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Short filmTranscript
00:00They said that they'd found this weapon, murder weapon.
00:21They said that it had DNA on it, but nothing of Robin.
00:25There was nothing there at all to say that Robin had done it.
00:31There was no physical piece of evidence
00:33to link Robin to the death of Dinah at all.
00:37Not on his clothes from the minute he found her
00:40to being arrested to any of it.
00:43There was nothing. There's never been anything, has there?
00:46So we were confident. Everybody kept saying,
00:48we'll be fine, we'll be fine.
00:50In terms of prosecution case, my abiding memory of the evidence
00:54is that he was eviscerated in the dock.
00:57But then the jury told in court his DNA is not on the weapon.
01:03And that's, from a prosecution perspective, really difficult.
01:08Everyone in court was thinking there is a great element of doubt there
01:11and he may be innocent.
01:13And you're in for a emergency.
01:25Armed police were scrambled to a quiet North Yorkshire hamlet this morning.
01:30The wife's been attacked.
01:31She's been attacked?
01:32He had a gun and he said to me,
01:34don't be stupid, we've got your wife.
01:3840-year-old Diana was found dead in the living quarters of the post office
01:41she ran with her husband Robin in the village of Melsenby.
01:45The husband of North Yorkshire postmistress, Diana Garbutt,
01:48has been charged with her murder.
01:50His version of events of a robber coming in and killing her,
01:52it just wasn't plausible.
01:54I started to wonder, does that make him look guilty?
02:00But clearly there were flaws in that original investigation.
02:05I think the more in the court these things came up,
02:08the more you thought, well, something's going wrong here.
02:12I'm not a police officer, I'm not a detective,
02:14but clearly something's not being done properly.
02:19Something just didn't add up.
02:21The prosecution believed Robin had been stealing from the post office
02:26over a period of time.
02:28And that was based on information provided by the Horizon system.
02:33The post office prosecuted 736 of their own staff
02:37for theft or false accounting.
02:40The real culprit, the Horizon computer system.
02:44When they finally got the records,
02:46I looked at the statements and immediately I said,
02:49hang on a minute, in my opinion, there's another side to this story.
02:54If there's flaws in this Horizon system,
02:58how can anything produced by the Horizon system
03:02be safely used in a court of law as evidence?
03:08It's about getting the truth about what happened to Diana.
03:11During the court process, you feel as if you're supposed to be in one group,
03:30or the other.
03:31Obviously his family are persuaded that he's not guilty.
03:47Whereas Di's family, her mum, Agnes, was persuaded that, you know,
03:51we've worked out what's happened, he's guilty,
03:54we're just going to go through this process of proving him guilty.
04:00I was in the, I don't know if he's guilty or not, guilty camp.
04:08I don't know what happened.
04:11Try and decide as if a, as if he was a 13th member of the jury.
04:26Members of the jury, you are now going to hear from Mr. Hill,
04:29who appears on behalf of the defense.
04:31Ladies and gentlemen, I am going to suggest the prosecution case
04:38is no more than a theory,
04:40one which the police happened upon at an early stage.
04:44The area which the prosecution have perhaps concentrated on the most
04:49is the idea of motive.
04:51The prosecution have explored two areas,
04:54Mr. Garbutt's private life and their personal finances.
04:57Hearing what people were saying about Robin Di at trial,
05:04their personal life,
05:06for a lot of people in the village it was very hurtful.
05:09They made out that she was like sleeping around and things.
05:14We have a, a close friend who had been going biking with her
05:20and, again, they had to say that that was some sort of relationship
05:24going on because she couldn't go biking with somebody on her own
05:29or whatever.
05:31In 2009 we had a bit of a rough patch.
05:34It happened sometimes with couples.
05:37Diana said she might need some space.
05:40We discussed it.
05:42When you get up at 4.30 and work late in a shop,
05:45you are tired.
05:47We didn't have enough sex.
05:49It upset Di at times, but we did discuss it.
05:52The prosecution suggested that it was a loveless marriage,
05:56that his wife was being unfaithful
05:58and was in contact with several men,
06:00either directly or through the internet.
06:05Di did confide in me quite a bit.
06:08Not about everything.
06:11We would sit and have coffee, you know,
06:14and chat, as friends would do.
06:16In terms of affairs, I didn't know any of, any of that.
06:22Um...
06:24I don't know. I can't answer that one.
06:28She quite liked to, to chat to people and just, you know,
06:32spend time with them, getting to know them,
06:35regardless of who they were or what age they were or, you know,
06:38male or female.
06:40And that could have come across as being flirtatious.
06:44The court also heard that Mrs Garbert had a page on a dating website
06:50on which she described herself as a 41-year-old girl
06:54looking to meet a guy aged between 35 and 50.
06:59The prosecution set great store by the Badu website.
07:04Although the computer crime unit trawled through Diana's laptop,
07:08there was no sign at all that she ever replied to any compliment
07:11or message saying, hello.
07:13They were saying that she was on a dating website.
07:17I didn't know that. She'd never told me that.
07:20She'd never replied to anybody on this dating site.
07:23All it was was people messaging her or liking her picture.
07:28And all I could think of was that she kind of needed that bit of an ego boost.
07:32You know, she was, and maybe her self-esteem was struggling a little bit.
07:36Did you suspect she was having affairs with other men?
07:40I didn't suspect I was having affairs.
07:43As of March, 2010, what did you think of the relationship?
07:47We had the best relationship.
07:50I thought we were a loving couple. I miss her terribly.
07:53They make him die out to be somebody that kissed and got drunk and,
07:57and flirted, and it's wrong to do that when she's not here to say why.
08:02She can't answer for herself.
08:04There was one drunken kiss, there was flirtatious banter.
08:08It wasn't anything new to Robin, was any of that?
08:10It was, erm...
08:12..a drunken kiss.
08:13Di went back to Robin and told him everything.
08:17They sorted it out, it was fine, and they carried on.
08:21The thing is, it's a year ago, it isn't a month ago, it wasn't the week.
08:25They had a wonderful marriage, didn't they?
08:27Mm-hm.
08:28They worked through the bits and bobs that they've always done that,
08:30because they've always talked, they've always been close,
08:32there only is them two, there's no children.
08:35Either of them could walk away, but they built a relationship together,
08:38and he was devoted to her, and they were fine.
08:43The prosecution said Diana Garbutt's infidelity intensified,
08:47but there is absolutely no evidence of that whatsoever.
08:52I suggest it is very, very thin evidence of motive.
08:55In fact, no evidence of motive at all.
09:00So the motive must have been their financial affairs, of course.
09:03Personal finance.
09:05Why is this a reason for him to kill his wife?
09:08Di and Robin never talked about their financials.
09:15They weren't extravagant.
09:17They didn't have luxury holidays,
09:20they didn't go out for expensive meals and things like that.
09:25But there was lots of rumours that Robin was stealing from the post office
09:31by ordering lots of money and then not sending it back.
09:39Cash management was an important part of running a branch.
09:43Part of your end-of-day procedure would be to count every single note,
09:48every single coin in the branch,
09:51and that had to be entered into the Horizon system.
09:55Once you'd done that, you could then put the money away,
09:58lock up the safe, and that was the end of your day.
10:01That assisted then this algorithm to work out whether surpluses were building up
10:07or whether funds were running low,
10:09and then it would adjust the cash that it would deliver to you.
10:14But it didn't actually work like that in practice,
10:17because invariably it was wrong.
10:20And there were always arguments between Postmaster and Cash Centre
10:24as to whether or not he could top up his holdings in the branch with extra money.
10:30It was a constant thorn in our side trying to get the cash levels right in a branch
10:36in order to serve the customers.
10:38The police and the Post Office looked into Robin and Diane's finances,
10:47and they said that Robin had been stealing over a period of time
10:51to sustain their lifestyle.
10:53They said that Robin was ordering more and more money from the Post Office
10:56and using it like a bank almost.
10:58However, there is no physical evidence of Robin doing anything untoward with money
11:03that could have been taken from the Post Office.
11:07Where did all the cash come from?
11:11We weren't desperate.
11:13We didn't take cash from the Post Office.
11:15Our credit card debt had increased.
11:18We were mindful of that.
11:20We spent weekends away at nice hotels.
11:23We spent maybe ÂŁ4,000 per annum on holidays.
11:27To the Post Office.
11:29Well, the prosecution invested a lot of time suggesting that the money may not have been in the safe.
11:35So the evidence given by the Post Office, a reputable institution,
11:40I'm sure the jury will have just taken that on board, that's going to be right.
11:43We aren't even going to question that.
11:45And to be quite honest, the way they gave it all, it lost everybody in the courtroom anyway.
11:51They lost me.
11:53If the Garbards had been in desperate financial straits,
11:57why is this a reason for him to kill his wife?
12:00It is a matter for you to consider.
12:03The prosecution evidence is essentially that it's a crime of passion.
12:06When you've got, you know, adulterous relationships,
12:09when you've got unhappiness, when you've got financial difficulties,
12:13you've got an awful lot of pressure on a relationship there, haven't you?
12:15Tension and potential, you know, motive for the murder.
12:17Do not forget, it was Diana who was doing the books.
12:21Diana who liaised with the accountant.
12:24She was the one who had a handle on the financial situation.
12:27Diana's the postmistress.
12:29The police say Diana had been doing the account,
12:32and so she would have known, before 2010, if there'd been anything missing.
12:37I think the prosecution at the trial didn't have a clue at any direction they were going.
12:53They were just jumping at ideas.
12:55So what they brought forward was it was stealing from the post office.
13:00When that wasn't working so well, it was Diane was having an affair.
13:04And when that wasn't working so well, something else would be thrown in.
13:09I don't think they had a direction or any idea.
13:12They were fumbling all the way through it.
13:17For somebody to be doing the job that they're doing,
13:20and there to be no physical evidence for him to have killed her.
13:25None whatsoever.
13:27It really is unbelievable.
13:29For me, I would have to have physical evidence to say someone had killed someone.
13:33I was involved in the investigation early on.
13:46And the investigation team had a set of images of the bedroom where Diana was found
13:54before any samples really have been taken, before exhibits have been removed.
13:59So I can see what it was like at the moment that that scene came under police control.
14:10The crime scene essentially was the bedroom above the post office itself.
14:17It was just a regular dwelling where there was a double bed, bedside tables and lamps.
14:23There were images that showed Diana on the bed, and she was positioned on her back on effectively the left-hand side of the bed.
14:39And it was clear that there was an enormous amount of blood staining that was present on the sheets and on the bedding.
14:45Further on at the trial, we've learnt more of the detail, you know, that she'd been hit on the head from behind.
15:06And, you know, more than likely that she was asleep at the time.
15:13A post-mortem later confirmed three distinct head injuries.
15:18Blows delivered by a blunt object, likely a metal rod.
15:23That was so distressing.
15:26So distressing.
15:27And I kept thinking, why three?
15:30You know, why have you done it three times? That's just evil.
15:35A reconstruction was carried out with the head of a mannequin to test the sequence of events.
15:41The pathologist drew on this head the injuries that Diana had sustained.
15:54And then that allowed us then to sort of use this as a three-dimensional prop that we could then realign it with the pillow
16:03to try and understand how the blood staining might have developed from the injuries.
16:07If her head's in the pillow facing to her left, then she's probably asleep when the first blow is delivered
16:18and then turned to face her right, which is very likely where the assailant was stood.
16:25And where there are two additional blows in one order or the other.
16:29They often say that the victim is the last eyewitness and probably she turned to see her assailant.
16:43The women in the family are the strong characters.
16:48You know, whoever did it, you know, put Robin as one of the options.
16:53But if it wasn't Robin, somebody else put an end to her life in a brutal, cowardly way.
17:02And, you know, if you're a fighter, you don't expect that to happen, do you?
17:07I was really worried about my dad, knowing that he'd be exposed to the level of detail of the crime
17:21and how close he was to Diana, knowing that he'd have to sit and listen to, you know,
17:29horrendous details about her death.
17:33He hadn't gone into court gunning for Robin, being guilty.
17:41He didn't see it like that at all.
17:45He just wanted to establish as many facts as possible and wanted to make sense of it.
17:52The pillow is kind of like the cover of the book.
18:06You know, it's like the picture and you think, I wonder what the detail is within it.
18:11There was a kind of brown smear and it was this kind of transfer of material that went across the pillow.
18:23It wasn't blood, but it was brown, so it looked like perhaps a rust-like type material.
18:30Just to put this in context, Doctor, there is evidence of DNA on the pillow
18:34and the DNA does not match Mr. Garbut.
18:39Yes.
18:42And the reality is that this could be DNA from a murderer.
18:47Potentially, yes.
18:49They said that it had DNA on it, but nothing of Robin.
18:54But unknown male DNA?
18:55Yeah, and dies.
18:57And die on us.
18:59Just the fact that there being unknown male DNA suggests straight away that there is other people involved in this.
19:05Otherwise, why would unknown male DNA be on the pillow?
19:22The alleged murder weapon, the iron bar, was found two days later,
19:26about 20 yards away from the house on top of an eight foot, ten foot high stone wall.
19:39It was proven that one end of the murder weapon was Dinah's DNA.
19:44She'd been struck by it.
19:46And on the other end of the murder weapon was the DNA of a policeman.
19:51No DNA of Robin whatsoever on the murder weapon.
19:57I'm in North Yorkshire Police.
20:01I'm currently based at York.
20:03On March 25th, there was a search for linear objects at Nelson Bay.
20:08The whole of my team was deployed.
20:13How did your DNA get in areas B and C?
20:18I can't recall if I touched it.
20:21DNA can be transferred airborne.
20:22I may have touched it.
20:25I did not pick it up.
20:27It's such an important thing that his DNA is on that murder weapon at the opposite end of Dinah's DNA.
20:36In your second interview, you were asked several times about your whereabouts on the 23rd.
20:44There's a number of things I could have been doing.
20:48It's six months down the line.
20:50I checked the telephone, bank statements and my mobile phone.
20:54I can't find out.
20:56Clearly, there were flaws in that original investigation.
21:01There's no two ways about it, you know, to have a potential murder weapon.
21:05And for the DNA to be contaminated in that way, that's, from a prosecution perspective, really difficult.
21:10Everyone in court was thinking there is a great element of doubt there and he may be innocent.
21:18Mr Garbert, when do you think Diana died on that morning?
21:33I don't know. I have been going through this in my head.
21:36I think it happened between 4.30am and half past eight.
21:40And you heard nothing of anyone moving upstairs?
21:43No.
21:45A big plea was made of the fact that there was a struggle upstairs.
21:47His wife was murdered and he was completely unaware of it.
21:50She would have put up a fight, wouldn't she?
21:53I would have thought so, knowing Di, yes.
21:56But you heard nothing whatsoever? No struggle or fight or scream?
22:01I did not hear anything.
22:03So it appears that your wife has been killed without any apparent struggle.
22:08I don't agree with that.
22:10There was a clump of hair by her head, which suggests a struggle.
22:15There was a big projector and a slide put up.
22:18And it showed a clump of hair on the bed near the pillow.
22:25It was a shock.
22:27Because my first thought in my head is that Di must have kicked into her army, one and fought.
22:38And that what she's done is pulled the clump of hair out of that person.
22:41It wasn't the colour of Robin's hair, it wasn't the colour of Diana's hair.
22:47It was a different colour hair.
22:52Obviously, they could have tested the route, got the DNA.
22:55If it was on the database, they could have told you who it was.
22:58However, North Yorkshire Police happened to lose the clump of hair.
23:06Well, they asked where it was, didn't they?
23:07Yeah.
23:08They show it on the track, they show it on the projector, didn't they?
23:10And then they said, could you produce that?
23:12And they said, no, we can't because...
23:13We don't know where it is.
23:14We don't know where it is, we've lost it.
23:15The head being lost as an exhibit is extraordinary, really.
23:23It's just like one thing after another, after another.
23:28It just beggars belief.
23:31I'm not a police officer, I'm not a detective,
23:34but clearly something's not being done properly.
23:39I think they thought, right, Robin's done it,
23:41and therefore we're going to concentrate on just the evidence to fit that
23:46and not look further afield.
23:48I think the more in the court these things came up,
23:52the more you thought, well, something's going wrong here.
23:55Something's happening here that isn't coming out right
23:58because this all can't be happening.
24:01The errors that were made in terms of the handling of the murder weapon
24:05and also with a clump of hair, it being lost.
24:07That leaves that doubt, doesn't it, to a certain degree.
24:14But I would suggest that it is pretty much eradicated
24:17by all the rest of the evidence against him, really.
24:27On the night before the murder,
24:30Mr Garbert had gone to Backley's and other stores
24:33before picking up fish and chips.
24:37He returned home between 8 and 8.30pm.
24:42I took the fish and chips into the house.
24:45Dad portioned it up.
24:47I was asleep by 9.30.
24:52For the prosecution, when she had her final meal and when she died,
24:55time of death was absolutely crucial.
24:57Dr Jennifer Miller examined the contents of the deceased stomach
25:01after the post-mortem.
25:03How do you make the assessment?
25:05Digestion can cease on death or on onset of severe trauma.
25:09She had fish and chips, apparently, that had been digested.
25:13And you can tell a time of death from the contents of somebody's stomach
25:16because it stops being digested, obviously, when someone dies, effectively.
25:20The timescale is most likely six to eight hours after consumption.
25:24Six and eight hours later?
25:27So, taking the latest of those two times, 8.30,
25:31would mean that the digestive process most likely ceased
25:35between 2.30 and 4.30 in the morning?
25:38Most likely, yes.
25:39They had an expert witness who said that they've examined the stomach contents
25:46and she died in line with the prosecution case.
25:51She was so powerful in the dark, everybody thought,
25:55oh, my God, that was quite bad evidence against Robin.
25:59The really key evidence against him was about the fact that the pathologist
26:03had said that she died in the early hours of the morning.
26:05So, his account of her being murdered just before the robber came down
26:10and took the money from the safe and then left the premises,
26:13that kind of started to fall apart, really.
26:25In my experience, the way Postman's alarms would work
26:28is that they're time-lock safes.
26:30That morning, the unlocking process commenced at exactly 8.31 and 54 seconds a.m.
26:43You're getting a beep, beep, beep, beep, beep sound for about four minutes.
26:48And then when it went silent, the locks had been undone.
26:51The jury was told in court that there was only two minutes between safe opening
27:02and him making the 999 call. In fact, it was less than two minutes.
27:05Ambulance, what's the address of the emergency?
27:08It's the call shop, 2 East Road, Nelson Bay.
27:10The robbery had to have taken place between 8.35.54 and 8.37 and 13 seconds.
27:20So, if you take his version of events at face value,
27:25robber has to get in, get the money out, make the threats to him,
27:28and then he's got away in less than two minutes.
27:32I opened the safe door, pulled the stamp tray out and put the tray on top of the safe.
27:39Then I heard a noise. I thought it was Di.
27:43The guy was stood by the side door and he had a bag with him.
27:47He went to the shop till and took some money from the tray?
27:51Yes, and then he left.
27:52And by his account, it all took place in a very, very busy time,
27:57not only for the shop but in the village.
27:58You know, people are waking up, people are walking dogs or whatever it is.
28:02No one has seen the person come out who's committed that murder.
28:07I was hanging washing up at about 8.39 in the morning.
28:11I can see the post office rear door from there.
28:14The door to the post office was closed.
28:16I saw no one or heard no one from the direction of the post office.
28:22I saw no one crossing the yard.
28:28Presumably having gone upstairs, you went into the bedroom to see your wife
28:32and assess the situation before telephoning the police.
28:36I can't remember because of this situation. I can't remember at all.
28:40Anybody listening to that evidence would think,
28:42why didn't you go across and check her?
28:43Why didn't you find out if she was dead?
28:46Why didn't you make an effort to resuscitate?
28:49There was no need to go in because you knew that you had bludgeoned her to death.
28:53That is all wrong.
28:55I dialled 999.
28:57I would never hurt die.
28:58I don't know.
29:12The phone's not on his phone.
29:14For the close of the trial, North Yorkshire police released the details of the 999 call.
29:19the 999 call and that was actually released in its full it's in its entirety the recording
29:28and that steers with you that was a very for me anyway that was my abiding memory of that trial
29:36the 999 call made at precisely 8 37 on the morning of the 23rd of march last year from
29:42belsonby post office was the first the outside world view of the tragedy that had befallen
29:47postmistress diana garbett a distraught robin garbett is heard pleading with operators
29:54for help to save his dying wife are you with your wife now how old is she
30:09right so is she conscious she's funny she's got a funny color and she's she's not responding to
30:16anything okay is she breathing i don't think so no apart from calling 999 did you do anything to
30:26help mrs garbett did you give her resuscitation she was lying on her front i tried to turn her over
30:34i did try to help her what i want you to do is i want you to check her breathing how do i do that
30:41she said she's late she's late she's late on the belly with her head right in the pillow right
30:47right right certainly her flat on her back on the ground she's in bed she's in bed
30:54she's in bed i can't move her right sir we need to try okay we're going to try and help her we had to
31:01sit and listen to him and honestly he just his voice and it it was just awful to hear awful
31:14you're doing really well sir just trying to pull her on her back did you manage to get her on her back
31:19is there anybody nearby a neighbor that you can go and get to help you paramedics found themselves
31:41dealing with a frantic robin garbutt over the telephone they asked him was there anyone nearby
31:46that he could call upon to help and the woman he turned to was close friend and neighbor pauline die
31:55hello hello right we need to get have you got somebody there to help you i understand i'm going
32:02to tell you exactly what to do okay but between the two of you you need to get your wife on her back
32:16it provided dramatic and emotional evidence today robin garbutt breaking down in the dock as his 999
32:25call was played out to the court throughout that call you could hear that mr garbutt was crying
32:30and in clear distress they told him to try various things i can't you know he physically couldn't do it
32:47so he went and got a neighbor the neighbor came around and sister robin was rolling die over and
32:52checking her you turned her over and saw what you had done to her in the daylight he was then asked if he
32:59would check if his wife was still breathing and he was heard saying to the late mrs garbutt oh die
33:05you're warm back then the paramedics were there and they confirmed that sadly she was dead
33:12the paramedic team then arrived on the scene and because mr garbutt hadn't hung up the phone
33:16his conversation with them was also recorded i've only i've only just uh i've only just uh
33:23coaxed that uh part ten minutes sit upon three five minutes would you like that to remove this
33:31she's what you want she's all right tell me tell me tell me tell me
33:38forensic analysis was essentially that she died an awful lot earlier in the night and the paramedic
33:53was saying there was a bit of a discussion and i know it sounds odd where robin was saying is she
33:59still warm or words to that effect and he was saying no she's been dead for some time and he was he was
34:04kind of contradicting that even at that stage because he would have been aware the prosecution
34:08contended that that was going to contradict his alibi
34:11he was captured saying to a member of the ambulance team of his wife she's warm the paramedic then
34:34told him but if you look sir that's what we call rigor mortis mr garbutt says to him it's not rigor
34:40mortis the paramedic replies it is i'm afraid and she's been down for some time paramedic said she
34:47was blue she was subject to rigor mortis i cannot remember what the paramedic said i held her hand
34:56you knew her arm was stiff her fingers moved her legs moved when i tried to turn her over i was
35:03mindful of that he really was eviscerated in the dock in terms of his account and i think he was
35:10trying in my opinion he was trying to justify an awful lot of things and particularly in regard to
35:15the time scale and the time frame that were just ludicrous really
35:18at what time in the morning did you kill her mr garbutt i would never hurt die i love my wife
35:31she didn't love you though did she mr garbutt she didn't love you i think you're very wrong i think
35:40she loved me back
35:55i had one uncomfortable feeling that i haven't mentioned which was during the court break
36:01i walked over to the door of the court just to have peeped through the window to see you know is
36:09there any action is there anybody coming back in through the other way and i just looked at that
36:14through that window and in the reflection of that glass robin was looking at me
36:21and that was the first time that i felt you know uncomfortable by him
36:34and then you know of all the evidence that i'd heard none of that had made me think that he was
36:40guilty but he was guilty of that act of you know i can look at your back but i can't look at your face
36:51i can't look at your back but i can't look at your back but i can't look at your back and look at your back
37:01ladies and gentlemen i have left until last possibly the most important witness
37:06brian hurt not a friend or best mate of mr garbutt just somebody who used the shop
37:14around 6 45 i went to the paper shop
37:17mr garbutt mr garbutt was serving we passed the time of day
37:23as i turned to go i heard a woman's voice she said one word robin he said
37:30yes die i'm 90 percent sure it was die or it was dear
37:48he was clear that at about 6 45 he heard a voice saying robin he said it sounded like a woman's voice
37:56and he said either yes die or yes dear
38:03the importance of that evidence cannot be overstated you just have to look at the till roll to see
38:11if this is quarter to seven customers are coming thick and fast mr garbutt cannot possibly have run
38:18upstairs hit diana with an iron bar run out and pop the bar on the wall
38:24there is no possible opportunity
38:28there's no doubt whatsoever that would back up mr garbutt's version of events
38:33and what's really quite difficult in the in the legal system is reasonable doubt i've been in court
38:39cases before where you get people who who genuinely you know jurors who ask for the judge to explain
38:43what reasonable is and and it's really hard to define you know
38:52the jury in the case of a man accused of killing his postmistress wife has retired to consider its
38:57verdict robin garbutt denies the murder of his wife diana at their post office at melsonby in north
39:02yorkshire last year much of this boils down to one key issue for the jury to decide that is when exactly
39:10did diana garbutt die now why is that that atmosphere in the court when you're waiting for a
39:16verdict is like something you've never experienced before it goes quiet and then it goes quieter than
39:26quiet if a minute's silence can feel like a long time this feels like forever
39:38i'd sat there and listen to it all if i was a tutor i would have been one of the ones that said i don't
39:43know because i don't think you're there to say he didn't do it you're there to say i'm sure he did
39:51and unless you can he's not guilty
40:01foreman do you the jury find the defendant robin joseph garbutt guilty or not guilty on the charge of
40:08this indictment for murder we the jury find the defendant robin garbutt guilty
40:21his face was just like ashen it was just a real funny color
40:42he didn't really look at me or anybody he wasn't looking at anyone he was just sort of looking down
40:48and i just wanted to be able to get to him because i knew that he would need us and we couldn't do that
40:55for him
40:58i find it to be proved that the defendant was stealing cash from the post office safe
41:05i do not doubt that in some way his fear of exposure led to the murder
41:10i order that the defendant serves a minimum term of 20 years before he is considered for release by the parole board
41:21to see him there go down those stairs that was just the worst thing in my life that i think i'll have ever
41:36had to see because i knew he hadn't done anything wrong then our whole world was gone wasn't it our family
41:45and all that we fought for and justice had all gone yeah yeah
41:52i can remember sally screaming out oh no and it was just horrendous
42:04it was like how have you come to this decision what have you based this decision on
42:10because it isn't evidence
42:30we had a meeting with council after robin's conviction i banged my hand down on the desk
42:34and stood up and said you've managed to get the most innocent man in this country found guilty
42:41on one of the worst crimes you can possibly commit and mr hill turned out he said this isn't the end
42:51he said because we asked for information from the post office based on information provided by the
42:59horizon system but the post office said that that information wasn't available when it actually was
43:10i joined the post office in 1978 and then in 1988 my wife and i bought our own post office and
43:18we ran that branch for 38 years and all throughout that time i played a role helping and representing
43:26sub post masters when they got into disputes with the post office i've never trusted horizon
43:37and when they finally got the records i looked at the statements from the post's officials and
43:42immediately i said well hang on a minute the jury haven't been given all the facts here
43:46and in my opinion there's another side to this story
44:05so
44:16so
44:28you
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