00:00Yeah, a few heads of state making the trip to Hamburg for this summit.
00:05Most among them was France's president.
00:08Relations between France and France.
00:10France's Emmanuel Macron and Germany's Friedrich Mertz have been.
00:15And of late, a bit, how should we put it?
00:20I'd say Janet Seuss is with us, researcher for the Committee for the Study of Franco-German
00:24Relations.
00:25At the French Institute of International Relations, IFRI, you've just published a study on.
00:30How Germany makes its European policy, there you see it.
00:35I said chaotic.
00:36Maybe it's not chaotic.
00:37Let's just say it's a...
00:40It's not the bromance we expected.
00:43And in the face...
00:45Last week of superpower pressures from Russia, but also...
00:50Also from the United States, other Europeans are worried.
00:54They want the...
00:55Germans and the French get along better.
00:57What are the points of discord here?
00:59So first of all, I...
01:00I would say that we are in this time, in this phase of the relationship maybe where...
01:05The relationship is put to a test, whereas in the beginning...
01:10One year ago, there was this bromance, this narrative about that very...
01:15Symbolic, of course, first meetings between Macron and Merz, but now as things...
01:20Are materializing and we have to...
01:22We have to put it down to break it down.
01:25To different aspects, be it in the economic field, in the trade field, in the defense sector...
01:30The cooperation, it's becoming more difficult because it's becoming concrete, but there's always been...
01:35Divergences, structural divergences between France and Germany, so we have...
01:40A very big divergence in the trade sector, where Germany advocates...
01:45For free trade deals all over the world and France is a bit more reluctant and a bit more...
01:50Sectionist, you could also say, from a German viewpoint, then you have the defense...
01:54Corporate...
01:55The cooperation, but we also do have some leeway when it comes to, for example...
02:00The cooperation in the energy sector, so there is also some positive signs and also some common measures...
02:05That are announced for more EU competitiveness.
02:07Alright, so let's break down the first two, because again, this is...
02:10It's all about Europe building up its self-reliance in the face...
02:15Of a US ally that is not as reliable to them as they want...
02:20The difference over Mercosur...
02:21The difference over Mercosur...
02:25Is that surmountable?
02:26I mean, anyway...
02:28The...
02:29The...
02:30The...
02:30The deal was adopted at the end in the Council of Ministers and France was bypassed...
02:35by the other member states.
02:37This was, of course, a tough...
02:40The situation between France and Germany, because Germany was hoping to be able...
02:45to convince France by giving in and by giving some...
02:50some compromises by giving in to the...
02:52The...
02:53The...
02:54Concerns that they had.
02:55The carve outs on...
02:56That they had...
02:57The carve outs on...
02:58The carve outs on...
02:59The carve outs on...
03:00... on...
03:01... on...
03:02pressure on the domestic side here
03:04but Germany didn't really convince
03:06Macron at the end
03:07they had to give in to this political
03:08pressure
03:09but there's
03:12other situations where we can see that
03:15both states are still pretty much
03:17alliance so when it comes to Donald Trump
03:18they were both in favor
03:20of
03:22but Germany still has this export-driven model
03:27which the French don't have
03:28so is that something that's insurmountable
03:30and that's why it's easy
03:32for Germany to
03:34to conclude
03:36this free trade
03:37agreements
03:37whereas for France
03:38it's a bit
03:39a different story
03:42but I think
03:42France is really
03:44worried about
03:45this agricultural sector
03:46and
03:47Germany has other type of industries
03:48especially the automotive industry
03:50very export-driven
03:52so
03:52it has a hard time
03:53saying
03:54it doesn't want to
03:56it
03:57it wants to stop exporting
03:58it really wants to continue exporting
03:59all over the world of course
04:00and then
04:01there's
04:01defense
04:02where the arguments run twofold
04:04there's
04:04whether
04:04each side accuses the other
04:06of not leveling up enough
04:08the French
04:08not spending enough
04:09are accused of not spending enough on Ukraine
04:11the Germans accused of not spending enough
04:14period
04:15and
04:16the two
04:17don't get along
04:18when it comes to
04:19for instance
04:19plans to build weaponry
04:21to
04:21together
04:22yeah
04:22on the one hand
04:23we can see that there is
04:24pretty much of an alignment
04:25when it comes to the rhetoric
04:26side
04:27so
04:27there is
04:27this
04:28what
04:28Macron already
04:30said
04:30strategic autonomy
04:31discourse going on
04:32since
04:332017
04:34and Germany
04:35didn't really apply
04:36back in the day
04:37under
04:37Merkel
04:38or
04:38Scholz
04:39and now
04:39Friedrich Merz
04:40you really
04:40welcomes
04:41this
04:41concept
04:42he's also
04:42in favor
04:43of
04:43producing
04:45more
04:45European
04:46based
04:46weapon systems
04:47as such
04:48but when it comes to
04:49the concrete projects
04:49between France
04:50and Germany
04:50so the
04:51F
04:51has the fighter jet
04:52future combat air
04:53system especially
04:54and then we have
04:55the MGCS
04:55the main
04:56round
04:56combat
04:57system
04:57are both those
04:58projects
04:58dead
04:59they're not
05:00dead
05:00the
05:01the tank
05:03project
05:03is a bit
05:04more
05:04reliable
05:05however
05:05for the
05:06future combat air
05:07system
05:08there is
05:09a very
05:09like a
05:10hard competition
05:11going on
05:11because some
05:11people are saying
05:13Europe is facing
05:14an existential
05:14crisis
05:15and that the
05:16last week
05:16the threats
05:17against Greenland
05:18what's happening
05:18in Ukraine
05:19are
05:20existential
05:20crises
05:21and they feel
05:22as though
05:22they don't
05:23understand
05:23why the
05:24French and
05:24the Germans
05:25aren't getting
05:25along
05:25that's
05:25definitely
05:26a sense
05:26of urgency
05:27I feel
05:27however
05:28yeah
05:29there is
05:29this
05:29competition
05:30going on
05:30especially
05:30between
05:31DASO
05:31on the
05:32one
05:32hand
05:32and
05:33Airbus
05:34on the
05:35one
05:35on the
05:35other
05:35hand
05:36there's
05:36also
05:36the
05:37Spanish
05:37side
05:37the
05:39Spanish
05:39part
05:39inside
05:40so
05:40it's
05:40all
05:40a
05:40question
05:41about
05:41technological
05:42leadership
05:42France
05:43worried
05:45about
05:45losing
05:46its
05:46leadership
05:46about
05:46losing
05:47its
05:47intellectual
05:47property
05:48and
05:49Germany
05:49having
05:50rather
05:51like
05:51a sense
05:51of
05:52wanting
05:52to
05:52share
05:53knowledge
05:53to
05:54work
05:54together
05:55collaborative
05:55collaborative
05:56you
05:56but
05:57at
05:57the
05:57end
05:57just
05:57giving
05:58money
05:58without
05:58having
05:59necessarily
05:59the
06:00savoir
06:00faire
06:00so
06:01that's
06:01so
06:01last
06:02Friday
06:02Friedrich
06:03Mertz
06:04goes to
06:04Rome
06:05sees
06:06Georgia
06:07Maloney
06:07the
06:08far
06:08right
06:08head
06:09of
06:09a
06:09coalition
06:09government
06:10and
06:11there
06:11extols
06:13that
06:13they
06:14can
06:14get
06:14along
06:14together
06:15they
06:15can
06:15help
06:15to
06:15simplify
06:16Europe
06:16the
06:17message
06:17was
06:17kind
06:17of
06:18like
06:18is
06:18this
06:19the
06:19new
06:19motor
06:20for
06:20the
06:21EU
06:21or
06:21is
06:22France
06:22sidelined
06:23or
06:23what did
06:25you make
06:25of this
06:25Friday
06:26visit
06:26Rome
06:27I
06:27think
06:27it's
06:27rather
06:28complimentary
06:28because
06:29what
06:30we
06:30have
06:30to
06:31put
06:31into
06:31context
06:31is
06:32and
06:32what
06:32we
06:32have
06:32to
06:32remember
06:33is
06:33that
06:33there
06:33has
06:34been
06:34a
06:35dialogue
06:35going
06:35on
06:36already
06:36under
06:36the
06:36previous
06:37German
06:37government
06:38under
06:38Olaf
06:39Scholz
06:39in
06:402023
06:41Italy
06:41and
06:41Germany
06:42signed
06:42a
06:42bilateral
06:43agreement
06:43for
06:44an
06:44action
06:44plan
06:44and
06:45now
06:45this
06:46is
06:46really
06:46update
06:46of
06:47this
06:47action
06:47plan
06:47by
06:47materializing
06:48it
06:48into
06:49concrete
06:50projects
06:50which
06:51are
06:51developed
06:51further
06:51so
06:52of
06:52course
06:52Italy
06:53and
06:53Germany
06:54have
06:55a lot
06:55of
06:55things
06:56in
06:56common
06:56there
06:56major
06:56industrial
06:57powers
06:57within
06:58the
06:58EU
06:58sometimes
06:58it's
06:59a bit
06:59easier
06:59maybe
07:00to
07:00collaborate
07:00in
07:01terms
07:01of
07:01industrial
07:01culture
07:02but
07:03it
07:03can't
07:04replace
07:04the
07:04So
07:04is
07:05the
07:05beating
07:05heart
07:06of
07:06the
07:06EU
07:06shifting
07:07from
07:07a
07:07Paris
07:08Berlin
07:08axis
07:08to
07:09a
07:09Berlin
07:09Rome
07:09axis
07:10I
07:10wouldn't
07:10say
07:10that
07:11because
07:11we
07:11also
07:11have
07:12other
07:12actors
07:12within
07:12the
07:13EU
07:13and
07:13we
07:13are
07:13seeing
07:14rather
07:14a
07:14multiplication
07:15of
07:16different
07:17forms
07:19different
07:20flexible
07:20forms
07:21within
07:21the
07:21EU
07:22so
07:22it's
07:22rather
07:22mililateral
07:23partners
07:25like
07:26the
07:26Weimar
07:26triangle
07:27Weimar
07:27Plus
07:28and
07:28we
07:28have
07:28E3
07:29with
07:29the
07:29UK
07:30also
07:30super
07:30important
07:31in
07:31the
07:31defence
07:31corporation
07:32and
07:32then
07:32we
07:33have
07:33France
07:33and
07:34Italy
07:34now
07:35becoming
07:35important
07:36place
07:36of
07:37course
07:37because
07:37Merz
07:38also
07:38knows
07:38that
07:39the
07:39time
07:39frame
07:39to
07:40shape
07:40your
07:40life
07:41is
07:40European
07:41policy
07:41with
07:42Macron
07:42is
07:42quite
07:43limited
07:43as
07:43there
07:44will
07:44be
07:44presidential
07:45elections
07:45taking
07:46place
07:46in
07:462027
07:47How about
07:48ordinary
07:48Germans
07:49do they
07:49prefer
07:49to
07:49do
07:50business
07:50with
07:50the
07:50Italians
07:51than
07:51with
07:51the
07:52French
07:52There
07:52is
07:52a
07:53very
07:53narrow
07:53business
07:54relationships
07:54between
07:55Italy
07:55and
07:56Germany
07:56even though
07:57there's
07:57this
07:57kind
07:57of
07:57republican
07:58firewall
07:59in
07:59Germany
08:00that
08:00you
08:00have
08:00like
08:01in
08:01France
08:01and
08:02Maloney
08:03is
08:03from
08:03the
08:04far
08:04right
08:04that's
08:04true
08:04and
08:05that's
08:05something
08:05that
08:06is
08:06criticized
08:06also
08:07by
08:07the
08:07coalition
08:07partner
08:08the
08:08social
08:08democrats
08:09within
08:10the
08:10German
08:10government
08:11that
08:11Mertz
08:12doesn't
08:13shouldn't
08:14team
08:15up
08:16too
08:16much
08:16with
08:17Meloni
08:18and
08:18the
08:18ECR
08:19the
08:19ECR
08:19European
08:20Conservative
08:20and
08:20Reformist
08:21Party
08:21within
08:21the
08:22European
08:22Parliament
08:22and
08:23on
08:23the
08:23other
08:23hand
08:24these
08:24are
08:24a
08:24talk
08:24coalition
08:25so
08:25there's
08:25not
08:26a
08:26systematic
08:26collaboration
08:27going
08:28on
08:28between
08:28these
08:29political
08:29families
08:30getting
08:31back
08:31to
08:31Paris
08:32and
08:32Berlin
08:33would
08:33you
08:33say
08:33the
08:34relation
08:34is
08:34in
08:34crisis
08:35right
08:35now
08:36no
08:36definitely
08:37not
08:37there's
08:37always
08:37been
08:38divergences
08:39what we
08:39can
08:39see
08:40is
08:40definitely
08:40an
08:41improved
08:42relationship
08:42in the
08:43sense
08:43that
08:43it's
08:43way
08:44more
08:44regular
08:44that
08:45Paris
08:45and
08:45Berlin
08:45talk
08:46to
08:46each
08:46ever
08:46and
08:46there
08:46is
08:47a
08:47Franco-German
08:47roadmap
08:48that
08:48dates
08:48back
08:49to
08:49august
08:492025
08:50the
08:51problem
08:51is
08:51that
08:51there
08:51has
08:52been
08:52so
08:52many
08:52government
08:53reshuffles
08:54both
08:55governments
08:55had a
08:55hard
08:56time
08:56implementing
08:57what
08:58they
08:58have
08:58been
08:58announced
08:59in
08:59this
08:59Franco-German
09:00roadmap
09:00especially
09:01focusing
09:01on
09:01EU
09:02competitiveness
09:03because
09:03was
09:03Emmanuel
09:04Macron
09:04seemed
09:05like
09:06the
09:06strong
09:06one
09:06next
09:06to
09:07Olaf
09:07Schultz
09:07with
09:07the
09:08weak
09:08weaknesses
09:08the
09:09coalition
09:10issues
09:10that
09:11he
09:11had
09:11now
09:11with
09:12the
09:12French
09:12government
09:12falling
09:13consistently
09:13with
09:14Macron
09:15being
09:15term
09:15limited
09:16and
09:16leaving
09:16office
09:18is
09:18the
09:19French
09:19the
09:19weaker
09:19link
09:20in
09:20this
09:20case
09:21there
09:21is
09:21kind
09:22of
09:22a
09:22power
09:22shift
09:23that
09:23we
09:23can
09:23sense
09:24to
09:24a
09:24certain
09:24extent
09:25however
09:25I
09:26would
09:26say
09:26that
09:27Macron
09:27still
09:28keeps
09:28a
09:29certain
09:30momentum
09:30and
09:30keeps
09:31his
09:31power
09:32when
09:32it
09:32comes
09:32to
09:32steering
09:33foreign
09:33policy
09:34as
09:34he
09:34has
09:34a
09:35very
09:35vocal
09:36stance
09:36and
09:36very
09:36important
09:37role
09:38constitutionally
09:39speaking
09:39as
09:40being
09:41the
09:41French
09:41president
09:42which
09:42is
09:42not
09:42so
09:43much
09:43the
09:43case
09:43for
09:43a
09:43German
09:44chancellor
09:44in
09:45terms
09:45of
09:45position
09:47and
09:47possible
09:48possibilities
09:49so
09:49there
09:50is
09:50still
09:50this
09:50permanent
09:50role
09:51of
09:51Macron
09:51however
09:52of
09:53course
09:53there's
09:53a
09:53lack
09:53of
09:53credibility
09:54when
09:55it
09:55comes
09:55to
09:55other
09:55policy
09:57domains
09:58especially
09:58the
09:58interior
09:59affairs
10:00of
10:00France
10:00all
10:01right
10:01Janet
10:01so
10:01many
10:02thanks
10:02for
10:02joining
10:02us
10:02here
10:03on
10:03stay
10:04with
10:04us
10:04there's
10:05more
10:05to
10:05come
10:05more
10:05news
10:06plus
10:06the
10:06day's
10:06business
10:07and
10:07sports
10:08business
10:10business
10:11business
10:12business
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