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00:00the question that i wanted to ask was because we are on the cusp of the 76th republic day
00:10of india tomorrow so on this occasion i wanted to ask you about the idea of india so right now
00:20when we look at news and anyone who is reasonably aware would know that you know we are living in a
00:26world of identity politics and societal changes and everyone you talk to they have their own idea
00:33of india based on what side of political spectrum they are on and so on i wanted to ask you in this
00:40tnh how do we preserve and evolve the idea of india and what it is according to you you see india is
00:46not really an idea first thing ideas are things of the ego ideas or things of desire and imagination
01:05behind every idea is an ideator and the ideator is looking to get something for himself via the idea
01:21that's not what india is nation we talk of the indian nation what is a nation first thing
01:39basics fundamentals what is a nation
01:42nation nation is a set of people it could be a very large set of people it could be a billion
01:56people it could be five billion people the number doesn't matter it's a set of people
02:03people who are together on some ground you get this who are united on some basis
02:21some basis right now that doesn't seem like a very deep thing to say
02:32because whenever people are together obviously there is some or the other basis present
02:40right
02:47that basis is the basis of nationhood
02:53and just as
02:56all the reasons
02:58that bring people together are not of the same quality
03:09similarly the foundations of all nations are not equally deep
03:16how deep is the foundation of a nation depends on the depth of what keeps those people together
03:35right
03:38right five people may come together to have a good time in the evening
03:49nothing else to do
03:52have a spare hour
03:56let's just go out and gossip and that's what is keeping them together at this hour
04:01now this is togetherness on a very frimsy basis
04:08a basis is indeed present but the basis has no depth
04:13these five people have come together
04:17due to some little shallow reason
04:19this togetherness will bring no goodness to these five or to the others
04:32right
04:34similarly nations
04:38have their basis
04:39a set of people
04:47a set of people
04:48a community
04:49where people identify with each other right
04:51they say we are we are one we are together we have something in common
04:57i'm more like this one than that one
05:00i identify with this one
05:06what is the basis of that identification
05:10why do these people
05:14think of each other
05:18as brothers and sisters
05:24or members of one community
05:26that's the question to be asked
05:30and that's a very very important question
05:34because mind you
05:38we have seen
05:41history tells us that nations can even be founded on
05:46very
05:49narrow kind of
05:54basis
05:56very shallow foundations
06:01there are instances
06:04of nations where the founding principle
06:08was food habits
06:11we all eat the same way therefore we are a nation
06:18there are a lot of nations
06:21in the modern world where one of the important basis
06:26is language we speak the same language therefore we are a nation
06:33and what to say of geography
06:38we live in areas
06:42that are geographically close by or adjacent to each other
06:46therefore we are a nation
06:55therefore we are a nation
07:00are you getting it
07:03so you live in the house next to mine hence you are my brother
07:08this kind of a logic
07:13what makes you all
07:15call each other brothers and sisters
07:18well you know we all live
07:21within one kilometer of each other hence we are brothers and sisters
07:26there are so many nations that are founded on this
07:29place we all live at places that lie next to each other therefore we are
07:38a nation one nation and why are those people
07:45not the same nation because they live far away
07:48hence they are separate we can even call them enemies because they live at a distant place
07:59does this make any sense it makes no sense color of the skin
08:04we all are little green men and women therefore we constitute a nation
08:25and they are tall blue ones so they are aliens
08:29what kind of unity is this what kind of identity is this
08:42ethnicity genetics
08:49purity of blood
08:52whatever that means
08:57of course religion
08:59the huge elephant in the room
09:06we follow the same belief system the same dogma
09:09the same books
09:12the same god therefore we are a nation
09:21are you getting it
09:25so mostly nations are founded on such things
09:29we follow the same tradition hence we are a nation
09:36you look at the seven of us
09:39we believe
09:41in the same superstitions therefore we are a nation
09:49now this is
09:51this is divisive
09:52this is violent
09:53this is full of ignorance this leads to suffering for one and all
10:04fortunately
10:08India
10:13has a much deeper national foundation
10:16and hence i said india is not an idea
10:25what is the foundation
10:28india was wise enough to realize
10:35that anything
10:37coming coming from the human mind is going to be limited
10:44that's what india did
10:47went into itself
10:49when the entire world
10:52was taking an outward direction india went into itself
10:55and going within it realized
11:01the limits within the pettiness within
11:04the constraints within the darkness within
11:09the ideator within the one who keeps coming up with these smart ideas
11:13how stupid is that ideator
11:19you realize only when you
11:21you develop the courage to look at yourself
11:26so india said
11:30two people coming together on the basis of an idea or thought or principle
11:36can never be a truly great thing
11:45i believe in something you to believe in something we share thoughts
11:49so we come together and we call ourselves a nation that can never be a good thing
11:56now once you say that all possible
11:59principles that could become the foundation of indian nationhood
12:11they go out of the window
12:13because everything is mental
12:14and what is coming from the mind
12:17would be little and divisive
12:20i'm saying india saw that
12:25so what did india then put above all nationalistic principles
12:29india said
12:31ruthless inquiry into the self
12:36we will not stand for a principle
12:41we will stand for a detached investigation into all principles
12:54we will not stand for a dogma
12:56we will stand for freedom from all dogmas
12:59we will not stand for a particular idea
13:07we will stand for examination of all possible ideas
13:12we will not stand for anything under the sun
13:19we will stand for liberation from everything under the sun
13:24we will not stand for any product of the mind
13:33we will stand for freedom from the tyranny of the mind
13:39are you getting it this is the foundation of the indian nation this is what india stands for
13:48so all nations are governed by principles
13:53so all nations are governed by principles
13:55and india is governed by freedom from all principles
13:59and that's what makes india
14:03free liberal accommodative tolerant
14:09and therefore inherently extremely strong and vibrant
14:12but only as strong and only as vibrant as
14:20is the depth of the indians understanding
14:25you are talking about the reality of india
14:36what i am talking of
14:37is in some sense
14:39a utopia
14:42you go to most people and they will say you know this is this particular ideal
14:48that governs india
14:52or these principles
14:56that are at the foundation of india
14:58no no no
15:02india
15:05is
15:07an ever existing quest to rise higher
15:12never stopping at any principle
15:14yes this moment some principle might look good
15:22socialism looks good
15:24but i'm not stopping here i'm not turning it
15:28into into a dogma i'm not turning it
15:33into a belief system
15:39i'll keep striving for something yet higher that is india
15:44the upward glance
15:51my innocent child looking at the sky
15:58do there have to be limits
16:02no no no
16:07ultimate freedom that is india
16:09that is at the base of the indian nation
16:13and as long as that remains
16:15as at the base of the indian nation
16:19india will remain eternal
16:25india is not a political construct india is not a thing on the world map
16:32these are small things
16:35the maps of the world keep changing
16:37no
16:421947
16:45the map of india didn't have go and seek him
16:47pre-1947 british india included
17:00pishawar and dhaka
17:05and there have been times
17:07foundations
17:12i am
17:23he is known as burma
17:23ryan
17:24ko
17:24did you take it into india
17:28and
17:28dia is that the earth is the first thing of the century
17:30India stands for the timeless
17:31India stands for the timeless.
17:40As a nation, India is extremely unique.
17:48All nations have a principle to govern them.
17:54India has inquiry to govern itself.
17:58India realized all principles are limited.
18:03All principles will ultimately breed violence.
18:09And all principles will ultimately be destroyed.
18:13All principles contain within themselves their own destruction.
18:16The typical dialectics, you have a principle and some opposing principle will come up.
18:32And then you will have something else.
18:34And if you are invested too heavily in the principle, you will have heartbreak and you will suffer.
18:47In 1947, political independence.
18:57East Pakistan, West Pakistan.
19:01And they said the basis of our nationhood is religion.
19:06They say we are a nation. Why?
19:11Because we are all Muslims.
19:15So even though the two wings, East and West Pakistan, are separated by thousands of miles of Indian territory.
19:23Yet we are one united nation, Pakistan.
19:26Pakistan.
19:28Did that last?
19:31Can that last?
19:36Can that last?
19:39You had Muslims here, you had Muslims there in East and in West.
19:42The ones in West didn't give much importance to the fact that the ones in East were fellow Muslims.
20:01When elections were held for the Central Assembly, the parliament, the Pakistani parliament.
20:07And Mujib got a majority.
20:17The fellow Muslims in the West refused to let him form the government.
20:23But you are a nation.
20:26And you said that if we follow the same religion, then we are brothers.
20:30That didn't happen.
20:33Ego trumps everything.
20:35Ego does not care for any principle.
20:41All principles are for the ego.
20:44No principle is bigger than the ego.
20:47Whenever there will be a clash between the ego and even the most, most elevated, most sublime, most refined of principles, the ego will win.
20:56The ego will win.
21:01And how violently did it win?
21:0771 has been one of the biggest genocides of the last century.
21:16Obviously, we know of the Holocaust.
21:19But what happened in Bangladesh was terrible.
21:25It's not just that the Hindus there were butchered.
21:33Muslims were slaughtering Muslims.
21:36That kind of basis of nationhood does not hold.
21:42You know, we are a nation because we are one religion.
21:46That's what Jinnah came up with.
21:48Hindus and Muslims are two nations.
21:51No, sir.
21:52Religion does not suffice to really hold a people together.
22:06People can live truly together only when they are united by the truth.
22:16An unwavering commitment to the truth.
22:20And that's what India stands for.
22:25That's what India at least should stand for.
22:29An unwavering commitment to the truth.
22:36Not to fanaticism.
22:42Not to hooliganism.
22:44Not to some nationalistic idea.
22:52But to the truth itself.
22:59And to a great extent India has successfully done that over the centuries.
23:05And that's why even when we did not politically exist as a state.
23:10Yet we always existed as a nation.
23:16Isn't that beautiful?
23:20They could come and take political control of our territory.
23:24That's fine.
23:26We fought back.
23:27But would have been much worse had we allowed them to take control of our insides.
23:38The foundation of India is freedom itself.
23:42We do not want to be dominated on the outside.
23:48But much more than the outside it is extremely unacceptable that somebody dominates us within.
23:58I do not allow even myself to dominate me within.
24:04My interiors are a space so clean.
24:10I do not allow even myself to step there.
24:14How will I allow anybody else to intrude?
24:18That is India.
24:19That is India.
24:20To a lot of people this would be obtruse.
24:32They will say this is all just too abstract.
24:35It is not abstract.
24:36You must understand this.
24:40If you want to truly call yourself Indian.
24:47India is the I that wants to understand.
24:52I want to know.
24:53I do not want to dream.
24:54I want to know.
24:56That's what India is.
24:58That's the beauty and greatness of India.
25:00And if Indians refuse to see and know.
25:11Then Indians can no longer call themselves beautiful or great.
25:17India will always remain great and beautiful.
25:21But there is no guarantee that Indians would be automatically great and beautiful.
25:32It's a choice.
25:36It's a price you have to pay.
25:40It is always very comfortable within your belief system.
25:45within the paradigm of your assumptions and superstitions and desires.
25:59It requires guts to be a true Indian.
26:02One has to fight the battle within.
26:04Else you can develop any kind of random way to separate man from man.
26:21You have lived in campus hostel, haven't you?
26:26Yeah, two campus hostels.
26:30Two campus hostels.
26:31So have I.
26:33Now you enter the campus as a fresher.
26:36And you are allotted a particular hostel.
26:39And the allotment is often quite random.
26:43It depends on your entry number or your rank or some other random criteria.
26:51Maybe the letter your name begins with.
26:56Some criteria and you are allotted a particular hostel.
26:58And then you are supposed to be loyal to the hostel.
27:03And you are supposed to fight the other hostels down.
27:06What kind of basis of unity is this?
27:10Random.
27:12So random.
27:14And you are supposed to commit your energies to this.
27:16And you are supposed to really take the other hostels as your enemy?
27:26Did that happen at ID Bombay?
27:28That was one of the first things that happened in first year.
27:33Same at ID Delhi.
27:34Same at ID Delhi.
27:35Just that.
27:37Obviously, we all knew it was for fun.
27:40But then some of us did take it way too seriously.
27:45And you are a kind of traitor if you didn't participate in inter-hostel wars.
27:58There were instances in which people are actually beaten up.
28:02You can find any random way to divide people.
28:17Within the hostel, there were regional groups.
28:21There was this group from Bihar.
28:27There was this group from Andhra.
28:30Obviously, from Tamil Nadu and all the places.
28:34Gujarat.
28:36You name the region.
28:38And you have groups there.
28:39You didn't even have to have an entire state.
28:51We had a Lucknow gang.
28:55Even a city suffices.
28:58We are together because we belong to the same city.
29:01And hence, everybody else is an alien.
29:07Let's be divided.
29:09The ego is always looking to create boundaries.
29:18Only within boundaries can the ego survive.
29:22Now, there is a kind of nationalism that deepens those boundaries.
29:32And there is a kind of nationalism that destroys boundaries.
29:40India stands for the latter.
29:45Are you getting it?
29:46Just because you are born on Indian territory, the subtle fact is that you do not qualify to be called a real Indian.
30:03Obviously, technically, you will be an Indian.
30:09You will hold the Indian passport and the entire world would call you an Indian.
30:14But you do not become an Indian by your place of birth.
30:23You become an Indian by your heart.
30:25Do you value freedom?
30:26Do you value freedom?
30:27Do you have love for the truth?
30:33Can you lay down your life for something beyond yourself?
30:40If yes, then you are an Indian.
30:44If no, then you are just an Indian in name.
30:48The kind of Indians who think Indian less nice in cheering for the cricket team.
30:57Or beating other people down or berating other countries.
31:21And avoiding to pay taxes while doing all that.
31:27India is a spirit.
31:45The spirit that you find in Vedanta.
31:51The spirit that does not impose anything on the mind.
31:58A spirit that just asks.
32:00Asks.
32:02The spirit that says I want to know.
32:04Does not say I already know.
32:06Does not say my beliefs are correct.
32:08Says no.
32:10I am prepared to question everything.
32:12I will not let any consideration be too much on me.
32:18Nothing is bigger than truth.
32:19And that is why you see India knows love.
32:29Because true love can only be towards the truth.
32:35All else is just attraction born of desire.
32:41Because India respected and I hope it still does the truth.
32:56Hence, India has known love.
33:01A love beyond territory.
33:05A love beyond ethnicity.
33:09A love beyond materiality.
33:10The true Indian would be a fighter and a lover.
33:24He fights what is untrue because he loves the truth.
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