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00:00At what point is there a tipping point? 17 days.
00:05After the shooting death of Renee Good, masked Immigrations and Customs Enforcement agents in Minneapolis.
00:10Again shooting dead a U.S. citizen. This time 37-year-old Alex Preti.
00:15Again, there's video evidence to contradict official narratives that the victims were...
00:20Acting as domestic terrorists. There's the race to gather evidence before...
00:25...can be tainted or destroyed. Media echo chambers. And a U.S. president who...
00:30...watches from on high. Why these shows of force? Will they discourage dissents?
00:35Or trigger a backlash? Do these hurriedly recruited federal agents...
00:40...armed with military-grade weapons answer to courts and lawmakers? Or solely to...
00:45...the U.S. president. And while passions reach boiling point in specific opposition...
00:50...strongholds, will the rest of the United States continue to go about its business?
00:55At what point is the rest of the population affected by this breaking of norms and pushing...
01:00...of boundaries? More broadly, has the veneer come off a superpower that claimed a certain...
01:05...exceptionalism in its values? Values on which it arguably won the Cold War? What's...
01:10...has changed? And is that change for good? Today in the France 24 debate, we're asking if I...
01:15...cases above the law. With us from Minneapolis, criminal defense attorney...
01:20...James Cook, thank you so much for being with us.
01:22James Cook, thank you so much for being with us.
01:23James Cook, thank you. Thank you for having me.
01:25From New York, Bernard Harcourt, professor of law and political theory at Columbia...
01:30...university. Good to see you. Good to see you. Thanks for having me.
01:35We co-published a video op-ed, We Study Fascism and We're Leaving the U.S. Last...
01:40...March. Marci Shore, chair in European Intellectual History at the University of Toronto's...
01:44...Monks...
01:45...School of Global Affairs and Public Policy. Welcome.
01:50Thank you. And welcome to Malcolm Biga, U.S. Politics Center at French New...
01:55...News Magazine, Le Nouvel Economiste. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being with us. On the go, by the way...
02:00...you can listen to the show, wherever podcasts are streamed. Yeah, the...
02:05...Anger palpable. And while the U.S. President announced he was dispatching his...
02:10...bordered Tsar. A judge was considering a request to temporarily stop the Trump...
02:15...administration's immigration crackdown in Minnesota. We've seen...
02:20...people once again this Monday flocking to a makeshift...
02:25...a memorial for that second victim of ICE agents in less...
02:30...than three weeks. Charlotte Hughes has more.
02:35A vigil at the site where protester Alex Pretti was shot dead by a federal immigration agent...
02:40...on Saturday. Among those present at the site were members of the Minnesota Bureau of...
02:45...criminal apprehension. The Bureau said on Saturday that federal agents had blocked its...
02:50...attempts to begin an investigation. There is a legal fight now and away over control of...
02:55...that. With Immigration and Customs Enforcement ICE agents still in place, Minnesota Governor...
03:00...Tim Walls addressed his words to the U.S. President.
03:03So my question is, what's the plan, Doc?
03:05Donald Trump, what is the plan? What do we need to do...
03:10...to get these federal agents out of our state? You thought fear, violence and chaos is what you want...
03:15...from us, and you clearly underestimated the people of this state and nation.
03:20In a post on social media, Donald Trump blamed what he called democratic...
03:25...chaos for the incident. Pretti's family say they want the truth. This is an...
03:30...analysis of videos of the killing of the 37-year-old intensive care nurse contradicts statements...
03:35...from the Trump administration that it was carried out defensively.
03:39Former U.S. President...
03:40...Barrack Obama on X said...
03:42The killing of Alex Pretti is a heartbreaking tragedy.
03:45It should also be a wake-up call to every American, regardless of party.
03:50...that many of our core values as a nation are increasingly under assault.
03:55Similarly, Bill Clinton has urged Americans to stand up and speak out.
04:00The U.S. Senator in Louisiana for the Republicans, Bill Cassidy says the credibility of ICE and the...
04:05Department of Homeland Security are at stake, and calls for a joint federal and state...
04:10...of investigation.
04:12Border Patrol commander Gregory Bovino says he will be...
04:15...awaiting the results of the investigation.
04:17...to uncover all those facts...
04:18I wasn't there...
04:19I wasn't there...
04:20...wrestling that assaultive subject that was assaulting Border Patrol agents.
04:24I was...
04:25I wasn't there...
04:26...wrestling him myself.
04:27So...
04:28I'm not going to speculate.
04:29I'm going to wait for that investigation to come...
04:30...so...
04:31...ah!
04:32No.
04:33Don't interrupt me.
04:35I'm going to wait till that investigation comes out until I make it...
04:35decision there. Democrats in Congress, meanwhile, are saying they will hold up homeland security.
04:40This amid a death that has provoked outrage.
04:45James Cook, before I ask you about the mood.
04:50Tell us about your weekend. I understand you were in court.
04:55Yes, I was in court actually on Friday.
05:00Doing the criminal defense portion for.
05:05The influencer known as the woke farmer and he was released from.
05:10Court and it was fine.
05:13The government made their arguments that he should.
05:15Be detained further. The judge didn't buy it.
05:18So, so ultimately he was released that.
05:20Afternoon went home. Things are kind of normal.
05:24Wake up.
05:25The next morning at about 6 AM and ice is attempting to raid his house.
05:30And this is after he was released by a federal judge.
05:33So what.
05:35Went to his.
05:36Went to the location where he was staying.
05:38Saw the aftermath.
05:40Half of their attempts to execute the warrant.
05:42They actually.
05:43Executed the warrant on this on the.
05:45wrong house.
05:46They.
05:47They.
05:48They entered a neighbor's house who has a.
05:49Has a pacemaker.
05:50They.
05:50Startled him.
05:51Uh.
05:52And then.
05:53So, you know.
05:54I kind of dealt with that.
05:55And then.
05:56Approximately.
05:57About an hour and a half later.
05:58They.
05:59They shot.
06:00They shot.
06:01Mr.
06:02Parade.
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06:29It's a tragedy, and it didn't have to happen, and we are braced.
06:34I'm looking for more based on what I've seen with my own eyes.
06:39I'm not even talking about it from a legal standpoint, ISIS pretty much operated recklessly.
06:44And it sort of escalated every single situation.
06:49And that's why people are dying.
06:52And that's kind of the mood while it's...
06:54They're trying to memorialize Mr. Pritchard's life, but at the same time, they're...
06:59They're trying to embrace it for more.
07:00Yeah, we're showing live images there.
07:04Or while you're speaking, we know that the...
07:09The border patrols are expected.
07:12That's the attorney general of Minnesota.
07:14We just saw a moment ago, before we talk about the...
07:19Again, the legal aspect of it.
07:22Marcy Shore...
07:24How do you make sense of this in light of what you just heard there from James...
07:29Somalia Cooke, these federal agents in his...
07:34personal instance, going to the wrong house or issuing.
07:39Warrants, despite what the courts had said.
07:44Well, first, I want to thank James Cook for being here and for being in Minneapolis.
07:49I've been watching Minneapolis, the streaming all weekend with kind of.
07:54Awe and admiration for so many of my fellow Americans who are actually there on the front line.
07:59You know, and with a lot of guilt for not being there myself.
08:04We're well, I'm not a lawyer, you know, I'm an intellectual historian.
08:07I teach Kant.
08:09I deal a lot with the realm of the metaphysical, but this is not subtle.
08:14We are way outside the realm of the rule of law.
08:17We have been way outside.
08:19The realm of the rule of law for a long time.
08:22We all watched.
08:24We all watched a point blank range like that.
08:28Those ice.
08:29Those ice agents murder Renee Goode and then murder Alex Pretti.
08:33And there was.
08:34Excellent video analysis done by NPR, done by The New York Times, done by Steve.
08:39CNN, it was not ambiguous what happened.
08:42We watched people fight.
08:44Sentire bullets with no legitimate provocation, you know, into the bodies of a.
08:49innocent Americans. We should care about everybody. And I'm also calling.
08:54on people who specifically care about Americans to care about Americans. We've all watched that
08:58happen.
08:59And then we've watched the government brazenly and shamelessly.
09:04And so, Marcy, we're lawyered up on this panel.
09:09Because there's Bernard Harcourt who's a lawyer, we have Malcolm Bigot who did legal
09:13stuff.
09:14Bernard, let me ask you, because Alex Prady had a license to carry a handgun.
09:19As Minnesota allows, you just heard Marcy describe the.
09:24Video evidence. It shows that this nurse was shot by.
09:29Two agents while trying to intercede on behalf of a protester than pepper sprayed by the agents.
09:34But is that video evidence enough?
09:39Well, look, the video evidence is what we have right now in the.
09:44Video evidence is the basis on which law enforcement, prosecutors.
09:49Attorney generals, et cetera, will decide whether or not to pursue.
09:54An investigation, which, of course, they must given the evidence, you said he had.
09:59A license to carry.
10:01Now, the.
10:02The.
10:04The official evidence from those videos is that the weapon that he was.
10:09carrying lawfully had been removed from him and taken out of the.
10:14melee before the officer and then the second office.
10:19officer began shooting 10 shots at him and killing him so.
10:24So, from the evidence we have so far, it's pretty clear that they're.
10:29didn't seem to be any risk to the officers or to bystander.
10:34And therefore, you know, it looks like a pretty simple.
10:39simple clay case of, you know, unreasonable use of law enforcement.
10:44legal force.
10:45So that's that's the question, of course.
10:49There's no immunity.
10:50There's no immunity.
10:51J.D.
10:52Vance had spoken about absolute immunity.
10:54He's fortunately retracted anything about that since there is no such thing.
11:00But there isn't immunity for a law enforcement officer.
11:03The.
11:04The only question is whether it's a reasonable use of lethal force.
11:09And that comes up all the time in police shootings.
11:14law enforcement use of lethal force.
11:16It's nothing new in any way.
11:18Um.
11:19The only thing that is new is that.
11:21The federal government has been trying to effective.
11:24shield.
11:25The incident from any kind of investigation.
11:28And in that.
11:29sense, it's a real departure from what we call the rule of law.
11:34Comb states in particularヤ and Mohammad get themselves attention to the now and 메뉴를
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11:36in from ordinary.
11:37inside other.
11:38westernly we call it vaccination.
11:39that's not done.
11:40in comparison.
11:41that's not done.
11:42that's not done.
11:43that's not done.
11:44that's not done.
11:45So, in the last minute.
11:46in the last minute.
11:47in the last minute.
11:48that's not done.
11:49that's not done.
11:50that's not done.
11:51that's not done.
11:52It's not done.
11:53So in the last minute.
11:56killed, what would you say on that score?
12:01Well, I mean, it's important that the federal agencies...
12:06have started investigations.
12:07I also understand that President Trump told Governor Walz...
12:11that the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension could conduct also an independent...
12:16investigation into the shooting of Alex Preddy.
12:18So it seems as if investigation...
12:21are going to be going forward, both at a federal and at a state level.
12:24What Trump...
12:26troubles me is the unprofessional way in which...
12:31these crime scenes have been treated...
12:36and the unprofessional way in which individual...
12:40you know, the ICE...
12:41agents have been operating...
12:44these...
12:45these are crime scenes...
12:46and they should be immediately...
12:49turned into a crime...
12:51where people aren't allowed to just...
12:53walk around or...
12:54lay wreaths or something...
12:55there's a lot...
12:56there's a lot of documentation that needs to be taken...
12:59that's always done...
13:01just ordinary.
13:02I mean, as...
13:03you know...
13:04as James Cook will tell you...
13:06any criminal defense attorney knows...
13:08any prosecutor knows...
13:09you have a crime scene...
13:10you need to...
13:11figure out where bullets were shot...
13:13where people were...
13:14where the blood is...
13:15all of that information...
13:16needs to be...
13:17in a way...
13:18uh...
13:19investigated...
13:20you know...
13:21when you had the Rene Good shooting...
13:22the agent...
13:24who actually...
13:26shot and killed her...
13:28just got in his car and left...
13:30I mean, that is...
13:31that's not...
13:32acceptable...
13:33by any standard...
13:34of law enforcement procedure...
13:36um...
13:37so...
13:38what's troubling is that...
13:39uh...
13:40these...
13:41the...
13:41there...
13:42there's such an...
13:43exceptionality...
13:44going on right now...
13:45that...
13:46it's hard to believe that...
13:48the federal investigator...
13:50is going to be...
13:51uh...
13:53doing a professional job...
13:54given that...
13:55the scene itself...
13:56has not been secured...
13:57et cetera...
13:59uh...
14:00what...
14:01what conclusions...
14:01should we draw...
14:02on...
14:03on this side...
14:04of the Atlantic...
14:05we even heard...
14:06the German...
14:06the chancellor...
14:07weigh in...
14:08at...
14:09a summit...
14:10this Monday...
14:11in...
14:12in Hamburg...
14:13about...
14:14well...
14:15.
14:11Well, we hope there's going to be a proper investigation.
14:13Why does this matter so much to Europeans?
14:16Because you see more and more French people around me are asking
14:21if America is still democracy.
14:23I will say America is not yet...
14:26It's still a democracy, but it's more and more an authoritarian state.
14:31And the issue we have is ICE.
14:34ICE was supposed to be a still...
14:36to be a federal agency.
14:38More and more ICE is a militia.
14:39It's a militia.
14:41Which doesn't work with favorable local forces.
14:46In Minnesota, you have 600 local forces working...
14:51under the Minister of State and Minneapolis City.
14:54And...
14:56Donald Trump deployed 3,000 federal agents and...
15:01because those agents don't work with the local forces and...
15:04Amy Klobuchar, the Demotrax Senate...
15:06expressed this yesterday.
15:08The Center for Minnesota.
15:09For Minnesota.
15:09It's impossible...
15:11for local forces to take back the power of federal agencies.
15:16took from Minnesota.
15:17took from Minnesota.
15:19So it's a real issue.
15:21for Tim Walsh, the governor, and Jacob Frey, the mayor of Minneapolis.
15:26So, James Cook, two questions then, concretely.
15:28Once a federal agency...
15:31takes over an investigation, that's it.
15:33Following up from what Malcolm just said.
15:35And second...
15:36Secondly, what are the chances that any of the shooters in...
15:41these two incidents will ever be brought to justice or convicted?
15:46So, just to answer, let's take each question of hers.
15:50So I think...
15:51the first question is...
15:53is...
15:54just in terms of...
15:55of the...
15:56investigation...
15:57we should work together.
15:58I mean...
16:00in most of these...
16:01cases...
16:01I've been involved in a lot of cases where there's federal and state over...
16:06left, which is most of the police cases that my office does.
16:10And I just want to...
16:11remind you, I worked for the gentleman who did the Rodney King versus City of...
16:16Los Angeles case.
16:17So, we have a lot of practice in doing cases that...
16:21involve federal and state issues.
16:23So, yeah.
16:23Usually, we work together.
16:25Usually, the state...
16:26the state and the federal government work together.
16:28In terms of the other question that you...
16:31that you posed...
16:32is whether or not these officers will be brought to justice.
16:35So...
16:36both professors kind of alluded to this about immunity.
16:40There is...
16:41the issue of qualified immunity.
16:43Most officers argue when...
16:44when you sue them.
16:46that they have qualified immunity saying that...
16:48you know, as long as they...
16:50basically...
16:51in layman's terms...
16:52as long as they acted within the law or thought that they were...
16:55they should be...
16:56immune from any type of liability.
16:58However, as the other professor...
17:01Martin said...
17:02you know...
17:03you can synthesize his philosophy...
17:06in law...
17:07and she studies comp.
17:09I mean...
17:09this is one of the situation...
17:11where you have an a priori perspective that.
17:16You know, the video should show you that officers did not fall.
17:21That they escalated the situation.
17:23They escalated the situation to open.
17:26At the point where they decided to shoot someone and then, you know, they didn't freak the car.
17:31So whether or not these officers will be brought to justice, I think that's.
17:36My job, that's our job is our law office and we're sure going to try.
17:41Brought to justice, do you think it will happen in a criminal court or in a civil court?
17:46I think that it's going to take a civil court.
17:51We just we just completed a large class, large, a large.
17:56Lawsuit in the city of Antioch, California, where.
18:01The officers were texting about how they frame people and how they how they.
18:06beat people up, you know, so on and so forth.
18:08And some of those officers actually went to jail.
18:11We had another case where where the officer, you know, he shot someone in the head.
18:16As he's walking away, it was caught on video.
18:18He went to jail.
18:19I only hope.
18:21Same thing happens in this case, but, you know, we have to go through the litigation process.
18:26Let me ask you about this, Marcy Shore, because you heard Malcolm Begas saying.
18:31People here in Europe wondering about the state of democracy in the United States.
18:36While we've been talking, the White House spokesperson says that.
18:41Donald Trump has demanded an end to, quote, resistance and chaos in Minneapolis.
18:46Your reaction.
18:49So I'm not a lawyer and.
18:51I'm not going to sound as careful and moderate.
18:54You know, I think we are no longer.
18:56Democracy, I think we are well into authoritarianism.
18:59I think there is a tremendous amount.
19:01of denial about that, perhaps, especially among Europeans who can.
19:06continue to hold on to this idea that America is the arsonist.
19:11of democracy, you know, and the land of the free and the home of the brave.
19:16Attorney Cook mentioned the Rodney King case.
19:19I don't know how many French viewers.
19:21are familiar with that, but I'm old enough to have been, you know, I'm.
19:26I'm old enough to remember that and I was at those demonstrations.
19:291992, yes.
19:31I was I was a second year student at Stanford University, so I was in the Bay Area.
19:35I was in.
19:36California, I was at those demonstrations against the police violence that was applied to.
19:41Sydney King, you know, and that was a moment when things in our country should have turned.
19:46because it was an illumination of the extent to which black Americans in particular.
19:51were subjected to tremendous amounts of arbitrary violence, you know, and you can.
19:56say that the original sin, you know, of my country is that we were built on slavery.
20:01never completely confronted that we sent racially segregated troops to Europe to.
20:06fight the Nazis, we had miscegenation laws in place until they were overturned in.
20:111967, and we have had mass incarceration and arbitrary violence.
20:16especially to communities and peoples of color since then, and there has not.
20:21been the kind of reckoning with that there needs to be, and now that kind of arbitrary.
20:26arbitrary violence that had been confined largely to several to certain groups.
20:31Now that arbitrary violence has encompassed all of society, you know, and the question.
20:36is, is there now going to be a reckoning and now is of course a difficult moment because.
20:41we have descended so far into authoritarianism and I just want to ask.
20:46add that that doesn't mean that there is nobody who can be trusted.
20:49there are heroic people out.
20:51there in sub freezing temperatures in Minneapolis.
20:54there are people in Washington who are out.
20:56there every day, you know, Jasmine Crockett, Chris Murphy, Jamie Raskin, AOC.
21:01you know, who are have absolute moral clarity.
21:04there are people I would trust personally.
21:06but.
21:06but they are not winning right now and the people in power have absolutely no respect or.
21:11consideration for democracy and the rule of law at all.
21:13so.
21:14Gregory Bovino, this is that.
21:16a field commander for ice.
21:17he's been the face of heavy handed tactics.
21:21he's been the face of heavy handed tactics in other cities like Chicago.
21:23he's been standing out, Morris.
21:25he's been standing out, Morris.
21:26he's been standing out, Morris.
21:26is he wearing this, uh, what is it?
21:28like a world war one style military coat for the.
21:31cold weather.
21:32uh, we, you saw it there a minute ago.
21:34now he's, that, and he's not wearing it in those images.
21:36but we saw it in that first picture, um, the, the, the coat, uh, what does that represent?
21:41for you?
21:42and, and, you know, is he above the law?
21:45above the law?
21:46He certainly believes he's above the law, if anyone watched that.
21:51That gruesome interview with Dana Bash on CNN yesterday where he absolutely refused.
21:56She was doing her job, but he absolutely refused to answer her questions.
21:59She said Department of Homeland Security.
22:01Claims that Predi was brandishing a weapon.
22:04Where here do you see brandishing?
22:06And he just brazenly dissimulated and lied in front of everybody.
22:11I mean, he's cosplaying some kind of Gestapo-like role, in my opinion.
22:16You know, or in my reading.
22:18These people feel that they are immune.
22:20These people feel.
22:21They feel that they can do whatever they want with impunity.
22:23My Ukrainian friends would call this.
22:25We have.
22:26Crime without punishment and punishment without crime.
22:28It's this role.
22:29It's this rule of the arbitrage.
22:31That word I keep using in Russian from the video, which is a word we.
22:36The arbitrariness that's always already tinged with tyranny and the potential for terror.
22:41That atomizes people because nobody knows who's going to be next.
22:44And it's something.
22:46That I think black Americans have experience of and most other Americans don't.
22:49And we haven't even developed yet.
22:51A language to articulate what's happening to us with these people who believe.
22:56that they're above the law, who now have gone from casual disregard.
23:01For other people's lives to performative statism.
23:04I mean, you look at Christ.
23:06Christy Dolan's quasi-sexual video op-eds in front of the prison in L.C.
23:11Salvador, these are people who are reveling in cruelty, you know, and I think Bovino is one.
23:16I think Bovino is one of them.
23:17I think he's reveling in cruelty.
23:18Are they above the law, Bernard Akour?
23:20Are they above the law, Bernard Akour?
23:21All right.
23:22Alright.
23:23Well, I think they are trying to.
23:26be above the law. Let me try and cover a few topics.
23:31That we've addressed with my lawyer hat on.
23:36And then with my lawyer hat off just quickly, because I think some listeners might be confused.
23:41On the questions of qualified immunity or what James.
23:46Cook was talking about. It's important just to distinguish between civil litigation and criminal litigation.
23:51And so we should keep in mind that those are two different tracks.
23:56Two different possibilities. There can be criminal pursuits of the office.
24:01There can be civil litigation brought by the estate of the family.
24:06The family of the victims, etc.
24:09And so.
24:11And that should, you know, who brings those is different, of course.
24:15It's the family.
24:16Families with their civil lawyers or it's the state or the federal prosecutors.
24:21And that's important in that context, in the civil context, there is qualified immunity.
24:26In the criminal context, which I was talking about earlier, there is.
24:31There's really no immunity.
24:33It's just a question of whether or not the office.
24:36All right, that's with my lawyer hat.
24:39Marcy was saying that.
24:41The lawyers are being more restrained than she is.
24:45But.
24:46I with my lawyer hat on or off.
24:49I mean, I've been arguing.
24:51For a long time now that we're in the middle of what I would call a counter revolution.
24:56We're using tactics that go back to counterinsurgency.
25:01And I think we see it here vividly.
25:06The way in which Alex Peretti or Ms. Good are being.
25:11Referred to as domestic terrorists, right?
25:13That's painting them as the internal.
25:16Enemy and in the counterinsurgency warfare paradigm.
25:21That's what you do.
25:22You find internal enemies.
25:24You eliminate internal enemies.
25:26You hear they're being shot by an.
25:31Active counterinsurgent force.
25:34And these are the.
25:36The ice agents.
25:39And of course, for the rest of us.
25:41You give us a lot of bread and circus.
25:43You win our hearts and minds with a lot of distractions.
25:46And we've seen that as well, since there's so many.
25:51Every day is a different news cycle, whether it's Greenland or.
25:56Or Venezuela, et cetera.
25:58But the point is that, yes, I mean.
26:01We are in a situation where the.
26:06Trump administration is trying to create a.
26:11unit here, the ice agents who are above the law.
26:16Who are protected more than others.
26:18Who are given immunity, even if.
26:21There is no legal immunity.
26:23And so that is.
26:26A form of authoritarianism.
26:28Now, in terms of.
26:31Marcy spoke about the Gestapo.
26:34So the.
26:34The comparison.
26:36The comparisons to fascism are always tricky.
26:41Because there's so much history involved.
26:43If one were to compare.
26:46Going on right now, I don't think that Bovino would be compared to the Gestapo.
26:50I think it would be.
26:51More compared to the Brown Shirts or early.
26:54Early storm.
26:56Members that are that were that were very faithful to the leader and.
27:01And that were immune in a certain and rogue.
27:06So, I mean, I think that would be those would be the comparisons that I would be.
27:09All right.
27:10Yeah.
27:11Although it's been debunked that ice includes in its ranks the head of the.
27:16Proud Boys militia that took part in the January 6th attack on the U.S. Capitol.
27:21In 2021, Democratic lawmakers in Congress earlier this month opened an inquiry to probe.
27:26The possible links between those pardons by President Trump over the deadly rioting.
27:31To stop the certification of that 2021 election and the more than 12.
27:36Thousand new hires at ICE this past year.
27:41Malcolm Bega, is it an exaggeration what Bernard Hercourt just said that this.
27:46This is that ICE is acting like.
27:51A 1920s, 30s styled militia?
27:55No.
27:56That's no different.
27:56And actually, I would like to go back to the example Marcy gave.
28:00She mentioned.
28:01the ronnie king case uh i wasn't born yet to during the events but i do
28:06remember the legal consequences of the ronnie king it was the last time the
28:11u.s uh federal government use the integration act
28:16and i believe it's my my theory but i and they were the insurrection act just to remind our
28:21viewers is uh is when you can deploy federal troops in that case
28:26the governor of california asked for help yeah that's yes they did ask for help in
28:42you
28:31in 1992. but i think trump president trump is trying to create the condition
28:36to use the intervention act to deploy more and more uh federal and
28:41the military across the states uh the states and uh why can we go from that
28:57you
28:46i think president trump is trying to prevent americans to dissent to prevent amer
28:51americans to express unsatisfaction dissatisfaction against the president and maybe
28:56in six months eight months if you try to prevent americans to vote it would be
29:01it would be um disrespectful situation that's been talked about but where's the proof
29:05we are
29:06we have no proof yet but as you can see minnesota it's a tipping point if
29:10you
29:11the president does not disescalate the situation it would be it would
29:23you
29:16it could be it could be a theory and maybe in practice we'll use the information act james
29:20cook
29:21what's been your experience uh in in the uh in what's been your experience
29:26experience in in the last year when it comes to
29:31how you've, oh, we seem to have lost the connection there.
29:36Well, I'll put it to you, Bernard Harcourt, the...
29:41Are courts acting differently than they were?
29:45The fact that...
29:46The fact that there have been some orders or...
29:51Rulings that have been ignored.
29:53Are the courts acting differently one year on?
29:56Well, I would say that...
30:01The lower courts, the lower federal courts, I mean, so we have a three-tier system.
30:06Of federal courts.
30:08The lowest is the trial court, what's called the district court.
30:11Those courts have been, I would say...
30:16At the front line, trying to prevent many of the...
30:21Excesses that have been taking place.
30:26Am I on?
30:29You're still on, yes.
30:31James Cook is back, I'm told.
30:32So go ahead.
30:32But go ahead, Dale, now.
30:34Finish your point.
30:35But...
30:36I think what we've seen is that the Trump administration, which has really been...
30:41Working the federal system, has been trying to move the cases up to the...
30:46United States Supreme Court through the use of emergency stays.
30:51Of lower court opinions, and that they've been very successful at doing that now.
30:56Supreme Court is predominantly conservative at this point, predominantly a Trump court.
31:01With at least six members who faithfully tow the Trump administration.
31:06administration's line.
31:07And so the world has changed.
31:11And so the world has changed in terms of the independence of the federal judiciary.
31:16There's no doubt about that.
31:17Let me bring in James Cook on this.
31:18James, is there...
31:21A feeling of the way the panelists have described some kind of creeping authority...
31:26authoritarianism in your personal experience of the past year?
31:29Or is this just...
31:31All the standard stuff, the standard battles that you find in a U.S.
31:36court of law...
31:37Well, since the beginning, really?
31:40I...
31:41The last thing I heard was Mr. Blythe saying that Trump was trying to create the conditions
31:45for...
31:46This direction.
31:47It feels like it on the ground.
31:49I mean, I'm...
31:50I'm...
31:51I'm here...
31:51I was in court...
31:52Three sort of, um...
31:54Community leaders...
31:55I was in court...
31:56Three sort of, um, community leaders...
31:56got arrested last week because they
31:58participated in a church
31:59protest.
32:01They went to the church, they sort of
32:02interrupted the pastor, and
32:05you know...
32:06Not much happened after that.
32:07They left the church.
32:08They were arrested.
32:09Kristi Noem...
32:11Tweeted before
32:13they issued the arrest.
32:16We really didn't think it was
32:17going to happen.
32:18They rounded him up, put him in
32:20jail.
32:21And then, you know, the
32:21government, they made
32:24arguments...
32:26And they did some things that
32:27you don't normally see.
32:30So...
32:31And then, you know, the
32:32arguments that they made to
32:34maintain the people in
32:35detention...
32:36were spurious at best, but I
32:38mean, it seemed like they
32:40really thought that these...
32:41these things were going to
32:41win.
32:42So...
32:43I...
32:44Ultimately, the people were...
32:46let out of custody.
32:51These are people that really
32:52clearly didn't do a whole lot,
32:55right?
32:56Also, protesters are being
32:57arrested for protesting.
32:59Not the people that are...
33:01throwing stuff at the officers or,
33:03you know, anything like that.
33:06These are people that are just
33:06shouting and sometimes just
33:08watching.
33:09So, I think when you look at...
33:11all these things on the ground,
33:12people getting tear gas just for
33:14observing the...
33:16protests.
33:17I think we're creating the
33:18conditions for Trump to sort of
33:20invoke...
33:21the Insurrection Act.
33:22Do you feel...
33:23Do you feel sitting in
33:24Minneapolis, do you feel...
33:26as though this is getting people
33:28more worked up or are they cow...
33:31owed to buy this heavy-handed reaction?
33:35Yeah, let me...
33:36let me answer that this way, okay?
33:37I...
33:38I grew up here.
33:39I'm from Minneapolis.
33:41In the 80s, I was...
33:42punk rock kid, skateboard,
33:44question authority.
33:45You know, that's...
33:46where I come from, Gen X.
33:47I think that we passed down
33:48that ethos.
33:50That...
33:51similar ethos, you know,
33:52that we had back in the 80s,
33:53that vest from South Africa,
33:55you know, that...
33:56that type of thing.
33:57I think that we pass it on,
33:58and I think that every time
33:59they do something...
34:01you can see
34:02that people are gonna make
34:04their...
34:06existence known.
34:07You know, the millennials,
34:09the Gen X people,
34:10and...
34:11to have social media
34:12to be more effective
34:14and faster.
34:15So...
34:16I don't think that
34:17they're gonna be cowed.
34:18I think that every time
34:19there's a...
34:19every time that...
34:21the administration tries
34:21to do something,
34:22they are going to resist
34:24and push back.
34:25You're seeing it as...
34:26very organized, right?
34:28Where...
34:29near where I live,
34:30where powwow...
34:31what Browns is.
34:32That is the heartbeat
34:32of the resistance.
34:34Very organized.
34:35Closed.
34:36Food.
34:37Discuss tactics
34:38for what to do
34:39when...
34:39when I...
34:41rolls through
34:41your neighborhood
34:42in a column.
34:43The resistance is real.
34:46All right, and let's
34:47take a listen
34:48to the governor
34:48of Minnesota,
34:49Tim Waltz.
34:50He...
34:51was Kamala Harris's
34:52vice-presidential running mate
34:54in the last election.
34:55He hails from...
34:56the moderate wing
34:57of the Democratic Party.
34:59Sunday, he asked...
35:01allowed what would Trump need
35:03to get these federal agents
35:05out of...
35:06out of our state.
35:07You thought fear,
35:09violence, and chaos
35:10is what you wanted from...
35:11us, and you clearly
35:12underestimated the people
35:13of this state and nation.
35:16We are tired,
35:17but we're resolved.
35:19We're peaceful.
35:21But we'll never forget.
35:24We're angry.
35:26But we won't give up hope.
35:28And above all else,
35:29we are clearly unified.
35:31Marcy Shore,
35:33the...
35:34this was a...
35:36for people on the outside
35:38looking in,
35:38seems like a measured response.
35:41Would you have liked to heard
35:42a more fiery one
35:43from the governor of Minnesota?
35:46I think he's been very good.
35:48You know,
35:48I've never been a political leader,
35:50but I think...
35:51one of the things
35:51he constantly has in his mind
35:53is that
35:54what the Trump administration...
35:56is trying to do
35:57is provoke the kind of violence
35:59that will then justify
36:00a more violent...
36:01violent crackdown.
36:02There's a whole kind of theory
36:04about this in the field.
36:06of history I study,
36:06which is Eastern Europe,
36:07the word provocatia,
36:09provocation.
36:10In English,
36:10it doesn't...
36:11doesn't quite have the same oomph.
36:12But so much of what
36:13the Trump administration
36:14is doing is trying...
36:16to provoke the violence
36:17that will then justify
36:18things like
36:19the Insurrection Act
36:20that will then...
36:21justify an attempt
36:22to turn the American military
36:23against American citizens.
36:25So...
36:26I can see that...
36:27I can see that
36:27Tim Walts is walking
36:28a very fine line.
36:30I think he's been...
36:31very resolute.
36:32You know,
36:32I've generally been
36:33extremely admiring of him.
36:35Mm-hmm.
36:36Malcolm Bigel,
36:36your thoughts on...
36:38Some people are saying,
36:39where's the...
36:39In France,
36:40some...
36:41people are saying,
36:41where's the opposition
36:42in the United States?
36:43Something like this
36:43happens here.
36:44You'd have millions...
36:46in the streets.
36:46It's true.
36:47And there is no opposition
36:49and when you compare to...
36:51There's no opposition
36:51you're saying?
36:52There is no opposition yet,
36:53but...
36:54I mean,
36:55as much as the...
36:56George Floyd protest.
36:57It was the same city.
36:58It was the same state.
36:59The same governor
37:00and the same mayor.
37:01It was six years ago
37:02and if you remember,
37:04George Floyd was
37:04murdered on...
37:06May 25
37:06and a week after,
37:09we had protests
37:09around the world.
37:11Including in Paris?
37:12Including in Paris.
37:13Including in Paris,
37:13in France,
37:14in Japan.
37:14It was a week after...
37:16the murder of George Floyd.
37:18But here,
37:19in this case,
37:20we had...
37:21running good.
37:22We had Alex Prady.
37:23It's been...
37:24one weekend
37:25since I...
37:26Alex Prady,
37:26but two people
37:27from Minnesota
37:28killed
37:29on video.
37:31And I think
37:32it's getting harder
37:33and harder
37:34to descend
37:34in the US.
37:36because maybe
37:36people are afraid.
37:38Is it...
37:39Bernard Harkour,
37:40is it...
37:41there more to send
37:41to come
37:42or less?
37:45Well, I think
37:45there's...
37:46more to come.
37:46I think that we saw
37:47an amazing turnout
37:50for the...
37:51protests
37:51in Minnesota
37:52on Friday.
37:53They basically
37:54closed down the city.
37:55It was a...
37:56general strike
37:56that they put
37:57into effect.
37:59And I think
38:00that the...
38:01opposition is
38:02slowly mounting.
38:05I'm...
38:06I agree
38:07that it's...
38:08that one
38:09might have
38:10expected...
38:11more.
38:12But on this
38:12last...
38:13homicide...
38:16Alex Pretty...
38:16I mean,
38:17people...
38:18people who
38:19you wouldn't expect
38:20in the...
38:21democratic leadership
38:21are actually
38:22coming out.
38:23And...
38:24Governor Hochul,
38:25for instance...
38:26Governor of New York
38:27State...
38:29made a very...
38:31aggressive statement
38:31calling on
38:34Kristi Noem
38:34to resign.
38:36and saying
38:38that people
38:39would be brought
38:40to justice.
38:41It was a very
38:43powerful statement.
38:44Unexpected,
38:45in a way.
38:46you wouldn't expect
38:46this from
38:47Governor Hochul.
38:49And, of course,
38:49Obama issued a...
38:51well...
38:53kind of a...
38:55a statement.
38:56that...
38:57it was kind of
38:58an Obama statement.
39:00So...
39:00but...
39:00but that...
39:01that does
39:01reflect the fact
39:02that there is
39:03more and more...
39:06resistance coming,
39:09I think.
39:10I...
39:11I would expect
39:11that this
39:13is reviving
39:14in a way
39:15the...
39:16Black Lives Matter
39:16movement,
39:17which was
39:18an incredibly...
39:20strong...
39:21robust...
39:22movement
39:23during the...
39:242020...
39:24summer of 2020.
39:26it was actually
39:27brought out
39:27more people
39:28than had ever
39:29come out
39:30in...
39:31protest in the
39:31United States.
39:32And I would expect
39:33that what's going
39:34on right now
39:35with...
39:36the ICE protest
39:36is going to
39:38reach the level
39:39of Black Lives Matter.
39:41So, James Cook,
39:43again,
39:44you know
39:44since you're
39:45from Minneapolis...
39:46Renee Goode,
39:46Alex Peretti,
39:47both killed
39:48in the same city
39:49where there was
39:49that murder
39:50of George...
39:51Floyd in 2020
39:52by police officer
39:54Derek Chauvin.
39:56Now, Derek Chauvin
39:57was eventually
39:58convicted
39:59and...
40:01that...
40:03in a way...
40:06helped to
40:07give some people
40:09a sense
40:09that there was
40:10justice.
40:11to a degree.
40:12Your thoughts
40:13on what happened
40:14then versus
40:15what...
40:16what's happening
40:16now.
40:18Well, you've got
40:19to remember
40:19a couple things.
40:20Like...
40:21if you're looking
40:22at the resistance
40:23like...
40:23or sort of
40:24the amount
40:24of protests
40:25and that thing
40:25is...
40:26the measure
40:26of whether
40:27or not...
40:28of the feeling...
40:30There's...
40:31logistical things
40:31to consider.
40:32Number one...
40:33It was summer.
40:33It was the spring
40:34of...
40:36you know...
40:362020
40:36when George Floyd
40:38happened.
40:39And...
40:39just...
40:41it was spring,
40:42right?
40:43And then...
40:44right now...
40:45we're...
40:46talking about
40:46the middle
40:46of the winter
40:47in January
40:47which is usually
40:48the coldest
40:48month of Minnesota.
40:50It's literally...
40:51you know...
40:5220 degrees
40:52below zero.
40:53So if it's...
40:54if the temperature
40:54is near zero...
40:55I mean...
40:56the wind chill
40:56is gonna be...
40:57you know...
40:58in the 40s.
40:58So the fact
40:59that so many people
41:00are out is impressive.
41:01I think...
41:03then the...
41:03you know...
41:03another thing
41:04that happened
41:04is...
41:05is that...
41:06the police station
41:08got burned down
41:09in our neighborhood.
41:10So...
41:11that...
41:11that actually
41:12drew a lot more media
41:13to...
41:15to what happened.
41:16and then...
41:16you know...
41:17it kind of spread
41:17from there.
41:18I would say this though.
41:20Well it doesn't...
41:21I mean...
41:22if you're on the outside
41:22looking in...
41:24you know...
41:24you're not in Minneapolis
41:25right now watching.
41:26you know...
41:26things...
41:27things on the ground.
41:28There is a lot more...
41:30uh...
41:30support...
41:31from people
41:31from other states.
41:33People are coming in
41:34uh...
41:34to bring...
41:35just...
41:36just to volunteer
41:36bring supplies...
41:38you know...
41:38lend to the protests
41:39and then...
41:40you know...
41:40people are sending...
41:41up...
41:41you know...
41:42uh...
41:42ways to...
41:43to communicate...
41:44electronically.
41:45I don't want to...
41:46say exactly how...
41:47because...
41:48but...
41:48you know...
41:49so...
41:50so you got a lot of that...
41:51and you got a lot of people
41:51working together...
41:52plus...
41:53you got to remember...
41:55it's...
41:55it's not...
41:56it's just a protest
41:56for some people...
41:57some...
41:58in the midst of all this...
42:01there are people being deported...
42:02that's where this all started from...
42:03people are being rid...
42:04from their homes...
42:05they...
42:06taken to the Whipple building...
42:07where...
42:07we are right now...
42:09and they're held...
42:10and they're detained...
42:11for a period of time...
42:13and...
42:13and they don't know how long...
42:14and then they're shipped off.
42:16to Texas...
42:16to Fort Bliss...
42:18which is basically...
42:18a concentration camp...
42:20in fact...
42:20I think...
42:21it was a concentration camp...
42:22for Japanese people...
42:24during World War II...
42:25so...
42:26there's that...
42:28so you...
42:28so you take...
42:29a lot of people off the street...
42:31that are just...
42:31their...
42:32their very life...
42:33and safety...
42:33is...
42:34is at stake...
42:35you get...
42:36parents...
42:37ripped...
42:37from their children...
42:38like...
42:38who's going to take...
42:39from their children...
42:40it'd be...
42:40irres...
42:41responsible...
42:41for those people...
42:42to go...
42:42out on the street...
42:43and protest...
42:44if that...
42:45if there's a chance...
42:46and yeah...
42:47people are scared...
42:47and...
42:48they started taking...
42:49U.S. citizens...
42:50so...
42:51stakes are a lot higher...
42:52and I think that...
42:54you know...
42:54Trump tried to do this...
42:55in L.A.
42:56and a couple...
42:56other states...
42:57and they...
42:58they...
42:59you know...
43:00it wasn't really...
43:01successful...
43:01I think that...
43:02Minneapolis...
43:03like he said...
43:04gives them a training ground...
43:05we've got to...
43:06practice out on the...
43:07streets of...
43:07the major...
43:08blue cities...
43:09and...
43:10you know...
43:11and I think...
43:11they're honing...
43:12their tactics...
43:12and techniques...
43:14Mercy Shore...
43:15one final question...
43:15and it's...
43:16kind of...
43:16follows up...
43:16from what...
43:17James Cook...
43:17just said...
43:18about the...
43:19the...
43:19sort of...
43:19the...
43:20political...
43:21agenda...
43:22in all of this...
43:23the...
43:23you mentioned earlier...
43:25kind of a...
43:26performative...
43:27cruelty...
43:28why?
43:31Now...
43:31that's an...
43:32an excellent question...
43:33I ask myself...
43:34that every day...
43:35but we've seen...
43:36it before...
43:36historically...
43:37there's the...
43:38narcotic of power...
43:40you know...
43:40there's...
43:41Trump's...
43:41perverse...
43:42relationship...
43:42with Putin...
43:43there's...
43:44the...
43:44narcissism...
43:45and desire...
43:46to crush...
43:46everybody else...
43:47and create...
43:48a cult of oneself...
43:49in my plea...
43:50to Europeans...
43:51would be...
43:51do not...
43:52normalize this...
43:54you know...
43:54do not think...
43:55that this is...
43:56an administration...
43:57that...
43:57you know...
43:57maybe is a little bit...
43:58more radical...
43:59than it should be...
44:00but can somehow...
44:01be finessed...
44:02or flattered...
44:03or...
44:03dealt with...
44:05you have to kind of...
44:06look at it...
44:06in the eye...
44:07you know...
44:08and see what's happening...
44:09and kind of...
44:09shake yourself...
44:10and...
44:10just...
44:11seeing that...
44:11this is not...
44:12okay...
44:13this is not...
44:13normal...
44:14you know...
44:15and that...
44:16these are...
44:16you're looking into this...
44:17abyss of moral nihilism...
44:19these are people...
44:19who have no principles...
44:21no values...
44:22for whom...
44:23other people's lives...
44:24is literally meaningless...
44:25I mean...
44:26you watch them...
44:26lie...
44:27brazenly...
44:28shamelessly...
44:29openly...
44:30to the American...
44:31people...
44:31about murders...
44:32we have just...
44:33watched...
44:35we'll have to...
44:36leave it there for now...
44:37I want to thank you...
44:37Marcy Shore...
44:38for being with us...
44:39from Toronto...
44:40I want to thank...
44:41as well...
44:42Malcolm Biga...
44:44Bernard Harkour...
44:44in New York City...
44:45and James...
44:46Cook...
44:46for being with us...
44:47from Minneapolis...
44:49thank you...
44:49for being with us...
44:50here in the France...
44:5124...
44:51thank you for having me...
44:56I want to thank you...
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