- 3 hours ago
Murder at the Post Office - Season 1 Episode 3 -
Another Side To The Story
Another Side To The Story
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00:00I'll tell you a little story I don't know whether you'll want to include this but I'll tell you a
00:08little story so only three weeks ago I was in the pub and somebody who hasn't lived in the village
00:15that long was leaving and somebody said to him oh are you going he says oh I'm just gonna take
00:22the wife home I'm just gonna walk her home she wants to go kind of thing he says he's gotta be
00:26careful you know you can get murdered in this village and they kept joking about it these two
00:32people and I just looked around and I went enough and he went what what I'm only saying the facts
00:39and I went enough and he apologized and he said I'm so sorry I said she was one of my best friends you
00:50know it didn't leave our our lives it was all consuming that was all anybody was talking about
01:00it's such a central part to the village isn't it wherever you come from that's where you end up
01:07you know there was as I find here a substantial degree of pre-meditation
01:19having armed himself with the bar the defendant must have waited until Diana Garbutt was asleep
01:26and in the early hours of the morning crept silently into her bedroom
01:31he struck her head three savage blows with the bar smashing her skull and causing her immediate death
01:40as he plainly intended
01:42he told the same ludicrous story from beginning to end
01:47by their verdict the jury have exposed this to be pure humbug
01:53this was a brutal planned and cold-blooded murder of his wife she lay fast asleep in her own bed
02:03it was just how how have you come to this decision what have you based this decision on
02:12because it isn't evidence
02:14I order that the defendant serves a minimum term of 20 years before he is considered for release by the parole board
02:24the jury were told to be sure that he was guilty and I wasn't sure
02:30guilty Robin Garbutt is sent to prison for a minimum of 20 years for murdering his postmistress wife
02:38he never stopped did he no he was going to prove that there was somebody out there that done this to die
02:46lawyers for a former sub postmaster from North Yorkshire are seeking a fresh appeal
02:50after arguing that the inquiry into the post office IT scandal shed new light on his case
02:55in my opinion there's another side to this story
02:59I looked at the statements from the post officials and immediately I said
03:03well hang on a minute the jury haven't been given all the facts here
03:06this case may be the most egregious miscarriage of justice stemming from the post office scandal
03:36from my memory the verdict came in the afternoon
03:46by the time we left the court probably later than it normally would have been I was exhausted
03:55and then I started heading for home and never felt so far away from home
04:04it just makes you realize that you know you're lucky that you can go
04:10didn't feel as if there's closure now which is what you'd hope for or you might expect
04:26you do hear families talking about justice what does justice taste like
04:34I don't know
04:37I want to know what happened you know I don't think we have heard what happened we haven't heard the truth
04:49I don't think we have heard the truth
04:54I don't think we have heard the truth
04:54I don't think we have heard the truth
04:56I feel lost
04:5720 years
04:59how could they have ignored my evidence
05:01no DNA on murder weapon relating to me
05:05unknown DNA on pillow
05:10clump of light brown hair on pillow photographed
05:14then lost by police
05:16no evidence connecting me with the murder
05:20we would have conversations with Robin when we went into prison
05:27and he would also write
05:29so you know Robin could give us an idea of you know what he thought we could help with
05:35he's an optimistic person but I'm sure underneath Robin felt let down by the system
05:42does it surprise me that he's still protesting his innocence
05:47it doesn't really
05:49the only thing he can do is make a judgment on what's known and what's in the public domain really
05:54if there's something completely extraordinary which hasn't emerged
05:59which proves him to be innocent
06:01then you know that of course would explain his stance
06:06and it would be a most horrendous miscarriage of justice if that were the case
06:10my PhD was on miscarriages of justice
06:17and then I started to write specifically about prisoners maintaining innocence
06:21and then I just was inundated with requests from people who were saying
06:27you're writing about me please can you help me
06:30you know how does the appeal system actually help the innocent who are caught up in this
06:35because our system actually doesn't care if you're innocent or guilty
06:38it's about process
06:40the work I do now for 12 years I set up the innocence projects in Britain
06:45trying to overturn these wrongful convictions when they happen
06:48but I heard about Robin's case through a friend of Robin's
06:51and that's how I started to look into it
06:54and as things stand
06:57there is no credible forensic evidence that suggests that Robin murdered Diana
07:01it's just circumstantial evidence
07:05so I haven't seen anything that says he did it
07:09but I don't know
07:10but I'd like to know
07:12it's now more than two years since Diana Garbutt's body was found in the bedroom of the post office
07:22they ran together in Melsenby in North Yorkshire
07:25he's always maintained his innocence claiming his wife was murdered by a masked intruder
07:30at trial
07:31the prosecution didn't believe the robbery took place
07:34they said that Robin was stealing money
07:36it all blew up in the middle of the night
07:38he killed her for it
07:40it wasn't just that he found out she'd been sleeping with somebody
07:43or she'd been kissing someone
07:44it was also to do with finances
07:47I joined the post office in 1978
07:53and then in 1988
07:55my wife and I bought our own post office
07:58and we ran that branch for 38 years
08:01and all throughout that time
08:03I played a role
08:05helping and representing some postmasters
08:08when they got into disputes with the post office
08:10at trial
08:12experts from the post office
08:14working with the police and the prosecution
08:16they said
08:17that he was stealing money
08:19which undermined his version
08:22that we were robbed
08:23and that money was stolen
08:25in 2011
08:29the jury would have had complete faith and trust in the post office
08:33it was a British institution
08:35so when an official from that organisation
08:38turns out and gives evidence under oath
08:41you listen
08:42and you tend not to disbelieve what you're being told
08:45the prosecution in Robin Garbutt's trial
08:48claimed data from the Horizon system
08:50showed he was stealing from the couple's post office
08:52in Melsomby in North Yorkshire
08:54and killed Diana to cover it up
08:56everyone likes to know
08:59there's a motive that they can understand
09:00and the potential of a motive
09:03through the misuse of cash
09:05seems to have been quite
09:07impacting on the jury
09:09at the end of the day
09:12each branch
09:13entered into the Horizon system
09:15a cash declaration
09:16and that assisted then
09:18this algorithm
09:19to look back
09:20at the ins and the outs
09:22of customer transactions
09:23to see
09:24what cash you held in branch
09:26if they thought
09:28you had too much cash on the premises
09:29you'd get an automated request
09:31from Horizon
09:32telling you
09:33how much money
09:34it thinks you should send back
09:36but a lot of postmasters simply ignored that
09:40because it was wrong
09:41and it was quite common behaviour
09:45for a postmaster to do that
09:47Robin knew how his post office ran
09:50and he actually stated
09:52that if you get the graph
09:54of our previous years
09:55overnight cash holdings
09:57and follow the graphs of rise
09:58and peaks and falls
10:00it'll follow
10:02what I'm declaring
10:03in my post office
10:04but the post office at trial
10:07said
10:07oh
10:08not available
10:09that information
10:09haven't we found out
10:12after trial
10:12it was available
10:13when they finally got
10:16the records
10:17I looked at the statements
10:18from the postal's officials
10:19and I could see no evidence
10:21of any fraud taking place
10:23that's
10:23would go into benefit
10:25Mr Garbert
10:25it showed that actually
10:28this is
10:28consistent with the way
10:30that branch
10:30conducted
10:31the cash management
10:32it wasn't until after trial
10:38we'd looked into it more
10:40after trial
10:41and we'd got
10:41a previous seven years
10:42overnight cash holdings
10:43that proved
10:44the records were correct
10:46that enabled us then
10:47to go forward to the appeal call
10:49today
10:59Robin Garbert's legal team
11:01came back to court
11:02to claim fresh evidence
11:03could clear his name
11:05post office accounting records
11:08which they argued
11:09supported his side
11:10of the story
11:11when it comes to an appeal
11:15the court of appeal
11:16only receives cases
11:17if there's fresh evidence
11:19or there's an exceptional reason
11:21why the evidence
11:23that was available
11:23wasn't used
11:24that evidence
11:26judges said here today
11:28should have been made available
11:29to Robin Garbert
11:30during his trial
11:31but for jurors
11:33to acquit him
11:34they said
11:34they would have to believe
11:35that his wife
11:36was killed instantly
11:37that she raised no alarm
11:39and that Garbert
11:40who was downstairs
11:41at the time
11:42heard nothing at all
11:43that they said
11:47was highly improbable
11:4824th of May
11:54knockback day
11:55we are stuck
11:57with circumstantial evidence
11:59I feel so bad
12:01I have let die down again
12:03those killers
12:04are still out there
12:05there is always hope
12:08but how strong I am
12:09will be the test
12:10and time will tell
12:12the reason
12:15the appeal
12:16failed
12:16is that
12:17regardless of what
12:19happened with Horizon
12:19regardless of what
12:20his financial situation was
12:22his version of events
12:23of a robber coming in
12:24and killing her
12:24it just wasn't plausible
12:25not a single witness
12:28was found
12:29who corroborated
12:30this notion
12:31of a robber
12:31getting in
12:31and getting out
12:32without being seen
12:33it just
12:33it just didn't add up
12:34tonight's North Yorkshire police
12:37has said
12:37it hopes today's decision
12:39will mean Diana Garbutt's family
12:40can begin to rebuild
12:42their lives
12:42despite some in the village
12:45still supportive of the man
12:46convicted of her killing
12:48Robin Garbutt will tonight
12:50continue his 20 year jail sentence
12:52in court
13:05they said that
13:06nobody could have
13:07got in and out
13:08of the post office
13:09on that
13:10morning
13:11what people
13:13didn't realise
13:14is
13:15you can access
13:16through
13:16the back of the garages
13:17it's a small little snicket
13:22down some steps
13:23and if Robin was bringing in
13:26the stock
13:27he would have had
13:28the back door
13:29wedged open
13:30and the door
13:33into the shop
13:34would have been open
13:36so if Robin's gone in
13:41through the shop
13:43and into the little stock room
13:45there
13:45quite easy for somebody
13:47to come down them steps
13:48who's been waiting
13:49in the back of the garages
13:51the staircase is immediately
13:55through that door
13:56and upstairs
13:56somebody could have got in there
14:00and gone upstairs
14:01easy access
14:02so they've got in
14:07unbeknown to him
14:08got upstairs
14:09murdered her
14:10why
14:10why would you murder her
14:11what's a kind of benefit
14:13from the robber's perspective
14:14there
14:14why is the robber doing it
14:15why would you murder
14:16the postmaster's wife
14:17before you get access
14:18to the safe
14:19so rather than being a robber
14:20you're a murderer
14:21hey listen
14:22I'm not saying
14:23there's a logic
14:23to what robbers do
14:24but
14:24I can't
14:26I'm kind of struggling
14:27to see why you would do that
14:28in that context really
14:29it is
14:31unfortunately
14:32a common occurrence
14:34for
14:34robberies to take place
14:36through quite
14:38sophisticated means
14:39sometimes
14:39I have heard
14:41of branches
14:41being broken into
14:43where perpetrators
14:44have waited for
14:45the family to
14:46come down in the morning
14:48and then they pounce on them
14:49make them open the safe
14:51and get out
14:52before the public are let in
14:53I've heard of that
14:54on many occasions
14:55invariably
14:57there was evidence
14:59of planning
15:00and the ones
15:01that would hide
15:02in the building
15:02if they could
15:03they were the ones
15:05in my opinion
15:06that would have taken
15:07the trouble
15:07to plan their attack
15:09the way
15:11postman's alarms
15:12would work
15:12is that
15:13they're time-lock safes
15:14didn't take
15:16Sherlock Holmes
15:17to work out
15:18that I've got to wait
15:19until the time-lock's released
15:20otherwise I'm going to
15:21set all the alarms off
15:22and as soon as it stopped
15:25they'd know
15:26that they can open the safe
15:27and that's the moment
15:28a bandit would choose
15:29to appear
15:31and carry out the robbery
15:32after the appeal
15:40and lost the appeal
15:42the work started
15:43with robin
15:44in prison
15:45you know
15:47letters going backwards
15:48and forwards
15:48asking for
15:49you know
15:49wanting stuff
15:50and looking at stuff
15:50and the work
15:51was absolutely
15:52relentless
15:53trying to
15:57you know
15:57put things together
15:58find things out
15:59as best we could
16:00he plugged away
16:02and sort of helped
16:03in the best he could
16:04and he'd do all the work
16:06from his cell realistically
16:08the work he did
16:10didn't he
16:11he just didn't give in
16:13I copied and copied
16:14and copied
16:15and copied
16:15didn't I
16:16stood for hours copying
16:17and sending to him
16:18so he could look at it
16:19and then he could write
16:20to his people
16:21couldn't he
16:22he wrote to specialists
16:23he never stopped
16:24did he
16:25no
16:25he was going to prove
16:27that there was somebody
16:28out there that had done
16:29this to die
16:31and if he could prove
16:32he hadn't done it
16:33then that person
16:34would be found
16:35I've struggled with Robin
16:53getting attention
16:54he's always maintained
16:57his innocence
16:58of course I understand
17:02if he is innocent
17:03then it's terrible
17:04if he's wrongly convicted
17:06of a crime
17:07he didn't do
17:08and he's serving
17:09a lengthy time
17:10in prison
17:11but at the same time
17:16it's about getting the truth
17:19about what happened
17:20to Diana
17:20that's the
17:21most important thing
17:23is Diana
17:24she was a real person
17:30and she was special
17:32I just think
17:39there can be too much
17:40attention and limelight
17:43given to
17:43the wrong thing
17:45the only body
18:00that can refer your case
18:01back to the Court of Appeal
18:02is the CCRC
18:04the Criminal Case
18:05Review Commission
18:06and the thing
18:08about the CCRC
18:09is it can only
18:12refer a case
18:12back to the Court of Appeal
18:14if there's fresh evidence
18:15that wasn't available
18:17at the time
18:17of the original trial
18:18and so it goes
18:19what is fresh
18:21what is new
18:22since you were convicted
18:23I got involved
18:29in the Diana Garber
18:31murder case
18:32at the request
18:33of solicitors
18:34acting for the defendant
18:36at the original trial
18:40the really key evidence
18:42against him
18:42was about the fact
18:43that the pathologist
18:44had said
18:44that she died
18:45in the early hours
18:46of the morning
18:46it was kind of
18:48between 2.30
18:49and 4.30
18:50was said to the jury
18:50and obviously
18:51they were saying
18:52that they had evidence
18:53which suggested
18:54that that wasn't
18:55quite as clear cut
18:56that it could have been
18:57later
18:57which would have
18:58you know
18:58tallied with his version
18:59of events
19:00of a robber
19:00coming in
19:01and killing her
19:01sort of thing
19:02in terms of
19:04estimation
19:04of the time of death
19:05I think all the
19:06pathologists involved
19:07almost all agreed
19:09on nearly everything
19:10so we know
19:11when she was
19:12last seen alive
19:13and we know
19:13when she was found
19:14so that's the first thing
19:16and then we then
19:17start to look at
19:18the Rigel Mortis
19:19does that really assist?
19:22Not really
19:22the hypostasis
19:24the settling of blood
19:25that doesn't really assist
19:27the body temperature
19:28was measured
19:29but even that
19:30is variable
19:31and when you actually
19:31look at the sort of
19:32plots and the graphs
19:34it doesn't really
19:35take us any further
19:36than the two parameters
19:38when she was last seen
19:40and when she was found dead
19:41so then we come
19:43into the stomach contents
19:44which is the one
19:45area where
19:46I thought there was
19:47problems
19:48this is the
19:52statement from
19:54Jennifer Miller this
19:54time of death
19:57ladies and gentlemen
19:58Dr Miller
20:00a botanist
20:01who also specializes
20:03in digestion
20:03as far as the time
20:05of death goes
20:05when it came to trial
20:06the food science lady
20:08said that the digestion
20:09rate of the food
20:09showed that Dinah died
20:11in the early hours
20:11of the morning
20:12because of the
20:12remaining undigested
20:14food in her stomach
20:15she concluded
20:18that the most likely
20:19time of death
20:20was within the window
20:21of 2.30
20:22until 4.30 a.m
20:23during the trial
20:25I believe the time
20:26frames were said
20:27to be between
20:28half past two
20:29and half past four
20:30which really
20:32shouldn't be that
20:33specific
20:33because you don't
20:35know the variability
20:36in the meal size
20:38that started off
20:39precisely when she
20:40ate that meal
20:41did she eat all
20:42of the meal
20:43I mean there's just
20:43so many variables
20:44that to be so
20:46specific
20:47just didn't stand up
20:48when an expert
20:50gives a time slot
20:52of death
20:53it does make for
20:54powerful evidence
20:55especially when the
20:56jurors are used
20:58to films
20:59and television
21:00where the pathologist
21:02comes along and says
21:02the time of death
21:03was ten past eight
21:04these days
21:05on a much more
21:06sort of scientific
21:07basis that pathology
21:09works on
21:09we don't do that
21:10at all
21:11having reviewed all
21:13of the material
21:14I just felt that
21:15the timing of death
21:17wasn't as specific
21:19as was suggested
21:20and then in fact
21:21we had a much
21:22broader time frame
21:23over which to operate
21:25including timings
21:27that would fit in
21:28with the account
21:29provided by the
21:30defendant
21:30so the time of death
21:43has been discredited
21:44as far as we're
21:45concerned
21:46it was submitted
21:48to the CCRC
21:49that this was
21:50problematic
21:51to say the very
21:52very least
21:52it was unreliable
21:54and the CCRC
21:56dismissed it
21:57how can there be
22:15the evidence
22:16that there is
22:17the people
22:18that have
22:19given statements
22:20have spoken
22:21you know
22:22the professionals
22:22how can they
22:24disregard it
22:24it does not
22:25make sense
22:26I can't make
22:27sense of it
22:28I'd been a private
22:41investigator for
22:41about two years
22:42and then
22:44out of the blue
22:44I received a
22:45telephone call
22:46from the defense
22:48of Robin Garber
22:50and
22:53I was instructed
22:54to look at
22:56the evidence
22:57about the
22:58murder weapon
22:59at the trial
23:04it was alleged
23:06that Robin Garber
23:07in the early
23:08hours of the
23:09morning
23:09following the
23:09murder
23:10had crept
23:11across the road
23:12in the middle
23:12of the night
23:13and placed
23:15the metal bar
23:17on this position
23:18just here
23:19where the little
23:20marker is
23:21where the tag is
23:21as taken
23:22as taken
23:22from the
23:23scenes of crimes
23:24photographed
23:25so that is
23:26extremely specific
23:27as to where
23:28the bar was
23:29actually found
23:30three days later
23:30by police search
23:32teams
23:32the murder weapon
23:36had been found
23:37sitting on top
23:38of the wall
23:38hanging over
23:40the end of the
23:40wall by about
23:41four inches
23:42on either side
23:43and therefore
23:44clearly visible
23:45from the opposite
23:46side
23:46so the witness
23:48that we spoke
23:49to at the
23:50garage that
23:51used to be
23:51there
23:51he was very
23:53specific
23:53and he remembers
23:55standing on the
23:56morning of the
23:57murder
23:57just behind the
23:59wall
23:59on the garage
24:00side
24:01looking down
24:02on the emergency
24:03services
24:04and he clearly
24:06remembers
24:06that had there
24:08been a metal
24:10bar
24:10on the top
24:12of the wall
24:12he would have
24:13removed it
24:14because it would
24:15have been in
24:16danger of
24:17being knocked
24:17off and
24:18falling onto
24:19somebody's head
24:19a key part
24:25of the
24:25prosecution case
24:26was that
24:28Robin had
24:28murdered his
24:29wife and
24:29then put the
24:30bar on that
24:30wall
24:31but the
24:33photographs taken
24:34on the day
24:35that she was
24:35murdered
24:36appears to
24:37show it's
24:38not there
24:38but a couple
24:41of days later
24:42it appears
24:42on that wall
24:43Robin could
24:45not have put
24:45that there
24:46Robin was
24:49taken to the
24:49police station
24:50and then he
24:51went with his
24:51sister and
24:52his brother-in-law
24:53back to their
24:54home which is
24:55about 70 miles
24:56away
24:56and they were
24:57with him
24:58from then on
24:59from Robin
25:02leaving Melstonby
25:03even to this
25:04day
25:04obviously in prison
25:05but he's never
25:06stepped foot in
25:07Melstonby
25:07since then
25:08the next question
25:21is to do with
25:22the DNA which is
25:23on the rust
25:24that was found
25:25on Diana's pillow
25:26Diana's been hit
25:29over the head
25:31with an iron bar
25:33and murdered
25:33it was a rusty
25:35iron bar
25:35some of that
25:36rust has fallen
25:37onto the pillow
25:38just to put this
25:40in context
25:41doctor there is
25:42evidence of DNA
25:43on the pillow
25:43and the DNA
25:45does not match
25:46Mr. Garbut
25:47yes
25:48and the reality
25:52is that this
25:53could be DNA
25:53from a murderer
25:54potentially yes
25:57it's been tested
26:00for DNA
26:01this has been
26:02independently looked
26:03at by an expert
26:04on behalf of
26:05Robin Garbut
26:06and they can't
26:07exclude the police
26:08officer who wasn't
26:09on duty on that
26:10day and the police
26:12officers asked
26:13where were you
26:14on this day
26:15because you were
26:15off work that day
26:16and he says
26:18I can't remember
26:19but yet when he
26:25comes back to work
26:26he somehow
26:29manages to be
26:30one of the
26:31police officers
26:32who discovers
26:33the iron bar
26:33on the wall
26:35because we know
26:39that there was
26:39no DNA
26:40of Robin Garbut
26:42found on the
26:43metal bar
26:43it's
26:44another factor
26:46in this murder
26:48of Diana Garbut
26:49that really
26:50does not make sense
26:51the reason we're
26:53having this discussion
26:54now the reason
26:55there is doubt
26:55about this case
26:56is because of
26:57mistakes that were
26:58made early in the
26:58inquiry really
26:59and that's very
27:01difficult for his
27:02family but it's
27:02even more difficult
27:03for her family
27:04as we learn of the
27:12errors made
27:14the confusion around
27:16things
27:16questions around the
27:18DNA and the weapon
27:20that was used to kill
27:21Diana
27:21it made me feel really
27:24angry
27:25you know it's a disservice
27:27to Diana
27:28there's just so many
27:30there's just so many
27:31question marks around
27:32a lot of the evidence
27:34and I think there were
27:34a lot of errors made
27:36by the police
27:36which just made it
27:37really hard to say
27:39with confidence
27:40what happened and whether he
27:43was guilty
27:44because of all of the
27:49question marks around
27:51everything
27:52my dad and I are going to
27:54go and visit him in the
27:55near future
27:56to try and
27:57find something out
27:59or that might help make
28:01sense of things
28:02so my dad and I are
28:04going to go together
28:05as a support
28:07for one another
28:08really
28:09going to see him
28:12if I had to think of a
28:13question for him it would
28:14be
28:15you've done the three
28:16quarters of your
28:1720 year sentence
28:19why not put all your
28:21cards on the table
28:22and
28:22tell us what happened
28:24in Robin's case I have
28:30never known
28:31a case
28:32where you've got a
28:34murder weapon
28:34with DNA on it
28:36and it's not the guy
28:37who was sitting in
28:38prison for the murder
28:39but the CCRC
28:42rejected that as well
28:44it's just rejecting
29:02every single thing that's
29:03been submitted
29:04and whether it's time of
29:06death
29:06whether it's the murder
29:07weapon
29:07the CCRC is just like
29:09computer says no
29:11computer says no
29:12computer says no
29:13yes we could find that
29:14out we're not prepared to
29:15do it
29:15we don't think if we do
29:17that this
29:17it just shows its
29:19reluctance
29:20and its lack of
29:21commitment to trying to
29:23find out the truth
29:24I don't understand why it
29:27keeps getting knocked
29:28back
29:28I don't think the
29:30justice system is fair
29:31I don't know if he did
29:34it
29:34but
29:36I've not seen any
29:37evidence
29:38that indicates that
29:39Robin did it
29:40all the evidence that
29:41led to the conviction
29:41it's been discredited
29:43to my mind
29:45in general conversation
29:57in the village
29:58in the pub
29:59it's not spoken about
30:00it's spoken about
30:01in our close
30:02circle of friends
30:04but no further than that
30:06I suppose you know
30:11Nelsonby has become
30:13sort of synonymous with
30:15it hasn't it
30:15it's certainly what I
30:16think of when I hear
30:17the name of the village
30:18somebody once said to us
30:21he shouldn't know about
30:22what you're doing
30:23because it'll upset him
30:24he won't be able to
30:26carry on
30:26with life in prison
30:28so you separate it for him
30:30don't tell him all the
30:31details of what you're
30:32doing because he can't
30:33do it
30:34that hasn't been right
30:35he needs the people
30:37in Nelsonby
30:38he needs that
30:39commitment from everybody
30:41and they're just there
30:42for him
30:42and that keeps him
30:43so strong
30:44and everyone keeps
30:46him going
30:47but knowing about them
30:48and their lives
30:49keeps him with us
30:50in our world
30:52we can't
30:55stop fighting for him
30:57but as time goes on
30:59I do feel Di gets lost
31:01she'll only be remembered
31:04as the postmistress
31:05she won't be remembered
31:06as Di
31:07we've lost two friends
31:11we've lost Di
31:12who's obviously not
31:14with us anymore
31:14and then you've lost Robin
31:17who's sort of convicted
31:20of Di's murder
31:20so it's a loss all around
31:24to be fair
31:24the post office today issued
31:44an unreserved apology
31:45but for 14 years it prosecuted
31:48hundreds of sub post masters
31:49and sub post mistresses
31:51for stealing money
31:52accusing them of fraud
31:54on the basis of a computer system
31:56it knew was defective
31:57and was wrongly reporting
31:58cash shortfalls
31:59I've never trusted Horizon
32:03it was introduced
32:04into my branch
32:06about 2001
32:07it was shortly after
32:10its introduction
32:11I started to hear
32:12these complaints
32:13from members
32:14that things weren't going right
32:16with their accounts
32:17whereas before
32:18everything works
32:18swimmingly
32:20it was a slow build up
32:24of information
32:25from thereafter
32:26that Horizon was not working
32:28as it should do
32:29why Horizon seems to be
32:34significant for Robin
32:36is because
32:37we see
32:38the Horizon evidence
32:40as being
32:40one of the main
32:41if not the main
32:42piece of evidence
32:43because it's claimed
32:44to support the motive
32:45for why he murdered his wife
32:47and it discredits
32:49the reliabilities
32:50of the entries
32:51which were relied upon
32:53in the original trial
32:54and I've said
32:56this case
32:57may be
32:58the most egregious
32:59miscarriage of justice
33:00stemming from
33:01the post office scandal
33:03Highly emotional
33:09sense of relief
33:10was almost palpable
33:11when hundreds
33:12of post office
33:13branch managers
33:14wrongly convicted
33:15of embezzling money
33:16learned today
33:17they will be exonerated
33:18and compensated
33:20the public
33:25don't like
33:26their institutions
33:27that they hold dear
33:28to get involved
33:29in any form
33:30of controversy
33:31and for a controversy
33:32as vast
33:33as what
33:34the post office
33:35became embroiled in
33:36I think
33:36the loss of trust
33:38in the post office
33:39with the public
33:40in a word
33:40it's been devastating
33:41wife killer
33:54or a victim
33:55of post office
33:56lies
33:57perhaps
33:58Robin's
33:59seen all this
34:00and thought
34:00like
34:02it's all
34:03his Christmases
34:03have come at once
34:04the body
34:14which reviews
34:15potential
34:16miscarriages
34:16of justice
34:17is being asked
34:18to look again
34:18the case
34:19of a sub postmaster
34:20who's serving
34:20life in prison
34:21for murdering
34:22his wife
34:23God isn't back
34:24in a fourth
34:25attempt to have
34:26his conviction
34:26overturned
34:27evidence from
34:28the Horizon
34:28IT system
34:29helped convict him
34:30but now his lawyers
34:31say new evidence
34:33has emerged
34:33about the faulty
34:34computer system
34:35along with information
34:36from the post office
34:37inquiry
34:38friends have
34:39labelled it
34:40a final roll
34:40of the dice
34:41Diana's mother
34:44has accused
34:44Garbutt of
34:45jumping on the
34:46Horizon bandwagon
34:47but his supporters
34:49say he never
34:50had a fair trial
34:51and it's time
34:52for a wider
34:53look at his case
34:54various people
34:56have said
34:56that Robin's
34:57using this
34:58to jump on the
34:58bandwagon
34:59which is not
35:00the case
35:00at all
35:01this isn't
35:03a recent thing
35:03back in the
35:05trial
35:05our initial appeal
35:07was on the
35:08post office
35:08before any
35:09Horizon situations
35:11came to light
35:11anything like that
35:12this has just
35:15added weight
35:16and this has added
35:17power
35:18to what we've
35:19been fighting
35:20against all along
35:21even if one
35:23accepts that
35:23the Horizon scandal
35:24has impacted
35:25upon this case
35:26as it has done
35:27with so many
35:28other post offices
35:29across the country
35:29how does that
35:31directly contradict
35:33the version of
35:34events that was
35:34given in terms of
35:35the events
35:36of that night
35:37I've seen the
35:40appeal
35:40this fourth
35:41application
35:42I think there's
35:43definitely fresh
35:44evidence
35:45that the Horizon
35:46experts should not
35:47have been
35:48relied upon
35:49and if the jury
35:50heard what they
35:51would know now
35:51they might say
35:53that Robin's case
35:53was unsafe
35:54he wants the
35:56CCIC to send him
35:57back to the
35:57appeal court
35:58and he wants
35:59to prove
36:00that he wasn't
36:01he's not guilty
36:02of this
36:02and that's the
36:03only way he can
36:04do it
36:04and he wants
36:04to go back
36:05doesn't he
36:05he doesn't want
36:07the easy way out
36:08he doesn't want
36:08to just come out
36:09and walk out
36:10and come home
36:10he wants to do
36:11the court
36:12and prove
36:13that he has
36:14not done this
36:15he wants to
36:15retrial
36:15and that proves
36:18without any doubt
36:18we've not
36:21had closure
36:21and we still
36:23can't move
36:23on from
36:25what happened
36:26to Diana
36:26because
36:27it still doesn't
36:29make any sense
36:30you okay
36:31I sense probably
36:39that the
36:40Horizon
36:40evidence
36:42will not be
36:43sufficient to
36:44bring about
36:44another trail
36:44that's my sense
36:45of it
36:45but I could be
36:46wrong
36:46we want
36:58to know
36:59should we
36:59have sympathy
37:00for this man
37:00should we have
37:01empathy for him
37:02being trapped
37:02in prison
37:02or should we
37:03not care
37:04that this man
37:05has the audacity
37:06to say he didn't
37:07kill his wife
37:08and he's just
37:09trying it on
37:09because if people
37:13can do these
37:14kind of murders
37:15they can certainly
37:16tell lies to
37:17somebody like me
37:18it's about 15
37:20years since I
37:21spoke to Robin
37:22I think it was
37:23the day of my
37:2440th birthday
37:25it's been quite a
37:28while
37:28there are two
37:30possibilities aren't
37:31there one is that
37:32there is a terrible
37:33miscarriage of
37:33justice here
37:34I will contend the
37:35opposite actually
37:36I think that
37:36there's a failure
37:37on his behalf
37:37to just acknowledge
37:38what he's done
37:39really
37:39and that must
37:41be a subject
37:43of some kind
37:44of contention
37:45and controversy
37:45for the people
37:46who just want
37:47to draw a line
37:48under it
37:48I don't expect
37:50to come from
37:51here today
37:51being like
37:52totally convinced
37:53one way or the
37:54other
37:54but you know
37:55we spent a lot
37:57of time thinking
37:58well if Robin
37:58didn't do it
37:59what did happen
38:01and it's like
38:02it just drains
38:03your energy
38:04so you know
38:05getting to the
38:05bottom of it
38:06is the absolute
38:07task
38:08and Robin
38:09needs to know
38:09that we'll never
38:10give up
38:11there's no reward
38:23you know
38:25we can't bring
38:26Diana back
38:27but you know
38:31somebody's got
38:32to speak up
38:33and you know
38:34tell
38:36you know
38:38tell everybody
38:38that we missed
38:39Diana
38:40you have this
38:45thing don't you
38:46where people
38:46convince themselves
38:47that you know
38:48they haven't done
38:49it in order
38:50to somehow
38:51deal with it
38:52I think
38:53it's so hard
39:00to judge
39:00isn't it
39:00in these
39:01cases
39:01let's be honest
39:06there's only
39:07really a
39:07Robin Gorman
39:07knows isn't
39:08there
39:08what happened
39:09down that
39:09night
39:10did feel
39:14a bit
39:15like an
39:15audience
39:15with Robin
39:16he's
39:18got his
39:19story
39:20and it's
39:21not going
39:21to change
39:21he said
39:23well
39:24I'm doing
39:25the right
39:26thing
39:26maintaining
39:28his innocence
39:28it's like
39:29the right
39:30thing for
39:30Di
39:31you know
39:33sticking
39:34to the
39:34story
39:35stroke
39:35telling
39:36the truth
39:37I guess
39:38he almost
39:38has to
39:39do that
39:39like
39:40he was
39:40never
39:40gonna
39:41sort
39:41of
39:42you know
39:44confess
39:45to you
39:46he's not
39:46going to
39:46buckle
39:47anytime
39:48soon
39:48you know
39:49but
39:49he's
39:50not
39:51being able
39:51to persuade
39:52you
39:52that he's
39:52an innocent
39:53man
39:53no
39:54he's
39:54tried
39:54to
39:55he's
39:56definitely
39:56tried
39:57but I'm
39:59an underweiser
40:01yeah
40:04I'd say
40:04if he's
40:05done it
40:05that's one
40:06definite
40:07thing from
40:07today
40:08if he's
40:08done it
40:09he's not
40:10going to
40:10change
40:12his tune
40:13like
40:14he'll
40:14take
40:14to
40:15the
40:15grave
40:15there
40:19isn't
40:19any
40:19closure
40:20there
40:21can
40:21only
40:21be
40:21closure
40:22when
40:22somebody
40:22says
40:23I'm
40:23guilty
40:24or
40:25this is
40:27what
40:27happened
40:27if
40:29Robin's
40:29appeal
40:30goes
40:30well
40:30he's
40:32going to
40:32move
40:32on
40:33and
40:34we're
40:35not
40:35going to
40:36be
40:36any
40:36other
40:36way
40:36there
40:37Diana
40:47isn't
40:48able
40:48to
40:48say
40:49what
40:49happened
40:49and so
40:50you
40:51won't be
40:51evidence
40:52to speak
40:52on her
40:53behalf
40:54you know
40:55the police
40:56have got
40:56a job
40:57to do
40:57and when
40:58they don't
40:58do it
40:58properly
40:59like
40:59the
41:00outcome
41:01is devastating
41:02for the
41:02families
41:02left
41:03not knowing
41:04what
41:04truly
41:05happened
41:05and
41:09there
41:10isn't
41:10justice
41:11for
41:11Diana
41:35is
41:37a
41:38woman
41:39who
41:41is
41:43a
41:45woman
41:47who
41:48is
41:49a
41:51woman
41:53who
41:54is
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