Crown Court - Nuts (1974) - video Dailymotion

Jezza

Crown Court: the gripping courtroom drama from the 1970s and 1980s.  Not all uploads are visible from the UK: either use a VPN or go to @ jezthorpe on my Daily Motion channel. 🙂👍  Charles Holloway is charged with murdering two women - an aunt and her niece - who lived in the flat above.  Michael Wynne, known for his film appearances as well as Lord Melbury in Fawlty Towers, appears as the defendant.  #Crown #Court #Nuts #Michael #Wynne #Fawlty #Towers #Melbury

Transcript

00:00:00The New York Times

00:00:02The New York Times

00:00:04The New York Times

00:00:06The New York Times

00:00:08The New York Times

00:00:10The New York Times

00:00:16Are you Charles Holloway?

00:00:18I am.

00:00:20Charles Holloway, you are charged on the first count with murder

00:00:22in that on the fourth day of October 1973

00:00:24in the county borough of Fulchester

00:00:26you murdered Mavis Berger.

00:00:28How say you, are you guilty or not guilty?

00:00:32Mr Holloway? Yes?

00:00:34Not guilty, I'm sorry.

00:00:36On the second count you are charged with murder

00:00:38in that on the fourth day of October 1973

00:00:40in the county borough of Fulchester

00:00:42you murdered Elizabeth Pearl Watson.

00:00:44How say you, are you guilty or not guilty?

00:00:48Not guilty.

00:00:58James Morris, Inspector, Fulchester CID my lord.

00:01:14Inspector Morris, were you on duty at Fulchester Central Police Station

00:01:16on the evening of October the 5th last year?

00:01:18Yes, sir.

00:01:20What were your duties?

00:01:21I was senior officer on duty, sir.

00:01:22And in the course of the evening did you interview the accused?

00:01:24Yes, sir.

00:01:26How did that come about?

00:01:27I received a message from the desk sergeant, sir,

00:01:29telling me Mr Holloway was downstairs.

00:01:31I went down to him and conducted him to the interview room on the ground floor.

00:01:35What happened then?

00:01:36He produced a gun and gave it to me.

00:01:38Produced a gun?

00:01:39You mean from his pocket?

00:01:40No, sir.

00:01:41He took it from a piece of brown paper it was wrapped in.

00:01:43He'd been holding it in his hand.

00:01:45Is this the gun?

00:01:46It's exhibit one, my lord.

00:01:51It is, sir.

00:01:52Did he say anything as he did so?

00:01:54Yes, sir.

00:01:56May I refer to my notebook, my lord?

00:01:58Mr O'Connor?

00:01:59Yes, certainly, Inspector.

00:02:00Thank you, my lord.

00:02:02He said,

00:02:04I think I've killed two people.

00:02:06This morning I saw myself do it.

00:02:08It was the two people in the flat above us.

00:02:10It seems I've shot them.

00:02:11I then cautioned him and asked him if he wished to make a statement.

00:02:14He said he would.

00:02:15After he'd written down the statement, he signed it, sir.

00:02:18And then I cautioned him again.

00:02:20Did he say anything else?

00:02:21Yes, sir.

00:02:22He said as I arrested him,

00:02:24I still cannot understand what happened.

00:02:26I thought I would remember the scene, but I haven't.

00:02:29But I did kill them.

00:02:30Now, is this the statement that the defendant made?

00:02:32Exhibit two, my lord.

00:02:34Yes, sir.

00:02:36Members of the jury, this is the statement.

00:02:39I live at flat nine, Cresswell House, Fulchester, in a four-room flat.

00:02:43In the flat above are two ladies who say they are aunt and niece

00:02:47and who have been driving us nuts for years.

00:02:50They have done everything to annoy us.

00:02:52They have a great many animals up there.

00:02:54They are allowed to urinate through the floor.

00:02:56They bang about all night.

00:02:58They keep their television set on at top volume all day.

00:03:01They break our windows.

00:03:03They let water pour through our ceiling.

00:03:05They know how to fuse our lights.

00:03:08Yesterday, I couldn't stand it any longer.

00:03:10So I took my old service revolver and some bullets I had had since I was demobilized from the army

00:03:16and went upstairs and shot them both dead.

00:03:20I'm sorry.

00:03:21Inspector, how did Mr Holloway appear to you when he made that statement?

00:03:25He seemed perfectly calm and collected, sir.

00:03:27No question then of any stress or any emotion?

00:03:30Quite the reverse.

00:03:31He struck me as being very precise and clear-headed.

00:03:33And the statement was made absolutely voluntarily, was it?

00:03:35You didn't prompt him in any way?

00:03:37Absolutely not, sir.

00:03:38Good.

00:03:39Now, had you met Mr Holloway before?

00:03:42Yes, sir.

00:03:43He'd been to see me or my staff on seven previous occasions

00:03:46to complain about the two women above.

00:03:48It appears that they had taunted Mr and Mrs Holloway

00:03:52and made their lives a misery.

00:03:53In what way?

00:03:54By all the means mentioned in the statement, so in a similar one.

00:03:56Now, what action did you take over these complaints?

00:03:58Well, on the first occasion, sir, I sent an officer around

00:04:00to interview the Miss Berger and Miss Watson, the two persons concerned.

00:04:04The two deceased?

00:04:05Yes, sir.

00:04:06This report stated that both women lived in terrible squalor

00:04:09with a large collection of domestic animals in the flat.

00:04:11And that over the past years, both women have been in and out of mental homes

00:04:14and that they were under the care of the Welfare Department.

00:04:17That is the County Borough Council Social Services Mental Health Department.

00:04:21Yes, my lord, known as the Welfare.

00:04:23A euphemism?

00:04:24They were not certified then?

00:04:25No, sir, but I was given to understand they had been voluntary impatience.

00:04:29I see, thank you.

00:04:30Now, what action did you take on receiving your officer's report?

00:04:33Well, I forwarded the report on to the Welfare Department.

00:04:36And the six subsequent complaints, you said there were seven?

00:04:39I forwarded them on two, sir.

00:04:40Over how long a period was this?

00:04:42Well, the first complaint was three years before the killing, sir.

00:04:45Did you receive any other complaints?

00:04:47Yes, sir, from Miss Berger and Miss Watson.

00:04:50They complained about Mr Holloway, sir.

00:04:52They complained about him?

00:04:54Yes, sir.

00:04:55Mr O'Connor, do you object to this evidence?

00:04:57No, my lord.

00:04:58Well, what was the nature of their complaints?

00:05:01They said he made obscene gestures to them in the street, sir.

00:05:04And on another occasion they complained that he polished the stairs leading to their flat with a criminal intention of causing them to slip and break a limb, that sort of thing.

00:05:13Did you take any action on their complaints?

00:05:15Yes, sir.

00:05:16On this first occasion, sir, I went myself to see Mr Holloway.

00:05:19And how did he take it?

00:05:20Well, he was very polite, but I could see that he didn't like it.

00:05:23Yes, hardly surprising.

00:05:24Did he offer any comment?

00:05:25He said they were mentally unstable, sir.

00:05:29Was that the actual expression that he used?

00:05:32No, sir.

00:05:33He said they were nuts, sir.

00:05:35Nuts?

00:05:36Yes, sir.

00:05:37Nuts.

00:05:38And the other complaints that the two women made to you?

00:05:40I sent them on to the welfare, sir.

00:05:42Why was that?

00:05:43I thought they were nuts too, sir.

00:05:46Yes, quite so.

00:05:48Nevertheless, did you discern any similarity in the pattern of these complaints?

00:05:52Yes, sir.

00:05:53I could see that things were becoming serious between the two households as time passed.

00:05:57So that when it suddenly exploded into violence...

00:05:59My lord, no evidence has been brought forward to suggest that it exploded into violence.

00:06:03I'm surprised that the learned friend doesn't consider the shooting dead of two people a violent act.

00:06:08It is not necessary, sir, my lord.

00:06:10Yes, I suppose it might be difficult to see how in practice one could shoot someone dead in a gentle manner.

00:06:15But I suppose an accidental shooting might not be characterized as violence.

00:06:20No doubt, Mr O'Connor is anticipating a defense of provocation.

00:06:27Hmm.

00:06:28Very well.

00:06:29We shall just have to wait and see.

00:06:30Well, let's get on.

00:06:32I have no further questions, my lord.

00:06:33Thank you, Inspector.

00:06:35Inspector, why did you omit some of what the defendant told you?

00:06:40Pardon, sir?

00:06:41As you say, you didn't prompt the defendant, but you did leave out some of what he told you, didn't you?

00:06:45Sir?

00:06:47Did he not also say it was like someone else doing it?

00:06:51He may have.

00:06:52Well, did he or didn't he?

00:06:54He did.

00:06:55Well, then why on earth did you leave it out?

00:06:57Well, it didn't mean anything, sir.

00:06:59It didn't mean anything.

00:07:00It wasn't relevant.

00:07:02Do you usually edit statements by cues so that only what you believe to be relevant is included?

00:07:08It was just a vague comment, sir, almost like saying good morning or excuse me.

00:07:12He did say good evening, but I didn't put that in.

00:07:14Did you perhaps omit it because it might further have indicated a state of mind that the defendant was in at the time of the killings,

00:07:21which is most relevant to this case?

00:07:23No, sir.

00:07:24But you did omit it?

00:07:27Yes.

00:07:28Yes.

00:07:29Yes.

00:07:30Now, you say he was calm when he made that statement?

00:07:33Yes, sir.

00:07:34And clear and precise?

00:07:36Yes.

00:07:37Here was a man confessing to the deliberate killing by shooting of two mental deficients who had been tormenting him for three years,

00:07:45and you say he was calm and precise?

00:07:47He was.

00:07:48Unusual in itself, wouldn't you say?

00:07:51I don't receive murder confessions every day, sir.

00:07:54But confessions to crime of a violent nature, intent to do bodily harm, for example.

00:07:59Are they usually calm and on emotional occasions?

00:08:02Not always.

00:08:03These are curious verbal expressions.

00:08:08In that part of his statement which you have allowed to remain, that is, I think I have killed two people.

00:08:15I saw myself do it.

00:08:17It seems that I've shot them.

00:08:19I thought I would remember the scene, but I haven't.

00:08:23Do they not strike you as remarkably puzzled, even confused?

00:08:26My Lord, the officer is being asked for his opinion on matters of evidence.

00:08:30If my Lord a friend must make comments, can he not do so when he addresses the jury?

00:08:34Yes, I must agree with that.

00:08:35I beg your pardon, Your Lordship.

00:08:37Let me put it this way.

00:08:39Did the defendant, when he made that statement, recognise the horror of what he'd done?

00:08:45He fully understood what he was saying, sir, and was absolutely clear about what he had done.

00:08:50Indeed.

00:08:53When you received the message from your desk, Sergeant, that Mr Holloway wished to see you,

00:08:57did you go straight down to him?

00:08:59I finished what I was doing first, sir.

00:09:01How long did that take?

00:09:02Not long.

00:09:03What were you doing at the time?

00:09:05Desk work routine.

00:09:07I have a copy of the station love book here, Inspector.

00:09:11It says that Mr Holloway arrived at 7.05pm and you went down to see him at 9.10pm.

00:09:16You kept him waiting for two hours.

00:09:19It might have been.

00:09:21Two hours!

00:09:22Why on earth was that?

00:09:24I was busy, as I said.

00:09:26Desk work.

00:09:28Inspector, isn't the true reason why you kept him waiting so long was that you were fed up to the teeth with him

00:09:34and his interminable complaints about these women?

00:09:37Indeed, it was only three months before that that he'd complained to your Assistant Chief Constable

00:09:42about your lack of action in this dispute.

00:09:45And that is why you are omitting one extremely important matter from your evidence.

00:09:49I have omitted nothing, sir.

00:09:51Is it not a fact that the defendant was extremely distressed when he made that statement?

00:09:55No, sir.

00:09:56That he was appalled at what he had done and was in a considerable emotional turmoil about it?

00:10:00He was absolutely calm.

00:10:02Well, you have omitted this important pointer to his state of mind because you were annoyed at his complaint to your superior.

00:10:07That's ridiculous.

00:10:08Oh, is it, Inspector?

00:10:10Is it indeed?

00:10:12Would it be fair to say that Mr Holloway was normally a mild man?

00:10:16From what I knew of him?

00:10:17Gentle.

00:10:18Gentle.

00:10:19Yes.

00:10:20Mild and gentle.

00:10:21We get all sorts.

00:10:22The last sort of person, in fact, that you would expect to commit a crime of violence.

00:10:26We get all sorts.

00:10:27Well, would it be fair to say that when he came to see you about his complaints over the three years,

00:10:32he didn't scream and shout about them?

00:10:35No.

00:10:36He remained calm?

00:10:37Never raised his voice, sir.

00:10:38Never got heated or lost his temper?

00:10:40No, sir.

00:10:41Then would it be fair to say that when he came to see you to confess to the killing of two women by shooting,

00:10:47you were surprised?

00:10:50Yes, I was.

00:10:51Because it was so completely out of character?

00:10:55Yes.

00:10:57Thank you, Inspector.

00:11:00Do you wish to re-examine, Mr Lloyd?

00:11:02No, my lord, but I trust that the inspector will now be able to remain in court.

00:11:05Yes, I think you must be labouring under the same disadvantage as I am.

00:11:08I suspect so, my lord.

00:11:10Yes, namely what the defence's case is.

00:11:13Very well.

00:11:14Are you able to remain in court, Mr Morris?

00:11:16Yes, my lord.

00:11:18Let us proceed.

00:11:19I called Dr Martin Huntersmith.

00:11:22Dr Martin Huntersmith, please.

00:11:33What's your religion?

00:11:35Take the book in your right hand and read aloud the words on the card.

00:11:37I swear by a mighty god that the evidence I shall give should be the truth.

00:11:40Dr Hunter Smith, you're a police surgeon attached to the pathology department at the Home Office at Liverpool.

00:11:47Yes.

00:11:48Were you consulted by Fullchester CID on October the 6th of last year about a double shooting?

00:11:52I was.

00:11:53I was.

00:11:54I was requested to report on the injuries to the two bodies.

00:11:58Where was this?

00:11:59At Flat 9, Crestwell House, Fullchester.

00:12:01You went there?

00:12:02I did.

00:12:03You examined the bodies?

00:12:04Yes.

00:12:05They were of two females.

00:12:06One aged approximately 60 years, the other aged approximately 35 years.

00:12:09Each had been shot at close range by a single bullet through the heart.

00:12:13In what position did each body lie?

00:12:15That of the older female was in the bathroom.

00:12:17It lay on its back as if the force of the bullet had knocked it clean over backwards.

00:12:21Would death have been instantaneous?

00:12:24A matter of seconds.

00:12:25And the other body?

00:12:26The younger female lay on its side in the kitchen.

00:12:28The force of the bullet had knocked it back against a table from whence it had slumped to the floor.

00:12:33And the wound was in the same position?

00:12:35In both cases, the bullet had shattered the fifth rib and entered the left ventricle of the heart.

00:12:40It was an expert job.

00:12:41Oh.

00:12:42What do you mean by that, Doctor?

00:12:43I mean, my lord, that where death occurs by shooting, it's usually, well, rather a messy business.

00:12:49You've attended many such cases?

00:12:5037.

00:12:51I see. Thank you.

00:12:52So could you say, then, against the background of your considerable experience,

00:12:55that these two cases are characterized by any factor?

00:12:59Yes.

00:13:00The neat and apparently deliberate way in which they were carried out.

00:13:04Neat and deliberate?

00:13:07Oh, yes.

00:13:08This was a calm and deliberate killing by someone who knew exactly what he was about.

00:13:22Dr. Smith, did you observe the general conditions of the flat where these two women lived?

00:13:38I did, yes.

00:13:39What was its condition?

00:13:40Indescribable squalor.

00:13:42The walls were thick with dirt.

00:13:44There were any number of animals.

00:13:45Cats, dogs, rabbits, gerbils, mice, and a small goat.

00:13:52Did... did you say goat?

00:13:54Yes, my lord.

00:13:55They're used for milk.

00:13:56I'm well aware what goats are used for.

00:13:58And you mean to say that all these animals lived in this flat?

00:14:02Yes, my lord.

00:14:03But surely the public health authorities would...

00:14:05My lord, I shall be calling evidence to show that the public health department did try to put an end to this menagerie.

00:14:11But when they discovered that the two women were in care, they had to leave off for some time.

00:14:15They referred the matter to the welfare?

00:14:18Quite, my lord.

00:14:19Who did nothing?

00:14:20Yes, my lord.

00:14:21Shall we be hearing from the welfare?

00:14:23We will, my lord.

00:14:24I shall look forward to it.

00:14:26Let's proceed.

00:14:27Thank you, my lord.

00:14:28Dr. Hunter Smith, from your experience, would you say that to be able to kill another human being by shooting them at close quarters would call for a considerable emotional voltage of some sort?

00:14:40My lord, the witness is not a psychiatrist.

00:14:42Well, it's impossible to be in medicine today without some knowledge of psychiatry.

00:14:45Yes, yes, yes.

00:14:46I shall allow the question so long as we don't enter deep psychiatric waters.

00:14:50I'm obliged, Your Lordship.

00:14:52Dr. Hunter Smith.

00:14:53For a normal, peaceful citizen, to be able to shoot not one but two persons at close range would require an overwhelmingly explosive emotional crisis of some kind.

00:15:03Otherwise, he could not do it.

00:15:04For an experienced killer, such an explosion would not be necessary.

00:15:08On your experience, Doctor, which of these two categories is indicated by the nature of the wounds in this case?

00:15:14The second, undoubtedly.

00:15:15The experienced killer?

00:15:16Yes.

00:15:17It was so carefully done.

00:15:18Would you say it would be impossible for someone in your first category to kill in this way?

00:15:23Yes.

00:15:24Why?

00:15:25As I've said, such persons can only kill in a blinding burst of rage, usually with innumerable shots fired at random into the victim.

00:15:31You might say they go temporarily mad, otherwise they could not do it.

00:15:35And if you were confronted by a person who was demonstrably not an experienced assassin, but an ordinary, peaceful, law-abiding citizen,

00:15:43who claimed that he had committed these killings, what would your reaction be?

00:15:48I would not believe him.

00:15:49Thank you, Doctor.

00:15:50Thank you, Doctor.

00:15:51Thank you, Doctor Hunter-Smith.

00:15:52Unless Mr. Lloyd has any further questions?

00:15:56No.

00:15:57You may go, and thank you for attending.

00:15:59Mr. Lloyd, there's an agreed statement from the Ballistic Section of the Research Services Department of the Home Office Police Department.

00:16:09And it shows that the bullets which killed the two victims have been examined, and they were beyond doubt fired from the gun,

00:16:16which the defendant handed to Inspector Morris, which has been produced as Exhibit 1.

00:16:20But it also shows that the bullets were manufactured approximately one year before the date of the killings.

00:16:27That is in about October of 1972.

00:16:30I see.

00:16:31Very well.

00:16:33Now, my lord, that is the case for the prosecution.

00:16:36My lord, I call the defendant, Mr. Charles Holloway.

00:16:57What is your religion?

00:16:58Church of England.

00:16:59Take the book in your right hand and read aloud the words on the card.

00:17:02I swear by almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

00:17:11You are Charles Holloway.

00:17:13You are aged 63.

00:17:15And you are by occupation a seller of newspapers.

00:17:18I'm manager of the newspaper pavilion on Forchester Station.

00:17:22What we might call a kiosk.

00:17:24If you wish.

00:17:26And you live with your wife at flat 9 Creswell House, Fulchester.

00:17:30Yes.

00:17:31How long have you lived there, Mr. Holloway?

00:17:33Four years.

00:17:34Would you describe it, please?

00:17:36Well, it's a nice little flat, really.

00:17:38No, I mean, how many rooms there are there?

00:17:40Well, there's the sitting room.

00:17:42That's the one at the front facing the road.

00:17:44The one that, well, used to be a bedroom.

00:17:46There are four rooms, are there not?

00:17:48Yes.

00:17:49It's a small ground floor flat.

00:17:51That is correct.

00:17:52And the two women which it is alleged you shot.

00:17:55Oh, I did shoot them.

00:17:57Yes, well, we'll come to that in a minute, won't we?

00:18:00Now, these two women, they live where?

00:18:03Above us.

00:18:04In the flat directly above you.

00:18:06That is correct, yes.

00:18:08My lord, the jury already have a photograph of the block of flats.

00:18:12Now, the Holloway's flat is at one end.

00:18:15It is marked with a large cross.

00:18:17Thus, they were the only flat to be directly affected by the behaviour of the two women immediately above them.

00:18:23Mr. Holloway, when you moved into this flat, how long was it before your dispute with the two women immediately above started?

00:18:31As we walked in the front door.

00:18:33It started immediately?

00:18:34Oh, yes.

00:18:35In what way?

00:18:36Well, we were standing in the hall when we suddenly heard a tremendous noise over our heads.

00:18:42It was their television set and a gramophone on full blast both at once.

00:18:46And they were jumping up and down on our ceiling deliberately.

00:18:48They were jumping up and down on their floor, that is your ceiling, and you thought deliberately.

00:18:53Yes.

00:18:54And there are no carpets up there.

00:18:55The noise was terrible.

00:18:56So what did you do?

00:18:58Well, I went upstairs and I knocked on the door.

00:19:02Yes?

00:19:03It was answered by Miss Berger.

00:19:06That's the old one.

00:19:07And I raised my hat and I said good morning.

00:19:10And she said...

00:19:13I can't say it out loud, my lord.

00:19:15May I write it down?

00:19:16If you wish.

00:19:21I must pledge to you.

00:19:47That's what she said to me, my lord.

00:19:49Before I could say anything at all.

00:19:51Did you reply?

00:19:53Yes, I did.

00:19:54I said, I beg your pardon, madam.

00:19:55And she said...

00:19:57Could I have another piece of paper, please?

00:19:59Yes, I don't think we need the exact words.

00:20:01I take it that she abused you obscenely, did she?

00:20:04Yes, she did, my lord.

00:20:05Please go on.

00:20:08Well, then I went back down to my wife and I told her.

00:20:10I said, those two persons upstairs are not ladies.

00:20:14Right, so...

00:20:15And did these disturbances with your upstairs neighbours continue?

00:20:19Oh, they got worse.

00:20:21As time went on, they seemed to want to drive us mad.

00:20:24It was unbelievable.

00:20:26But they were mentally defective, you see.

00:20:29Once I caught Miss Watson watching us through our letterbox.

00:20:34I was standing in the hall and I turned around

00:20:36and there were these two eyes looking at us.

00:20:39And I threw the door open, but she ran upstairs, covering her face like this.

00:20:44As if she were trying to convey the idea that she wasn't there.

00:20:48You complained about these disturbances?

00:20:51Oh, repeatedly.

00:20:52But nothing ever got done.

00:20:53It was a nightmare.

00:20:56My wife and I, we sometimes couldn't bear to go home.

00:20:59And it was our home.

00:21:00It was our home, after all.

00:21:04Sometimes we tried to bed down in the pavilion.

00:21:08Tried to sleep in the newspaper kiosk at the station?

00:21:10Yes.

00:21:11We took a mattress there by taxi, but we couldn't sleep.

00:21:14It was too cold.

00:21:15It was too noisy.

00:21:16It was affecting our health, do you see.

00:21:20Did you try to reason with them?

00:21:23Oh, yes, indeed, yes.

00:21:25On several occasions, I'm a most reasonable man.

00:21:28With what result?

00:21:29The vilest abuse.

00:21:31It got worse.

00:21:32It got quite awful.

00:21:33When it got so awful, we couldn't stand it.

00:21:34We used to go out for a walk, for anything, just to get out of the place.

00:21:38Now, can we come to the events of the evening of the 4th of October, please?

00:21:42That was when...

00:21:48When the two women were killed, yes.

00:21:53Well, that afternoon...

00:21:56That afternoon, my poor wife was so upset when we shut up the pavilion.

00:21:59She just sat on a bench and cried.

00:22:04This was on platform 5.

00:22:06She just cried.

00:22:07She wouldn't go home.

00:22:09It was awful.

00:22:10I'll never forget that.

00:22:12But you did get her home.

00:22:14Eventually.

00:22:16What time?

00:22:18About 5.

00:22:20And then?

00:22:23Well, then I got out my old service revolver.

00:22:26And I went upstairs and I shot the two creatures dead.

00:22:31Would you describe what you did, step by step, please?

00:22:37Well, I went upstairs.

00:22:39And their door was just a little bit open.

00:22:42And I went into the tiny hall just inside.

00:22:47And there they both were.

00:22:50There was one there.

00:22:53And one there.

00:22:56And I shot them.

00:23:00Mr Holloway.

00:23:05How did you feel when you committed this act?

00:23:11In what way?

00:23:13Mr Holloway, when you shot these two women,

00:23:16were you, for instance, in a rage?

00:23:19Calm?

00:23:21Or what?

00:23:23I can't actually remember it very well.

00:23:25But I was perfectly calm, I think.

00:23:27Calm?

00:23:28Oh, yes, I am, in fact, guilty.

00:23:31Yes, Mr Holloway.

00:23:32But you have, of course, pleaded not guilty to murder.

00:23:34Mr. Representative, because you told me to.

00:23:35I wasn't going to.

00:23:36Now, Mr Holloway.

00:23:37I did kill those women, you know that.

00:23:38I've never denied it.

00:23:39I don't deny it now.

00:23:40I wanted to plead guilty, you wouldn't let me.

00:23:42So I only pleaded not guilty because you told me to.

00:23:44But it's wrong, it's wrong.

00:23:46Because I did do it.

00:23:58The case of the Queen against Holloway will be resumed tomorrow in the Crown Court.

00:24:14Charles Holloway, the manager of a newspaper kiosk on Fulchester Station, has confessed to the killing of his two hundred men.

00:24:32Upstairs neighbours by shooting them.

00:24:33Nevertheless, he's pleaded not guilty to murder.

00:24:34We return to the Crown Court following Holloway's statement from the witness stand that he had wished to plead guilty to the charge, but his counsel had persuaded him not to.

00:24:45He now feels this advice was wrong.

00:24:46My lord, I have now had an opportunity of talking to my client, and he wishes to withdraw the statement he made immediately before the court rose yesterday, and adhered to his original plea of not guilty to murder.

00:25:01Very well, he may return to the witness box.

00:25:02Very well, he may return to the witness box.

00:25:03I would remind you, you are still on a date.

00:25:04I have now had an opportunity of talking to my client, and he wishes to withdraw the statement he made immediately before the court rose yesterday, and adhered to his original plea of not guilty to murder.

00:25:14Very well, he may return to the witness box.

00:25:16I would remind you, you are still on a date, Mr Holloway.

00:25:32Yes, my lord.

00:25:33Do you wish to reconsider anything else you said in evidence yesterday?

00:25:36No, my lord.

00:25:37I'm extremely sorry if I became...

00:25:38Very well.

00:25:39Let's get on.

00:25:40My lord.

00:25:41Mr Holloway, are you a man subject to violent outbursts of temper?

00:25:45I don't believe I've ever lost my temper.

00:25:47What, never?

00:25:48No.

00:25:49Never in your life?

00:25:50I don't believe so.

00:25:51My father was an army major.

00:25:53He was very forthright.

00:25:56We were taught not to show our feelings.

00:25:58So even under the prolonged stress of three years, you did not break down?

00:26:03No.

00:26:04Did you feel at the time of the shootings that you were doing anything wrong?

00:26:08I didn't feel anything.

00:26:10It was like a dream.

00:26:12It was very strange.

00:26:14It started on the station platform that afternoon, about four hours before I put an

00:26:21end to them.

00:26:22And how long did this dreamlike state last?

00:26:26Until lunchtime the following day.

00:26:29Then what happened?

00:26:31Well then it suddenly came over me what I'd done.

00:26:34The appallingness of it.

00:26:36It was as if all my feelings had been frozen until then.

00:26:40You felt your feelings had been frozen at the times of the killing?

00:26:44Yes.

00:26:45The next day when you'd recovered as it were, what did you do then?

00:26:51I wanted to kill myself.

00:26:53I couldn't survive with the idea of what I'd done.

00:26:57So I took the gun and I went out.

00:27:00I caught a number 32 bus in front of the station and I went off into the countryside.

00:27:04There was a little wood with a stream and I stood by it for a bit.

00:27:09And then I took out the gun and I put it on a tree stump in front of me.

00:27:19It was a lovely day.

00:27:22Sun, trees, birds.

00:27:26And I began to wonder.

00:27:30I thought with luck perhaps I'd only get a few years in prison.

00:27:35Maybe I'd be out by the time I was, well, 72, 73.

00:27:43And I decided to give myself up.

00:27:46Because that, that wouldn't solve anything.

00:27:53So I went back and I told my wife what I'd done.

00:27:57And we made all the arrangements.

00:27:59We went to the bank, the insurance office, that sort of thing.

00:28:02And then we went and had tea together in a shop.

00:28:05And I gave her a list of addresses she'd need, tradesmen, that sort of thing.

00:28:10And then I went to the police station

00:28:13and told them what I'd done.

00:28:16Looking back now, can you visualize a scene when you say you shot these two women?

00:28:22Not clearly.

00:28:25It's as if it wasn't me at all.

00:28:29As if it wasn't you at all?

00:28:31Yes.

00:28:32As if, as you put it, your feelings were frozen?

00:28:35Yes.

00:28:36Thank you, Mr Holloway.

00:28:43There's only your word for that though, haven't we?

00:28:46I'm sorry?

00:28:47That's colourful description of how you felt when you killed these women.

00:28:51Your emotions frozen and so forth.

00:28:53We've only got your word for it.

00:28:55I suppose so.

00:28:56Yes.

00:28:57And your word isn't always reliable, is it?

00:28:59I don't know what you mean.

00:29:00Don't you, Mr Holloway?

00:29:02In your statement, you said,

00:29:04I took my old service revolver and some bullets I'd had since I was demobilized from the army

00:29:09and went upstairs and shot them both dead.

00:29:11That's what you said, isn't it?

00:29:12Yes.

00:29:13But here's the ballistics report.

00:29:15It says the bullets were less than 12 months old.

00:29:18Oh, yes.

00:29:19No, no.

00:29:20That was a mistake.

00:29:21A mistake?

00:29:22Yes.

00:29:23It was a lie, wasn't it?

00:29:25It was...

00:29:26Yes.

00:29:27Yes.

00:29:28A deliberate and calculated lie to hide the fact that you'd gone out and bought those bullets

00:29:32with a deliberate intention of shooting the two women.

00:29:34Oh, no.

00:29:35That's not true.

00:29:36Then why did you lie?

00:29:37Because it would have sounded so feeble.

00:29:38What would?

00:29:39Well, the real reason that I bought those bullets.

00:29:40Which was?

00:29:41Well, last March.

00:29:43That's March of last year.

00:29:45And a friend of ours, he was an old friend.

00:29:48And he was mugged.

00:29:50In the street.

00:29:51Not 100 yards from the flat.

00:29:52He's never really recovered.

00:29:53It was shocking.

00:29:54Yes, Mr Holloway.

00:29:57Well, there is this man.

00:30:00He comes to the pavilion.

00:30:02And every month he buys a magazine called Gun Monthly.

00:30:05And I told him about the incident.

00:30:07I told him how shocked we were.

00:30:09And he said he could get us some bullets.

00:30:10Just a few, you understand.

00:30:12And that's when I bought the bullets.

00:30:14For self-defense?

00:30:15Yes.

00:30:16Then why on earth didn't you say so before?

00:30:18Well, as I said, it would have sounded so feeble.

00:30:21After all, I did shoot those women.

00:30:23Yes, you did.

00:30:24You shot them and you killed them in this extraordinary dreamlike state that you describe.

00:30:29And for that we only have your word, haven't we?

00:30:31Yes.

00:30:32And we know now that you don't always believe in telling the truth.

00:30:35Now, where did you get the gun from?

00:30:36Oh, I had that in the army.

00:30:38Yes, you were in the 2nd Battalion of the Fullchester Regiment, weren't you?

00:30:41Yes.

00:30:42I have a copy here of your service record from the Army Officer's Documents Office.

00:30:46Oh, Mr O'Connor?

00:30:47My lord, I don't object to the introduction of this.

00:30:50Oh, very well, Mr Lloyd.

00:30:51Is it not a fact you were an expert shot?

00:30:53Yes.

00:30:54Yes, you won several inter-regimental pistol competitions before the war.

00:30:58And you were also trained to kill people, weren't you?

00:31:01I suppose so.

00:31:02How best to kill them, what exactly to aim at, all that sort of thing.

00:31:06Well, it's a long time ago.

00:31:07And you were awarded the Military Cross for an event which took place shortly after D-Day in 1944,

00:31:12what sounds to me like a very courageous action indeed,

00:31:15in which you yourself shot dead four German gunners at close quarters.

00:31:21So obviously you knew exactly what you were about when it came to killing people.

00:31:25But it's a curious thing.

00:31:27You see, you were never issued with an Army Service revolver of your own.

00:31:33Oh, yes, I was.

00:31:35These records are faulty.

00:31:37If they say that.

00:31:38Well, there's no mention of a revolver here, I can assure you.

00:31:41Well, they are wrong, because I did have one.

00:31:43Did you?

00:31:44Well, do you know what the serial number is stamped on that revolver over there?

00:31:47Serial number?

00:31:48Well, I'll tell you, it is 171740.

00:31:50And that gun was not in fact made until two years after the war.

00:31:55Yes.

00:31:56Yes.

00:31:57So now, you have in fact lied to the court.

00:32:01No.

00:32:02That is the gun I had in the Territorial Army.

00:32:05You see, after the war, I was called back on the Z Reserve, and I was a member of the Pistol Club.

00:32:12Mr Holloway, I put it to you that that is yet another lie,

00:32:15to hide the fact that you went out and you bought the gun at the same time that you bought the bullets.

00:32:19No, that is not true.

00:32:21Indeed.

00:32:22Well then, let us turn to other matters to show how you deliberately planned this killing.

00:32:26I did not.

00:32:27The complaints made against you by Miss Berger and Miss Watson.

00:32:31My lord, these two women were mentally defective.

00:32:34My lord, some of their threats involve allegations of violence.

00:32:37Now surely I may ask the accused if these are true.

00:32:40Yes, I think we are on dangerous ground.

00:32:42But perhaps I may be able to help you, Mr Lloyd.

00:32:46Now, did you make any threats of violence against those two women?

00:32:49Oh, not real violence, my lord.

00:32:51But you made some.

00:32:52Well, I spoke sharply to them.

00:32:53In what way?

00:32:55Well, I do remember saying once, this was when I was very heated.

00:32:58I mean, rarely heated.

00:32:59I did say, you'll regret this.

00:33:02Mr Holloway, these provocations and irritations from upstairs, they were not continuous, were they?

00:33:08I'm sorry?

00:33:09Well, did they happen every day?

00:33:11Well, no, but...

00:33:12Would it be true to say that a whole week might pass without any of these things happening?

00:33:16Well, not very often.

00:33:17But sometimes.

00:33:18Well, yes, but...

00:33:19And can you honestly say that if you heard a door slam or a window bang to,

00:33:23that that had been done deliberately to provoke you?

00:33:26Well, no, but you see, in the circumstances...

00:33:28And you're by no means an easy man yourself, are you?

00:33:31Well, I think I am.

00:33:32Oh, do you?

00:33:33Well, where did you live before you came to Fullchester?

00:33:36Durham.

00:33:3729 King Street, Durham.

00:33:38And did you not complain to the Durham Police twice?

00:33:41In 1965 and again in 1967 about your next door neighbours up there,

00:33:45with whom you were having little short of a running fight with?

00:33:48Oh, no, there was some friction.

00:33:50But you didn't shoot them?

00:33:51No.

00:33:52No, indeed.

00:33:53Well, when exactly did you decide to shoot your neighbours in Fullchester?

00:33:56Well, I don't think I did decide.

00:33:58It just happened?

00:33:59Yes.

00:34:00By itself?

00:34:01Yes.

00:34:02Whilst your emotions were frozen, of course?

00:34:03Yes.

00:34:04Oh, come on now, Mr Holloway, this is all nonsense and you know it.

00:34:07I put it to you that in 1973, perhaps in March, perhaps later, you decided to kill your neighbours.

00:34:14And for that purpose, you went out and you obtained the gun and the bullets with a deliberate intention of killing them.

00:34:21Oh, no.

00:34:22And on October the 4th, last year, you went upstairs and you shot them both dead.

00:34:26Simple as that.

00:34:27Now, have you lost your temper?

00:34:29I wouldn't know.

00:34:30No, it couldn't have been like that.

00:34:31Why not?

00:34:32Because I never lose my temper.

00:34:35I see.

00:34:39Mr Holloway, is that the pistol you had as a territorial?

00:34:42Yes, I believe so.

00:34:43And in spite of the fact that you obtained the bullets without a licence, you got them purely in the interest of self-defence?

00:34:50Yes, that is right.

00:34:52Mr Holloway, why did you kill those two women when you did?

00:34:56Well, it was my wife, sitting crying.

00:35:01She's a very gentle person, do you see, and I'm responsible for her.

00:35:05And she was ill.

00:35:06It seemed so completely unfair.

00:35:08Your wife has been made ill by you.

00:35:10Oh, yes, she was in a terrible state.

00:35:12And it was a sight of your wife sitting there.

00:35:17I think that's when it must have started, yes.

00:35:19When what started?

00:35:20What I did.

00:35:21It was then that I realised it was inevitable.

00:35:26It was like a dream, looking back.

00:35:29Thank you, Mr Holloway.

00:35:31Now, my lord, my learned friend has now introduced some fresh material in re-examination.

00:35:36And in these circumstances, I would like the opportunity to cross-examine on it.

00:35:39Yes, I think you are entitled to do so.

00:35:41Thank you, my lord.

00:35:43So your wife was ill?

00:35:45Yes.

00:35:46And that's what provoked you?

00:35:47Well, not provoked...

00:35:48Well, you didn't mention this in your statement.

00:35:50What?

00:35:51Your statement to the police where you listed the things leading up to the killings.

00:35:54You didn't mention your wife's illness at all.

00:35:56Well, no, I hope to be polite.

00:35:57And now you're saying it's a key factor.

00:35:58Well, I say it's a factor.

00:35:59It wasn't the only factor.

00:36:00Do you love your wife?

00:36:01Yes, of course.

00:36:03How badly ill was she?

00:36:05Pretty badly.

00:36:07Which doctor did you take her to?

00:36:09I'm sorry?

00:36:11Which doctor saw her for this illness?

00:36:14Oh, we didn't go to a doctor.

00:36:17You didn't go to a doctor?

00:36:18Well, no, we knew what was wrong.

00:36:19But if you loved your wife...

00:36:20We'd never go if we can avoid it.

00:36:21We don't like the National Health Service.

00:36:23There's filthy waiting rooms and the doctor never has time to listen to your symptoms.

00:36:26You killed two people, you say, because of your wife's serious illness,

00:36:30but he wasn't bad enough to go to a doctor.

00:36:33This is all nonsense.

00:36:34I suggest that this whole story's a pack of lies and you've...

00:36:37You've just invented it.

00:36:38Your wife was never seriously ill at all.

00:36:40You've invented it as an excuse for your own appalling act.

00:36:43Well, ask her.

00:36:44Ask my wife.

00:36:45Well, she may be a liar, too.

00:36:46By God, don't you say that!

00:36:49God almighty, you speak about my wife like that, I'll kill you!

00:36:52Thank you, Mr. Holloway.

00:36:55Thank you, Mr. Holloway.

00:36:56Thank you, Mr. Holloway.

00:36:57Thank you, Mr. Holloway.

00:36:58Thank you, Mr. Holloway.

00:36:59Thank you, Mr. Holloway.

00:37:00As you said, Mr. Holloway, would you please tell us your profession and what qualifications you have?

00:37:02Dr. Dudley, would you please tell us your profession and what qualifications you have?

00:37:22I'm a consultant psychiatrist and senior lecturer in psychiatry at the University of Fulterstone.

00:37:27I hold the degrees of MB, BS, DPM and member of the Royal College of Psychiatrists.

00:37:34Have you had an opportunity to examine the defendant at some length?

00:37:37I have.

00:37:38Is it possible to define Mr. Holloway's mental type in layman's terms, I mean?

00:37:45My assessment of his mental state is that he is a man who rigidly suppresses all emotional responses.

00:37:51Such personalities are, well, they're particularly prone to break down in an hysterical fashion.

00:37:56Under prolonged stress.

00:37:59Is it possible that some such behaviour pattern could have been present when these two women were killed?

00:38:04Yes, yes, but with this difference.

00:38:07Had the shooting been carried out during an hysterical outburst,

00:38:10it would probably have been an uncontrollable act,

00:38:13excuse me,

00:38:14accompanied by the firing of many shots in random fashion,

00:38:18an emotional eruption, as it were.

00:38:20But here, it is quite clear that Mr. Holloway was suffering from dissociation.

00:38:25Would you describe that, please?

00:38:27Dissociation means that certain aspects of his personality,

00:38:31which normally functioned together, had become separated.

00:38:34How did that affect Mr. Holloway?

00:38:36Well, the action of killing those women

00:38:38became separated from his emotional reaction,

00:38:41his natural repugnance to the killing.

00:38:43He himself described it classically as his emotions being frozen.

00:38:48And what might have caused this condition?

00:38:50Oh, quite clearly the prolonged stress over the three years.

00:38:53But instead of bursting out in an hysteric pattern,

00:38:56it manifested itself in dissociation,

00:38:58what we call hysterical dissociation.

00:39:01And does it mean that the sufferer is or is not responsible

00:39:05for what he does whilst in this state?

00:39:07Oh, he is not responsible.

00:39:09Not responsible?

00:39:10No.

00:39:11When a man is in that state,

00:39:12you can't talk of knowledge of anything.

00:39:14So Mr. Holloway was not aware of his actions

00:39:17in killing the Mrs. Berger and Watson?

00:39:20Quite.

00:39:21Thank you, Doctor.

00:39:25Hysterical dissociation.

00:39:27Does it last?

00:39:29Not usually.

00:39:30Is it catching?

00:39:32That is a stupid question.

00:39:33Is it indeed?

00:39:34Well, has he had it before?

00:39:36Probably not.

00:39:37It's very convenient then.

00:39:39Has he in fact any record

00:39:41of any other psychiatric illness

00:39:43at any time in his life?

00:39:45No.

00:39:46He is in fact a perfectly sane and normal man.

00:39:50Sane, yes.

00:39:51I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by normal.

00:39:53Do you mean average?

00:39:55I mean normal.

00:39:56The word is meaningless in this context.

00:39:59Well, supposing I were to strike my learned friend here

00:40:01with an iron bar

00:40:02and then tell you that I did that while my emotions were frozen.

00:40:08Would you say that I was not responsible?

00:40:10I would not.

00:40:11Why not?

00:40:12You would be lying.

00:40:13Yes, but how could you tell?

00:40:15I am well equipped to tell liars.

00:40:17Yes, well, let's not get on to personalities.

00:40:20Besides, I don't know your mental state.

00:40:23You might well be paranoid.

00:40:24Yes, yes, yes, yes.

00:40:25Well, be that as it may.

00:40:26Now, there are many schools of thought in psychiatry, are there not?

00:40:31Yes.

00:40:31Your views, therefore, do not necessarily coincide

00:40:34with those of your colleagues.

00:40:35No.

00:40:36In fact, would it not be true to say

00:40:37that quite often the different schools are at loggerheads?

00:40:40Not often.

00:40:40But sometimes.

00:40:42On some matters.

00:40:43Of which this could be one.

00:40:47Perhaps.

00:40:48Thank you, Doctor.

00:40:51Do you have any questions, my lord?

00:40:53No, thank you.

00:40:54You may go, Dr Dudley.

00:40:55My lord.

00:40:57My lord, I was not anticipating

00:40:59this defence of diminished responsibility

00:41:01to be raised in this ailment,

00:41:04hysterical dissociation, was it?

00:41:06Well, I must confess,

00:41:07it takes me very much by surprise.

00:41:08Yes.

00:41:10Diminished responsibility is the defence, it seems.

00:41:13Oh, pity you were given no warning.

00:41:14Well, yes, my lord.

00:41:15I must request, therefore,

00:41:16that I also may be allowed to call expert witness,

00:41:20and I'd also like the opportunity

00:41:21to cross-examine the defendant further.

00:41:24When I questioned him before,

00:41:25this possibility of hysterical dissociation

00:41:28had not been canvassed.

00:41:29Mr O'Connor.

00:41:31I have no objection, my lord,

00:41:32to my learned friend calling an expert witness.

00:41:35Very well.

00:41:36Do you have any other witnesses, Mr O'Connor?

00:41:37I do have one more witness.

00:41:39All right.

00:41:41My lord,

00:41:42my friend Mr Tapp

00:41:43will conduct the prosecution

00:41:45whilst the defence finishes his case.

00:41:47Yes, Mr O'Connor.

00:41:49I call Mrs Rosemary Tonks.

00:41:52Rosemary Tonks, please.

00:41:54Yes, sir.

00:41:55What is your religion?

00:42:04None, I wish to affirm.

00:42:05Just read aloud the words on this card.

00:42:08I do solemnly, sincerely, and truly declare and affirm

00:42:10that the evidence I shall give

00:42:11shall be the truth, the whole truth,

00:42:13and nothing but the truth.

00:42:14Go ahead.

00:42:15Mrs Tonks, what is your full name, please?

00:42:18Rosemary Ann Tonks.

00:42:19And where do you live?

00:42:2116 Glebe Close, Fulchester.

00:42:23Mrs Tonks, you are a mental welfare officer

00:42:25employed by the Social Services Department

00:42:27of the County Council.

00:42:28I'm a social worker.

00:42:30I beg your pardon?

00:42:32We're known as social workers nowadays.

00:42:34Oh, I see.

00:42:38And were Miss Berger and Miss Watson

00:42:40under your care from February 1972

00:42:42until the date of their deaths?

00:42:44Yes.

00:42:45What was wrong with them?

00:42:47Miss Berger had a manic depression illness.

00:42:49Miss Watson was also depressive.

00:42:51Both had very low IQs.

00:42:53They were mentally ill?

00:42:55Oh, yes.

00:42:56Then why were they not in a mental hospital?

00:42:58They were being retained under what is called

00:43:00community care.

00:43:02That is, they were not quite ill enough to be certified.

00:43:05With our mental hospital so grossly overcrowded anyhow,

00:43:07they stand a better chance of improvement

00:43:09in their own home,

00:43:09where they will be surrounded by normal people.

00:43:13Did you see them regularly?

00:43:15About once a week.

00:43:16During one of these visits,

00:43:18did you witness an argument

00:43:19between your patients

00:43:20and their downstairs neighbour?

00:43:23It was one afternoon when I was visiting.

00:43:25I was sitting with my two patients

00:43:27in their living room

00:43:27when I heard the front door of the flat downstairs

00:43:30being unlocked and opened.

00:43:32The division between the two flats

00:43:34was so thin that you could actually hear this?

00:43:36Yes.

00:43:37Go on, please.

00:43:39After a moment,

00:43:40I heard a man's voice shout out

00:43:41as if he'd been frightened or alarmed in some way.

00:43:45My two patients immediately started to giggle.

00:43:48I said,

00:43:49what have you been up to?

00:43:50And Elizabeth,

00:43:52that was the younger one,

00:43:53said nothing.

00:43:55Then there was a knock at their front door.

00:43:58Neither of them moved,

00:43:59so I told Mavis,

00:44:00the older one,

00:44:01to go and answer it.

00:44:02She did,

00:44:02and I heard an argument on the landing.

00:44:04Could you tell who it was with?

00:44:06Yes.

00:44:07I'd met Mr Holloway on several occasions

00:44:09and it was his voice.

00:44:10What was the argument about?

00:44:13Apparently someone had pushed

00:44:15offal through his letterbox

00:44:17and he was asking if they knew who.

00:44:19What sort of offal?

00:44:21Excreta.

00:44:22Did either of your patients

00:44:24admit to having done it?

00:44:26No.

00:44:27But Mavis screamed at him

00:44:29that if he made such accusations again,

00:44:30she would do so.

00:44:32Then she slammed the door on him

00:44:33and came grinning back into the room.

00:44:35I said,

00:44:36that was a bit unnecessary,

00:44:37wasn't it?

00:44:38She just grinned.

00:44:40What was Mr Holloway's tone

00:44:42during this exchange?

00:44:44Polite and reasonable.

00:44:46I asked them about the other occasions

00:44:47he complained to them.

00:44:48My lord,

00:44:48we really can't hear this.

00:44:49I think perhaps we can,

00:44:51Mr...

00:44:51Tapp, my lord.

00:44:53Yes.

00:44:54Statements which tend to show

00:44:55a relevant person's

00:44:56mental or emotional state

00:44:59are exceptions to the hearsay rule.

00:45:01My lord.

00:45:03Go on, please, Mrs Tonks.

00:45:05They replied that he always spoke to them

00:45:07in that way.

00:45:08Quietly and reasonably.

00:45:10Yes.

00:45:11Now,

00:45:12did you visit the Holloway's flat

00:45:14on the morning of October the 4th?

00:45:17That is the day that the shooting took place.

00:45:20Yes.

00:45:21And did you see both the Holloway's?

00:45:23Yes.

00:45:24Did you notice anything in particular

00:45:25about Mrs Holloway?

00:45:26Yes, she was looking very ill.

00:45:28In what way?

00:45:30She was grey

00:45:31and really drawn

00:45:32as if she hadn't slept for several weeks.

00:45:34And she was very jumpy.

00:45:35How do you mean,

00:45:37jumpy?

00:45:38She looked about to have a breakdown.

00:45:40Thank you, Mrs Tonks.

00:45:44Yes, Mr. Tapp.

00:45:48You a doctor, Mrs Tonks?

00:45:50No.

00:45:52Not medically qualified in any way?

00:45:55No.

00:45:56Not as a psychiatrist?

00:45:59Well, I...

00:46:00Just answer the questions, please.

00:46:01Are you a qualified psychiatrist?

00:46:03No.

00:46:03Then your observations are purely those of...

00:46:08of an amateur?

00:46:08I am a qualified social worker

00:46:12attached to a psychiatric unit.

00:46:13Cups of tea and chatter?

00:46:15Only someone totally ignorant...

00:46:17Wouldn't you agree there's nothing worse

00:46:18than an amateur psychiatrist?

00:46:19Yes.

00:46:20One meets so many of them in the courts.

00:46:24Be that as it may.

00:46:27Mrs Tonks,

00:46:28your testimony as to the mental state

00:46:29of any of those involved in this tragic story

00:46:32is purely that of a totally unqualified amateur.

00:46:35Would you agree?

00:46:36Yes.

00:46:37Yes.

00:46:37And the fact that you say you overheard one argument

00:46:39in no way shows what the others were like.

00:46:42They always told me.

00:46:44They were always completely truthful to you, were they?

00:46:47About everything?

00:46:48Yes.

00:46:49Then who do you think put that stuff

00:46:51through the letterbox?

00:46:54They did.

00:46:55They lied about that?

00:46:57Yes.

00:46:57Then all their statements about these arguments

00:46:59are worthless.

00:47:02Mrs Tonks,

00:47:03was this conflict unique in your experience?

00:47:06I know of at least five other households

00:47:08where the wonder is there's been nothing like this so far.

00:47:10Exactly.

00:47:10It's a fact, isn't it,

00:47:11that this suburban syndrome,

00:47:13as it's sometimes called,

00:47:14is a pretty common situation?

00:47:16Yes.

00:47:17Stresses of urban life, we're told.

00:47:20Why don't the others end in tragedy?

00:47:23Luck.

00:47:27Does your lordship have any questions?

00:47:29Yes, Mrs Tonks.

00:47:30Did you receive a number of complaints

00:47:32about your two patients from the police?

00:47:34Yes.

00:47:34What did you do about them?

00:47:37Nothing.

00:47:38My responsibilities were to my patients.

00:47:40They might have regressed.

00:47:41And those whose lives were being made a misery,

00:47:43you felt no responsibility towards them?

00:47:46Of course I felt sorry for them.

00:47:47But not responsible.

00:47:50Look, I didn't make the system.

00:47:54Now, if you had taken some action

00:47:57over these complaints,

00:47:59do you not now feel that perhaps

00:48:01your two patients might still be alive?

00:48:04Yes.

00:48:10You may step down.

00:48:12My lord...

00:48:12All this coming and going, Mr Lloyd,

00:48:15I suppose it means you want an adjournment?

00:48:17I would be most grateful, my lord.

00:48:19I would like the opportunity for a second psychiatrist

00:48:22to examine the defendant.

00:48:24Yes, yes, I think you're justified.

00:48:26I will adjourn the court until tomorrow

00:48:29and then we will hear the prosecution's new witness.

00:48:34All stand.

00:49:05Charles Holloway,

00:49:05will be resumed tomorrow

00:49:06in the Crown Court.

00:49:08Charles Holloway,

00:49:31the manager of a newspaper kiosk

00:49:32on Fulchester Station,

00:49:33has confessed to killing his two upstairs neighbours

00:49:36by shooting them.

00:49:37Nevertheless,

00:49:37he's pleaded not guilty to murder.

00:49:40His counsel claims that at the time

00:49:41he was suffering from a psychiatric condition

00:49:43which made him not responsible for what he did.

00:49:46We return to the Crown Court

00:49:47as a psychiatrist gives evidence for the prosecution.

00:49:51Dr Singer,

00:49:52you've been in court

00:49:52throughout the greater part of this trial.

00:49:54Yes.

00:49:55You've heard and observed

00:49:56and now you've examined

00:49:57the defendant, Charles Holloway.

00:49:58Yes, of course.

00:49:59Now, you've heard Dr Dudley

00:50:00describe Mr Holloway's mental state

00:50:02at the time of the killing

00:50:03as hysterical dissociation.

00:50:05Would you agree with that?

00:50:06No.

00:50:07You disagree?

00:50:08Yes, as usual,

00:50:08I disagree with Dr Dudley.

00:50:10You see,

00:50:10the hysterical syndrome

00:50:11is not psychotic.

00:50:13It wouldn't absolve him

00:50:14from responsibility.

00:50:16He would have been in full control

00:50:17of his faculties.

00:50:19Hysteria merely helps one

00:50:20to forget temporary duty.

00:50:22Then would he have been

00:50:23fully responsible

00:50:24for what he did?

00:50:25Yes.

00:50:26Well, he wanted to plead guilty,

00:50:28didn't he?

00:50:28He himself knows he's responsible.

00:50:31And your learned friend

00:50:33telling him not to,

00:50:34it's, well,

00:50:34it's just irresponsible.

00:50:37Yes.

00:50:37Thank you, Doctor.

00:50:41Dr Singer,

00:50:42have you examined the defendant?

00:50:44Yes, last night.

00:50:45But never analysed him before that?

00:50:47You don't mean analysed,

00:50:49you mean assessed.

00:50:49But as I said,

00:50:50I never met him

00:50:50before my examination

00:50:51of him last night.

00:50:52And yet you feel

00:50:53perfectly competent

00:50:54to deny the opinion

00:50:55of a most distinguished psychiatrist

00:50:57who has examined him

00:50:58several times

00:50:59and reported upon him

00:51:00at length?

00:51:01That's right.

00:51:03Do you usually form

00:51:04your opinion so quickly?

00:51:06No, it varies.

00:51:07Sometimes first impressions

00:51:08are firmer

00:51:09than subsequent opinions.

00:51:11Well, how long

00:51:12would you deal

00:51:12with a subject

00:51:13before diagnosing

00:51:14his mental state?

00:51:15I can make a broad

00:51:17classification

00:51:17within a few seconds.

00:51:18A few seconds?

00:51:19Well, it's not difficult.

00:51:20If I'm introduced

00:51:21to someone at a party,

00:51:22I often say to myself,

00:51:23schizoid or hysterical

00:51:25while I'm still

00:51:25shaking hands.

00:51:27Very alarming.

00:51:28Not really.

00:51:30And are you ever wrong?

00:51:31Not when the symptoms

00:51:33are of the classic type,

00:51:34no.

00:51:34I see.

00:51:36Now, in the case

00:51:36of the defendant?

00:51:38He's a rigid repressive,

00:51:39prone to hysterical reaction.

00:51:41Oh, you agree about that?

00:51:43That is my opinion.

00:51:44I mean you agree

00:51:45with Dr. Dudley.

00:51:46I've told you my opinion.

00:51:48Whether it agrees

00:51:48with Dudley

00:51:49is of no interest

00:51:50to me whatever.

00:51:51Do you know Dr. Dudley?

00:51:53I do have that

00:51:54uncertain fortune, yes.

00:51:55What is your professional

00:51:57relationship to Dr. Dudley?

00:51:59He's got cobwebs.

00:52:01Thank your pardon?

00:52:02I mean,

00:52:02his notions,

00:52:04they're outdated.

00:52:06And yet you agree

00:52:07on the basic phenomena

00:52:08of this case?

00:52:09Look,

00:52:10it came to this.

00:52:11This man shot those women

00:52:12during a period

00:52:13of hysterically motivated

00:52:14dissociation.

00:52:16That is a breakdown

00:52:17in integration

00:52:17of thought and action.

00:52:19Now,

00:52:19that doesn't account

00:52:20for what he did.

00:52:21It merely explains

00:52:22his lack of reaction

00:52:23to it.

00:52:24It doesn't absolve him

00:52:25from responsibility.

00:52:27He knew what he was doing,

00:52:28that it was his fault.

00:52:29He said so himself.

00:52:30So he was responsible?

00:52:32Yes.

00:52:33You're quite certain

00:52:34about that?

00:52:35That's right.

00:52:35Beyond any shadow

00:52:36of a doubt?

00:52:37Yes.

00:52:37Because you're always

00:52:38right, aren't you?

00:52:40Naturally,

00:52:40I believe I'm right.

00:52:42Dr. Singer,

00:52:42did you resign

00:52:43from the British

00:52:43Psychiatric Society

00:52:44in 1962?

00:52:46What?

00:52:47Oh, come now,

00:52:47surely you haven't

00:52:48forgotten.

00:52:50They asked for your

00:52:50resignation.

00:52:51You had a row about it

00:52:52and they got into

00:52:53several of the papers.

00:52:54That has nothing

00:52:55to do with this case.

00:52:55And were not the

00:52:56society then called upon

00:52:57to make a public

00:52:58statement about their

00:52:59reasons for calling

00:53:00for your resignation?

00:53:02And they said,

00:53:03Dr. Singer's views

00:53:04are so clearly critical

00:53:05of standards of

00:53:06psychiatric practice

00:53:07in Britain

00:53:07and the aims

00:53:08of this society

00:53:09that we feel

00:53:10he'd be better

00:53:11not to be numbered

00:53:11amongst us.

00:53:13That doesn't mean

00:53:13that they're right

00:53:14and I'm wrong.

00:53:15But that is what

00:53:16they said, isn't it?

00:53:17I don't remember.

00:53:18It's not important.

00:53:18And they do represent

00:53:19the bulk of established

00:53:20opinion, do they not?

00:53:21Perhaps there's no room

00:53:22for establishments

00:53:23of opinion in psychiatry.

00:53:26Any re-examination,

00:53:27Mr. Lloyd?

00:53:29You may go.

00:53:32Mr. Lloyd,

00:53:33do you have any

00:53:34other witnesses

00:53:35you wish to call?

00:53:35Yes, my lord.

00:53:36One more.

00:53:37I have indicated

00:53:38to my friend

00:53:38what his evidence

00:53:39will be.

00:53:40This is a witness

00:53:40who only came forward

00:53:41last night.

00:53:42His evidence

00:53:42was not relevant

00:53:43until then.

00:53:44Mr. O'Connor.

00:53:46No objection, my lord.

00:53:48Very well, then.

00:53:48Let's hear your new witness,

00:53:50Mr. Lloyd.

00:53:50I call James John

00:53:52Allwright.

00:53:57You are James John

00:53:58Allwright

00:53:59of 42 Madeira Road

00:54:00and your station

00:54:01and your station

00:54:01master of

00:54:02Fulchester Railway Station.

00:54:03Manager.

00:54:04Station manager,

00:54:04we call it now.

00:54:06Manager.

00:54:06Beg your pardon.

00:54:07You must keep up

00:54:07the times.

00:54:08Yes.

00:54:08Now, you know

00:54:09the accused?

00:54:10Yes.

00:54:10I've known him

00:54:11for four years.

00:54:11He's got his kiosk

00:54:12on my station.

00:54:13Papers and so forth,

00:54:14magazines, comics,

00:54:14that sort of thing.

00:54:15How do you get on

00:54:16with him?

00:54:16Oh, I'm very well

00:54:17indeed.

00:54:17Very easy man,

00:54:18you know,

00:54:18to get on with.

00:54:19Oh, yes.

00:54:19Never loses his temper?

00:54:21No, never.

00:54:21So when he did,

00:54:22it was a shock.

00:54:23He did lose it?

00:54:24That's correct, yes.

00:54:25I've just said that.

00:54:25Just once in four years?

00:54:26That's correct, yes.

00:54:28A customer comes up

00:54:28to me and says...

00:54:29Just a minute, please.

00:54:30Where was this?

00:54:31Platform 3,

00:54:327.45 in the morning.

00:54:33I'm always about then,

00:54:34keep the lads at it,

00:54:35bust them along,

00:54:35you know.

00:54:36Yes, yes.

00:54:36What happened?

00:54:38Well, this customer says,

00:54:39had I seen the Holloways?

00:54:40I'm sorry,

00:54:40you can't tell us

00:54:41what he actually said to you,

00:54:42but he did say something

00:54:43about the Holloways?

00:54:44Yes.

00:54:44Yes, now I should have

00:54:45asked this before.

00:54:46What was the date of this?

00:54:48October the 5th.

00:54:48You're quite sure of that?

00:54:49Absolutely.

00:54:50That is, members of the jury,

00:54:52the morning immediately

00:54:53after the shooting.

00:54:55It is some six hours

00:54:56before Holloway claimed

00:54:58he told his wife,

00:54:59and it's some 11 hours

00:55:00before he told the police.

00:55:01That's correct, yes.

00:55:03Hmm, thank you.

00:55:04And what did you do?

00:55:06Well, I went along

00:55:06to the kiosk

00:55:07to have a look for myself.

00:55:08Can't have customers

00:55:08being made rude at, can we?

00:55:10And what did you observe?

00:55:11Well, they were in a state,

00:55:12all right.

00:55:12Mrs Holloway, well,

00:55:13she looked very ill-exhausted-like.

00:55:14She looked at me crying all night,

00:55:15couldn't scarcely tell

00:55:16what she was doing.

00:55:17Holloway, well,

00:55:18he was about to have

00:55:18a breakdown, I thought.

00:55:19He was actually shaking

00:55:20and barking

00:55:21and slanging the customers

00:55:22and banging things about.

00:55:23Well, it was a shock.

00:55:25Then I heard him

00:55:25actually shout at a customer.

00:55:27Oh, real temper,

00:55:28that was an explosion

00:55:29of real temper, I might say.

00:55:30Now, would you have described him

00:55:31as being in a dream

00:55:33or that his emotions

00:55:35were frozen?

00:55:36What?

00:55:37If someone had said

00:55:37to you that morning

00:55:38that Mr Holloway

00:55:39was in a dream

00:55:40or that his emotions

00:55:41were frozen,

00:55:43what would you have said?

00:55:44I'd have said

00:55:44they wanted their heads examined.

00:55:46I've just said the opposite,

00:55:46haven't I?

00:55:47Indeed you have, Mr Allwright.

00:55:48Thank you very much.

00:55:49You were aware,

00:55:52were you not,

00:55:53Mr Allwright,

00:55:54that both the Holloways

00:55:55have been under

00:55:55intolerable strain

00:55:57for three years?

00:55:58Not them.

00:56:00You weren't?

00:56:01They never spoke about it.

00:56:02What, never?

00:56:03No.

00:56:03But you knew

00:56:04that Mrs Holloway

00:56:05had been ill?

00:56:06Oh, yes.

00:56:06So there was nothing

00:56:07desperately surprising

00:56:08about seeing her ill

00:56:09that morning?

00:56:10This is much worse.

00:56:11Oh, yes,

00:56:12the shaking and so forth.

00:56:14What was the weather

00:56:15like that morning?

00:56:16Weather?

00:56:17Yes, the weather.

00:56:18Now, look,

00:56:18you can't tell me

00:56:19that the weather...

00:56:19The first week in October

00:56:20was very cold.

00:56:20There were dawn temperatures

00:56:21of six degrees of frost.

00:56:23You don't recall?

00:56:24No.

00:56:24Oh, well,

00:56:25perhaps you'll have a gardener

00:56:26like me.

00:56:27But we were all taken unawares,

00:56:29so it's not surprising

00:56:30that they were shaking

00:56:31and irritable.

00:56:32I'd forgotten.

00:56:33Yes, you had,

00:56:34hadn't you?

00:56:35You were very quick

00:56:36to agree with my learned friend

00:56:38that this incident

00:56:38took place on the morning

00:56:39after the shooting.

00:56:41You couldn't have known

00:56:41so at the time.

00:56:42I've seen it since

00:56:43in the papers.

00:56:44Oh, yes,

00:56:45you've followed it

00:56:46in all the newspapers.

00:56:47Of course.

00:56:48When did you first

00:56:50discuss this incident,

00:56:51the Holloway's demeanour,

00:56:52with anyone?

00:56:53Last night.

00:56:54Last night.

00:56:55When I was approached

00:56:55about coming here.

00:56:56And that was the first time

00:56:57that you've discussed it?

00:56:58Yes.

00:56:59You see,

00:57:00I suggest, Mr Allwright,

00:57:01that the incident

00:57:02that you were

00:57:02described may not

00:57:03have taken place

00:57:04on October 5th at all.

00:57:06Oh, yes, it was.

00:57:06Well, it may have been

00:57:07about then,

00:57:08but since you've been

00:57:09taking such a keen

00:57:10interest in it,

00:57:11following it in the press

00:57:12and all that,

00:57:12you have both exaggerated it

00:57:14and given it a date,

00:57:15whereas before,

00:57:16it was just a vague memory.

00:57:17I remember it clearly.

00:57:19Definitely October 5th.

00:57:20Yes.

00:57:21And you've a very good

00:57:22memory for dates.

00:57:22I've a very good memory

00:57:23altogether.

00:57:24Then what else

00:57:24happened on that day?

00:57:26What?

00:57:27Oh, come here,

00:57:27your memory for comparative

00:57:29trivia is so good.

00:57:30What else happened

00:57:31on October 5th

00:57:32which has far greater

00:57:33importance to you

00:57:34at the time?

00:57:36What do you mean?

00:57:37Well, did nothing else

00:57:38happen to you on that day?

00:57:39I thought I was here

00:57:40to talk about the holidays.

00:57:40The local men

00:57:41had a one-day strike.

00:57:43There were no

00:57:43mainline trains at all.

00:57:45Oh, yes.

00:57:48You didn't remember

00:57:49at all, did you?

00:57:50I've a very good memory.

00:57:51Well, I'm sure the jury

00:57:52can reach their own

00:57:53conclusions about that.

00:57:55I've no further questions

00:57:56for this witness, my lord.

00:57:58Do your lordship

00:57:58have any questions?

00:57:59No, thank you.

00:58:00All right, mister.

00:58:02Yes, you may go.

00:58:05I think the accused

00:58:06had better be recalled now.

00:58:08Come down to the witness

00:58:09box again, please,

00:58:10Mr Holloway.

00:58:15I would remind you

00:58:26again that you are

00:58:27still on earth.

00:58:28Yes, my lord.

00:58:29I have no question.

00:58:30Mr Lloyd.

00:58:33Mr Holloway,

00:58:34from about three o'clock

00:58:35on the afternoon

00:58:36of October 4th

00:58:37when you saw your wife

00:58:38weeping

00:58:38to about one o'clock

00:58:39the following day,

00:58:40it is claimed that you

00:58:41suffered from a mental

00:58:43abnormality called

00:58:44hysterical dissociation.

00:58:46It was certainly

00:58:47very odd.

00:58:48Well, it has been claimed

00:58:49that in this state

00:58:51you didn't understand

00:58:51the consequences

00:58:52of what you were doing.

00:58:53Yes.

00:58:54Yes, you agree?

00:58:55Yes.

00:58:57Well, do you remember

00:58:57the actual shooting?

00:58:59In a way.

00:59:00Well, would you describe

00:59:01what you do remember

00:59:02as clearly as you can?

00:59:06Well, I took the gun

00:59:07in my right hand.

00:59:08Where was it normally kept?

00:59:10In a box in the wardrobe

00:59:11with my papers.

00:59:12The bullets too?

00:59:13Yes.

00:59:14And I went upstairs.

00:59:17The door was open.

00:59:18There, front door?

00:59:20Yes.

00:59:21There's a small landing

00:59:22at the top.

00:59:24I raised my left hand

00:59:26to open the door

00:59:27and I stepped inside.

00:59:28Go on.

00:59:31Well, one of the women

00:59:32was there in the kitchen

00:59:33and the other was over

00:59:35there in the bathroom.

00:59:36Both doors were open

00:59:37and they both looked up

00:59:40at me.

00:59:41Rather surprised, I think.

00:59:43Did they speak?

00:59:46Don't think so.

00:59:50And then?

00:59:52I shot them.

00:59:54Which first?

00:59:54Can't remember.

01:00:00And as you shot them,

01:00:01what did you feel?

01:00:04Nothing.

01:00:04Did you remain in the flat?

01:00:06No, I came downstairs.

01:00:08The moment you shot them?

01:00:09Yes.

01:00:09You didn't stay

01:00:10to examine the body,

01:00:11see if they were dead?

01:00:14I don't remember.

01:00:15One of the cats came

01:00:18and rubbed against my leg.

01:00:20I remember that.

01:00:22And then I went downstairs.

01:00:24I put the gun

01:00:26under a dustbin

01:00:26and went inside

01:00:29to wash my hands.

01:00:31And then?

01:00:34Then we had tea.

01:00:35You had tea?

01:00:36Yes.

01:00:37Why did you hide

01:00:38the revolver?

01:00:39What?

01:00:42I don't know.

01:00:43Don't you, Mr Holloway?

01:00:45I put it to you

01:00:46that you hid it

01:00:47because it was incriminating

01:00:48and you fully understood that

01:00:50and you fully understood

01:00:50what you'd done

01:00:51and you fully understood

01:00:52the consequences.

01:00:54No.

01:00:55It was like a dream.

01:00:58And why did you hide

01:00:59the gun?

01:00:59You are Ellen Jane Holloway

01:01:23and you live with the defendant

01:01:24at 9 Creswell House,

01:01:26Fulchester.

01:01:27I'm his wife.

01:01:28And you live with him?

01:01:30Of course.

01:01:31Are you quite well,

01:01:32Mrs Holloway?

01:01:33I've not been very well.

01:01:35Are you recovered now?

01:01:37No.

01:01:39Would you tell us

01:01:39about your illness, please?

01:01:41Do I have to?

01:01:42We would be obliged

01:01:43if you would

01:01:44and it may help your husband.

01:01:45Oh.

01:01:48Well, it's those

01:01:48terrible persons upstairs.

01:01:50Did this illness

01:01:51reach a crisis point?

01:01:53Yes.

01:01:55What happened?

01:01:56One day at the pavilion

01:01:57I just couldn't go home.

01:02:00I just sat there.

01:02:02I couldn't go back.

01:02:04My legs wouldn't move.

01:02:07I couldn't go back.

01:02:09I couldn't stand there

01:02:10for one moment longer.

01:02:11but my husband

01:02:15he persuaded me

01:02:17in the end.

01:02:20He's a dear man.

01:02:23He got me onto a bus

01:02:24and we went home.

01:02:26He looked after me.

01:02:28Can you remember

01:02:29the date when this happened?

01:02:31Yes, it was.

01:02:33Yes?

01:02:34The date.

01:02:36Would you like to sit down

01:02:37for a moment,

01:02:38Mrs Holloway?

01:02:38The day he shot them.

01:02:43The day that your husband

01:02:45shot these two women?

01:02:46Yes.

01:02:48Were you aware

01:02:49of what had happened?

01:02:51Of course not.

01:02:53He gave no indication

01:02:55of what he was about to do?

01:02:56No.

01:02:58And after this?

01:03:02After what?

01:03:03Well, after he appeared again.

01:03:06After he'd shot the two women.

01:03:09We had tea.

01:03:13When did he tell you

01:03:14what he had done?

01:03:16The next day.

01:03:18About four o'clock

01:03:19the next afternoon

01:03:20he sat me down

01:03:21and he told me.

01:03:22He said,

01:03:23I think I've shot

01:03:25those two creatures upstairs.

01:03:27Did he say

01:03:27why he'd not told you before?

01:03:30He told me

01:03:30he wasn't sure

01:03:31that he had done it.

01:03:33It was the dogs

01:03:34that convinced him.

01:03:36The dogs?

01:03:37They were howling.

01:03:42So he went up

01:03:43and looked.

01:03:44Yes.

01:03:46Lying there.

01:03:48They hadn't moved.

01:03:50And what was the effect

01:03:52of this on you?

01:03:54I had a complete

01:03:55nervous breakdown.

01:03:56I've been in hospital

01:03:57ever since.

01:03:59Thank you,

01:03:59Mrs Holloway.

01:04:03Mrs Holloway,

01:04:04did you know

01:04:05your husband

01:04:05had a gun?

01:04:07Oh, yes.

01:04:07Where was it kept?

01:04:09In the wardrobe.

01:04:10He'd had it since the army.

01:04:12And what exactly

01:04:13were you doing

01:04:14while he was upstairs

01:04:15putting an end

01:04:17to these women?

01:04:18Making the tea.

01:04:20And you had no idea

01:04:21what he'd done

01:04:22until he told you

01:04:22the next day?

01:04:24That's right.

01:04:25Mrs Holloway,

01:04:26why didn't you

01:04:28hear the shots?

01:04:29What?

01:04:30We've heard

01:04:31how the divisions

01:04:32between your two flats

01:04:33were wafer thin,

01:04:34how you could hear

01:04:35each other's slightest

01:04:36movements.

01:04:37So why didn't you

01:04:38hear the shots?

01:04:40I don't know.

01:04:41It's a very large gun.

01:04:42The reports must have

01:04:43been very loud indeed.

01:04:45Why didn't you

01:04:45hear them?

01:04:47Well, I remember

01:04:48now.

01:04:48I thought it must be

01:04:50a lorry backfiring.

01:04:52Immediately above your head?

01:04:55What?

01:04:55And twice.

01:04:57Please.

01:04:58I don't feel very well.

01:05:00Give her a chair, please.

01:05:11Are you all right?

01:05:13Mrs Holloway,

01:05:14I think we should continue

01:05:15if you are able to.

01:05:18I'm all right now.

01:05:21You see, Mrs Holloway,

01:05:22I put it to you

01:05:24that you knew

01:05:25perfectly well

01:05:26what was happening.

01:05:27I put it to you

01:05:27that you heard your husband

01:05:28take that gun

01:05:29from the wardrobe,

01:05:30you heard your husband

01:05:30go upstairs,

01:05:31and you heard the shots.

01:05:33But that the whole thing

01:05:34was so profoundly shocking

01:05:35to you

01:05:36that you've pushed it

01:05:36to the back of your mind,

01:05:38and you've pretended

01:05:38that it didn't happen at all.

01:05:40But it didn't.

01:05:41It didn't.

01:05:43I mean, I didn't know.

01:05:44And that is precisely

01:05:45what your husband has done.

01:05:47His memory has rejected it.

01:05:49It's a common human foible

01:05:50to reject something

01:05:51you find horrific.

01:05:52It's just that you

01:05:53and your husband,

01:05:53you've taken it

01:05:54to an extreme degree.

01:05:56No!

01:05:57And you knew

01:05:58what he was going to do

01:05:59before he went

01:06:00to shoot them.

01:06:01That is not true.

01:06:03No further questions.

01:06:07I have no re-examination,

01:06:08my lord.

01:06:08Anyway, is that your evidence?

01:06:10It is, my lord.

01:06:11Thank you, Mrs Holloway.

01:06:12You may go and sit over there.

01:06:16Mr Lloyd?

01:06:16Members of the jury,

01:06:19murder is a heinous crime,

01:06:21but it is a simple one.

01:06:23It is the unlawfully killing

01:06:25of a reasonable creature

01:06:26with malice aforethought.

01:06:28Now, the defendant admits

01:06:30that he did kill the two women

01:06:31by shooting them,

01:06:32so that what is at issue

01:06:33is whether he did so deliberately,

01:06:36whether he planned it,

01:06:37and whether he was fully responsible

01:06:39for what he did.

01:06:41Now, the defence,

01:06:42and the only defence,

01:06:43put forward,

01:06:44is the claim that

01:06:45at the time of the offence,

01:06:46and apparently only at that time,

01:06:48the defendant suffered

01:06:50from a mental abnormality

01:06:52which meant he was not aware

01:06:53of what he was doing.

01:06:55Now, despite the defence

01:06:56calling in expert psychiatry

01:06:59with its complex theorems

01:07:00and its convoluted terminology,

01:07:03in the end,

01:07:04we only have Mr Holloway's word

01:07:06for how he felt

01:07:08at the time of the shooting.

01:07:09And I put it to you

01:07:10that Mr Holloway's word

01:07:11is, to say the least,

01:07:13suspect.

01:07:13Mr Holloway told the police

01:07:15that he'd had the fatal bullets

01:07:16since the war.

01:07:17That was a lie.

01:07:19Mr Holloway told the police,

01:07:20and you,

01:07:21and me,

01:07:22and everyone else in the court,

01:07:23that he'd had the gun

01:07:24since the war.

01:07:25That was a lie.

01:07:27Mr Holloway says

01:07:28that he's never lost

01:07:29his temper in his life.

01:07:30That is plainly a lie.

01:07:31You saw him lose his temper

01:07:33here in this court with me,

01:07:34even if I did provoke him.

01:07:36And Mr Allwright,

01:07:37the station master,

01:07:38even if he's got the date wrong,

01:07:39still shows that Mr Holloway

01:07:41clearly lost his temper

01:07:42with customers

01:07:43at the railway station.

01:07:44So Mr Holloway's word

01:07:46is suspect.

01:07:48But even if we accept

01:07:49his word

01:07:50about him being in a dream

01:07:52with his emotions frozen,

01:07:54unaware of what he was doing,

01:07:56why then

01:07:56did he hide the gun?

01:08:00Now that surely

01:08:01is the conscious action

01:08:02of a guilty man.

01:08:04Now members of the jury,

01:08:05you may be tempted

01:08:06to feel sympathy

01:08:07for the situation

01:08:09that the Holloways

01:08:10found themselves in.

01:08:11And indeed,

01:08:12I'm sure none of us

01:08:13would wish to live

01:08:14under those circumstances.

01:08:16However,

01:08:17Charles Holloway

01:08:18knew perfectly well

01:08:20that both his neighbours

01:08:22were mentally defective

01:08:23under care

01:08:24of the local welfare authorities,

01:08:26hardly responsible

01:08:27for their actions.

01:08:29He could have sympathised

01:08:30with that.

01:08:31He could have moved away.

01:08:33Instead,

01:08:34he called them nuts,

01:08:37creatures,

01:08:38he threatened them,

01:08:39and finally

01:08:40he coldly,

01:08:42consciously,

01:08:43neatly,

01:08:44and deliberately

01:08:45shot them both dead.

01:08:48And that is something

01:08:49that cannot be sympathised with.

01:08:51I must ask you

01:08:52to find him guilty

01:08:53of murder

01:08:54on both charges.

01:09:00Members of the jury,

01:09:02you have to decide

01:09:03if my client

01:09:04is a murderer.

01:09:06That is,

01:09:07did he plan

01:09:07and execute

01:09:08these murders

01:09:09deliberately

01:09:10and responsibly.

01:09:12Now,

01:09:13the only evidence

01:09:13the prosecution

01:09:14has brought forward

01:09:15to suggest

01:09:16that this was part

01:09:16of a cool

01:09:17and deliberate plan

01:09:18is the purchase

01:09:19of the bullet

01:09:20some months before.

01:09:21Now,

01:09:21my client

01:09:22has fully explained this

01:09:23and the prosecution

01:09:24have chosen

01:09:25to accept

01:09:27this explanation.

01:09:28I leave it to you

01:09:30to decide why.

01:09:33Now,

01:09:33as to the question

01:09:34of Mr Holloway's

01:09:34state of mind,

01:09:36you have heard

01:09:36the opinion

01:09:36of a most eminent

01:09:37psychiatrist

01:09:38who described this

01:09:39as a classic case

01:09:40of his

01:09:40derical dissociation

01:09:42in which my client

01:09:43was not responsible

01:09:44for what he did.

01:09:46Now,

01:09:46the prosecution

01:09:47have made much

01:09:47of my client's

01:09:48outburst of rage

01:09:49here in this court.

01:09:50But I ask you,

01:09:51which of us

01:09:52would not react

01:09:52with rage

01:09:53if after three years

01:09:54of intolerable stress

01:09:55and a trial for murder,

01:09:57one's wife was called

01:09:58a liar,

01:09:59publicly insulted.

01:10:00In any event,

01:10:02an outburst of rage

01:10:03is the very opposite

01:10:04condition implied

01:10:05by this method

01:10:06of killing.

01:10:07Can any man

01:10:08boiling over

01:10:09with blind rage

01:10:10accurately

01:10:11and deliberately

01:10:12fire two shots

01:10:13each exactly

01:10:14into the left ventricle?

01:10:16A police surgeon

01:10:17has told us

01:10:18that this would be

01:10:18impossible.

01:10:21Ladies and gentlemen,

01:10:22do you accept

01:10:23that the prosecution

01:10:24has proved

01:10:25firstly that this man

01:10:26cold-bloodedly

01:10:27planned and executed

01:10:28two deliberate murders,

01:10:30secondly that he was

01:10:31fully in command

01:10:32of himself

01:10:32and knew exactly

01:10:33what he was doing

01:10:34throughout,

01:10:35and thirdly that he

01:10:36has since acted out

01:10:37the symptoms

01:10:37of a little-known

01:10:38mental abnormality

01:10:39sufficiently well

01:10:40to convince

01:10:40an acknowledged expert.

01:10:44Mr Holloway

01:10:45is a victim

01:10:46of most tragic

01:10:47circumstances.

01:10:49He killed,

01:10:50but he is not

01:10:51a murderer.

01:10:52I suggest to you

01:10:55it is your duty

01:10:55to bring in

01:10:56a verdict

01:10:57of manslaughter

01:10:58due to diminished

01:10:59responsibility,

01:11:00because that is

01:11:01the proper verdict

01:11:02on the evidence.

01:11:05Members of the jury,

01:11:06it falls to me

01:11:07to instruct you

01:11:07as to the law

01:11:08in this matter.

01:11:09Now, the charge

01:11:10is murder,

01:11:11and there could

01:11:11possibly be three

01:11:12verdicts open to you.

01:11:14Guilty of murder,

01:11:16not guilty of murder,

01:11:17but guilty of manslaughter

01:11:18due to provocation

01:11:19or diminished responsibility,

01:11:21and not guilty

01:11:23of any crime at all.

01:11:24But it is not disputed

01:11:26that the accused

01:11:26Holloway

01:11:27caused the deaths

01:11:28of the Mrs. Berger

01:11:30and Watson,

01:11:31and that he intended

01:11:32to do so at the time.

01:11:33Therefore, clearly,

01:11:34the third choice,

01:11:35that of not guilty

01:11:36of any crime at all,

01:11:38is not open to you.

01:11:41Now, a man is guilty

01:11:43of murdering another

01:11:44if he, with intent

01:11:46to cause death

01:11:47or really serious harm,

01:11:48does an act

01:11:49which brings about

01:11:50the death

01:11:51of that other person.

01:11:52What would otherwise

01:11:53be murder

01:11:54is reduced to manslaughter

01:11:55if the killer's

01:11:56moral responsibility

01:11:57is impaired

01:11:58by provocation

01:12:01or by being in a state

01:12:03of diminished responsibility.

01:12:06Counsel has not put forward

01:12:07provocation in his defence,

01:12:09so we are left

01:12:10with diminished responsibility.

01:12:13Now, the accused

01:12:14would have been

01:12:14in a state

01:12:15of diminished responsibility

01:12:16if he had been suffering

01:12:19from such abnormality

01:12:21of mind

01:12:22as substantially impaired

01:12:24his mental responsibility

01:12:26for his act.

01:12:27Therefore, if you are convinced

01:12:28by the psychiatric evidence

01:12:31of hysterical dissociation

01:12:33that the accused

01:12:34was suffering from

01:12:36such abnormality of mind

01:12:38as impaired

01:12:40his mental responsibility,

01:12:42then the diminished responsibility

01:12:44will have been established.

01:12:46Lastly, I would reiterate

01:12:48learned counsel's advice

01:12:50to you about any sympathy

01:12:51you may feel

01:12:52towards the accused.

01:12:54Your responsibility

01:12:55is to find

01:12:56as to the facts

01:12:57in relation to the law,

01:12:59and you mustn't allow

01:13:00any other consideration

01:13:02to enter

01:13:03into your deliberations.

01:13:05Will you now please

01:13:06retire

01:13:06and consider

01:13:07your verdicts?

01:13:09All stand.

01:13:13Members of the jury,

01:13:14will your foreman

01:13:15please stand?

01:13:16Just to answer this question,

01:13:18yes or no,

01:13:18have you reached verdicts

01:13:20on which you are all agreed?

01:13:21Yes.

01:13:22On the first count

01:13:23of murdering

01:13:23Mavis Berger,

01:13:25do you find the accused

01:13:26guilty or not guilty?

01:13:27Not guilty of murder,

01:13:29but guilty of manslaughter.

01:13:32On the second count

01:13:33of murdering

01:13:33Elizabeth Pearl Watson,

01:13:35do you find the accused

01:13:36guilty or not guilty?

01:13:38Not guilty of murder,

01:13:40but guilty of manslaughter.

01:13:43Charles Holloway,

01:13:44I am satisfied

01:13:45that you are no danger

01:13:46to the public

01:13:46and that the quite unique

01:13:48circumstances you suffered

01:13:49and which led to your crime

01:13:50are not likely to recur.

01:13:52I therefore find

01:13:52that the usual,

01:13:53long, custodial sentence

01:13:55is inappropriate,

01:13:56and I sentence you

01:13:57to three years imprisonment,

01:13:59and I recommend

01:13:59that the sentence

01:14:00be carried out

01:14:01under psychiatric supervision.

01:14:05Next week,

01:14:07you can join another jury

01:14:08when our cameras return

01:14:09to watch a leading case

01:14:10in the Crown Court.

01:14:11contact us for documents

01:14:11on www.facabelin.org,

01:14:23and you can continue

01:14:23to play with us.

01:14:29.

01:14:34.

01:14:36.

Crown Court - Nuts (1974)

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