Wer heutzutage eine Wohnung sucht, kommt kaum noch darum herum, sich einen Account bei Immoscout24 & Co. zu erstellen. Diese „Platform Real Estate“ sind eine besondere Art der „Walled Gardens“, die ihr Geschäftsmodell auf die sich immer weiter verschärfende Wohnungskrise ausgerichtet haben. Und das ist äußerst profitabel für die Besitzer dieser Strukturen der Daseinsvorsorge: Im September 2025 stieg Scout24 in den DAX auf und reiht sich damit in Unternehmen wie BMW, Rheinmetall und SAP ein.
In unserem Vortrag zeigen wir, wie Immoscout & Co. mit einem ausgeklügelten technischen System Monopolprofite generiert, die Mieten in die Höhe treibt und ein Vermieterparadies aufgebaut hat, das die Mieter:innen in den Wahnsinn treibt.
Wir bleiben aber nicht bei der Kritik stehen, sondern zeigen, wie durch die Vergesellschaftung von Plattformen der Daseinsvorsorge ein Werkzeug entstehen kann, das den Mittellosen auf dem Wohnungsmarkt hilft. Vermieter in ihre Schranken zu weisen und Markttransparenz für alle statt nur für die Besitzenden zu schaffen.
Licensed to the public under http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0
#39C3,
#RedScout42,
#Wohnungsfrage,
#Digitalisierung,
#Wohnungsmarkt,
#Immoscout24,
#Mietwahnsinn,
#Mietwucher,
#Algorithmen,
#Wohnungsnot,
#Berlin,
#Mietpreisbremse,
#Datenanalyse,
#OpenData,
#RedScout,
#Hacktivism,
#Wohnen,
#Grundrecht,
#Vergesellschaftung,
#Daseinsvorsorge,
#RechtAufStadt,
#Transparenz,
#SozialeGerechtigkeit,
#Immobilienhaie,
#Mietendeckel,
#Mietenstopp,
#SozialerWohnungsbau,
#Wohnungspolitik,
#Plattformökonomie,
#Datenschutz,
#OpenSource,
#Mietvertrag,
#Vermieter,
#Mieterbund,
#Immobilienpreise,
#CCC,
#Aktivismus,
#DataScience,
#TechnikFolgenAbschätzung,
#Immobilienwirtschaft,
#BezahlbarerWohnraum,
#Gentrifizierung,
#Wohnungskrise,
#TechKritik,
#Mietbetrug,
#Mietrecht,
#Gemeinwohl,
#DigitalerWandel,
#InternetPolitik,
#Stadtplanung,
#SoftwareArchitecture,
#ZukunftWohnen,
#Congress,
#Hacking,
#Gesellschaftspolitik,
Willkommen zu diesem Deep Dive vom #39C3, dem 39. Chaos Communication Congress! In diesem Beitrag widmen wir uns der brennenden #Wohnungsfrage im digitalen Zeitalter. Das Projekt #RedScout42 nimmt die Übermacht großer Portale wie #Immoscout24 unter die Lupe und zeigt, wie die #Digitalisierung den #Wohnungsmarkt verändert hat.
Wir analysieren den aktuellen #Mietwahnsinn und wie #Mietwucher oft durch intransparente #Algorithmen begünstigt wird. Während die #Wohnungsnot in Städten wie #Berlin zunimmt, umgehen viele Anbieter systematisch die #Mietpreisbremse. Doch es gibt Widerstand: Mit #Datenanalyse und #OpenData deckt #RedScout Missstände auf. Dieser #Hacktivism zeigt, dass #Wohnen ein #Grundrecht ist und keine reine Ware.
Wir diskutieren über #Vergesellschaftung, #Daseinsvorsorge und das #RechtAufStadt. Es geht um #Transparenz, #SozialeGerechtigkeit und den Kampf gegen #Immobilienhaie. Ob #Mietendeckel, #Mietenstopp oder #SozialerWohnungsbau
In unserem Vortrag zeigen wir, wie Immoscout & Co. mit einem ausgeklügelten technischen System Monopolprofite generiert, die Mieten in die Höhe treibt und ein Vermieterparadies aufgebaut hat, das die Mieter:innen in den Wahnsinn treibt.
Wir bleiben aber nicht bei der Kritik stehen, sondern zeigen, wie durch die Vergesellschaftung von Plattformen der Daseinsvorsorge ein Werkzeug entstehen kann, das den Mittellosen auf dem Wohnungsmarkt hilft. Vermieter in ihre Schranken zu weisen und Markttransparenz für alle statt nur für die Besitzenden zu schaffen.
Licensed to the public under http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0
#39C3,
#RedScout42,
#Wohnungsfrage,
#Digitalisierung,
#Wohnungsmarkt,
#Immoscout24,
#Mietwahnsinn,
#Mietwucher,
#Algorithmen,
#Wohnungsnot,
#Berlin,
#Mietpreisbremse,
#Datenanalyse,
#OpenData,
#RedScout,
#Hacktivism,
#Wohnen,
#Grundrecht,
#Vergesellschaftung,
#Daseinsvorsorge,
#RechtAufStadt,
#Transparenz,
#SozialeGerechtigkeit,
#Immobilienhaie,
#Mietendeckel,
#Mietenstopp,
#SozialerWohnungsbau,
#Wohnungspolitik,
#Plattformökonomie,
#Datenschutz,
#OpenSource,
#Mietvertrag,
#Vermieter,
#Mieterbund,
#Immobilienpreise,
#CCC,
#Aktivismus,
#DataScience,
#TechnikFolgenAbschätzung,
#Immobilienwirtschaft,
#BezahlbarerWohnraum,
#Gentrifizierung,
#Wohnungskrise,
#TechKritik,
#Mietbetrug,
#Mietrecht,
#Gemeinwohl,
#DigitalerWandel,
#InternetPolitik,
#Stadtplanung,
#SoftwareArchitecture,
#ZukunftWohnen,
#Congress,
#Hacking,
#Gesellschaftspolitik,
Willkommen zu diesem Deep Dive vom #39C3, dem 39. Chaos Communication Congress! In diesem Beitrag widmen wir uns der brennenden #Wohnungsfrage im digitalen Zeitalter. Das Projekt #RedScout42 nimmt die Übermacht großer Portale wie #Immoscout24 unter die Lupe und zeigt, wie die #Digitalisierung den #Wohnungsmarkt verändert hat.
Wir analysieren den aktuellen #Mietwahnsinn und wie #Mietwucher oft durch intransparente #Algorithmen begünstigt wird. Während die #Wohnungsnot in Städten wie #Berlin zunimmt, umgehen viele Anbieter systematisch die #Mietpreisbremse. Doch es gibt Widerstand: Mit #Datenanalyse und #OpenData deckt #RedScout Missstände auf. Dieser #Hacktivism zeigt, dass #Wohnen ein #Grundrecht ist und keine reine Ware.
Wir diskutieren über #Vergesellschaftung, #Daseinsvorsorge und das #RechtAufStadt. Es geht um #Transparenz, #SozialeGerechtigkeit und den Kampf gegen #Immobilienhaie. Ob #Mietendeckel, #Mietenstopp oder #SozialerWohnungsbau
Category
🤖
TechTranscript
00:00It's great that you're all here. It's crowded, it's warm. We just got off the train.
00:20We jumped out and are now thrilled. Exactly, so thank you so much from me too for joining us!
00:25You've come to the talk. And I'd like to ask a question, so I'll start with a short one. Who among you has
00:31Have you ever looked for an apartment on Immobilienscout24? Just raise your hand. Okay, that speaks for...
00:38themselves. And who has ever reluctantly signed up for a paid subscription to Immobilienscout? These are
00:45A little less already. And who has successfully found an affordable apartment? At least that's something. At least that's something.
00:54Okay, yes, Immobilienscout24. So, in September 2025, as was just mentioned,
01:01Some of you have probably noticed this too. Immoscout is part of Scout24 and Scout24 is
01:07It was added to the DAX in September. It is now therefore one of the 40 most valuable listed companies.
01:14Companies on the German stock market, and in doing so, have even displaced Porsche, for example. Exactly,
01:19There was a lot of media coverage about it. And we're also wondering, how is that even possible?
01:26Is it possible that such an internet platform for housing could displace industrial companies from the DAX?
01:32We will also explore this question in our presentation. And Wirtschaftswoche actually already addressed it.
01:40Even now, it has given us a clue, albeit with a very specific framing.
01:45But before we talk about internet platforms, let's talk about the housing crisis again.
01:49talk, because it's quite important to remember that even if we get the next
01:53People talk a lot about technology these days, but the housing crisis is not an information technology issue.
01:59It's not primarily a problem, but a societal problem. We've seen it in the...
02:05The housing market, to deal with a very special market, namely urban space, is
02:10Limited; land is a limited resource and therefore extremely susceptible to speculation.
02:16We also have the case where economists would say that demand is elastic,
02:23They always use a lot of foreign words to say pretty simple things.
02:26You can't just build houses as quickly as you can, for example, build Snickers bars.
02:34If chocolate bars can be remade, even more can be added. That means also
02:40When demand is very high and prices rise, it simply can't keep up.
02:45as is the case now in these classic models that one is taught in neoclassicism,
02:51It works. Another point that is very often left out, and I agree, is that...
02:56I tried not to start with housing being a human right, and with that we have
03:00The debate has actually been settled, but I wanted to get a bit of an insight from the economists.
03:03Consider this. And economists would say there are high transaction costs, especially...
03:08Things for the tenants. What does that mean? It means that even if they find something else somewhere,
03:12If an apartment opens up that might suit me better, the move isn't exactly a simple matter.
03:17It was regulated. Sure, but if you, as a student, had five boxes, then that was fine.
03:22Perhaps even some organizational aspects. But if you're moving with your family now...
03:28You want to have lots of fun managing three children alongside your job. And then, you have
03:34You all contacted me when you said, "Here's the thing: I already have an apartment."
03:38Wanted. You all know what a huge undertaking that is. It's an incredible amount of work, it's really...
03:43difficult. And in that respect, we are dealing here with a structural power asymmetry on the
03:48to do with the housing market. Tenants are extremely disadvantaged in saying, okay,
03:53I don't like it here. I'm going somewhere else now, where all these models are located.
03:57always be based on this. It's very important to note that there are problems that arise.
04:02to deviate from it.
04:03Exactly. And if we briefly look again at the causes of the housing crisis a little more
04:08To clarify, there are three main processes that are repeatedly emphasized:
04:13that have happened. And firstly, there's the privatization. That means, above all...
04:17In the 1990s, many cities sold social housing for quick money, which then went into the municipal coffers.
04:24was flushed. And that all happened simultaneously; these processes are all interconnected, too.
04:28With deregulation, if you look at it from the other side, liberalization of
04:33Financial markets. That essentially means social housing; construction has also been privatized. And that,
04:40although renting is still the main form of housing, especially in Germany, so
04:45Not the owner-occupied home. And what emerged from that were publicly traded housing companies,
04:50which you probably all know, for example Deutsche Wohnen. So, and with the
04:54Financialization can also be described, above all, as the acquisition of land in promising areas.
05:00The land was not acquired primarily for construction purposes, so at least not in all cases.
05:05not only to invest, but also to speculate and profit from further price increases through resale.
05:10to set. That means we are dealing here with a massive shortage of affordable
05:14To do apartments.
05:18Exactly, and this graph, Berlin will now run through it, we come from Berlin and know
05:23This graph is important because you shouldn't look at it.
05:27Okay, Y goes up, but the important thing is the distinction between the rental price in existing buildings.
05:33and in the asking rents. So you can see here that this is primarily responsible for the increase.
05:40The price is primarily affected by asking rents. And those are the rents that are then, so
05:45These are the apartments that end up on these platforms.
05:49Exactly, and what's the status of this new housing question we're discussing here?
05:54What are the implications of this housing crisis for a digital one? Where exactly do companies like ImmoScout24 and ImmoScout24 come in?
05:58Classified ads, ImmoNet, and all the others included? Because we just saw the reasons are...
06:01It's not these platforms per se, but rather the digital question surrounding them, which is that one...
06:10It actually needs to be made clear that a housing platform should be understood as part of a
06:14digital infrastructure. It should actually be part of essential digital public services.
06:20do it. If you're interested in learning more, you can read about it at
06:23Our colleague Dominic Pietron, who has researched this extensively. Exactly, and what now?
06:27a platform, as most of you already know, but it's worth briefly emphasizing again,
06:32that platforms, with their business model, essentially act as modular digital infrastructure, thus playing a role
06:38an intermediary, i.e., acting as an intermediary between customers and partners, thus bridging supply and demand,
06:43This is coordinated, especially algorithmically, and also via data. That means...
06:49Above all, rules have been established. How do these processes work? What is offered and how? That is to say,
06:54Platforms themselves, these companies, have a great deal of power. And what else they do
06:58What distinguishes it is that it is also a business model that is frequently
07:03This includes outsourced value creation. And that in turn means that the platforms
07:09They can then take advantage of several things. Firstly, network effects between providers.
07:14and customers, but also users or other third-party providers, such as...
07:19Financial service providers, moving companies, and housing platforms located there
07:23They all thrive there, benefiting from the size of the ecosystem, and then everyone is there
07:28They want to be. That means the network or ecosystem is constantly growing, the platform
07:32This leads to a strong tendency towards monopolization and virtually an automation of supply and
07:39Demand. This in turn creates login effects, because everyone wants to be on the platform.
07:44and cannot simply prevent people from using them or essentially blocking the services.
07:49not to take advantage of it. And the third effect, which is very useful for the platform,
07:56These are essentially economies of scale. It's possible to grow very, very quickly without incurring high costs.
08:02to have costs. If you look specifically at ImmoScout, there are primarily three of them.
08:09coordinated business segments that are aligned with each other, but above all
08:14also on the value chain of the real estate market. And the whole thing is really worked out quite clearly.
08:19in a short video, which you can also find on YouTube (linked below), how
08:24ImmoScout prints 24 million. We'll be referring to that in a discussion here. Exactly,
08:29And this business segment is, on the one hand, the data business. For example, there...
08:34Real estate valuation data is sometimes even resold multiple times to real estate agents.
08:39Financial service providers. This means that revenue is generated through this, and the other
08:44The two segments are the business customer segment and the private customer segment, that is...
08:49So, you. Exactly, the searchers. Exactly, and that's why ImmoScout, for example, was essentially created in
08:55Manager Magazin described it as a fucking money-printing machine because of all these nice platform effects.
09:01They can also be very useful in relation to the housing market. Exactly, and if you look at it that way,
09:08The revenue in 2024, then you can clearly see, these private customers, you, are making
09:15only 28 percent, whereas business customers, i.e. brokers and others, account for the far larger share.
09:20To shoulder a share. Exactly, the professional customer segment, the one we're essentially talking about, that's...
09:2880 percent are real estate agents, and of course behind them are the owners who put these apartments on the market.
09:35They want to bring in. And the fact is, ImmoScout charges approximately 1000 euros per business customer.
09:42per year, and also take up to 20 percent of the brokers' margin.
09:47So it's kind of, is kind of, stacked up, a business model based on
09:51a business model on top of a business model. And that's why they're also valued in the real estate industry.
09:56It's been very harshly criticized. There's a lot of criticism coming. In the documentary that Sandra just watched...
10:00Since I mentioned it, will ImmoScout also be confronted with it? What's going on here?
10:04Actually? And I have to say, ImmoScout actually has a pretty good answer to that.
10:08They say things like, well, real estate agents are businesspeople, they would do that now.
10:11They wouldn't do it if it wasn't worth it for them, i.e., if they wouldn't get a return on their investment.
10:15of investment. In other words, they're selling something: the possibility that
10:21It's probably easier to sell properties that would otherwise be very difficult to sell.
10:26For example, through surcharges for visibility, such as repeatedly requesting window displays.
10:31Push the top button and then wait until one bites. They also have so many different kinds.
10:38Subscription models, then there's the gold standard, then there are various integrated ones.
10:42Service, and then you know all that talk: One Ecosystem, All Services, blah blah blah in one.
10:49Inside. And yes, that's noticeable, because they're also actively involved, and so are the prices.
10:55to push upwards for the professional customer segment.
11:00Exactly, and if we now turn our attention back to the tenants or those looking for accommodation,
11:04I won't go into the subscription model in detail right now, because...
11:08Most of you are probably familiar with this. But it's also about integration.
11:14Various data, a great deal of data, happens, which is then reused.
11:18They can offer the promise of better visibility and better opportunities. That is to say, advantages here.
11:23For example, okay, a promise is to put your contact request at the top. You can do it earlier.
11:29Contact ads; otherwise, they won't be activated until much later without a subscription. You have
11:34These applicants are in the portfolio. There is also an integration with Schufa (German credit agency) and one can
11:39They also have to grant access to their account. And there are simply different subscription models.
11:45And as you can see, it's unclear how long the search for an apartment will take, but the shorter the time...
11:48The more you sign up for this subscription, the more you pay. This is a familiar pattern with other subscriptions.
11:52Platforms.
11:55However, it's not entirely clear how effective this subscription actually is. So, searchers...
11:59They don't really find out if their request has now reached the top. How could it, when
12:05Almost everyone takes out a paid subscription?
12:06This was one of the criticisms, as was virtually all the data collection and a
12:13Misleading advertising surrounding the Schufa credit check. That's why, for example, the consumer protection agency has also taken action.
12:19They sued and they won their case. Exactly. And that makes us feel quite...
12:28It brings back memories of the beginnings of the ImmoScout success model, because it became known
12:32ImmoScout, especially as a sponsor of the first season of Big Brother. Exactly. Yes. And ImmoScout
12:42This data-intensive business model is constantly being optimized, including with new segments. There are
12:46For example, WohnenPlus. Here too, subscription prices are being raised. This means that those searching for apartments...
12:50will be asked to pay.
12:52And if you could take the whole thing to another level, even a little bit more
12:57Meter goes on about what's actually happening there, then it's actually a pension extraction.
13:03And pensions, as defined by economist Marina Mazzucato, are primarily about access to
13:10and the control of scarce assets. That is, things that are not readily available, like land, for example.
13:20And that one then has the opportunity to deal with unproductive activities, that means above all
13:26without any effort, to collect sums of money, to get margins and to be able to enforce such an interest,
13:35Because you have that power, because you have the platform, or rather, a business model based on a business model.
13:42Because they own the land. And the fact is, ImmoScout has had incredible growth margins in recent years.
13:50Everything is really bursting at the seams. If you compare that to profit margins in other industries,
13:58That's truly unbelievable. I think even the Saudi Arabian oil company...
14:02The largest company fails to achieve margins like ImmoScout.
14:09We still had a few questions, because that's how it is now, based on what we've told you.
14:13And I know that was a wild ride, but unfortunately, that's all part of it.
14:17We were still wondering, okay, but what's really happening on this platform?
14:22Because we don't really have this access to the data.
14:27How does it actually happen that rents keep rising?
14:30What is ImmoScout's actual share in this?
14:33And then we obtained a dataset with 7,273 listings, as I said, from Berlin, collected this November.
14:45Of course, you can also do web scraping yourself, but those who already have experience...
14:50Scraping large platforms is a lot of work, and they always break.
14:57And then I thought to myself, yeah, I'm not going to pick a fight with a platform now,
15:00who somehow ordered 5 people to do scrape protection,
15:06Instead, I simply bought the Rapid API from this dubious platform.
15:10and then I downloaded them because of Choose Your Battles.
15:17We have, this looks terrible now, I just want to say it briefly,
15:21There is information contained in these listings that is not explicitly stated on ImmoScout.
15:28And then, just so you know, we have MAF sensors, there are always problems with those.
15:33Incorrect things always come out of that, so we want to be completely transparent.
15:35We tried to filter out what are furnished apartments and what are social housing units.
15:41Where might there be a fixed term in the rental agreements, you know, all those kinds of things?
15:44I will address those points again shortly, as they are very relevant for regulation in tenancy law.
15:50And then we just asked a classic prompt question,
15:53They had it classified using a model.
15:58Exactly, and as a starting point we have now taken this data,
16:02I looked at the average asking rent (excluding utilities) on ImmoScout.
16:06and compared with established surveys on rent indices.
16:12That is, once from the Investment Bank Berlin and once with the so-called German Real Estate Index,
16:17So, the Grex, both are practically lower than this 17.67 euros per square meter,
16:27which we found here on ImmoScout.
16:29That doesn't seem so drastic in itself.
16:32But if you take it a little further and imagine,
16:38Using a numerical example, how high would this basic rent actually be?
16:41which is the average result that comes out of it.
16:43And if we assume that Berlin or Hamburg has an average apartment,
16:4780 square meters, times this average asking price,
16:52So, the advertised rent on ImmoScout would already be €1,413 per month (excluding utilities).
16:57And that's not so little after all.
17:00And the question is, how can this value actually be classified?
17:02Exactly, that was the simplest thing one could do with this data at the beginning.
17:09However, there is much more that can be done, and for that we have enlisted some support.
17:14namely from the rent check.
17:16I can recommend this to everyone if you live in Berlin and want to check it out,
17:20If you're paying too much rent, definitely go there.
17:22They did this very thoroughly using all sorts of questionnaires.
17:27And in the end, you get a range indicating the potential savings.
17:33And we took advantage of that.
17:35Many thanks to Gregor and Jonas for giving us the opportunity to
17:40that we were allowed to use their scripts.
17:42Okay, now it's getting very northern again.
17:53We're going into tenancy law.
17:55This concerns the rent control law.
17:57Basically, rent control means,
18:01The landlord may not charge more than the maximum permissible rent.
18:06the local comparative rent.
18:10You can guess what the next slide is.
18:13The next slide is about what the local comparative rent is.
18:16But first, let me point this out again, it's very important,
18:19The tenants must actively demand this.
18:22The rent control law is not in place, and landlords will then face consequences.
18:26if they don't do that,
18:28But in practice, it is the tenants who have to complain.
18:33and usually have to go to court,
18:35to assert their claim to this right.
18:38The Berlin Tenants' Association says that the law has numerous exceptions and loopholes.
18:42and is extremely dissatisfied with it.
18:45And it is, one has to imagine, just about the only regulatory tool available.
18:48what's even left on the housing market.
18:51Everything else has been scrapped.
18:53The rent control law does not apply to newly constructed apartments after October 1, 2014.
18:59and nothing for comprehensive modernization either.
19:01That's also quite tricky, very controversial, what exactly that means.
19:05It corresponds to approximately one third of the cost of a comparable new apartment.
19:11That's quite a lot, just to give you a rough idea.
19:14There are numerous loopholes, criticizes the Berlin Tenants' Association.
19:18Furnishings, short-term rentals, there are variations and so on and so forth.
19:24That's why we did it with this LLM, for example.
19:26Local comparable rents.
19:29Just so you get a rough idea, you need the year of manufacture.
19:33You need the living space and you need the location of the residence in order to calculate that.
19:36The residential location is determined by the address.
19:38All cities have different classifications of these residential areas.
19:42That's quite funny, you get a PDF, 100 pages or so, about the city of Berlin.
19:48And then you can look up where his address is.
19:52And so there is essentially a lower and an upper range.
19:55This is quite important now.
19:57We'll skip the equipment for now,
20:00because she always hints a little bit at where that tension lies.
20:03But for the analysis, we'll simply use the lower end of the range.
20:07Because we don't want to do any harm to the landlords and the large real estate platforms.
20:13Exactly. And now the other assumptions we made for the analysis.
20:17So we removed all listings from the analysis where we didn't find this year of manufacture at all.
20:23All listings built after 2014, or all properties or apartments built after 2014, will be removed.
20:31Because it's a new building, the rent control law doesn't apply.
20:34We ruled out social housing, and you've already mentioned the issue with the amenities.
20:39And we have now calculated based on the worst-case scenario for the tenants.
20:43so a very conservative estimate of the upper range of the rent index,
20:46which can be taken.
20:48Exactly, I think I just said that the wrong way around.
20:51So it's correct as it's written there.
20:53Exactly, and what does that mean for our data set, which doesn't appear here?
20:58Ah yes.
20:58That's okay.
21:00We can manage that too.
21:00We had over 7,000 listings, but unfortunately we only had 43.3 percent of them.
21:10So, roughly 3,000 something-or-other that even specify the year of manufacture.
21:16That means we took those and then essentially removed all the other exceptions from them.
21:22and then they had 43 percent, so about 1,000, I think around 1,300 or 1,600,
21:31I can't see it right now without the slide, listings that are potentially subject to the rent control law.
21:37What was very noticeable was the extremely high number of listings after 2014, i.e., new buildings offered at high prices.
21:46Perhaps just to say something briefly, we just swapped computers at the last minute, which is why this display is missing here.
21:52Imagine two pie charts, each of which is cut in half.
21:56And in the end, approximately 1,300 listings remain from our sample.
22:01Firstly, because the data quality is poor, and secondly, because this is practically an exclusion due to the rent control law.
22:07So, the one where it doesn't apply at all.
22:10And when you look at the composition of this offer, it actually becomes quite interesting.
22:15Because the state-owned ones, in case you didn't know, those are the municipal companies in Berlin,
22:22They are only represented by a few hundred listings, that's maybe two to three percent, when in reality it's 19 percent.
22:28The cooperatives, I think I only found two or three listings at all that were posted by cooperatives,
22:34They actually represent eleven percent of the Berlin housing market.
22:38Another difficulty is that only the big names can really be clearly extracted.
22:45Because it's a network of brokers and various interest groups who then do it in some way.
22:55Exactly.
22:55Social housing was also very scarce, but what was also available was a great many furnished apartments.
23:04In conclusion, public benefit-oriented and low-price advertisements are actually underrepresented.
23:09This means that the ownership situation is not presented transparently.
23:13It's not always possible to see exactly who owns something.
23:15And now comes the Feining we found here, which is also quite pricey.
23:24And it's a little bit, come with me, you see this grey, dotted line,
23:30That's essentially the limit for the rent control law.
23:34Everything that is now further up the hill exceeds the local comparative rent by 10%.
23:46The next red line, where we then enter the realm of white-collar crime law,
23:51That's when administrative offenses come into play.
23:54And from 50% upwards, the rent gouging clause actually applies, I say actually,
24:00and one should actually be talking about the criminal offense.
24:02These laws, the rent gouging clause, have been extremely weakened.
24:08This is hardly used anymore, unfortunately, because tenants have to prove...
24:13that they took advantage of the housing situation.
24:16That means you are obligated to demonstrate that you have applied for everything possible.
24:21and it didn't work out and the other person essentially took advantage of your living situation,
24:26took advantage of your situation.
24:27Extremely difficult, unfortunately it doesn't work at all.
24:30But what you can definitely see here is that the listings on ImmoScout are completely disproportionate to the actual number of properties.
24:38which is actually possible somehow.
24:39I made this distinction here regarding the legal aspect; it depends.
24:43It contains all sorts of things, like furnished apartments, indexed and graduated rents,
24:48So all the different things where it's always a bit of a legal dispute,
24:53How much more will be added is too small a figure to speculate on at this point.
24:57The lower category, one could say with relative confidence, is applicable.
25:01And there too we see that it is completely overrun.
25:05What does that mean? 57% of the listings in our sample may violate the rent control law.
25:1341% are above the limit for this so-called usurious rent clause and could constitute a criminal offense.
25:19The subjunctive mood is very important here.
25:21What does this mean in terms of potential savings for tenants?
25:27Yes, we're talking about 500, sometimes even 1000 euros per month.
25:33which people could save if the rent control law simply took effect.
25:40Exactly, and yes, that's what we found in our data analysis, the findings,
25:44One could almost say that ImmoScout was a platform in the interest of property owners.
25:53That means one can say that on ImmoScout24, presumably (this is written in very small print),
25:59systematically ignoring the rent control law, and apparently, rents can be found on ImmoScout24 that...
26:04It's also written in very small print, especially in high-priced apartments.
26:07driven by furnishing, short-term rentals and new construction
26:10and through the absence of community-oriented housing advertisements
26:15ImmoScout24 may then distort assumptions about market prices upwards.
26:21That means we have a false sense of transparency.
26:24But why is it written in such small print?
26:27Well, if you've ever seen this before, I don't know if you have,
26:29But if you take a broker account and look at it from the other side,
26:34Most of you probably know the other perspective of renters looking for an apartment,
26:38But once you're on the other side, you'll see a completely different interface.
26:43And do you see that tiny dot with the question mark? Do you see it?
26:48Can you highlight again?
26:51Ah, can you do it again? Something's coming.
26:52Ah yes.
26:55This value is initially estimated based on your input and has not been adjusted to reflect the rent index or the rental price brake.
27:02Ah, yes, that's a shame.
27:06Yes.
27:07And we were now wondering what this platform would actually look like if it were there for the tenants.
27:12And now we'll take you on a little journey through speculative platform design,
27:17That's why there's also the rainbow,
27:20Specifically for Red Scout24.
27:25Disclaimer: This is not about actually turning this into a prototype.
27:28We simply want to use this as a template for utopia.
27:33Yes, exactly.
27:34And as we showed at the beginning,
27:37The housing market exhibits this structural power asymmetry,
27:40in favor of the providers, i.e. against the seekers or renters.
27:44And the digital business model seems to exacerbate this rather than counteract it.
27:50And therefore, from our perspective, the goal of such a housing platform should be to...
27:53that it is a public service oriented part of a public welfare system
27:57and counteracts this social inequality through quasi-conscious design decisions
28:02and ideally, it also cancels it out.
28:04This would therefore be more than just a software design as a real utopia,
28:08but it should also be about creating a kind of co-determination and ownership structure.
28:14So a platform for everyone, including tenants, would primarily mean...
28:18one platform for everyone.
28:20This means that, above all, a democratic, public-interest-oriented organizational structure would be necessary.
28:25which then actually enables such two-way transparency
28:29and not simply data streams and data continuously extracted.
28:33Tenants' associations and tenant protection groups could be involved in this, for example.
28:38And what would be most needed is complementary regulation of the real estate market,
28:44so that all real estate listings can be found on this platform, for example.
28:49that they appear there, so that the price development can be tracked.
28:53There is a mandatory connection for electricity and water.
28:56And the same could also be conceivable as a mandatory digital connection for apartment listings.
29:02Exactly, and that would also be the case if you look at it more specifically,
29:06What could this housing platform look like? It would be very simple at first.
29:11It would first involve reversing the query logic.
29:14That means you shouldn't start with sponsored listings for overpriced luxury suites,
29:19but rather the needs of tenants and those seeking accommodation.
29:22That means, for example, one could ask, what do you need?
29:25How many people are actually supposed to live in this apartment?
29:28Does each person need their own room? How much money do you have available?
29:32What are the places one needs to visit regularly?
29:36Are there any other things one should know?
29:39Is there a need for assistance or an entitlement to a WBS (housing entitlement certificate)?
29:43Exactly, but what would that mean specifically on this platform?
29:47We came up with three possible features.
29:52The first one is relatively simple, also in the sense of the rent check website we just presented.
29:58Rent checks should not be the responsibility of the tenants,
30:01but should also be enforced by the platform itself.
30:04This means offers that obviously violate the rent control law or are overpriced,
30:09They shouldn't even be hired on such a platform in the first place.
30:13Okay, here's another feature that we think would be quite exciting,
30:17almost in the same logic of reversing,
30:19that there might also be a landlord rating.
30:22So, here again is the transparency on the system's side.
30:25How reliable is the landlady, actually?
30:28What about maintenance?
30:29Are there any planned construction projects?
30:31How many properties does this owner actually own?
30:33Where is she sitting?
30:34All these things about which we could learn so little,
30:39I think that should also be guaranteed for a fair allocation process.
30:45so that those who are essentially searching can also see it.
30:48It would also be possible, for example, to have former tenants evaluated.
30:52And the last point, that's where we would really go in.
30:56in very strict regulations in a platform design,
31:01that it's essentially a sorting algorithm based on social criteria
31:06It presents 30 potential tenants, who are then simply ranked.
31:10and the landlords then have to show them the apartment first.
31:13and consider them first and can't just pick and choose,
31:17who they would prefer, but different criteria simply apply.
31:20Okay, were you now ready to grant us access to your account?
31:24And we could see you have a lot of money.
31:29Of course, it's not that simple.
31:32Exactly, and one more short addition.
31:34If you are interested in learning more about fair award criteria,
31:38Also check out Deutsche Wohnen enteignung.
31:40They've published a nice brochure on the topic of shared living.
31:44It's described there again.
31:45And if you've been wondering what the answer to everything is,
31:49For us, 42 means the socialization of ImmoScout
31:52And if you're interested in joining, then send us an email.
31:55and then we'll see how we can nationalize ImmoScout.
31:57Thank you.
31:57Thank you so much, Sarah and Leonard, for your very informative presentation.
32:15We now have about six minutes for questions.
32:18If you have any questions, feel free to come to microphones one and two.
32:21The first one is at the front, the second one is in the back in the second third.
32:24Are there any online questions while people are still gathering?
32:28No? None?
32:30Okay, let's start with the first microphone.
32:32Please.
32:34Thank you for your presentation.
32:36A quick question now, from a local political perspective.
32:40Would that be an option, or would you recommend it?
32:44For example, a municipality or city might open its own housing portal as a competitor.
32:51and that the municipal companies themselves advertise there first,
32:56To make this platform attractive, so to speak?
32:58Would that be an option?
32:59Should we answer directly or gather information first?
33:05From my point of view, definitely, when it comes to creating alternatives to the current situation.
33:12And there are probably already some municipalities where this is common practice.
33:15I don't know if it was the city of Munich.
33:17I don't quite remember it anymore.
33:18But there are indeed municipalities, and I believe it's the same in Berlin,
33:22that they are striving to have their own platforms
33:27and also to include other search masks and other award criteria there.
33:32But it must also be said that this is of course not nearly enough.
33:33You just don't measure up to them.
33:35And always, that's also a classic open-source thing.
33:37We'll simply build an alternative and then it will work out.
33:40And I think we've been there often enough by now.
33:42And that is definitely not the solution.
33:44I believe this platform needs to be nationalized.
33:46There must be a mandatory connection requirement for all listings, for all real estate providers.
33:53that they have to use this platform and that we own this platform
33:56so that we can decide what the rules are on this platform.
33:59And that's not enough.
34:00So, one can somehow find a way to do this in local politics,
34:02If you want to make a good argument, you need to be sure and all that.
34:05But I don't think that's the answer.
34:08Thank you very much. Then microphone number two is at the back.
34:11Yes, hi. I'm also from Berlin.
34:13I live in a one-room apartment.
34:14I have a friend who tried to get a friend through Conny two or three years ago.
34:18to enforce its rent control measures.
34:20He is still involved in a court case to this day.
34:24My apartment is managed by a Bavarian property management company.
34:28But one of them, who would have thought it, belongs to a private individual in Bavaria.
34:32I'm worried about a termination of tenancy due to personal use.
34:34Should I be able to get that approved?
34:36Do you know if there's any record of this happening before?
34:41Or can the landlord basically say, yes, I'm terminating your lease now due to personal use?
34:47Oh, my daughter doesn't want to move to Berlin after all.
34:51And another idiot pays the full rent again.
34:55Is something like that possible?
34:56Very legally complex.
34:57I can't give legal advice or anything like that.
34:59I can only recommend to everyone who is a member of a tenants' protection association or a Berlin tenants' association
35:05and seek legal advice.
35:08That's a tricky thing.
35:09There are people who say, "Don't do that if you risk having to use it for your own purposes."
35:14And there are other people who might advise you differently depending on the situation.
35:19Find out what you can do there.
35:21There is definitely a risk of that.
35:23I know of cases where that has happened.
35:26But you should probably double-check that.
35:28Okay, so that means it won't be recorded anywhere?
35:30So, in principle?
35:31So the data situation isn't at all favorable.
35:34Understood.
35:34Yes, I almost suspected as much.
35:36Perhaps also as a supplement.
35:37We have also shown how many loopholes the rent control law has.
35:41Your case is such a classic example.
35:43And that's why there are definitely demands, because we also had a rent cap in Berlin at one time.
35:48That proposal was then overturned, and a rent cap was introduced at the federal level.
35:53That these considerations you have don't necessarily have to lie with the tenants themselves.
35:58That one becomes active in some way, with an uncertain outcome, with existential anxiety about losing one's apartment.
36:07Thank you.
36:08I think we still have time for two quick questions.
36:10One from the internet, please.
36:11Exactly, the internet wants to know if you've also considered including an automatic response to landlords.
36:21The implication is that their offer may be illegal.
36:25I'm trying it now, so it's about the platform we've been thinking about.
36:32Okay, yes, that's obviously the most obvious feature.
36:35But I think that's just how it would be here; you couldn't upload anything that violates such laws.
36:41It's actually quite simple.
36:42Thank you.
36:46Now, to microphone number one, please.
36:48I found the graphic you showed very interesting, with that price recommendation.
36:53And in other fields, this has already happened: when such interest group prizes, for example price calculators from the Chamber of Architects, were published,
37:02that this then failed in court due to antitrust law.
37:07Was there ever an attempt to sue for that?
37:10Because that is clearly price fixing and should actually be prohibited under antitrust law.
37:16I actually know that.
37:17I also have no knowledge of antitrust law.
37:19I just know that so far, nothing has stopped the corporations.
37:21That's why I don't have much confidence in it.
37:24But I'm not familiar with that.
37:29I think we have time for a quick question.
37:32If you have a quick question, then...
37:34I have a brief comment.
37:35Basically just questions.
37:37But I just wanted to say that you touched on the topic of unearned income a little bit.
37:44And point to a socio-economic issue called land value tax.
37:52Do some reading.
37:53That would help a bit with the whole issue, I think.
37:59Many thanks again to everyone involved and of course to the speakers.
38:02A huge round of applause.
38:14A huge round of applause.
38:32A huge round of applause.