- 7 months ago
Hustle culture is often sold as success. But for many young people, the pressure is growing, from rising costs to an uncertain future of work. On It’s About YOUth, we speak Madiha Fuad, CEO of PlusVibes, and Hanson Chong from ISIS Malaysia discuss what hustle culture is really costing today’s youth.
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00:00Hello and welcome to It's About Youth, I'm your host Fah Anashe. Now for many young people today,
00:12life feels like a constant race. Juggling studies, side hustles, internship, part-time jobs and more,
00:19all while trying to keep up with the cost of living. This endless hustle, is it really the
00:24path to success or is it taking a toll on people's mental health, especially the youth. Now here to
00:30talk about this are two of my guests, Hansen from Isis, Malaysia, as well as Madhya Awad from Plus
00:35Vibes. Thank you so much for joining me both of you. Thank you for having us. Right, okay, we want
00:41to talk about hustle culture and how it's affecting youth. But I think we need to paint a little bit
00:46of picture on what it is and how is it defined and how is it impacting this generation, right? So
00:52from both of your perspective, maybe Madhya, we can start with you. How did hustle culture become so
00:57deeply embedded in how we define success today? Well, that's a good question, right? Because when
01:04we're thinking about hustle culture, it's always, I need to do this, I need to be at a certain stage
01:10in order to be successful. But I think different people have different definitions of success,
01:14whether it's career, family, whether it's building goals or a business. As an entrepreneur myself,
01:22for me, being successful would mean my business grows every single year. But I also think it's
01:29the culture started to develop more because people started to have higher ambitions. They wanted more.
01:35So that means you would then think that, okay, if that person can do it and it's visible on social
01:41media even, why can't I do it? So I want to do that too. And that's what develops this whole hustle
01:47culture that, okay, I see that person being a role model, being able to do it. Okay, I want to try do
01:52it too. So I feel that's the context of it, that when it's more visible, people want to try to achieve
01:59certain things as well. But I think the key here is that it's always about the perspective of hustling.
02:06Sometimes you might think, okay, I want to achieve a certain way, but you don't take breaks in between.
02:11And that's where we lead into mental health, burnout, and then the whole struggle of am I doing enough
02:17for myself? Right. I mean, talking about visibility there, of course, compared to before, social media
02:22has always been a place nowadays where people are, you know, uploading their successes and showing
02:28their lives. And not their failures. And not their failures, obviously. So I guess this is part of the
02:33visibility that you mentioned just now. Hanson, what about you? What's, especially from an economic
02:37standpoint here? What's your perspective on this? Yeah, I think Maria did a great job in, you know,
02:42painting a picture of what hustle culture looks like. I think from my perspective, what makes
02:46hustle culture so embedded within how we define success? I think there are two perspectives that
02:51we can take. One is from an individual perspective, just building on what Maria has said. It's become
02:57entrenched because it's empowering to believe that I can achieve success by the work of my hands.
03:04But really, this perception encourages people to really blame themselves when things don't
03:10really work out. And that's how mental health crisis might arise from that. And the other
03:16perspective, I think from a societal perspective, creating this illusion or perspective that success
03:24depends entirely on your individual effort serves the interests of people who might benefit from
03:29people who buy into this hustle culture and overworking. And it also absorbs people in positions
03:34of power, perhaps that can change some of these structural issues to avoid accountability.
03:39Right. Okay, I want to pick a little bit about what Hanson is saying here. You know, some people
03:46or some youths are saying that they are actually forced into this culture. So it's not really about,
03:51you know, whether we want to be successful or whether, you know, we want to keep up with our friends,
03:56for example, but they are forced into this hustle culture just to survive. So rising living costs,
04:01for example, stagnant wages, job insecurity, those are some of the stuff that we hear from youths almost
04:06daily. So Hanson, if you don't mind, from an economic standpoint here, is this pressure real or
04:12are expectations just simply higher today? Yeah, I think some of these realities are definitely real.
04:18Just to illustrate my point, let me just give the example of perhaps buying a house, which I guess
04:25many people consider a quintessential mark of financial achievement. Before this show, I dug into
04:33some of the numbers. 20 years ago, the median house price was $195,000, $160,000, sorry. And a fresh
04:41graduate can expect to earn nearly $2,000. This is a dug out from a Bank Negara report that was published
04:47in 2005. If you work out the math, the mortgage rates stand at around 40% of what a fresh graduate can
04:56expect to earn in the labor market. And right now today, this rate stands at around 45% to 70%. If you are
05:03a better graduate, if you are lucky, perhaps you can get a better job and getting a house is not as difficult
05:10for you. And this is just considering buying a house. We haven't factored in the fact that Dawson reported
05:15in 2024, degree holders have an unemployment rate of 20%. That's one in five degree holders. And that's
05:23also, I think it points to some of the, like we mentioned, structural issues like stagnating starting
05:28wages and also the increasing cost of living and crucially, the cost of services that we consider
05:36important, right? Like housing, education and healthcare. Yeah. I mean, there's definitely two
05:42two sides, two sides of the coin here. Yeah. I feel that there are people who sort of entrust
05:46themselves to be in the hustle culture because they want to be, they want to be successful
05:51and they view success with a certain number or certain societal norm. But also like you said
05:58just now, you know, there's structural issues that kind of force a lot of youths today to have
06:03to be in this position, to have to work two jobs and to have to take, you know, into consideration
06:10all this, you know, buying a house, buying a car and how much that weighs on them. Um, so
06:14talking about them, you know, we talk about how all these structural issues are present and
06:19how hustle culture has sort of embedded in, in use today. Um, Maria from a mental health,
06:24you are a mental health advocate and you work a lot with organizations, corporates, um, and
06:29entrepreneurs, for example. Um, talk to me a little bit about, you know, the most common
06:34mental health issues you see among young people today living in this kind of situation. How do
06:39they usually show up and at what point does ambition actually cross into the line of burnout,
06:45anxiety, or even depression, for example? I love that question because it's true when
06:50we're looking at it from a general perspective of, um, youths working in corporates, for example,
06:56the system itself, you have a nine to five job, but at the same time, it's not enough. So you
07:01have to work gig jobs or you have to work, you know, you do your passion side hustles, but
07:07in the end, you still burn out here because you're always working. You don't have time
07:11to rest. Um, in that context, I would say many people burn out, um, simply because of
07:18the expectations and the actual pressure, financial pressure and economic pressure that people
07:23have. Um, but I'm going to flip that on the side because being an entrepreneur, um, and dealing
07:30with different types of entrepreneurs as well, who want to grow their businesses in the end,
07:37you know, that you have to hustle a certain period of time to achieve growth. So the satisfaction
07:44then would be, okay, let me look back at my year. Did I grow? Did I not grow? I think the issue here
07:50in terms of the mental health issue is not identifying the small wins and thinking that success means I'm
07:58already up there within one year. So that's the struggle that people have in terms of defining,
08:04okay, I'm hustling, but at the same time, not reaching a certain stage. So I become depressed.
08:09I become burnout. I become demotivated. And then I don't want to continue anymore. Um, so I think the
08:15structure here is to really reframe hustle, not as a form of, I need to be there a certain way.
08:22Hustle itself isn't toxic, but it's more of the perspective that, okay, if I don't get to where I
08:29am, I can reach for the stars, but if I get anywhere near the clouds, I'm okay. Or even if I just pass
08:35a certain ceiling, I'm okay. I'm growing every single year. And I think that's what it should be
08:41about. It's about acknowledging that we're growing every single year, whether you are learning a new
08:46skill, whether you are buying a car, whether you're building a family, whatever it is, life,
08:51every chapter in our life is about growing. So I think that's the context of it, not seeing it
08:56as a failure if you don't achieve. Um, and that's where mental health can be contained a little.
09:03Right. So it's about, from what you're saying, taking a step back a little bit and setting maybe
09:08smaller goals and setting maybe, um, a little bit achievable goals and making sure that we don't get so
09:17caught up with, um, social media or, you know, people who probably have a lot of, um, head start
09:24or privileges that can get there faster and just sort of, sort of assess the situation and figure
09:29out, um, how you can achieve that realistically. Right. Everyone has a different journey. So aim
09:35for the stars. Okay. But your path towards there, some people might take longer. Some people might be
09:40shorter. In the end, it's about being happy and content with your own growth journey.
09:45Right. Okay. I mean, I like that. I like that. All right. Okay. So if you talk about hustle culture
09:50here, um, we talk a little bit about, you know, the structural issues surrounding it and, and how we
09:55have to sort of redefine what hustle culture is really about. Um, I want to go a little bit deeper
10:01in a sense that we want to see is hustle culture really an individual mindset or is it a systemic
10:07issue created by economic insecurity and workplace expectations? Right. And I think drawing to that,
10:13um, with the challenges that are at hand here is work life balance actually even realistic for
10:19today's youth. If you want to talk about, you know, solving some of these challenges that are at hand,
10:24maybe Hanson, we can start with you. Yeah, sure. I think that hustle culture is really created
10:31by one workplaces that reward long hours and constant availability and to some of these emerging,
10:40perhaps not new, but, uh, some labor arrangements that normalize short-term contracts. I mean,
10:45we mentioned about gig work and platform work and other, uh, performance based, uh, pay mechanisms.
10:52So I think this is also part of what we've been talking before, right, on, uh, structural issues.
10:57When wages fail to keep up with the cost of living, when stable jobs become harder to find,
11:04individuals have little choice but to buy into these narratives surrounding, you know, workplace
11:09expectations, uh, new forms of more precarious labor, uh, arrangements. People just have little choice
11:15but to accept these conditions. And I think the danger with hustle culture really is that it can be
11:21self-reinforcing. Tough economic situations, economic insecurity encourages individuals to hustle.
11:30This hustle is then normalized and perhaps even celebrated and glamorized,
11:34but this normalization is just further entrenching, uh, a system that relies on individual overexertion.
11:41So I think thinking that hustle culture is a individual mindset problem, shifts the responsibility
11:49away from employers and institutions and blames individuals for outcomes that are largely shaped
11:55by the structural constraints that they face. Right. What's your thought on this?
11:59I agree. It's a systematic, systematic, systematic issue, system issue. So I think it's more of
12:07when you're in a company, what happens is you see everyone working, you see them climbing the corporate
12:14ladder. And then sometimes you think, Oh, okay. You have a colleague who in the end says, Oh,
12:19I can't make it make ends meet. I'm about to start a family. I need to do a side hustle, a side job. And
12:25you think, Oh, that might be normal. So then you then look into yourself and think, Oh, what side hustles
12:31can I do? I'm really good at marketing. For example, let me do a side business, which is,
12:36I'm going to develop my own marketing agency. For example, this has become a trend. You see
12:42young people working, not just their nine to five, but then building their own side hustles on the
12:47side. And then feeling that, wait a minute, I'm working all the time. Where am I actually spending
12:53time to have fun, to live life, to experience new things. But then again, do they have a choice?
12:59Because when we talk about commitment, like you mentioned earlier, I need to buy a house,
13:03I need to buy a car, I need to start a family, all this costs money. And when we're thinking of it,
13:08it's we're sandwiched in this, this system where we generally don't have a choice. But now you can
13:17see this from a different perspective, because I always believe in anything. There are two sides to
13:22it. You can stay your nine to five jobs. Yes. But then you don't have that certain ambition,
13:31the ambition of, okay, maybe I don't want to drive a certain type of car. Maybe I don't want to buy a
13:38certain type of house. You're nine to job, nine to five job. Okay, fine. You can stick to it.
13:43But if you have ambition, which we see in social media, visibility and all that, you're thinking,
13:48wow, it's so fun to have that. Or maybe I want to travel here. You have ambition.
13:54That's where it translates into that hustle culture. So it relates back into an individual,
14:00what they see, what they experience, their circle, their environment. And then it goes back to,
14:05do I want that? If I want that, I have to be in this hustle culture.
14:10Yeah, I mean, definitely, I think if we look at it, you know, overall,
14:15youths are definitely stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to this, right? Because
14:19at one side, the systemic issues of low wages, you know, skill, reskilling, upskilling,
14:29or even, you know, cost of living, for example, are making you unable to escape from the hustle
14:35culture. At the same time, there's also, like you said, the individual mindset of people wanting,
14:40or in corporate, for example, wanting to better themselves and comparing, you know, when it comes
14:45to social media and all that, and not knowing, you know, how to set smaller goals or how to achieve
14:52certain things that, how to define success, right? So there's definitely sort of two groups that are
14:57experiencing hustle culture at the same time. And they're both sort of stuck in escaping them,
15:03right? Okay, I think we get the overall picture of where hustle culture is really in Malaysia right
15:09now. I think we're going to discuss a bit more about, I guess, solutions and also the future of work,
15:15the future work that might add to these anxieties that you mentioned after this break.
15:34Welcome back to It's About Youth. I'm Farhana and today we are joined by Hansen from Isis as well as
15:39Madiha from Plusvibes to talk about the hustle culture that are impacting youths today. We paid
15:44the picture a little bit on what are the challenges and why are, why and how youths are impacted by
15:50this. I'm going to add a little bit salt to this, a little bit of, you know, salt to the wound in
15:56talking about the future work and how that's going to impact the hustle culture that are befalling youth
16:02even more. Hansen, we'll start with you. So AI, automation, definitely reshaping the job market
16:09right now. Are young people today hustling for opportunities that may not even exist in the
16:14future with all this advancement? Right. I think that's a great question and I think there's a
16:22real sense of anxiety among young people and this anxiety is not unfounded. At Isis Malaysia we recently
16:29just published a policy brief on novel AI technologies and the future of work in Malaysia
16:35and what we find is for young people the challenge is twofold. Now many entry-level jobs are being
16:42exposed to automation by generative AI. We are already seeing evidence of this from the US for example
16:48using large-scale data that covers millions of employees and at the same time it's also the jobs
16:55that require a degree that will be most exposed to generative AI. So it really is like a double whammy
17:02right? The notion that higher education and a white-collar job is the path to economic security,
17:11this notion is increasingly being challenged and young people who are hustling with this vision
17:16as an end goal might find themselves increasingly disillusioned. But the opposite is also quite
17:21dangerous. And I'm thinking about people who are responding to this uncertainty by pivoting into
17:29gig work, platform work, other hustles with low barriers of entry but potentially very lucrative
17:36short-term returns. The problem with this path in my opinion is that they do not build durable,
17:45transferable skills that help young people over the course of their career and over the course of
17:49their life. And the unregulated nature of these new forms of hustles, I've already talked about
17:56worker protection mechanisms, dispute mechanisms with your employers and social protection remains
18:02underdeveloped in these sort of hustles that people are getting into. So I think this is just how the
18:08future of work looks like for young people. It's a bleak picture but I guess we can discuss solutions
18:14later on as well. Yeah I mean definitely I mean if you talk about data centers for example we want people
18:19to be filling up these data centers but are there enough people who are equipped to be filling up these
18:24data centers for example. I think you know we are talking about a lot of advancement in technologies here in
18:30Malaysia but we sort of forget where people are actually and how do we re-skill and up-skill this
18:37to fill up you know this kind of position later. So definitely an important point that you brought up.
18:42You also talk about you know anxieties when it comes to future work and I think this is where you
18:46come in Madiha. How does this uncertainty about the future work the sort of bleak perspective that
18:52Hansen has painted just now affecting young people today? Okay so we do a lot of on-ground events right
18:58mental health awareness talks and that's where we gather data to see what are the major areas of
19:05concern what are they feeling and across Malaysia we see youth struggling with self-esteem thinking that
19:14if I'm going to graduate am I going to get a job? What am I going to get a job in? Because if I don't
19:20know how to use AI which right now there's dominant AI tools that people usually use but in the end is that
19:27enough what other things do I need in every single different industry there's an AI tool that we might
19:32not have heard of so people are thinking okay am I going to get a job that suits me am I going to be
19:39happy or am I going to have low-skilled jobs right and the high-skilled jobs are only for those who
19:46are able to access certain types of tools and knowledge so anxiety-wise yes massive but I don't want to cut it
19:54there I also want to talk about the possibilities and opportunities that there are so many good
20:01online courses that people can take and the reason why I bring this up is because I meet a lot of people
20:08who do take and I'm like what is the certification and I was like oh yeah I found it in my free time
20:13it's a free course that I can do online to learn about this and I'm like wow you went the extra mile to
20:20learn new skills so are you hustling I would say you are hustling to learn new skills because you
20:27need to continuously adapt continuously evolve and I feel that whenever you're always self-learning
20:34learning new things increasing knowledge you never lose out because you're building like you mentioned
20:40transferable skills strong basis foundation of discipline adaptability curiosity and this kind of
20:48skills you can apply in any whether you become an entrepreneur whether you become a corporate
20:53whether you do anything so yes anxiety is at its complete highest but possibilities and opportunities
21:00are also there right I think Maria has already segued into some of the solution that we're talking about
21:06so I'm looking at possible you know upscaling and rescaling on your own in terms of addressing some of
21:13these problems that are propping up because of hustle culture so I guess Hanson we can go back to you
21:20let's talk about solution what should you know we have identified some of the structural problems that
21:25exist you know we have identified that use are in a between a hard place between a rock and a hard place
21:32when it comes to all this what are the solutions to probably not you know redefine hustle culture or
21:41navigate it at this point in time yeah thanks for the question and I really like how Maria you
21:45mentioned some of the opportunities that might arise and sharing some some of the stories of how
21:50individuals might be looking for opportunities to upskill uh themselves as well uh I think individuals
21:56have a part to play but we shouldn't just place the owner solely on an individual we should also look at
22:01how people in positions of power policymakers can consider ways uh can consider certain solutions right and some of
22:09them that we have highlighted in the policy brief that I've mentioned before is extending social
22:13protection thinking about currently in our social protection framework who is missing out who remains
22:19unprotected whether you are a gate worker or not you are equally likely to be affected by generative ai
22:25if you're in the same occupation so there's no reason why one group of workers should be should
22:30receive some benefits while others should not uh returning to the point on upskilling and reskilling
22:37having a lot of online courses that people can go to is excellent and what policymakers can really
22:42think about is how do we align these online courses what do you actually get at the end of it sure you
22:49attain the skill but how do you signal this skill for two employers when you're actually in the job search
22:54are there ways to provide credentials credentialing or even micro credentials to workers or individuals who have
23:02completed these courses can they be aligned with some of our existing qualification frameworks the the mqf
23:08for example can accumulating these different credentials and skills eventually count towards a degree program
23:14I think these are sort of the areas that we can explore in order to support people who are taking
23:19up this opportunity to upskill and to reskill and just one last note that I just want to like leave
23:26is with the future of work there are certain jobs that will increasingly become more valuable
23:34office jobs clerical jobs data analysis jobs a lot of finance jobs even or software engineering jobs can
23:41be performed by generative ai but some of the most essential jobs in our society for example care workers
23:47providing care providing treatment some of the nursing for example remain undervalued
23:54in our economy so perhaps what we should be looking at moving forward is how can we restore
24:01dignity human dignity to work so that work is not a prerequisite to your participation in society
24:09whether on but you know everyone deserves a basic level of human dignity that can be achieved through work
24:16or not all right that's very nice another part I like that um there are so many different ways
24:23right in order to build an upskill another part I feel I mean coming from the mental health industry
24:30coming from the whole aspect of entrepreneurs need to build community whether you're an entrepreneur or not
24:36I feel that being surrounded by people who motivate you by a good networking industry or whether it's
24:46entrepreneurs or whether it's with friends who align with your values is so important because from there
24:53you kind of get different information different knowledge I've been in different types of circles
24:59different age groups as well and you're thinking like oh this age group and this industry they upskill
25:05themselves in this kind of way they hustle in this kind of way they relax and have coping mechanisms
25:10like this and you learn from them and then when you shift and go in this different age group or this
25:15different um circle they have different learning coping mechanisms so I feel that being exposed to
25:22different types of people different types of network different types of opportunities will really shape
25:28your perspective in a more fuller circle rather than being just here thinking that okay
25:34if I do this I'm going to achieve this and then when you don't achieve it that's when you get
25:39so stressed and so burnt out and you're thinking what am I doing wrong but actually it's because your
25:44perspective is just one-sided you're not looking right and right so when you expose yourself to more
25:50things and then we talk about whether there's opportunities for networking right but I feel that if you really
25:56do search for it there's conferences there's community events there's so many different things
26:02so all in all the hustle culture is going to be there um yes it will affect mental health but what how
26:11you can handle it is really your coping mechanisms who you surround yourself with setting achievable goals
26:18and really structuring okay success for me in this chapter is like this and this is what I'm going
26:24to do to achieve it um whether I reach this or not or whether if I drop down a few steps it's okay
26:32I'm learning and I think that's the whole mindset that everyone should have right there's a way to manage
26:39it um hopefully with a lot of support and a lot of um attention to all the structural issues I feel
26:45definitely right okay that's all the time we have unfortunately thank you so much to the both of
26:49you here's to a healthier brighter brighter year ahead that's all from all of us thank you for
26:56watching I'm Fah Anasheh we'll see you next year bye
27:15you
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