00:00This is Apropos. Well, his quest to take control of the mineral-rich Arctic island from a NATO
00:07ally has deeply shaken the global order. Now, Donald Trump says he's cancelling his planned
00:13tariffs for European nations over their stance on Greenland, saying he's agreed the framework
00:18of a future deal on Arctic security, following talks with the head of the NATO military alliance,
00:24Mark Rutter. The comments posted on Trump's Truth Social network come after he'd earlier ruled out
00:30using force to seize the island as he addressed world leaders at Davos. Here's our Washington
00:36correspondent, Fraser Jackson, with more on what's known at this very early stage about the deal.
00:43With what Donald Trump said, this was the first U-turn on his Truth Social platform. He said,
00:49based upon a very productive meeting that I've had with the Secretary General of NATO, Mark Rutter,
00:54we have formed the framework of a future deal with respect to Greenland and, in fact, the entire
00:59Arctic region. This solution, if consummated, will be a great one for the USA and all NATO nations.
01:04Based upon this understanding, I will not be imposing the tariffs that were scheduled to go
01:08into effect on February 1st. That was, of course, that 10% tariff on Asian European nations that
01:13Donald Trump was lashing out against because of their support of Greenland. He then finished that
01:18section by saying additional discussions are being held concerning the Golden Dome as it
01:22pertains to Greenland, that, of course, that missile defence system that Donald Trump
01:25is going forward with. Well, Trump then spoke briefly to some reporters on his way out of the
01:30World Economic Forum in Davos, where he said that this deal gave the US everything it wanted,
01:35but he didn't say whether it included ownership of the United States, of Greenland by the United
01:39States. He paused a bit by that when asked by my colleague Caitlin Collins from CNN. He instead said
01:45it's a long-term deal and it's a little bit complex. Reading between the lines here and judging of what
01:50I'm hearing from sources, this ultimately is Donald Trump taking an off-ramp that he has been offered
01:56by the Europeans. Now, it is believed that this means that the US will not be owning Greenland,
02:03but rather what will be happening is that NATO will agree to beef up security in the Arctic region,
02:10including in Greenland, by sending more troops to that part of the world. And it also means that the US will
02:17be taking advantage of the deal that it already has with Greenland when it comes to troop movements
02:22and personnel numbers in the Arctic region. Now, remember, Sharon, that the US used to have around
02:2918,000 troops in Greenland over the course of the Cold War and numerous bases. Now it has just one base,
02:37the Pacific space base, which it uses to monitor intercontinental ballistic missiles that would
02:43head to the continental US from Russia. Well, it's believed that the numbers of US troops stationed
02:49there could now increase as a direct consequence of this deal, which Donald Trump says is still the
02:55concept of a deal at the moment, but it is still being worked out. Fraser Jackson reporting there from
03:02Washington. Well, for more, we're joined by economist and social scientist Stephen Durloff,
03:07director of the Stone Centre for Research on Wealth, Inequality and Mobility at the University
03:12of Chicago's Harris School of Public Policy. Thanks so much, Professor, for being with us on
03:18the programme this evening. A rapidly moving story, as we say. Donald Trump saying he's lifted the threat
03:25that he'd made to impose those 10% tariffs on European nations after reaching what he said was the
03:30framework of a deal on Greenland. How much of a relief will this be to European capitals? The
03:36message tonight coming from Berlin, for example, don't get your hopes up too soon.
03:42Well, I think that's an appropriate response. Every day there's a new position taken by the United
03:48States. And so no tariffs today could be restore tariffs tomorrow. That said, I think that the damage
03:55has been done and it's very persistent. And what I mean by that is that the threat of tariffs,
04:01in some ways, it was crossing the Rubicon. Because what it did was, it said, number one,
04:06that all of the comprehensive trade agreements that had come to pass with the Europeans after
04:11the trade, this tariff war, they weren't comprehensive. They were not permanent. They
04:15were simply temporary based on the whims of the president. And the second thing is that if you combine
04:20this threat with the undermining of NATO and the attacks on the European Union that have gone on
04:27by this administration, what you have is the United States basically decoupling itself from Europe
04:33and making itself an unreliable partner. Yeah, because tariffs are not, what really is the biggest
04:38threat here? Those import duties that Donald Trump has been on and off threatening? This isn't the first
04:44time that he's moved back and forth, backtracked with various tariffs that he's been threatening.
04:49Or really, it's the big danger here, the strained relationship with what is America's largest trading
04:55partner? Which side is, you know, loses the most, so to speak, if all of this escalates even further? As
05:04we're seeing this evening, you know, it's really too early to say what might happen next.
05:10Well, there's an old saying that nobody wins a tariff war. But more generally, nobody wins a war in which
05:18good friends are pushed away. In other words, through thick and thin, the NATO alliance, the alliance
05:24between the United States and our European and Canadian partners, has been damaged for an unknown
05:31amount of time. So that goes, that has many implications. For example, even if the tariffs are
05:38rolled back, the willingness of Europeans to buy American goods are going to go, has been damaged.
05:44Think about European governments and which defense contractors they're going to want to use.
05:50That's already changed. In other words, the trust that you can have in American defense contractors
05:56with respect to replacement parts or upgrades, etc., has been damaged by this mercurial and,
06:02I will say, disloyal policy. So all of that's going to damage the United States.
06:07A second example is the loss of the international community of scholars that are going to be less willing
06:17to come to the United States. The brain drain is a real thing. It has redounded to the benefits of the
06:22United States immensely. And that's being cut back. And so I could go on and identify what it means to lose
06:29trust and no longer be a credible partner in things. All of that, obviously, I'm speaking as an American
06:34and how it affects the United States. But nobody wins from that. In other words, it's cooperation
06:40between the United States and Europe and the treatment of each other as trusted allies. Allies,
06:45of course, can have contentious disagreements. But through thick and thin, you stay together.
06:51And all of that is being lost now.
06:53And we're in the realm of speculation here. But what do you think has actually led Donald Trump
07:00to ultimately back down here? Is it because he's been coming under pressure from Europe? Or is it
07:06because of the reaction to all of this that he's seeing at home in the US? Perhaps a mixture of both?
07:13I think it was the stock market, to be honest with you. In other words, there were very substantial
07:18reductions in the net wealth of the United States. Something like $1.5 trillion were lost on Monday.
07:23The administration has shown itself to be very sensitive to declines in stock markets,
07:29increases in interest rates, decline in bond prices, etc. All of that is suggestive,
07:35to me at least, that he was influenced by that. I'm sorry to say, but the administration has evidenced
07:42so much hostility towards Europe, the idea of the European Union, the cultural differences between
07:48our societies, etc., that I don't think that there's any sense in which nothing has been
07:54evinced to indicate the sort of deep loyalties that transcend political disagreements are part
08:00of this administration, even though that has been the case throughout the post-war period.
08:06Professor, earlier we saw the European Parliament in Strasbourg put on hold the process for putting
08:11in place the trade deal that has agreed between the US and the EU just last July. Will this rowing
08:19back, do you think, on tariffs be enough to save that trade deal?
08:25I don't know, because I don't have expertise sufficiently in European politics.
08:30What I think is the case, and again, I'm giving a judgment about other countries,
08:34is that Europe underestimates its economic power with respect to the United States.
08:41And what I mean by that is if one were to go through the anti-coercion legislation of the
08:47European Union, there were very substantial penalties that would have been paid by the
08:51United States were they implemented. Now, if you ask me to guess, I think that the European
08:56governments by and large still are trying to propitiate Trump and are hoping that this will
09:01go through. And as a result, I suspect that the European Parliament will approve them. But again,
09:06I'm speaking as an outsider and not as a political scientist.
09:10Okay, Professor, we leave it there for now. Thanks so much for your time on the programme
09:14this evening and talking to us about a story that's moved on rapidly since we were going to speak to
09:19you earlier on this evening. So we do appreciate your reactivity there. That is Stephen Durloff,
09:24Director of the Stone Centre for Research on Wealth Inequality at the University of Chicago. Thanks so much.
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