00:00To talk more about this, we can bring in Massimo D'Angelo, who's a research associate at Lowborough University, London's Institute for Diplomacy and International Affairs.
00:10Thank you very much for being with us on France 24. As we mentioned, Leo has repeatedly criticised the US government's treatments of immigrants in particular.
00:20What do you make of his comments? Is he overstepping as Pope?
00:23Good afternoon, everyone. Well, even before when Pope Leo was simply Cardinal Prevost, he was quite vocal in denouncing what the policies of the United States were regarding migrations and migration policies.
00:42So I think that basically he's been coherent with what the Cardinal before thought and now even if it's Pope.
00:52Of course, probably the style has changed, especially I believe it has changed from comparing to the style of his predecessor, France.
01:01He's probably less vocal, but I think still the message that the new Pope is delivering and probably he needs some time to get used to this new role.
01:12But it seems to me that it has increasingly made his message clear and somehow criticising directly the decisions of the United States, not just in terms of migration, but I think also the role that the United States is having now for as a mediator in the Russia and Ukraine conflict.
01:32So I think it has started to be quite clear in the message that the United States is delivering right now.
01:39And earlier this month, Leo appointed a pro-migrant archbishop to the post of Cardinal of New York, replacing a conservative.
01:48What's the significance of this move?
01:50Yes, clearly the previous archbishop of New York, Dolan, was quite a conservative and I would say controversial figures on many aspects.
02:04The new figures is very similar to the new archbishop of New York, Hicks.
02:09It's somehow very similar to the new Pope, someone who has spent, of course, he was born in Chicago, in the Chicago area, as the new Pope, but also spent most of his life in Latin America.
02:25And in this sense, it's also a continuation of the design of Francis of going, talking with the poor, in the poorer areas of the world, in what Pope Francis was calling the peripheries of the world.
02:40So, again, clearly, it was not, I mean, it was a powerful message and a clear policy, a clear direction of what we can expect from the, from this new, from this new Pope.
02:56And this decision in New York, I think, was clearly in line with this, with his ideology, with this message.
03:03Probably not as vocal as we were used to seeing Francis, but again, I think it was a clear message to the United States as well to show what is the, what is the path.
03:17And I would say that Trump, also notably Trump, has decided not to go to confrontational against the Pope,
03:27but he's also adopting quite an unusual strategy towards the Pope that is not common for Trump,
03:34who instead likes to directly engage and confront his opponents, his adversary.
03:40But also Trump, I think, is playing a bit differently with the Pope.
03:45And given this, what extent, or to what extent does the Pope have the potential to influence, perhaps not policy in the U.S.,
03:55but at least public sentiment among Christians in the United States?
04:02Well, I think we should not look at the role of the Church like in two heavy political lenses.
04:10But it's true that Pope Leo is a very popular figure in the United States.
04:18First of all, because, as your correspondent also was saying, he was the first U.S.-born pontiff and the first Pope born in the United States.
04:26Clearly, he has a popular support.
04:28And I think we should not expect that the previous strategy embraced by Francis, who was a Jesuit,
04:38he had a completely different approach, and he was also quite vocal.
04:43He wasn't, he had clearly a different style.
04:46Of course, he had some positive aspects, but he had also some risky consequences, especially within the Church.
04:54He might be, he might have created some tensions.
04:58But it's true that what I think is that the Pope is quite effective in denouncing what Trump is doing well or not doing well.
05:08He was quite vocal denouncing the plan that the United States had dealt with Russia and with Witkow.
05:17And he denouncing that this was clearly break, it was, this deal was, the risk was to break apart the historic relations between Europe and the United States.
05:29So it seems less and less shy to oppose some of the United States policies.
05:36And on the other side, I think that Trump has understood that he is a popular figure and he's not treating Pope Leo as Sleepy Joe or Joe Biden or Kamala Harris.
05:48He understood that this is a completely different level of discussion.
05:53And indeed, it seems quite silent.
05:56He's not responding to the attacks moved by the Pope.
05:59And J.D. Vance, the vice president, even invited the Pope for a state visit to the United States.
06:05So Trump is very smart on this.
06:07And I think he understood that he can't go too far.
06:10He can't have a confrontation with the current Pope.
06:14It would be too risky.
06:15And you mentioned that Leo has commented less.
06:18He's been less outspoken than his predecessor, Francis, regarding the state of democracy in the U.S. and elsewhere, of course.
06:27Why do you think that is?
06:31This is very interesting.
06:32Probably he's less afraid of speaking, probably considering his background.
06:38I think also biographies in this sense might help.
06:43But he's been less afraid also to defend Europe.
06:47And this was quite unusual.
06:48I think if we think while somehow Francis was a bit more ambiguous, he used the term that Europe and NATO were barking against Russia, it seems to me that this, in this sense, this Pope is a more Western Pope.
07:10And also he's more concerned with some of these principles, the defense of democracy.
07:17So he seems that he has embraced these principles and he has started to defend this publicly in a quite stark way.
07:27Do you think his words can sway any of the parties, for example, in Ukraine and Russia as they go through the endeavor of peace talks?
07:38Well, this is a very hard question to answer.
07:44Clearly, it seems to me that the Pope and the Church is an institution that needs to talk with everybody, with everyone.
07:56And on many occasions with Francis, but with Leo, they offer themselves to be a sort of mediator within the two parties.
08:08But it is also true that for a just peace, we also need to recognize who was the aggressor, who was the victim of the aggression.
08:18So clearly, taking a clear stance can help, I think, in the support of the of the of the of the of Ukraine.
08:27But I'm not sure that, of course, it might help in terms of creating a sort of consensus and seeing that there is also such a high moral stance, support from the church towards the victim, towards Ukraine.
08:42But I think that Putin will hardly listen to the church was not the case for Francis, who showed some more sensitivities toward Russia.
08:55And I think will be less likely to do this with with the new pope, Leo.
09:00All right. Massimo D'Angelo from Loba University, London Institute of Diplomacy and International Affairs.
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