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15:03Dokonano IRREZ,ife.
15:05kontradiction of their rhetoric.
15:07I mean, I have always said
15:09that we have patriarchal structures
15:11everywhere. So it's a patriarchy.
15:13I don't know any society that is free,
15:15unfortunately, is free from
15:17violence against women that are free from
15:19patriarchal structures.
15:21But the far and extreme right try to present it
15:23as this is something that is coming to Europe
15:25from elsewhere. And now at the same time...
15:27So it's not migration, it's a patriarchy, that's a problem.
15:29I would say so, because do you
15:31know any society that is free of those problems?
15:33I do not, unfortunately. I mean, there are
15:35countries and regimes such as the Taliban
15:37regime, where it's, of course,
15:39much, much worse.
15:40But I also come from a country with
15:42very high numbers when it comes to
15:45violence against women and domestic violence.
15:47So trying to say that this is
15:48a problem only in some places
15:50is not correct.
15:52Okay, well, just for a second, let's stop
15:54here, because I want to bring in now
15:56a new voice.
16:02And now in reaction to the European Council's
16:04decision to reform the EU migration
16:06pact, which you alluded to, and introduces
16:09now a solidarity
16:10pool, the Hungarian Prime Minister,
16:12Viktor Orbán, said on social media
16:14that, quote,
16:16the latest Brazilian decision
16:18requires that from next July, Hungary
16:20must either take migrants in
16:22from other European countries
16:24or pay for them. I want to make it
16:26absolutely clear, and that's a quote,
16:29for once and for all, that as long as
16:30Hungary has a national government,
16:32we will not implement
16:34this outrageous
16:36decision. Now, my question
16:38to you is, does Viktor Orbán
16:40have a point?
16:41Yeah, well, Sweden is among
16:43those countries supposed
16:44to take the most
16:46migrants through this
16:48solidarity mechanism, and I wonder
16:50has the Commission even looked at
16:52how many migrants Sweden has
16:54taken during the last
16:56decades? No, they have not.
16:58They have not taken that into
16:59account, so instead, we will have
17:02to pay in to Brussels a fee for
17:05not receiving forced migration
17:08upon Sweden. I think that's a
17:10principle in breach with
17:11subsidiarity. That's why I voted
17:14against that principle, and that's
17:16why I claim that it's morally wrong.
17:18The Italians, the Spanish, the Greeks,
17:19they'll say we need help, and that
17:20means either financial compensation
17:21or a quota. How do you respond to
17:23that?
17:24That should be managed through the
17:25ordinary EU budget. They should get
17:28help. They should get EU
17:29financing for border barriers, which
17:32they are not being provided with at
17:35the moment, which my opponent is
17:37against. So that we could offer, but
17:40not by implementing a system in
17:42which Sweden is supposed to accept
17:45migrants by dictate from Brussels.
17:47And on this point, either you take a
17:49quota of people or you pay to
17:52facilitate, obviously, financial
17:53assistance. Some would argue the
17:55issue is that that's not really how it
17:57works. The core problem is the number
17:59of arrivals to deal with it. You need
18:01to bring down that migration. This
18:02migration pact will not work in real
18:04life, will it?
18:06I think it depends very much on what
18:08other types of policies and actions
18:10the EU will do in terms of migration,
18:12like how we succeed in terms with
18:14legal pathways, for example.
18:16As long as there are no legal
18:17pathways, we will continue to see
18:19irregular flows of migrants doing this
18:22very dangerous trips over the
18:24Mediterranean. And I sincerely hope
18:26that the Sweden will not walk down the
18:28path of Hungary where you openly
18:30disobey binding EU law. So I think
18:33that this solidarity mechanism is a good
18:35part of this asylum and migration policy
18:38pact that was decided last mandate.
18:41Because at the moment, the biggest
18:43pressure, of course, is directed at these
18:46countries in the southern part of Europe
18:48just because of their geographical location.
18:50But they don't want the money. They want people out.
18:52Exactly. And I think they have a point there.
18:53They say, we don't want people in.
18:54I think they have a point there. I don't
18:55think it's fair that they introduced this
18:57possibility of buying yourself out of
18:59solidarity as part of this solidarity
19:01mechanism. So I think it would be much
19:03better, actually, if you would then
19:05require countries to actually accept
19:08migrants and hopefully also that the
19:10relocation can be done on a voluntary
19:12basis.
19:12So accept migrants and relocation.
19:13From the point of view of the migrants.
19:15That would lead to a massive crisis of
19:17legitimacy. Brussels forcing migrants upon
19:21unwilling member states. Can you imagine
19:23the popular reaction? Well, I think that
19:25parties like mine would thrive. So, so,
19:28à la bonheur.
19:29But it's also, I mean, it is also Brussels
19:31that has decided to use these rules about
19:34you having to apply for asylum in the first
19:36country that you are right to. And this
19:38is what has created the pressure on
19:40southern Europe. So whether we like it or
19:42not, this is a European question.
19:44Okay, let's take a short break. We've
19:46got to take a short break here on The
19:48Ring. Please, however, stay with us. We'll
19:50be back very soon with more political
19:52punch.
20:02Welcome back to The Ring, Euro News' new
20:04weekly show. I'm joined by MEPs Charlie
20:07Weimers and Lee Anderson. And the idea
20:10here is to bring the European Parliament's
20:12debate to your couch. So what about you? That
20:16is the question. What do you think are the
20:18most important issues that the EU is
20:20facing? When asked about the most
20:23important issues facing the European
20:24Union in a poll, responders most frequently
20:28cited the war in Ukraine and immigration
20:30followed as the second most significant
20:33concern. The international situation more
20:35broadly was mentioned by 90% of the
20:38responders, while security and defense
20:40appeared highlighted by 18%. Immigration, of
20:44course, Western Europe is living with the
20:47consequences of a liberal migration policy. And
20:52we need to deal with that now. We need to fix the
20:55problems that other politicians have caused through a very
21:00reckless policy in which they let in a whole lot of
21:04people who never really had asylum reasons. Is Europe changing
21:08too much? And when you hear Europe should stay Europe, does that mean Christian and
21:12what? Well, I mean, for instance, my party is among the biggest
21:20among people with an immigrant background in Sweden. So it has nothing
21:24with skin color to do. It has with a wish to to have our countries remain what it
21:32used to be when people came here. I do not think that social cohesion is based on
21:37on what religion or ethnicity you share. I think social cohesion is
21:41something absolutely that you can create in societies with well functioning
21:45services to trust, to building this culture of trust, to having well
21:50functioning services. And a big concern that we have now when we talk about these
21:54new migration policies from the EU side is that in many parts of these Europe is
21:59taking steps away from a human rights-based way of making policies.
22:06How is this a violation of international law?
22:08I mean, Josia Maloney was not able to do her Albania plan because it was contrary to EU law.
22:13It was also contrary...
22:15She was successful to the extent that everyone wants to replicate it now.
22:18Exactly. But it doesn't take away the fundamental problems legally. So it was contrary to EU law. It's contrary to some human rights law as well. And now they are trying to change EU law to make it legal.
22:33We've got to move on. However, I want to ask you a final question. The Italian prime minister, she made a bet which said, OK, I know this will end up in court, but it is still worth the risk because of the signal that it will send. Is that something that you agree? Sometimes playing around with the law politically may be useful?
22:47She did the right thing. And look what happens now. The EU is moving forward with the concept of return hubs.
22:56Even if it's illegal. Even at the risk that it may be illegal.
22:58Well, we're making it possible now for individual member states to make agreements with third countries to establish return hubs.
23:06Even if there's a possibility that it may be illegal.
23:08Well, it will be legal when we have voted. So it's on its way.
23:14And even if the European Parliament will accept these laws, that means a big step away from respecting human rights obligations and human rights safeguards.
23:24The EU member states will still be bound by international human rights treaties.
23:29So there will still be the issue of the European Convention on Human Rights, for example, that will still mean that countries have a legal responsibility for the people that seek asylum.
23:39So I do not think that the legal question will be dealt with at the point where the European Parliament accept these laws.
23:46I do think that there will still be big legal issues.
23:49Well, Leanderson keeps repeating non-refoulement. And that in practice, Leanderson, means that you don't want to deport a convicted rapist or terrorist if there's a slight theoretical chance of mistreatment in the country of origin.
24:04My policy is very simple. If you rape someone, if you murder someone, you go home.
24:10As I said, it is possible to deport convicted criminals. That is not the case.
24:16But the rate is very low.
24:18And it's not a theoretical. I mean, I really recommend to Charlie Weimers also to read some of the court cases from the European Court of Human Rights, especially on how they also actually have more liberal, more liberal line on these cases than they did before.
24:31For me, the most important thing is that Europe stays true to the fundamental values of Europe.
24:38It is dangerous that in this time with rising extreme right forces, we see Orbán, we see Putin, we see all of these authoritarian leaders who do not respect international law, that do not respect human rights law.
24:52We are hearing the same voices in Europe saying we should not, we should just disregard what the human rights treaty said and forget about these fundamental principles.
25:01That is dangerous for all of us.
25:03We continue now into our fifth and final round, so hopefully you're ready.
25:07I'm going to ask you a set of questions and, of course, the answer, I know it's difficult at times, but it must be a yes or no answer.
25:18So let's see if we manage to.
25:20The first question, do return hubs outside of the European Union undermine the right to seek asylum?
25:27No, because it's about returns of failed asylum seekers.
25:31Yes.
25:32Yes.
25:33When you look at return hubs paid by the EU, yes or no, that's taxpayer money?
25:39Yes, potentially.
25:40No, it is, it will be an extremely expensive and ineffective system.
25:45Human rights laws, are they becoming or preventing the European Union from protecting its own borders?
25:52Yes, it's stopping the EU from protecting its own citizens.
25:55So human rights have become a problem, yes or no?
25:58Human rights, international legislation has become a problem.
26:02No.
26:03States have the right to protect their own borders under international law.
26:06I think that is completely clear and nobody has contested that.
26:09Human rights law creates certain obligations on states to respect the fundamental rights of people seeking refuge.
26:17That is what we are discussing now.
26:19There's, however, a point which we want to treat very delicately and that is this tougher migration laws.
26:25Are they connected or could they be fueling the tragic accidents that we see in the Mediterranean?
26:31Do you see a connection?
26:32Yes or no?
26:33We're taking a big risk that leads to deaths.
26:35No, it's the open borders that incentivizes deadly boats over the Mediterranean.
26:43Yes, it is the lack of legal pathways for migration that creates the situation in the Mediterranean.
26:49Some countries assimilate better than others, yes or no?
26:51Absolutely.
26:52I mean, that's a no-brainer.
26:54This is a very dangerous part of the extreme rhetoric where they're trying to present certain cultures as incompatible with each other.
27:01And this, I mean, this is also, it's the same rhetoric that has been used, that was used on skin color, used to be used.
27:07And now we are talking about cultures.
27:09And final question, has your opponent in any way managed to change your mind, your views?
27:15No.
27:16Same question to you, but I can guess the answer already.
27:19No, surprisingly not.
27:20Thank you very much for joining us here on The Ring on Euronews.
27:25And as every week and as ever, we want to hear from you and get your thoughts.
27:29So please do write to us at thering at Euronews.com.
27:34And of course, see you soon on Euronews.
27:37And hopefully we can get a handshake, because that's also part of democracy.
27:40Thank you very much.
27:41Thank you very much.
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