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FunTranscript
00:00I'll tell you a little story I don't know whether you'll want to include this but I'll tell you a
00:08little story so only three weeks ago I was in the pub and somebody who hasn't lived in the
00:15village that long was leaving and somebody said to him oh are you going he says oh I'm just gonna
00:21take the wife home I'm just gonna walk her home she wants to go kind of thing he says he's got
00:25to be careful you know you get murdered in this village and they kept joking about it these two
00:32people and I just looked around and I went enough anyway what what I'm only saying the facts and I
00:40went enough and he apologized and he said I'm so sorry I said she was one of my best friends you
00:50know it didn't leave our our lives it was all consuming that was all anybody was talking about
01:00it's such a central part to the village isn't it wherever you come from that's where you end up
01:07you know there was as I find here a substantial degree of premeditation having armed himself with
01:22the bar the defendant must have waited until Diana Garbutt was asleep and in the early hours of the
01:29morning crept silently into her bedroom he struck her head three savage blows with the bar smashing
01:38her skull and causing her immediate death as he plainly intended he told the same ludicrous story
01:46from beginning to end by their verdict the jury have exposed this to be pure humbug this was a brutal
01:57planned and cold-blooded murder of his wife she lay fast asleep in her own bed it was just how
02:07how have you come to this decision what have you based this decision on because it isn't evidence
02:14I order that the defendant serves a minimum term of 20 years before he is considered for release by the
02:23parole board the jury were told to be sure that he was guilty and I wasn't sure guilty Robin Garbutt
02:33is sent to prison for a minimum of 20 years for murdering his postmistress wife he never stopped did
02:40he no he was going to prove that there was somebody out there that had done this to die lawyers for a
02:47former sub postmaster from North Yorkshire seeking a fresh appeal after arguing that the inquiry into
02:52the post office IT scandal shed new light on his case in my opinion there's another side to this
02:59story I looked at the statements from the post officials and immediately I said well hang on a
03:04minute the jury haven't been given all the facts here this case may be the most egregious miscarriage
03:12justice stemming from the post office scandal
03:42from my memory the verdict came in the afternoon by the time we left the court probably later than it
03:53normally would have been I was exhausted and then I started heading for home and never felt so far away
04:04from home just makes you realize that you know you're lucky that you can go home
04:10didn't feel as if there's closure now which is what you'd hope for or you might expect you do hear
04:29families talking about justice what does justice taste like I don't know
04:37I want to know what happened you know I don't think we have heard what happened we haven't heard the truth
04:49convicted feel lost 20 years how could they have ignored my evidence no DNA on murder weapon relating to me
05:05unknown DNA on pillow clump of light brown hair on pillow photographed then lost by police no evidence
05:18connecting me with the murder we would have conversations with Robin when we when we went in
05:27into prison and he was also right so you know Robin could give us an idea of you know what he thought we
05:34could help with he's an optimistic person but I'm sure underneath Robin felt led down by the system
05:42does it surprise me that he's still protesting his innocence it doesn't really the only thing he can
05:51do is make a judgment on what's known and what's in the public domain really if there's something completely
05:57extraordinary which hasn't emerged which proves him to be innocent then you know that of course would
06:05it would explain his stance and it would be it most horrendous at miscarriage of justice if that were the case
06:10my PhD was on miscarriages of justice and then I started to write specifically about prisoners maintaining
06:21innocence and then I just was inundated with requests from people who were saying you're writing about me
06:29please can you help me you know how does the appeal system actually help the innocent who are caught up in
06:35this because our system actually doesn't care if you're innocent or guilty it's about process the work
06:41I do now for 12 years I set up the innocence projects in Britain trying to overturn these wrongful
06:47convictions when they happen but I heard about Robin's case through friend of Robin's and that's how I
06:52started to look into it and as things stand there is no credible forensic evidence that suggests that
07:00Robin murdered Diana it's just circumstantial evidence so I haven't seen anything that says he did it but
07:10I don't know but I'd like to know it's now more than two years since Diana Garbutt's body was found in
07:20the bedroom of the post office they ran together in Melsenby in North Yorkshire he's always maintained his
07:27innocence claiming his wife was murdered by a masked intruder at trial the prosecution didn't believe
07:33the robbery took place they said that Robin was stealing money it all blew up in the middle of
07:38the night he killed her for it it wasn't just that he found out she'd been sleeping with somebody or
07:43she'd been kissing someone it was also to do with finances I joined the post office in 1978
07:53and then in 1988 my wife and I bought our own post office and we ran that branch for 38 years and all
08:03throughout that time I played a role helping and representing some postmasters when they got into
08:09disputes with the post office at trial experts from the post office working with the police and the
08:15prosecution they said that he was stealing money which undermined his version that we were robbed and
08:24that money was stolen in 2011 the jury would have had complete faith and trust in the post office it
08:33was a British institution so when an official from that organization turns out and gives evidence under
08:40oaths you listen you know you tend not to disbelieve what you're being told the prosecution in Robin
08:47Garbutt's trial claimed data from the Horizon system showed he was stealing from the couple's post office
08:52in Melsomby in North Yorkshire and killed Diana to cover it up everyone likes to know there's a motive
09:00that they can understand and potential of a motive through the misuse of cash seems to have been quite
09:07impacting on the jury at the end of the day each branch entered into the Horizon system a cash
09:15declaration and that assisted then this algorithm to look back at the ins and the outs of customer
09:23transactions to see what cash you held in branch if they thought you had too much cash on the premises
09:30you'd get an automated request from Horizon telling you how much money it thinks you should send back
09:36but a lot of postmasters simply ignored that because it was wrong and it was quite common behavior for a
09:46postmaster to do that Robin knew how his post office ran and he actually stated if you get the graph of
09:54our previous years overnight cash holdings and follow the graphs of rise and peaks and falls it'll
10:01follow what I'm declaring in my post office but the post office at trial said not available that
10:09information haven't we found out after trial it was available when they finally got the records I
10:17looked at the statements from the post office officials and I could see no evidence of any fraud
10:22taking place that's would going to benefit Mr Garbutt it showed that actually this is consistent with
10:29the way that branch conducted the cash management it wasn't till after trial we'd looked into it more
10:40after drowning we've got a previous seven years overnight cash holders that proved the records were correct
10:46that enabled us then to go forward to the appeal card today Robin Garbutt's legal team came back to
11:01court to claim fresh evidence could clear his name post office accounting records which they argued
11:09supported his side of the story where it comes to an appeal the court of appeal only receives cases
11:17if there's fresh evidence or there's an exceptional reason why the evidence that was available wasn't used
11:24that evidence judges said here today should have been made available to Robin Garbutt during his trial
11:31but for jurors to acquit him they said they would have to believe that his wife was killed instantly
11:37that she raised no alarm and that Garbutt who was downstairs at the time heard nothing at all
11:43that they said was highly improbable
11:4824th of May not back day we are stuck with circumstantial evidence I feel so bad I have let
12:02die down again those killers are still out there there is always hope but how strong I am will be
12:10the test and time will tell the reason the appeal failed is that regardless of what happened with
12:19Horizon regardless of what at least financial situation was his version of events of a robber
12:23coming in and killing her it just wasn't plausible not a single witness was found who corroborated this
12:30notion of a robber getting in and getting out without being seen it just it just didn't add up
12:34tonight North Yorkshire police has said it hopes today's decision will mean Diana Garbutt's family can begin
12:41to rebuild their lives despite some in the village still supportive of the man convicted of her killing
12:48Robin Garbutt will tonight continue his 20-year jail sentence
12:52in court they said that nobody could have got in and out of the post office on that morning
13:11what people didn't realize is you can access through the back of the garages
13:18it's a small little snicket down some steps and if Robin was bringing in the stock he would have had the
13:29back door wedged open and the door into the shop would have been open
13:36so if Robin's gone in through the shop and into the little stock room there quite easy for somebody
13:47to come down them steps who's been waiting in the back of the garages the staircase is immediately
13:55through that door and upstairs somebody could have got in there and gone upstairs easy access
14:02so they've got in unbeknown to him got upstairs murdered her why why would you murder her what's
14:12the kind of benefit from the robber's perspective there why why is the robber doing it why would
14:15you murder the postmaster's wife before you get access to the safe so rather than being a robber
14:20you're a murderer hey listen I'm not saying there's a logic to what robbers do but I can't I'm kind of
14:27struggling to see why you would do that in that context really
14:29it is unfortunately a common occurrence for robberies to take place through quite sophisticated
14:38means sometimes I have heard of branches being broken into where perpetrators have waited for
14:45the family to come down in the morning and then they pounce on them make them open the safe and get
14:51out before the public are letting I've heard of that on many occasions invariably there was
14:59evidence of of planning and the ones that would hide in the building if they could they were the
15:04ones in my opinion that would have taken the trouble to plan their attack the way postmas alarms
15:12would work is that their time lock safes didn't take Sherlock Holmes to work out that I've got to wait
15:19until the time locks released otherwise I'm going to set all the alarms off
15:22and as soon as it stopped they'd know that they can open the safe and that's the moment a bandit
15:29would choose to appear and carry out the robbery
15:32after the appeal and lost the appeal the work started with robbing in prison
15:45you know letters going backwards and forwards asking for you know wanting stuff and looking
15:50stuff and the work was absolutely relentless trying to you know put things together find things out as
16:00best we could be plugged away and so I helped him the best he could and he'd do all the work from his
16:07his cell realistically the work he did didn't he he just didn't give in I copied and copied and
16:14copied and copied didn't for hours copying yeah and send into him so he could look at it and then
16:20he could write to people couldn't he wrote to specialists he he never stopped did he no he was
16:26going to prove that there was somebody out there that had done this to die and if he could prove he
16:32hadn't done it then that person would be found
16:44I've struggled with Robin getting attention he's always maintained his innocence
16:58of course I understand if he is innocent when it's terrible if he's wrongly convicted of a crime he
17:08didn't do and they're serving a lengthy time in prison
17:15but at the same time it's about getting the truth about what happened to Diana that's the
17:21most important thing is Diana
17:29she was a real person and she was special
17:38the only body that can refer your case back to the Court of Appeal is the CCRC the Criminal Case
18:05Review Commission and the thing about the CCRC is it can only refer a case back to the Court of Appeal
18:14if there's fresh evidence that wasn't available at the time of the original trial and so it goes
18:19what is fresh what is new since you were convicted
18:23I got involved in the Diana Garbutt murder case at the request of solicitors acting for
18:35the defendant
18:38at the original trial the really key evidence against him was about the fact that the pathologist
18:44had said that she died in the early hours of the morning it was kind of between 2 30 and 4 30 it was
18:50said to the jury and obviously they were saying that they had evidence which suggested that that
18:54wasn't quite as clear-cut that it could have been later which would have you know tallied with his
18:59version of events of a robber coming in and killing her sort of thing
19:01in terms of estimation of the time of death I think all the pathologists involved almost all agreed
19:09on nearly everything so we know when she was last seen alive we know when she was found so that's the
19:15first thing and then we then start to look at the Rigel mortis does that really assist not really the hypostasis the
19:24settling of blood that doesn't really assist the body temperature was measured but even that is variable
19:31and when you actually look at the sort of plots and the graphs it doesn't really take us any further than the two parameters when she was last seen when she was found dead
19:41so then we come into the stomach contents which is the one the area where I thought there was problems
19:48this is the uh statement from Jennifer Miller this time of death ladies and gentlemen Dr Miller a botanist
20:01who also specializes in digestion as far as the time of death goes when it came to trial the food science
20:07she concluded that the most likely time of death was within the window of 2 30 until 4 30 a.m
20:23during the trial I believe the time frames were said to be between half past two and half past four
20:30which really shouldn't be that specific because you don't know the variability in the meal size that
20:38started off precisely when she ate that meal did she eat all of the meal I mean there's just so many
20:44variables that to be so specific just didn't stand up when an expert gives a time slot of death it does make for
20:54powerful evidence especially when the jurors are used to films and television where the pathologist
21:02comes along and says I at the time of death was ten past eight these days on a much more sort of
21:07scientific basis that pathology works on we don't do that at all having reviewed all of the material I
21:14just felt that the timing of death wasn't as specific as was suggested and then in fact we had a much
21:22broader time frame over which to operate including timings that would fit in with the account provided
21:30by the defendant
21:42so the time of death has been discredited as far as we're concerned
21:46it was submitted to the ccrc that this was problematic to say the very very least it was unreliable and the ccrc dismissed it
21:57how can there be the evidence that there is the people that have given statements have spoken you know the professionals how can they disregard it it does not make sense
22:25I can't make sense of it
22:40I've been a private investigator for about two years and then out of the blue I received a telephone call
22:46from the defense of Robin Garber and I was instructed to look at the evidence about the murder weapon
23:04at the trial it was alleged that Robin Garber in the early hours of the morning following the murder had crept
23:11across the road in the middle of the night and placed the metal bar on this position just here
23:19where the little marker is where the tag is as taken from the scenes of crimes photograph so
23:26that is extremely specific as to where the bar was actually found three days later by police search teams
23:32the murder weapon had been found sitting on top of the wall hanging over the end of the wall by about four
23:41inches on either side and therefore clearly visible from the opposite side so the witness that we spoke
23:49to at the the garage that used to be there he was very specific and he remembers standing on the morning of the
23:57the murder just behind the wall on the garage side looking down on the emergency services
24:05and he clearly remembers that had there been a metal bar on the top of the wall he would have removed it
24:14because it would have been in danger of being knocked off and falling onto somebody's head
24:19a key part of the prosecution case was that robin had murdered his wife and then put the bar on that wall
24:33but the photographs taken on the day that she was murdered appears to show it's not there
24:40but a couple of days later it appears on that wall robin could not have put that there
24:46robin was taken to the police station and then he went with his sister and his brother-in-law back to
24:54their home which is about 70 miles away and they were with him from then on
25:01from robin leaving melstonby even to this day obviously in prison but he's never stepped foot in
25:06melstonby since then the next question is to do with the dna which is on the rust that was found on
25:26diana's pillow diana has been hit over the head with an iron bar and murdered it was a rusty iron bar
25:35some of that rust has fallen onto the pillow just to put this in context doctor there is evidence of
25:42dna on the pillow and the dna does not match mr garbert yes
25:51and the reality is that this could be dna from a murderer
25:56potentially yes
25:57it's been tested for dna this has been independently looked at by an expert on behalf of robin garber
26:07and they can't exclude the police officer who wasn't on duty on that day and the police officers asked
26:13where were you on this day because you were off work that day and he says i can't remember
26:19but yet when he comes back to work he somehow manages to be one of the police officers who discovers the iron bar
26:35on the wall
26:38because we know that there was no dna of robin garber found on the metal bar it's another factor
26:46in this murder of diana garber that really does not make sense the reason we're having this discussion
26:54now the reason there is doubt about this case is because of mistakes that were made early in the
26:58inquiry really and that's very difficult for his family but it's even more difficult for her family
27:04as we learn of the errors made the confusion around things questions around the dna and a weapon that was used
27:20to kill diana it made me feel really angry you know it's a disservice to diana
27:28there's just so many question marks around a lot of the evidence and i think there were a lot of errors
27:35made by the police which just made it really hard to say with confidence what happened and whether he was guilty
27:48because of all of the question marks around everything
27:52my dad and i are going to go and visit him in the near future to try and find something out or
28:00that might help make sense of things so my dad and i are going to go together as a support for one another
28:09really going to see him if i had to think of a question for him it would be you've done the three
28:16quarters of your um 20-year sentence why not put all your cards on the table and tell us what happened
28:29in robin's case i have never known a case where you've got a murder weapon with dna on it and it's
28:37not the guy who was sitting in prison for the murder but the ccrc rejected that as well
28:46it's just rejecting every single thing that's being submitted and whether it's time of death
29:06whether it's the murder weapon the ccrc is just like computer says no computer says no computer says no
29:13yes we could find that out we're not prepared to do it we don't think if we do that this
29:18it just shows its reluctance and its lack of commitment to trying to find out the truth
29:26i don't understand why it keeps getting knocked back i don't think the justice system is fair
29:31i don't know if he did it but i've not seen any evidence that indicates that robin did it all the
29:40evidence that led to the conviction it's been discredited to my mind
29:45in general conversation in the village in the pub it's not spoken about it's spoken about in our close
30:03circle of friends but no further than that
30:06i suppose you know melsonby has become sort of synonymous with it hasn't it it's certainly what
30:16i think of when i hear the name of the village somebody once said to us he shouldn't know about
30:22what you're doing because it'll upset him he won't be able to carry on with life in prison
30:29so you separate it for him don't tell him all the details of what you're doing because
30:33he can't do it that hasn't been right he needs the people in melson bay he needs that
30:40commitment from everybody and they're just there for him and that keeps him so strong
30:45and everyone keeps him going but knowing about them and their lives keeps him with us in our world
30:54we can't stop fighting for him but as time goes on i do feel die gets lost
31:03she'll only be remembered as the postmistress she won't be remembered as di
31:10we've lost two friends we've lost di who's obviously not with us anymore and then you've
31:16lost robin who's sort of uh convicted of di's murder so it's uh it's it's a loss all around to be fair
31:33the post office today issued an unreserved apology but for 14 years it prosecuted hundreds
31:48of sub post masters and sub post mistresses for stealing money accusing them of fraud on the basis
31:54of a computer system it knew was defective and was wrongly reporting cash shortfalls
32:01i've never trusted horizon it was introduced into my branch about 2001. it was shortly after its
32:10introduction i started to hear these complaints from members that things weren't going right with
32:16their accounts whereas before everything works swimmingly it was a slow build up of information
32:25from thereafter that horizon was not working as it should do why horizon seems to be significant for
32:35robin is because we see the horizon evidence as being one of the main if not the main piece of evidence
32:43because it's claimed to support the motive for why he murdered his wife and it discredits the
32:49reliabilities of the entries which were relied upon in the original trial and i've said this case may
32:58be the most egregious miscarriage of justice stemming from the post office scandal
33:03highly emotional sense of relief was almost palpable when hundreds of post office branch managers
33:14wrongly convicted of embezzling money learned today they will be exonerated and compensated
33:24the public don't like their institutions that they hold dear to get involved in any form of
33:30controversy and for a controversy as vast as what the post office became in broad in i think the loss of
33:37trust in the post was with the public in a word it's been devastating
33:42wife killer or a victim of post office lies perhaps robin's seen all this and thought like it's all
34:02all these christmases have come at once
34:14the body which reviews potential miscarriages of justice is being asked to look again the case of
34:19a sub postmaster who's serving life in prison for murdering his wife
34:23garbett is embarking on a fourth attempt to have his conviction overturned evidence from the horizon
34:28it system helped convict him but now his lawyers say new evidence has emerged about the faulty computer
34:35system along with information from the post office inquiry friends have labeled it a final roll of the
34:41dice diana's mother has accused garbet of jumping on the horizon bandwagon but his supporters say he never had
34:50a fair trial and it's time for a wider look at his case various people have said that robin's using
34:57this to jump on the bandwagon which is not the case at all this isn't a recent thing back in the trial
35:05our initial appeal was on the post office before any horizon situations came to light anything like that
35:12this has just added weight and this has added power to what we've been fighting against all along
35:22even if one accepts that the horizon scandal has impacted upon this case you know as it has done
35:27with it with so many other post offices across the country how does that directly contradict the
35:33version of events that was given in terms of the events of that night
35:37i've seen the appeal this fourth application i think there's definitely fresh evidence that the
35:45horizon experts should not have been relied upon and if the jury heard what they would know now
35:52they might say that robin's case was unsafe he wants the ccic to send him back to the appeal court
35:58and he wants to prove that he wasn't he's not guilty of this and that's the only way he can do it
36:04and he wants to go back doesn't he yeah he doesn't want the easy way out he doesn't want to just
36:09come out and walk out and come home he wants to do the court and prove that he has not done this
36:15he wants a retrial yeah then that proves without any doubt we've not had closure and we still can't
36:23move on from what happened to diana because it still doesn't make any sense you okay
36:34i sense probably that the horizon evidence will not be sufficient to bring about another trail
36:44that's my sense of it but i could be wrong
36:46we want to know should we have sympathy for this man should we have empathy for him being trapped
37:02in prison or should we not care that this man has the audacity to say he didn't kill his wife
37:08and he's just trying it on because if people can do these kind of murders they can certainly
37:16tell lies to somebody like me it's about 15 years since i spoke to robin i think it's the day of my 40th
37:24birthday it's been quite a while there are two possibilities aren't there one is that there is a
37:32terrible miscarriage of justice here i'll contend the opposite actually i think that there's a failure on
37:37his behalf to just acknowledge what he's done really and that must be a subject of some kind
37:44of contention and controversy for the people who just want to want to draw a line under it
37:49i don't expect to come from here today being like totally convinced one way or the other
37:55but you know we spent a lot of time thinking well if robin didn't do it what did happen and it's like
38:02it just drains your energy so you know getting to the bottom of it is the absolute task and robin
38:09needs to know that we'll never give up
38:22there's no reward you know we can't bring diana back
38:27but you know somebody's got to speak up and you know tell um you know tell everybody that we we
38:39missed diana
38:45you have this thing don't you where people convince themselves that you know they haven't done it in
38:50order to somehow deal with it i think
38:56oh you okay it's so hard to judge isn't it in these cases you missed me
39:06let's be honest there's only really robin goblin knows isn't it what happened down that night
39:10did feel a bit like an audience with robin he's got his um story and it's not going to change
39:23he said well i'm doing the right thing maintaining his innocence it's like the right thing for die
39:30you know sticking to the story stroke telling the truth but i guess he almost has to do that like
39:40he was never gonna sort of you know he's not gonna buckle he's not gonna buckle uh anytime soon you know
39:49but he's not being able to persuade you that he's an innocent man no he's tried to
39:55hmm he's definitely tried but i'm um an underweiser
40:03yeah i'd say if he's done it that's one definite thing from today if he's done it
40:09he's not going to um change his tune like he'll take it to the grave
40:16hmm there isn't any closure there can only be closure when somebody says i'm guilty
40:25oh this is what happened if robin's appeal goes well he's going to move on
40:34and we're not going to be any other way is it
40:39diana isn't able to say what happened and so you won't be evidence to speak on her behalf
40:55you know the police have got a job to do and when they don't do it properly like the
41:00the outcome's devastating for the family is left not knowing what truly happened
41:09and there isn't justice for diana
41:11so
41:23so
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