- 11 months ago
Congress workers and various social organisations held protests in different parts of Rajasthan on Monday, demanding the protection of the Aravallis, a crucial mountain range in the state.
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00:00So are the Aravalli's under threat as the opposition and activists claim?
00:04Is North India about to lose, North and parts of Central India about to lose their green shield?
00:11Will mining in Aravalli's need to further desertification?
00:15Is this fear-mongering or is this the reality on the ground that needs to be exposed now?
00:21Let's turn to our guests at this moment.
00:23I'm joined by special guests. Chetan Agarwal is founder of the Climate Spring Innovation Integrity and Transparency.
00:33He's tracked the Aravallis for years.
00:35MD Sinha is former Principal Secretary Government of Haryana. He's looked at environment.
00:40Sangeeta Nair is core member of the Aravalli Bachao Citizens Movement.
00:44We also hope to be joined by Rajendra Singh, Max SA Award winner and described as the waterman of India.
00:50I want to come to you though, Chetan, first because the minister today is saying that there is fear-mongering going on.
00:57He claims that this 100-meter rule A is only as of now going to be subject to further discussion with the forests and geological departments.
01:09It's not cut in stone.
01:11Plus, 100 meters is from the very bottom of the landforms and therefore mining will only take place in a fraction of the entire Aravallis.
01:19How do you respond? Is Bhupendra Yadav being economical with the truth or do you believe that activists like yourself are fear-mongering as he claims?
01:33You're on mute. You're on mute, Mr. Agarwal.
01:36Yeah, just to clarify, I'm an independent forest policy analyst, so I'm not with that whatever firm was mentioned.
01:45Yeah, so Mr. Yadav is correct when he says that earlier only the top of hills which were more than 100 meters were kept in the Aravalli as per the mining department of Rajasthan.
01:58And with this, what the committee has proposed has gone slightly, they have gone one step further and they have said that if a hill is more than 100 meters,
02:07then the entire slope of the hill, the part above 100 meters as well as the part below 100 meters will be called Aravalli.
02:14What he has not talked about and which that report has also not talked about is what happens to the hills which are below 100 meters in height.
02:24So those will lose the tag of legal Aravalli. So currently, what percentage of the total area you believe would be below 100 meters?
02:36So there was a report in the press of two weeks ago in the Indian Express.
02:41So data from the Forest Survey of India was shared in the press and according to that data, they are in 15 districts of Rajasthan, which the Forest Survey of India surveyed on the directions of the Supreme Court.
02:55They found 1,18,000 hills. They have identified individual hills of 1,18,000 of which only about 1,048 hills are above 100 meters.
03:07So even if those entire hills are protected, that's only about 1,000 odd hills.
03:13And there are 1,17,000 hills which are below 100 meters as per the FSI and their mapping.
03:20So you are saying actually 99% of the hills could be below 100 meters, am I correct?
03:28Not could be. The FSI has done this mapping for over 10 years and come up with this data.
03:34So this data was not shared by the MOEF committee with the Supreme Court for some strange reason.
03:41So they have claimed that their definition will include more Aravalli area, but the data which in terms of number of hills, it's just 1% of the hills.
03:51Now you are telling me something significant. You are saying the expert committee appointed through the Supreme Court did not share this data with the Supreme Court?
04:03Yes. They just made a bold assertion in the court that the 100 meter definition will include more Aravalli areas than the Forest Survey of India's 3 degree slope definition.
04:16Okay. Sangeeta Nair, you are a member of the Aravalli Bachao citizens movement.
04:22Yes.
04:23You've heard what the minister has said today. He seems to suggest this is fear-mongering.
04:27He's assuring only 0.19% will come under mining. Why is it… do you trust the government or not?
04:34Sir, it's not a question of trusting the government. It is trusting the facts that they are telling us.
04:40Like Chetan has said, that is exactly what it is. I am not talking for any government. I am not going to be blaming anybody.
04:46Because this is not today's event. This has been going on for years.
04:49We have been fighting cases for Aravalli for years, trying to protect it from different challenges.
04:55So, right now what he said that almost 99 point, almost 9% will be open to mining or to deforestation and to desertification of the North area.
05:05So, you can understand what are the challenges we are going to face if this thing comes to force.
05:10So, in your view, your experience of being part of the movement is that you fear the worst, right?
05:17Absolutely.
05:18You fear that there will be rampant mining and rampant construction will be taking place across the Aravallis. Am I correct?
05:25Rajdeep, will be is not the question. It is already happening. And this is going to open more doors.
05:31You know, let me just play those visuals again. Mr. MD Sinha, you are a former Principal Secretary Government of Ariana.
05:38Just play the visuals of our reporter who went to the ground. And you are seeing mining taking place in Alwar even now, even before the Supreme Court order has come out.
05:50Which clearly shows that there is a complete blatant disregard for even established environment rules.
05:57And as was just pointed out by Sangeeta, this has not happened today. This has been going on for years.
06:02The Supreme Court according to Mr. Agarwal has not been told the truth about what the actual findings were about how many hills are below 100 meters.
06:12He says 99% of the hills that are there are below 100 meters and therefore could come under, could be allowed for possible mining or construction.
06:23Is the government aware of what is happening or is the government lying to the people of this country?
06:30See, this is not the first time that there have been attempts to change the definition.
06:35There have been many attempts and many, many esoteric definitions have been sought to be sold.
06:42There was one definition propounded that said that the Aravlis are not mentioned in the revenue record, so they don't exist.
06:49There was another definition that was propounded that said that any hills below which is not 500 million years older will not be Aravli.
06:57And this is the third one.
06:59So, since I have been in the field in the Aravli region for almost 30 years now, so I have seen a lot of times, I have seen officers being charge-cheated, I have seen ACIs being spoiled, I have seen officers nearly being arrested and all.
07:14The lobby, the mining lobby and the reality lobby is so powerful that they would continue, continue the definitional issue till a definition that suits them comes.
07:27In 2010.
07:28And this is across, this is Mr. Sina, across the states, Haryana, Rajasthan, Delhi, Gujarat, in all these states you are saying the mining and reality lobby.
07:36Money is the most apolitical of things.
07:41It cuts across all political things.
07:45In 2010, the Supreme Court itself did not agree to the 100-meter criteria submitted by the Rajasthan government and directed the FSI to do a study without taking into consideration the 100-meter criteria.
08:00The FSI did a study on behalf of the Ministry and submitted it to the court.
08:07For 15 years, that was not followed because that criteria did not suit.
08:14In fact, if you really talk about it, what is the need to define the Aravlis?
08:19It's a geological structure which has been present before the advent of man.
08:23Have we defined any geological structure in India for mining purposes?
08:27Are we going to define the Himalayas, the Ganga, the Yamuna tomorrow?
08:31If the Shivaliks are below a certain height, are they not going to be Shivaliks?
08:35So this is just obfuscation and a smokescreen to allow, to remove the policy framework for protection of the Aravlis.
08:44No, but should the court have not seen through it?
08:47Has the Supreme Court also failed us that the Supreme Court did not see through this?
08:52It is quite amazing that since I have been following the Supreme Court's order since 2002, the Aravli order, the whole series of Aravli orders in the MC Mehta cases.
09:03And this is the first time that the court has completely gone by an assertion made by the learned ASG in court, which categorically stated that the 100-meter criteria will include more areas than any other criteria.
09:19So that's a lie?
09:20So that's a lie?
09:21You are telling me the ASG of the country has lied to the Supreme Court?
09:26The report of the committee also does not give any data like this.
09:31So the statement was a very suomoto kind of a statement in the court, not backed by data.
09:40And in a way, having worked...
09:42See, I have no political affiliations.
09:44I am not a politician.
09:46So the entire issue can be settled in one minute if the Ministry of Environment just directs the FSI to release the data regarding the height of the hills vis-a-vis the two criteria.
10:00And the area of the hills, why the two criteria?
10:02I believe the FSI has already done a study, but the officers have been prevented from releasing that study.
10:09For some instance, if suddenly in government files the data gets lost, the FSI has enough wherewithal to reproduce this within two, three days.
10:21So let's talk about data.
10:23Let's not talk about...
10:24Yeah, you're making a very...
10:26You know, you're...
10:27Clearly, this is absolutely shocking what you're telling us.
10:30Rajendra Singh, Waterman of India, you are a MACSA award winner.
10:34You are saying that you are saying that Rajasthan, especially...
10:37But this is Haryana, Delhi, Gujarat...
10:40This is the protected biodiversity area.
10:43It is trying to stop it.
10:45And because of that, the issue of the water will increase.
10:50You want to tell us what is happening?
10:52What you are saying?
10:53Is it going to stop it?
10:55Or the minister is saying that you are trying to scare people.
10:59This is not the truth.
11:00Look, in 1988, I was going to the Supreme Court.
11:07And then, in 1991, the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court,
11:15which was in Sarisqa, which was in Sarisqa,
11:19in 200 square kilometers of the jungle,
11:22and then, in 1991, the Supreme Court,
11:25was called the Justice Wanker.
11:28When the government said that...
11:30... this soil is the country's highest...
11:31... the highest of theation of the Earth is the most vulnerable.
11:35If we are not going to save it, what will we save it?
11:38Then, the Minister of Environment had...
11:42... an last May 1902 to protect the soil.
11:45So, the Ministry of Environment always announced the story of the entire city of the jungle.
11:48notification
11:53from
12:037
12:10Thank you very much.
12:40Thank you very much.
14:44The Araglis were unrepresented in the court in this matter.
14:47The hills which were over 100 meters were kind of represented by the MOEF.
14:52But the hills which were below 100 meters, which is the vast section of the Araglis,
14:57were orphaned in a way.
15:00There was no one to speak for them in the court.
15:02Certainly not the MOEF or its committee.
15:07In fact, I joined as a young...
15:12I joined as a young probationer in Faridabad in 1991.
15:16So I have gone through what Rajinder Singhji mentioned,
15:20leading to the 92 notification banning mining in Faridabad and Alwar because of the water issue.
15:28And the 92 notification very well lays down the Aravli landforms.
15:34Gair Mumkin Pahaad...
15:35But are we saying this is therefore a...
15:39Now, what I am saying is that somewhere the government bureaucrats, the courts...
15:43Just, just, just let me finish, Rajiv.
15:44The Aravli notification of the ministry itself very clearly lays down all the Aravli landforms.
15:54The Gair Mumkin Pahaad classification is entered in all revenue records across these three states
16:00and has been working for the last 400 years.
16:04There was no need for any definition.
16:09It is, it, every, the committee itself in its report says that there is complete conventional understanding what constitutes the Aravlis in all these states.
16:18There was no need for a definition.
16:20The definition will only lead to mischief.
16:24Can I, can I just for a moment tell our viewers, I want you to see the numbers I'm about to put on your screen.
16:31This is what is happening in the country.
16:33Diversion of forest land in the last 10 years.
16:37Please take a look at these numbers.
16:382014 to 15 to 23, 24.
16:42Over 1.73 lakh hectares diverted for non-forestry purposes in 10 years.
16:4740,096 hectares diverted for mining and quarrying.
16:5240,000 hectares diverted for hydropower, energy and irrigation.
16:5630,000 hectares diverted for road projects.
16:58This is government's reply to the Lok Sabha.
17:00But that's not all.
17:01Just in terms of mining activity, just take a look at how much of land is being diverted for mining alone.
17:08And the numbers are staggering.
17:10I'm playing them on your screen.
17:11Year after year, they've gone up and they show that you've got non-forestry purposes.
17:18Many would say that's part of the new development paradigm.
17:22And that's the argument, of course, many will make.
17:24That this development is what we're doing.
17:28Sangeetha Nair, how will you respond to those who will say that, look, government needs to build roads.
17:33You need to, this is part of our connectivity.
17:36And therefore, we need to change definitions.
17:39So, first and foremost, yes, development, but at what cost?
17:45Are you going to destroy something to do a development?
17:49Secondly, the existing roads, are they maintained?
17:52Are they functioning properly?
17:54Is the traffic moving properly?
17:56Are we having last mile connectivity?
17:59We are not doing any of that.
18:00Then why are we adding to the load, making more roads, going into, you're not decongesting the cities?
18:07So, there are so many other issues which you can look at at the moment, rather than reducing the green cover, which is already so low.
18:15Sir, I mean, if you know what is the green cover of Haryana, you'll be shocked.
18:19The standard forest cover that we need to have is, I think, anything between at least anybody logically would say 20% to 30%.
18:28But, right, Haryana had a green cover of 3.6%.
18:34But, and also now that the reports.
18:36Yes, that's exactly what I was going to say, Mr. Sena.
18:38Actual cover is 2%.
18:39Now, with all this deforestation that has happened, we have gone, we were already in a critical level.
18:46At this point of time, at 2%, you can imagine we are literally gasping for breath.
18:50The, actually, the death mill is this Aravali.
18:54So, anything happens to that moment, we are in for a big, big problem.
18:58So, Rajainder Singh, what do you say?
19:00Rajainder Singh, what do you say?
19:00The people say that it's going to be a good quality.
19:02No, because of this project, it's going to be a good quality.
19:04Do you not stop the quality?
19:07It's not the quality.
19:09This is a good quality.
19:10When there was no quality.
19:12When there was a good quality and Sanskritity in the world,
19:17The GDP of Paris was 32%.
19:21When there was a good quality and Sanskritity in India,
19:27Now it's a miracle.
19:57When we had to learn the world and we could learn from it, then in our work, which we call
20:06the 5th of Mahabhut, the earth, the earth, the earth, the earth, the earth, the earth,
20:10the earth, the earth, the earth and the earth.
20:12When our God was this, then the God was the Mandir and everything else.
20:17You said a great thing.
20:21The God is the Mandir, the God is the Prakriti.
20:25And India's first great eco-warrior, I can tell you, was someone called Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi.
20:32There was no bigger eco-warrior than what Gandhi was.
20:35And he didn't need to do it by going to a temple.
20:38And I think God resides in nature, but I appreciate my guest joining us.
20:42I'm glad that there are some wake-up calls that have been given by all four of you.
20:46I hope Supreme Court judges are listening to what you're saying.
20:50Because clearly the judges need to now ask for data.
20:53It's not enough to have reports.
20:55You need hard data before you make definitions.
20:58Thank you all very much for joining me here at the moment.
21:02My take.
21:03The concerns over the Aravlis are only the latest wake-up call for India's growing insensitivity
21:10to environment concerns.
21:12Or at least the government of India's growing insensitivity.
21:14The fact is, the destruction of forests, the encroachments in coastal areas, the pollution
21:19of our rivers, mining and construction in eco-sensitive zones has carried on over a considerable period now.
21:27Sustainable development is a mantra in climate change conferences.
21:31On the ground, there is a growing disregard for environmental rules.
21:35This can have frightening consequences as we have seen in recent times with the devastation
21:40in hill states like Himachal and Uttarakhand.
21:43The fire in a Goa nightclub that was built on a salt pan land.
21:47The horrific landslides in Wayanad last year.
21:50I don't know how many more wake-up calls it will take for governments to realize the cost
21:55of this environmental degradation.
21:57Maybe there are no votes to be garnered in raising environment issues
22:01as they are in appealing to caste or religious identity.
22:05Jati or Dharm par aap vote le lete ho.
22:07Or giving cash handouts.
22:09But don't forget this.
22:11You destroy nature, it will find a way to strike back.
22:15And no religious fervour or temples being built will protect those
22:20who choose to put greed above greenery.
22:24Let me repeat that.
22:26No religious fervour will protect those who choose to put greed above greenery.