?
00:35Or trigger a backlash? Do these hurriedly recruited federal agents...
00:40...armed with military-grade weapons answer to courts and lawmakers? Or solely to...
00:45...the U.S. president. And while passions reach boiling point in specific opposition...
00:50...strongholds, will the rest of the United States continue to go about its business?
00:55At what point is the rest of the population affected by this breaking of norms and pushing...
01:00...of boundaries? More broadly, has the veneer come off a superpower that claimed a certain...
01:05...exceptionalism in its values? Values on which it arguably won the Cold War? What's...
01:10...has changed? And is that change for good? Today in the France 24 debate, we're asking if I...
01:15...cases above the law. With us from Minneapolis, criminal defense attorney...
01:20...James Cook, thank you so much for being with us.
01:22James Cook, thank you so much for being with us.
01:23James Cook, thank you. Thank you for having me.
01:25From New York, Bernard Harcourt, professor of law and political theory at Columbia...
01:30...university. Good to see you. Good to see you. Thanks for having me.
01:35We co-published a video op-ed, We Study Fascism and We're Leaving the U.S. Last...
01:40...March. Marci Shore, chair in European Intellectual History at the University of Toronto's...
01:44...Monks...
01:45...School of Global Affairs and Public Policy. Welcome.
01:50Thank you. And welcome to Malcolm Biga, U.S. Politics Center at French New...
01:55...News Magazine, Le Nouvel Economiste. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being with us. On the go, by the way...
02:00...you can listen to the show, wherever podcasts are streamed. Yeah, the...
02:05...Anger palpable. And while the U.S. President announced he was dispatching his...
02:10...bordered Tsar. A judge was considering a request to temporarily stop the Trump...
02:15...administration's immigration crackdown in Minnesota. We've seen...
02:20...people once again this Monday flocking to a makeshift...
02:25...a memorial for that second victim of ICE agents in less...
02:30...than three weeks. Charlotte Hughes has more.
02:35A vigil at the site where protester Alex Pretti was shot dead by a federal immigration agent...
02:40...on Saturday. Among those present at the site were members of the Minnesota Bureau of...
02:45...criminal apprehension. The Bureau said on Saturday that federal agents had blocked its...
02:50...attempts to begin an investigation. There is a legal fight now and away over control of...
02:55...that. With Immigration and Customs Enforcement ICE agents still in place, Minnesota Governor...
03:00...Tim Walls addressed his words to the U.S. President.
03:03So my question is, what's the plan, Doc?
03:05Donald Trump, what is the plan? What do we need to do...
03:10...to get these federal agents out of our state? You thought fear, violence and chaos is what you want...
03:15...from us, and you clearly underestimated the people of this state and nation.
03:20In a post on social media, Donald Trump blamed what he called democratic...
03:25...chaos for the incident. Pretti's family say they want the truth. This is an...
03:30...analysis of videos of the killing of the 37-year-old intensive care nurse contradicts statements...
03:35...from the Trump administration that it was carried out defensively.
03:39Former U.S. President...
03:40...Barrack Obama on X said...
03:42The killing of Alex Pretti is a heartbreaking tragedy.
03:45It should also be a wake-up call to every American, regardless of party.
03:50...that many of our core values as a nation are increasingly under assault.
03:55Similarly, Bill Clinton has urged Americans to stand up and speak out.
04:00The U.S. Senator in Louisiana for the Republicans, Bill Cassidy says the credibility of ICE and the...
04:05Department of Homeland Security are at stake, and calls for a joint federal and state...
04:10...of investigation.
04:12Border Patrol commander Gregory Bovino says he will be...
04:15...awaiting the results of the investigation.
04:17...to uncover all those facts...
04:18I wasn't there...
04:19I wasn't there...
04:20...wrestling that assaultive subject that was assaulting Border Patrol agents.
04:24I was...
04:25I wasn't there...
04:26...wrestling him myself.
04:27So...
04:28I'm not going to speculate.
04:29I'm going to wait for that investigation to come...
04:30No, don't interrupt me.
04:31I'm going to wait until that investigation comes out until I make a...
04:35...
04:35decision there. Democrats in Congress, meanwhile, are saying they will hold up homeland security.
04:40This amid a death that has provoked outrage.
04:45James Cook, before I ask you about the mood.
04:50Tell us about your weekend. I understand you were in court.
04:55Yes, I was in court actually on Friday.
05:00Doing the criminal defense portion for.
05:05The influencer known as the woke farmer and he was released from.
05:10Court and it was fine.
05:13The government made their arguments that he should.
05:15Be detained further. The judge didn't buy it.
05:18So, so ultimately he was released that.
05:20Afternoon went home. Things are kind of normal.
05:24Wake up.
05:25The next morning at about 6 AM and ice is attempting to raid his house.
05:30And this is after he was released by a federal judge.
05:33So what.
05:35Went to his.
05:36Went to the location where he was staying.
05:38Saw the aftermath.
05:40Half of their attempts to execute the warrant.
05:42They actually.
05:43Executed the warrant on this on the.
05:45wrong house.
05:46They.
05:47They.
05:48They entered a neighbor's house who has a.
05:49Has a pacemaker.
05:50They.
05:50Startled him.
05:51Uh.
05:52And then.
05:53So, you know.
05:54I kind of dealt with that.
05:55And then.
05:56Approximately.
05:57About an hour and a half later.
05:58They.
05:59They shot.
06:00They shot.
06:01Mr.
06:02Parade.
06:03You.
06:04You.
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06:26You.
06:27You.
06:28You.
06:29It's a tragedy, and it didn't have to happen, and we are braced.
06:34I'm looking for more based on what I've seen with my own eyes.
06:39I'm not even talking about it from a legal standpoint, ISIS pretty much operated recklessly.
06:44And it sort of escalated every single situation.
06:49And that's why people are dying.
06:52And that's kind of the mood while it's...
06:54They're trying to memorialize Mr. Pritchard's life, but at the same time, they're...
06:59They're trying to embrace it for more.
07:00Yeah, we're showing live images there.
07:04Or while you're speaking, we know that the...
07:09The border patrols are expected.
07:12That's the attorney general of Minnesota.
07:14We just saw a moment ago, before we talk about the...
07:19Again, the legal aspect of it.
07:22Marcy Shore...
07:24How do you make sense of this in light of what you just heard there from James...
07:29Mr. Pooke, these federal agents in his...
07:34personal instance, going to the wrong house or issuing.
07:39Warrants, despite what the courts had said.
07:44Well, first, I want to thank James Cook for being here and for being in Minneapolis.
07:49I've been watching Minneapolis, the streaming all weekend with kind of.
07:54Awe and admiration for so many of my fellow Americans who are actually there on the front line.
07:59You know, and with a lot of guilt for not being there myself.
08:04We're well, I'm not a lawyer, you know, I'm an intellectual historian.
08:07I teach Kant.
08:09I deal a lot with the realm of the metaphysical, but this is not subtle.
08:14We are way outside the realm of the rule of law.
08:17We have been way outside.
08:19The realm of the rule of law for a long time.
08:22We all watched.
08:24We all watched a point blank range like that.
08:28Those ice.
08:29Those ice agents murder Renee Goode and then murder Alex Pretti.
08:33And there was.
08:34Excellent video analysis done by NPR, done by The New York Times, done by Steve.
08:39CNN, it was not ambiguous what happened.
08:42We watched people fight.
08:44We also watched people fire bullets with no legitimate provocation, you know, into the bodies of.
08:49innocent Americans. We should care about everybody. And I'm also calling.
08:54on people who specifically care about Americans to care about Americans. We've all watched that
08:58happen.
08:59And then we've watched the government brazenly and shamelessly.
09:04And so, Marcy, we're lawyered up on this panel.
09:09Because there's Bernard Harcourt who's a lawyer, we have Malcolm Bigot who did legal
09:13stuff.
09:14Bernard, let me ask you, because Alex Prady had a license to carry a handgun.
09:19As Minnesota allows, you just heard Marcy describe the.
09:24Video evidence. It shows that this nurse was shot by.
09:29Two agents while trying to intercede on behalf of a protester than pepper sprayed by the agents.
09:34But is that video evidence enough?
09:39Well, look, the video evidence is what we have right now in the.
09:44Video evidence is the basis on which law enforcement, prosecutors.
09:49Attorney generals, et cetera, will decide whether or not to pursue.
09:54An investigation, which, of course, they must given the evidence, you said he had.
09:59A license to carry.
10:01Now, the.
10:02The.
10:04The official evidence from those videos is that the weapon that he was.
10:09carrying lawfully had been removed from him and taken out of the.
10:14melee before the officer and then the second office.
10:19officer began shooting 10 shots at him and killing him so.
10:24So, from the evidence we have so far, it's pretty clear that they're.
10:29didn't seem to be any risk to the officers or to bystander.
10:34And therefore, you know, it looks like a pretty simple.
10:39simple clay case of, you know, unreasonable use of law enforcement.
10:44legal force.
10:45So that's that's the question, of course.
10:49There's no immunity.
10:50There's no immunity.
10:51J.D.
10:52Vance had spoken about absolute immunity.
10:54He's fortunately retracted anything about that since there is no such thing.
11:00But there isn't immunity for a law enforcement officer.
11:03The.
11:04The only question is whether it's a reasonable use of lethal force.
11:09And that comes up all the time in police shootings.
11:14law enforcement use of lethal force.
11:16It's nothing new in any way.
11:18Um.
11:19The only thing that is new is that.
11:21The federal government has been trying to effective.
11:24shield.
11:25The incident from any kind of investigation.
11:28And in that.
11:29sense, it's a real departure from what we call the rule of law.
11:34the law enforcement.
11:35The law enforcement.
11:36The law enforcement.
11:37The law enforcement.
11:38The law enforcement.
11:39The law enforcement.
11:40The law enforcement.
11:41The law enforcement.
11:42The law enforcement.
11:43The law enforcement.
11:44The law enforcement.
11:45The law enforcement.
11:46The law enforcement.
11:47The law enforcement.
11:48The law enforcement.
11:49The law enforcement.
11:50The law enforcement.
11:51The law enforcement.
11:52The law enforcement.
11:53The law enforcement.
11:54The law enforcement.
11:55The law enforcement.
11:56The law enforcement.
11:57The law enforcement.
11:58The law enforcement.
11:59The law enforcement.
12:00The law enforcement.
12:01The law enforcement.
12:02The law enforcement.
12:03The law enforcement.
11:39It's Bernard, the White House spokesperson, saying that both.
11:44The FBI and Homeland Security have opened investments.
11:49Investigations into this latest shooting based on how it's gone in the near.
11:54Three weeks since Renee Good was killed.
11:56What would you say on that score?
11:59Well, I mean, it's important.
12:04It's important that the federal agencies have started investigations.
12:07I also understand.
12:09President Trump told Governor Walz that the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension...
12:14...could conduct also an independent investigation into the shooting of Alex Preddy.
12:19So, it seems as if investigations are going to be going forward, both at a federal and
12:23at a state.
12:24...level.
12:25What troubles me is the...
12:29...unprofessional way in which these crimes...
12:34...scenes have been treated in the unprofessional way in which.
12:37...
12:39individual, you know, the ICE agents have been operating.
12:44These are crime scenes, and they should be immediate.
12:49It's immediately turned into a crime scene where people aren't allowed to just walk around or...
12:54lay wreaths or something.
12:55There's a lot of documentation that needs to be taken.
12:59That's always done.
13:00It's just ordinary.
13:01I mean, as, you know...
13:04As James Cook will tell you, any criminal defense attorney knows any process.
13:09You have a crime scene.
13:10You need to figure out where bullets were shot, where people were, where the...
13:14blood is, all of that information needs to be, in a way...
13:19investigated.
13:20Now, when you had the Rene Good shooting, the...
13:24agent who actually shot and killed her just got...
13:29in his car and left, I mean, that is...
13:31that's not acceptable by any standard of...
13:34law enforcement procedure.
13:36So, what's troubling is that...
13:39there's such an exceptionality going on...
13:44right now that it's hard to believe that the...
13:49federal investigator is going to be doing a professional...
13:54job, given that the scene itself has not been secured, etc.
13:59Marco Miga, what conclusions should we draw on this side of the Atlantic...
14:04We even heard the German Chancellor weigh in at a summit this Monday...
14:09in Hamburg...
14:10about, well, we hope there's going to be a proper investigation...
14:14Why does this matter so much to Europeans?
14:17Because, you see, more and more...
14:19French people around me are asking...
14:21is America still democracy?
14:23I will...
14:24I will say...
14:25America is not yet...
14:26it's still a democracy...
14:27but...
14:28is...
14:29more and more...
14:30authoritarian states.
14:31And the issue we have...
14:33is ICE.
14:34ICE was supposed to be...
14:35it's still to be...
14:36a federal agency.
14:37More and more...
14:38ICE...
14:39is a militia...
14:40is a militia...
14:41which doesn't work with...
14:43is a militia...
14:44which doesn't work with...
14:44federal...
14:45local...
14:46forces.
14:47In Minnesota...
14:48you have...
14:49600...
14:49local forces...
14:50working...
14:51under...
14:52the...
14:53Minnesota States...
14:54and...
14:54me...
14:55a police city.
14:56And...
14:57Donald Trump...
14:58deployed...
14:593,000...
15:00federal...
14:59agents.
15:00And...
15:01those agents...
15:02don't work...
15:03with...
15:04local forces...
15:04and...
15:05Amy...
15:06Mr. Boucher...
15:07the Democrat Senator...
15:08expressed this...
15:09yesterday...
15:10he...
15:11Senator...
15:12from...
15:13Minnesota...
15:14Mr. Boucher...
15:15Mr. Boucher...
15:16Mr. Boucher...
15:17Mr. Boucher...
15:18Mr. Boucher...
15:19Mr. Boucher...
15:20Mr. Boucher...
15:21Mr. Boucher...
15:22Tim Walsh...
15:23the governor...
15:24and Jacob Fry...
15:25the mayor of Minneapolis...
15:26So...
15:27James Cook...
15:27questions then concretely. Once a federal agency takes over an investigation,
15:32that's it, following up from what Malcolm just said. And secondly, what are...
15:37What are the chances that any of the shooters in these two incidents...
15:42will ever be brought to justice or convicted?
15:47So just to answer, let's take each question. So I think the first question...
15:52is just in terms of the investigation.
15:57We should work together. I mean, in most of these cases, I've been...
16:02involved in a lot of cases where there's federal and state overlap, which is most...
16:07of the police cases that my office does. And I just want to remind you...
16:12work for the gentleman who did the Rodney King versus City of Los Angeles case.
16:17So we have a lot of practice in doing cases that involve...
16:22federal and state issues. So yeah, usually we work together.
16:25Usually the state and the federal government work.
16:27We work together. In terms of the other question that you...
16:32will be opposed is whether or not these officers will be brought to justice.
16:35So both...
16:37I think the professor's kind of alluded to this about immunity. There is the issue of...
16:42qualified immunity. Most officers argue when you sue them that they have...
16:47qualified immunity saying that as long as they... basically in layman's terms...
16:52as long as they acted within the law or thought that they were...
16:55they should be immune from any type of...
16:57liability. However, as the other professor, Markson said...
17:02you know, you can synthesize philosophy and law...
17:07and she studies comp. I mean, this is one of those situations where you have...
17:12an a priori perspective that... you know...
17:17this video should show you... that... the officers did not follow protocol...
17:22they escalated the situation... they escalated the situation to a point where they just...
17:27decided to shoot someone... and then... you know... they didn't treat the currency properly.
17:32So... whether or not these officers will be brought to justice...
17:35I think that's my job.
17:37That's our job as our law office... and we're sure gonna try.
17:40Brought to justice...
17:42do you think it will happen in a criminal court or in a civil court?
17:47I... I think that it's gonna take a civil court.
17:50Um... we just...
17:52We just...
17:52We just completed a large cap... class...
17:54well...
17:55large...
17:56a large...
17:57lawsuit...
17:57in...
17:58in...
17:59in...
18:00the city of Antioch...
18:01California...
18:02where the officers were...
18:02texting about how they frame people and how they beat people up.
18:07You know, so on and so forth.
18:08And some of those officers actually went to jail.
18:11We had another kid.
18:12There's a case where the officer, you know, he shot someone in the head as he's walking
18:16away.
18:17He was caught on video.
18:19He went to jail.
18:20I only hope that the same thing happened.
18:22In this case, you know, we have to go through the litigation process.
18:25Let me.
18:27Let me ask you about this, Marcy Schor, because you heard Malcolm Bigas saying people here
18:31in Europe.
18:32Wondering about the state of democracy in the United States.
18:37We've been talking.
18:38The White House spokesperson says that Donald Trump.
18:42has demanded an end to, quote, resistance and chaos in Minneapolis.
18:46Your reaction.
18:47So I'm not a lawyer and I'm not going to sound.
18:52As careful and moderate, you know, I think we are no longer a democracy.
18:56I think.
18:57We are well into authoritarianism.
18:59I think there is a tremendous amount of denial about.
19:02That perhaps, especially among Europeans who continue to hold on.
19:07to this idea that America is the arsenal of democracy.
19:12You know, and the land of the free and the home of the brave attorney cook.
19:17You know, we have mentioned the Rodney King case.
19:19I don't know how many French viewers are familiar.
19:22with that, but I'm old enough to have been, you know, I'm old enough to remember.
19:27that and I was at those demonstrations.
19:291992.
19:301992, yes.
19:30I was, I was the second.
19:32I was a senior student at Stanford University.
19:33So I was in the Bay Area.
19:35I was in California.
19:36I was.
19:37at those demonstrations against the police violence that was applied to Rodney King.
19:41You know.
19:42And that was a moment when things in our country should have turned because.
19:47it was an illumination of the extent to which black Americans in particular were subject.
19:52to tremendous amounts of arbitrary violence, you know, and you can say that the original.
19:57sin, you know, of my country is that we were built on slavery, never completely.
20:02confronted that we sent racially segregated troops to Europe to fight the Nazis.
20:07We had miscegenation laws in place until they were overturned in 1967.
20:12And we have had mass incarceration and arbitrary violence applied, especially.
20:17to communities and peoples of color since then.
20:20And there has not been the.
20:22kind of reckoning with that there needs to be.
20:24And now that kind of arbitrary violence.
20:27that had been confined largely to several to certain groups now that are.
20:32arbitrary violence has encompassed all of society, you know, and the question is, is.
20:37there now going to be a reckoning and now is, of course, a difficult moment because we have descended.
20:42So far into authoritarianism and I just want to add that that doesn't.
20:47mean that there is nobody who can be trusted.
20:49There are heroic people out there in sub freeze.
20:52temperatures in Minneapolis.
20:53There are people in Washington who are out there every day.
20:57You know, Jasmine Crockett, Chris Murphy, Jamie Raskin, AOC, you know, who are.
21:02I have absolute moral clarity.
21:04There are people I would trust personally, but they are not winning.
21:07right now and the people in power have absolutely no respect or consideration for democracy.
21:12and the rule of law at all.
21:13So Gregory Bovino, this is that field commander.
21:17for ice, he's been the face of heavy handed tactics in other cities.
21:22like Chicago.
21:23And he's been standing out, Marcy, wearing this.
21:27a, what is it like a world war one style military coat for the cold weather.
21:32You saw it there a minute ago.
21:34Now he's, and he's not wearing it in those images, but we saw it in that first.
21:37picture.
21:38The, the, the coat, what does that represent for you?
21:42And, and you know, is he above the law?
21:45And, you know, is he above the law?
21:47He certainly believes he's above the law.
21:48He certainly believes he's above the law.
21:49He certainly believes he's above the law.
21:50If anyone watched that gruesome.
21:52And, you know, I had an interview with Dana Bash on CNN yesterday, where he absolutely refused.
21:56She was doing her job.
21:57But he absolutely refused to answer her questions.
21:59She said, Department of Homeland Security claims.
22:02that Freddie was brandishing a weapon.
22:04Where here do you see brandishing a weapon again and again?
22:07And he just brazenly dissimulated and lied in front of everybody.
22:11I mean, he.
22:12He's coast playing some kind of Gestapo like role, in my opinion, you know, or.
22:17In my reading, these people feel that they are immune.
22:20These people feel that they can do what.
22:22They can do whatever they want with impunity.
22:23My, my Ukrainian friends would call this.
22:25We have crime without punishment.
22:27Punishment without crime.
22:28It's this role.
22:29It's this rule of the arbitrary that.
22:32That's the word I keep using in Russian, from the video, which is a word we arbitrariness.
22:37That's always already tinged with tyranny and the potential for terror that.
22:42ihmizes people because nobody knows who's going to be next.
22:45And it's something that I think black Americans.
22:47have experience of, and most other Americans don't, and we haven't even developed yet a language.
22:52To articulate what's happening to us with these people who believe that they're above the law.
22:57Who now have gone from casual disregard for other people's lives.
23:02To performative statism.
23:05I mean, you look at Christy Dawn's.
23:07Quasi-sexual video op-eds in front of the prison in El Salvador.
23:11These are.
23:12These are people who are reveling in cruelty, you know, and I think Bovino is one of them.
23:16I think he's.
23:17Are they above the law, Bernard Akour?
23:22All right, well, I think they are trying to be above the law.
23:27Let me try and cover a few topics that we.
23:32That we've addressed with my lawyer hat on and then with my.
23:37Lawyer hat off just quickly because I think some listeners might be confused on the question.
23:42On the questions of qualified immunity or what James Cook was talking about.
23:47It's important just to distinguish between civil litigation and criminal litigation.
23:52And so we should keep in mind that those are two different tracks, two different possibilities.
23:57There can be criminal pursuits of the officers who shot.
24:01There can.
24:02There can be civil litigation brought by the estate of the family of family of.
24:07the victims, et cetera.
24:09And so that that.
24:12Should, you know, who brings those is different.
24:15Of course, it's the families with their.
24:17civil lawyers or it's the state or the federal prosecutors and that's important.
24:22In that context, in the civil context, there is qualified immunity.
24:27In the criminal context, which I was talking about earlier, there is really no.
24:32But immunity, it's just a question of whether or not the officers acted reasonably.
24:37All right, that's with my lawyer hat, Marcy was saying that the lawyers are being more.
24:42More restrained than she is, but I.
24:47With my lawyer hat on or off, I mean, I've been arguing for a long time now that.
24:52We're in the middle of what I would call a counter revolution using tactics.
24:57That go back to counterinsurgency warfare.
25:02And I think we see it here vividly, the way in which.
25:07And there's a Escapeion likehim.
25:08Mobiation like myself.
25:09Yourness having Dual rights.
25:10It feels better.
25:11It feels better.
25:12So that the, what the.
25:14police, kids have a different.
25:15They can.
25:16They can't.
25:18bater dire, the HR, the 각s themselves, so that local lawyers are not for authority.
25:20These types of residents who are dying in order workplace with academic Restaurants
25:23and Assemblyissez.
25:24But my.
25:24lady on your
25:29No other page is that other membranes and what I said would say.
25:34these are the ice the ice agents um and and
25:39of course for the rest of us you give us a lot of bread and circus you win our hearts and minds
25:44with a lot of distractions um and we've seen that as well since there
25:49so many uh every day is a different news cycle whether it's greenland or
25:54or um or venezuela etc um but the point is that yes
26:11you
25:59yes i mean we are in a situation where
26:03you
26:04the trump administration is trying to create uh
26:09a a unit here the the ice uh agents who are
26:14who are above the law who are protected more than others who are given
26:19immunity even if there is no legal immunity um and so that is
26:24is a form of authoritarianism now in terms
26:29you
26:29of um marcy spoke about the gestapo so that the
26:34you
26:34the comparisons to fascism are always uh tricky
26:40because there's so much history involved um if one were to come
26:44you
26:44compare what's going on right now i don't think that bovino would be compared to the
26:49gestapo i think it would be more compared to the brown shirts or early um
26:54early stormtroopers that are that were that were very faithful to uh the
26:59leader and that were immune in a certain
27:04you
27:04and rogue um so i mean i think that would be those would be the comparisons that i would be making
27:09all right again although it's been debunked that uh ice includes in its ranks
27:14uh the head of the proud boys militia that took part in the january 6th attack on the
27:19uh u.s capitol in 2021 democratic lawmakers in congress earlier this month
27:24opened an inquiry to probe possible links between those pardons by president trump over the
27:29the deadly rioting to stop the certification of that uh 2021 election and
27:34the more than 12 000 new hires at uh ice this past
27:39the last year uh malcolm bega uh is it an exaggeration with bernard
27:44aquil just said that this is uh that ice is acting like uh
27:49a 1920s 30s styled uh uh a 1920s uh
28:15And I believe, it's my theory, but I believe...
28:18And the Insurrection Act, just to remind our...
28:20Our viewers, is when you can deploy federal troops.
28:25In that case...
28:25The governor of California asked for help.
28:28Yeah, yes.
28:29They did ask for help in...
28:30In 1992, but I think Trump, President Trump, is trying to create the condition...
28:35To use the Insurrection Act to deploy more and more federal...
28:40And the military across the states.
28:43And why can we go from that...
28:45But I think, President Trump is trying to prevent Americans to defend, to prevent...
28:50Americans to express dissatisfaction against the President, and maybe...
28:55In six months, eight months, if you try to prevent Americans to vote, it will be...
29:00It will be a dis-threatful situation.
29:03That's been talked about, but where's the proof?
29:05We have no proof yet, but as you can see, Minnesota, it's a tipping point.
29:09If...
29:10The President does not dis-escalate the situation, it will be...
29:15It could be a theory, and maybe in practice, we'll use the Insurrection Act.
29:19James...
29:20Look, what's been your experience in the...
29:24What's been your...
29:25Your experience in the last year when it comes to...
29:30How you've...
29:32Oh, we seem to have lost the connection there.
29:34The...
29:35Gremlins are in the system.
29:36Well, I'll put it to you, Bernard Arcour.
29:39The...
29:40Are courts acting differently than they were?
29:44Um...
29:45The fact...
29:45The fact that there have been some...
29:47Uh...
29:48Um...
29:49Orders...
29:50Or...
29:50Uh...
29:51Rulings that have been ignored.
29:52Are the courts acting differently one year on?
29:55Well, I would say that...
29:56Um...
29:57Well, I would say that, um...
29:58Well, I would say that, um...
30:00The lower courts, the lower federal courts, I mean, so we have a three tier.
30:05The lowest is the trial court, what's called the district.
30:10Those courts have been, I would say.
30:15At the front line, trying to prevent many of the.
30:20Excesses that have been taking place.
30:25Am I on?
30:29You're still on, yes.
30:30James Cook is back, I'm told.
30:32So go ahead.
30:32But go ahead, Dale.
30:34Finish your point.
30:34But, but, but.
30:35But I think what we've seen is that the Trump administration, which has really been.
30:40Working the federal system has been trying to move the cases up to.
30:45United States Supreme Court by, through the use of emergency stays.
30:50Of lower court opinions and that they've been very successful at doing that now.
30:55Supreme Court is predominantly conservative at this point, predominantly a Trump court.
31:00With at least six members who faithfully tow the Trump.
31:05administration's line and so the the the world has.
31:10changed in terms of the independence of the federal judiciary.
31:15James, there's no doubt about that.
31:17Let me bring in James Cook on this.
31:18James, is there.
31:20A feeling of the way the panelists have described some kind of creeping of.
31:25authoritarianism in your personal experience of the past year or is this just.
31:30all the standard stuff, the standard battles that you find in a U.S.
31:35court of law.
31:36Well, since the beginning, really.
31:40The last thing I heard was Mr.
31:42Blythe saying that Trump was trying to create the conditions for.
31:45insurrection.
31:46It feels like it on the ground.
31:48I mean, I'm I'm I'm here.
31:50I was in court.
31:51I was in court.
31:52I was in court.
31:53Three sort of community leaders.
31:55Got arrested last week because they participated in a church protest.
32:00They went to the church.
32:01They sort of interrupted the pastor.
32:03And, you know, we.
32:05Not.
32:06Not much happened after that.
32:07They left the church.
32:08They were arrested.
32:09Kristi Noem.
32:10Tweeted before.
32:11Before they issued the arrest.
32:12I'm sorry.
32:13I said.
32:14Moses tweeted before before they.
32:15They issued the arrest.
32:15We really didn't think it was going to happen.
32:17They rounded him up, put him in jail.
32:20And then, you know, the government, they made arguments.
32:25And they did some things that you don't normally see.
32:28So...
32:30And then, you know, the arguments that they made to maintain the people in detention...
32:35were spurious at best.
32:37But, I mean, it seemed like they really thought that...
32:40these things were going to win.
32:41So, ultimately, the people were...
32:45let out of custody.
32:50But these are people that really clearly didn't do a whole lot, right?
32:55Also, protesters are being arrested for protesting.
32:58Not the people that are...
33:00they're throwing stuff at the officers or, you know, anything like that.
33:05These are people that are just shouting and sometimes just watching.
33:08So, I think when you look at...
33:10all these things on the ground, people getting tear gas...
33:13just for observing...
33:15the protests.
33:16I think we're creating the conditions for Trump to sort of invoke...
33:20the Insurrection Act.
33:21Do you feel...
33:22Do you feel...
33:23sitting in Minneapolis?
33:24Do you feel...
33:25as though...
33:26this is getting people...
33:27more worked up?
33:28or...
33:29are they...
33:30out...
33:31by this heavy-handed reaction?
33:33Yeah, let me...
33:35let me...
33:35let me answer that...
33:36this way, okay?
33:37I...
33:38I grew up here.
33:39I'm from Minneapolis.
33:40In the 80s, I was...
33:41punk rock kid, skateboard, question authority.
33:44You know, that's...
33:45that's where I come from...
33:46Gen X.
33:47I think that we passed down that ethos...
33:50similar ethos, you know...
33:51that we had back in the 80s...
33:53divest from South Africa...
33:54you know...
33:55that...
33:56that type of thing.
33:57I think that we pass it on...
33:58and I think that...
33:59every time they do something...
34:00you can see...
34:02that people are gonna make...
34:04their...
34:05resistance known...
34:06you know...
34:07the...
34:08the millennials...
34:09the Gen X people...
34:10and...
34:10to have social media...
34:12to be more effective...
34:13and faster.
34:14So...
34:15I don't think that they're gonna be cowed...
34:17I think that every time...
34:18there's a...
34:19every time that...
34:20the administration...
34:21tries to do something...
34:22they are going to resist...
34:23and push back.
34:24You're seeing it.
34:25it's very organized...
34:26right?
34:27Uh...
34:28where...
34:29near where I live...
34:30we're...
34:30you know...
34:31what bronze is...
34:32that is the heartbeat...
34:33of the resistance...
34:34very organized...
34:35close...
34:35food...
34:36discuss...
34:37tactics...
34:38for what to do...
34:39when...
34:40when I...
34:40roll through your neighborhood...
34:41in a column...
34:42uh...
34:43the...
34:44the resistance is real.
34:45all right...
34:46and...
34:47let's take a listen...
34:48to the governor of Minnesota...
34:49Tim Waltz...
34:50he...
34:50was...
34:51Kamala Harris's...
34:52vice presidential...
34:53running mate...
34:54in the last election...
34:55he hails...
34:55from the...
34:56moderate wing...
34:57of the Democratic Party...
34:58um...
34:59Sunday...
35:00he...
35:00asked aloud...
35:01what would...
35:02Trump need...
35:03to get these...
35:04federal agents...
35:05of our state. You thought fear, violence, and chaos is what you wanted?
35:10You clearly underestimated the people of this state and nation.
35:15We are tired, but we're resolved. We're peaceful.
35:20But we'll never forget. We're angry.
35:25But we won't give up hope. And above all else, we are clearly unified.
35:30Marcy Shore, this was a...
35:35for people on the outside looking in, seems like a measured response.
35:40Would you have liked to have heard a more fiery one from the governor of Minnesota?
35:45I think he's been very good. You know, I've never been a political leader, but I think...
35:50one of the things he constantly has in his mind is that what the Trump administration...
35:55is trying to do is provoke the kind of violence that will then justify a more...
36:00violent crackdown. There's a whole kind of theory about this and the...
36:05field of history I study, which is Eastern Europe, the word provocatia, provocation in English...
36:10it doesn't quite have the same oomph, but so much of what the Trump administration is doing is trying...
36:15to provoke the violence that will then justify things like the Insurrection Act that will...
36:20then justify an attempt to turn the American military, you know, against American citizens.
36:25So I can see that...
36:26I can see that Tim Walts is walking a very fine line. I think he's...
36:30been very resolute. You know, I've generally been extremely admiring of him.
36:35Malcolm Bigga, your thoughts on...
36:37some people are saying, where's the... in France...
36:40some people are saying, where's the opposition in the United States?
36:42something like this happens here...
36:44you'd have millions...
36:45you'd have millions in the streets...
36:46it's true...
36:47and...
36:48there is no opposition, and when you compare to...
36:50there's no opposition, you're saying?
36:51there is no opposition yet, but...
36:53I mean, as much as...
36:55the George Floyd protest, it was the same city, it was the same state, the same governor,
36:59and the same mayor...
37:00it was six years ago, and if you remember, George Floyd was murdered on...
37:05May 25, and a week after, we had protests around the world.
37:10including in Paris?
37:11including in Paris...
37:12including in Paris, in France, in Japan, it was a week after...
37:15after the murder of George Floyd, but here...
37:18in this case, we had...
37:20running good...
37:21we had Alex Prady...
37:22it's been...
37:23uh...
37:24one weekend...
37:25since...
37:25Alex Prady...
37:26but...
37:27two people from Minnesota...
37:28killed...
37:29on video...
37:30and...
37:31I think it's...
37:32getting harder and harder to dissent...
37:34uh...
37:35in the US...
37:35because...
37:36maybe people are afraid.
37:37Is it...
37:38Bernard Harkour?
37:39Is it...
37:40Bernard Harkour?
37:40Is there more dissent to come, or less?
37:44Well, I think...
37:45there's more to come.
37:46I think that we saw...
37:47an amazing...
37:48uh...
37:49turnout...
37:50for...
37:50the protests...
37:51uh...
37:52in Minnesota...
37:53on Friday...
37:54they basically closed down the city...
37:55it was...
37:55a general strike...
37:56that they put into effect...
37:58um...
37:59and I think that the...
38:00the opposition is...
38:01uh...
38:02slowly...
38:03mounting...
38:04um...
38:05I'm...
38:06I...
38:07I agree that it's...
38:08um...
38:09that one might have...
38:10expected...
38:10more...
38:11but on this last...
38:12homicide...
38:14uh...
38:15uh...
38:16Alex Pretty...
38:17I mean...
38:18people...
38:19people...
38:20who...
38:21you wouldn't expect...
38:20the Democratic leadership...
38:21are actually coming out...
38:22and...
38:23uh...
38:24Governor Hochul...
38:25for...
38:25for instance...
38:26uh... Governor of New York State...
38:27Thanks, Chrissy...
38:28made a very...
38:30impressive...
38:31statement...
38:32um...
38:33calling on...
38:34Kristi Noem to resign...
38:35um...
38:36and...
38:37uh...
38:38saying that...
38:39people will...
38:40would be brought to justice...
38:40uh...
38:41uh...
38:42it was...
38:43it was a very powerful statement...
38:44unexpected...
38:45in a way...
38:45wouldn't expect this...
38:46from Governor Hochul...
38:47uh...
38:48and of course...
38:49Obama issued a...
38:50a...
38:51well...
38:52uh...
38:53kind of a...
38:54a...
38:55statement...
38:55that...
38:56it...
38:57was kind of an Obama...
38:58statement...
38:59so...
39:00but...
39:00that...
39:01that does...
39:02reflect the fact that...
39:03there is more...
39:04and more...
39:05uh...
39:06resistance...
39:07coming...
39:08I think...
39:09uh...
39:10uh...
39:10I would expect that...
39:11this...
39:12is...
39:13reviving in a way...
39:14the...
39:15Black Lives Matter movement...
39:16which was...
39:17uh...
39:18an...
39:19incredibly...
39:20strong...
39:21robust...
39:22movement...
39:23during the...
39:24summer of 2020...
39:25it was actually...
39:26it brought out...
39:27more people...
39:28than had ever...
39:29come out...
39:30in...
39:30protest...
39:31in the United States...
39:32and I would expect that...
39:33what's going on right now...
39:35with the ICE protests...
39:36is going to...
39:37reach the level...
39:38of...
39:39Black Lives Matter...
39:40so...
39:41James Cook...
39:42again...
39:43you know...
39:44since you're from...
39:45Minneapolis...
39:45Rene Good...
39:46Alex Peretti...
39:47both killed...
39:48in the same city...
39:49where there was...
39:50that...
39:51murder of...
39:50George Floyd...
39:51in...
39:522020...
39:53by...
39:54police officer...
39:55Derek Chauvin...
39:55was eventually...
39:57convicted...
39:58and...
39:59uh...
40:00that...
40:01uh...
40:02do...
40:03in...
40:04a way...
40:05uh...
40:05helped...
40:06to...
40:07uh...
40:08give...
40:09some people...
40:10a sense...
40:11that...
40:12there...
40:13was...
40:14what happened...
40:15then...
40:16versus...
40:17what's happening...
40:18now...
40:19we gotta remember...
40:19a couple things...
40:20like...
40:21if...
40:22if you're looking at the resistance...
40:23like...
40:24or sort of...
40:25the amount...
40:24protest that thing is a measure of whether or not of the of the feeling
40:29there's logistical things to consider number one it was summer it was it was the spring
40:34of uh you know 2020 when when george floyd happened and
40:39just it was spring right uh and then there
40:44right now we're talking about the middle of the winter in january which is usually the coldest
40:48month of minnesota
40:49it's literally you know 20 degrees below zero so if it's if the temperature is
40:54near oh that means the wind chill is going to be you know in the 40s so the fact that so many
40:59people are out is impressive uh i think then the you know another thing that happened is
41:04is that uh the police station got burned down in our neighborhood
41:09so that that actually drew a lot more media uh
41:14to what happened and then you know it kind of spread from there i would say this though
41:19well it doesn't mean if you're in the outside looking in you know you're not a mini
41:24apple's right now watching you know things things on the ground there is a lot more
41:29uh support from people from other states people are coming in
41:34to bring just just a volunteer brief supplies you know lend to the protests and then
41:39you know people are setting up you know ways to to communicate
41:44electronically i don't want to say exactly how because but you know so
41:49so you got a lot of that you got a lot of people working together plus you got to remember
41:54it's it's not just a protest for some people some in in the midst of all this
41:59there are people being deported that's what this all started from people being ripped from their
42:04homes taken to the whipple building where we are right now and they're helping
42:09and they're being held and they're detained for a period of time and they don't know how long
42:14and then they're shipped off to texas to fort bliss which is basically a concentration camp
42:19camp in fact i think it was a concentration camp for japanese people uh during world war
42:24too so uh there's that so you so you take
42:29a lot of people off the street that are just their their very life and safety and is
42:34is
42:34you get parents ripped from their children like who's going to take from their children
42:39it'd be irresponsible for those people to go out on the street and protest us
42:44it's not if there's a chance of that and yeah people are scared and they started taking us
42:49out on the street so the stakes are a lot higher and i think that you know
42:54you know
42:54they've tried to do this in l.a and a couple other states and they they um you know
42:59it wasn't really successful i think that minneapolis like you said gives them a turn
43:04a lot more training ground i've got to practice out on the streets of the major blue cities
43:09and you know and i think they're honing their tactics and techniques mercy
43:14and i'm sure one final question and it's kind of follows up from what james cook just said about the
43:19the sort of
43:19the political agenda and all of this the uh you mentioned
43:24the uh you mentioned earlier kind of a performative cruelty why
43:37you
43:29Now, that's an excellent question. I ask myself that.
43:34But we've seen it before historically. There's the narcotic of power.
43:39You know, there's Trump's perverse relationship with Putin. There's the narcotic of power.
43:44The narcoticism and desire to crush everybody else and create a cult of oneself.
43:49The plea to Europeans would be, do not normalize this.
43:54You know, do not.
43:54Do not think that this is an administration that, you know, maybe is a little bit more radical than it should.
43:59But can somehow be finessed or flattered or dealt with.
44:05You have to kind of look at it in the eye, you know, and see what's happening.
44:09And kind of shake yourself into seeing that this is not okay.
44:13This is not normal.
44:14You know, and that these are, you're looking into this abyss of moral nihilism.
44:19These are people who have no principles, no values, for whom other people's lives...
44:24This is literally meaningless.
44:25I mean, you watch them lie brazenly, shamelessly...
44:29Openly to the American people about murders we have just watched.
44:34We'll have to leave it there for now.
44:37I want to thank you, Marcy Shore, for being with us.
44:39From Toronto, I want to thank, as well, Malcolm Biga.
44:44Bernard Harkour in New York City and James Cook for being with us from Minneapolis.
44:49Thank you for being with us here in the France 24 decade.
44:51Thank you for having me.
44:54Thank you for having me.
44:59Thank you for having me.
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