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The Beat with Ari Melber - Season 2025 Episode 242
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00:00Washington, if I don't usually yell bombshell at you at the top of the hour, that's because
00:05while there's a lot going on and we're covering it all, we don't have a story like this every
00:09night. And this is politics, pure politics and real incompetence coming out of the Trump
00:16White House. This is a bonkers off the record interview. If you have been near a TV or phone,
00:21you've probably heard some of it. But I'm going to walk you through how the number one person
00:25in Trump's White House, the chief of staff, Susie Wiles, has basically torched the place
00:30rhetorically with brutal assessments. Again, Trump's number one aide. So she sees a lot.
00:36She's in the special meetings, the off the records, classified. And what she describes inside this
00:41Trump White House is a complete rebuke on so many issues. She says Donald Trump has a, quote,
00:50alcoholics personality. She also hits the president's policies on tariffs, immigration,
00:55and something that Trump has tried to have both ways and denied. She admits they are unlawfully
01:01prosecuting rivals. I'll get into how that works, but that's the headline. That alone would be a big
01:06deal. She might have just doomed more than one case that Trump is trying to bring. So there's the
01:12ethics of this. Do people uphold the Constitution? And then there's the competence of this. If your job
01:18is to advance the president's agenda, well, through these comments to Vanity Fair, she has
01:24compromised his agenda, ignited a firestorm. She's the ultimate insider. She's close to Trump.
01:29I can tell you during the campaign, when we would reach out to the campaign managers,
01:32she shared that duty basically with one other person as kind of the top.
01:36And you couldn't hardly ever get comments from her. No interviews. Trump has shouted her out.
01:41So Susie Trump, do you know Susie Trump? Sometimes referred to as Susie Wiles, Susie Trump.
01:51She's the great chief of staff, but the chief of staff, and she's fantastic. Where's Susie?
01:59Susie, come on, Susie. Look at Susie. Susie's the greatest.
02:05That's a rare shout out from Trump to a staff level individual. Returning the favor here,
02:10Wiles says that he, Trump, is like her father, an alcoholic. Quote, Trump has an alcoholic's
02:17personality. He operates with a view there's nothing he can't do. Nothing. Zero. Nothing.
02:22Now, Wiles is not actually saying that Trump, who famously doesn't drink at all,
02:26is some kind of alcoholic, but that he has an alcoholic's personality,
02:29which is striking coming from her working with him all day and night for all these
02:33times, that this is how she views him and how she deals with him.
02:37She contrasts J.D. Vance with Rubio, who says has some principles, while Vance went from opposing
02:43Trump to supporting him for what she characterizes as rank, self-interested opportunism.
02:51Again, Trump's top aide, still employed by him, by the way. Quote,
02:56Vance's conversion came when he was running for the Senate. I think his conversion was a little bit
03:00more political. She says Vance has been a conspiracy theorist for a decade,
03:05not exactly praised for someone who is a heartbeat from the presidency.
03:09She labels the leader of Project 2025, who now runs OMB, as a right-wing absolute zealot.
03:16And as for Elon Musk, who, unlike, say, Vance, has had more of a falling out with the administration,
03:21she says he's an avowed ketamine user, an odd, odd duck, as I think geniuses are. You know,
03:27it's not helpful, but he's his own person. Discussing some of the policies that the Trump
03:33administration advanced through Musk, for example, like going after USAID, foreign aid,
03:38she says she was initially aghast. And she says she told Musk, you can't just lock people out of
03:44their offices. No rational person could think the USAID process was a good one. Nobody. That is,
03:51again, quite the condemnation. One difference there is she may be putting the blame at someone
03:55who's no longer in the administration. But she goes on in this absolute bonkers Vanity Fair
04:00interview on the economy. There was a huge disagreement over whether tariffs were a good
04:03idea, some predicting disaster. She asked Vance to pump the brakes, but Trump went forward.
04:10Again, Vanity Fair writing, Wiles believed a middle ground on tariffs would ultimately succeed.
04:14She said it's been more painful than I expected. Again, these are the quotes of Trump's top aid,
04:21and they are quite different from the usual defenses we hear. And they are more credible attacks
04:27on the administration, its policies, and some of its top members. Why and how this came out,
04:33why she talks like this, we'll get into in conversation. But I want to go to the enemies
04:36list here, because more than anything else, which might just be politically embarrassing,
04:40Wiles has taken action through these words tonight. She has given evidence and confirmation
04:46of an unlawful prosecution on the enemies list charges, which means what she says,
04:51because she's a government official, is now probably court evidence and could doom some
04:56of the cases you see on your screen. As for the Trump revenge plots, she says, I don't think
05:02he's on a revenge tour. In some cases, it may look like retribution. And there may be an element of
05:07that from time to time. Who would blame him? Not me. So that's sort of her warmup. And if that's all
05:13she said, okay, debatable. Then, when Vanity Fair asked about New York Attorney General Letitia James,
05:19who the DOJ has now thrice failed to indict, she says, well, that might be the one retribution.
05:28That is a confession. That is potentially admissible in court. You have a top White House
05:34official admitting it's retribution. Cases are keeping score. Retribution is exactly the kind
05:39of evidence that defense counsel needs to get the case tossed. As for James Comey, she says,
05:46I mean, people could think it does look vindictive. I can't tell you why you shouldn't think that.
05:51I don't think he wakes up thinking about retribution. But when there's an opportunity,
05:54he will go for it. This is meaningfully negative for the DOJ case and plan against Comey.
06:03If she meant to hurt her own side, okay. If she didn't, that's why some people maybe aren't as good
06:08at interviews. Weill says she has a loose agreement with Trump that the score settling
06:14will end before the first 90 days are over. That was a planned deadline that he didn't meet
06:20because she admits the score settling continues. This is evidence of what is called selective
06:26prosecution, which A, can get the case tossed. B, can get other people in trouble depending on how
06:31judges view it. Weill says today the article is a disingenuously framed hit piece on me
06:37with significant context disregarded. Notice what she does not say and which makes her admittedly
06:45a little different than some around Trump. She doesn't deny saying these things. She doesn't
06:51say the whole thing is made up because she did say these things apparently. And there is good record
06:56of that. And some of these things will have repercussions long beyond the headache that many
07:01Trump aides and the president himself are likely nursing tonight. We have a Trump White House veteran
07:07turned critic, Sarah Matthews, on this very story when we're back in 90 seconds.
07:14Trump White House rocked from the inside and we have a special guest on this banana story. Sarah
07:19Matthews is a former Trump White House veteran and spokesperson for Home of the Brave. There you
07:24could see her on the job watching what was likely a press briefing. And while they got their work cut out
07:29for them tonight, your reaction when you read this interview? It was honestly refreshing to see
07:35because Susie Wiles gave a honestly brutal assessment of the Trump administration. She admitted
07:42that the tariffs have been more painful than she thought they would be. Something that obviously the
07:48Trump administration has been vehemently defending these tariffs and saying that they're good economic
07:53policy. She admitted she was aghast when it came to the handling of Elon Musk dismantling USAID,
08:00that they should be more careful with their deportations and cited an example of when the United States
08:07deported a U.S. citizen who was four years old and battling cancer. And then obviously her assessment
08:14of some of these cabinet officials across the board, her admitting that Attorney General Pam Bondi
08:19whiffed on the Epstein files and the handling of that calling Elon Musk an odd duck and an avid ketamine
08:29user. I mean, this is not something that you would typically hear from a current sitting chief of staff
08:35in the White House. This is something that would usually come out in a memoir. Yeah, memoir. I'll let
08:40you finish that. I'm going to leave these quotes on the screen for folks coming home. There's a lot going
08:44on. These are all quotes here from the number one official in Trump's White House. Alcoholic personality
08:50for the president. J.D. Vance, a conspiracy theorist, which means, in her view, that he doesn't deal in
08:56facts or is trustworthy. I mean, that's what that means. And the attacks on Musk, as you mentioned,
09:01do you have a view of how this came out? Is this one of those situations where it's not a live TV
09:07interview? There's not an audience of a thousand at some ballroom in D.C. And so she kind of got
09:13her momentum going? Or what do you think happened here? Yeah, she can't write these off as political
09:19gaffes. She sat down with this reporter 11 times. And so even though the White House defense is saying
09:25that these quotes are taken out of context, they're not saying that the quotes aren't accurate.
09:30Obviously, this reporter has all of these interviews on tape and could dispute that. And he has said as
09:35much. But the context really doesn't matter when you're looking at the things that she said.
09:40I don't know what the context would be that Elon Musk, who she let dismantle USAID and will
09:46potentially lead to the millions of deaths across the globe because of us withholding this aid,
09:52that he's an avid ketamine user. I don't I don't know what the context, what more context you need
09:57there. And so I just think that they're going to try to say that this is taken out of context. But
10:02the thing is, it's that she was a willing participant for these interviews that many
10:07of senior officials also participated in a glamorous photo shoot for Vanity Fair for this
10:12article. And I if I had to guess, I think that she says in the article that she only saw herself
10:19staying on the job for six months. The first interview that she did with this reporter was
10:24prior to Trump's inauguration. So I think she agreed to be part of this, thinking that she would have
10:30already left the White House. But obviously she's still on the job. And so I think initially she
10:34agreed, though, because she wanted to set herself up for her legacy to be viewed as the adult in the
10:40room during Trump 2.0. But now that she's still serving in this capacity and these quotes are coming
10:46to light, it does not make her look great. Really interesting. And again, you've been on the insides
10:51here reminding people that sometimes there are arrangements where people say, oh, they're going to
10:55be this political or loyal for this around amount of time. And a government of job has all kinds of
11:01limits. But then they're planning ahead with the publishing cycle, etc. And that she may have kind
11:07of outmaneuvered herself if she thought she was going to be in the clear. They certainly don't read
11:11like things that you'd say about your current boss at any job, let alone the White House. I also want
11:16to ask you about some of the substance that that gives us a little window into how these people may
11:20approach their jobs. As you know, in the first term, there were many people around Trump, including
11:25General Kelly, who said they agreed with a lot of the agenda, but they wanted to help him be a better
11:31version of himself or a better version of these goals. And people can debate that, you know, till
11:38the cows come home. But there's evidence of folks trying to do that on foreign policy, on economic policy,
11:45even in how he dealt with Mueller initially. Second term, we all know is a different story. What did you
11:49think of her description, which isn't as controversial, sounds true, that the first
11:55term people were trying to do that, and they got rid of those people in this term, she views her role
11:59as only distilling Trump. Like her view is just getting Trump to be anything he wants to be
12:05through government, which of course leaves out what most White Houses have, which is smart people
12:11with experience saying to the president, well, this might not be legal, or here's another way to do
12:16it. And does that explain both why this term is more unrestrained, but also, in many ways, less
12:21effective?
12:22Yeah, as you noted, Chief of Staff John Kelly in the first administration, he saw himself as the
12:29guardrails, that he was trying to curb Trump of his worst instincts and prevent any unlawful
12:34activity. Whereas Susie Wiles admits herself that she almost sees herself as his enabler, that she is
12:41there to facilitate his agenda, and she'll pick and choose her battles of when she pushes back on. She
12:47talks about an example where she was surprised that he wanted to pardon all 1,500 January 6 rioters,
12:54but at the end of the day, that she let it happen, that this was something he wanted, and that he
12:59wanted to see all these folks pardoned, even the ones who committed violent acts, and she couldn't
13:05win that battle, and so she just chose to go along with it. And I think that that is good that it sounds
13:11like she does push back on him occasionally, but obviously, at the end of the day, she sees herself
13:17as just there to carry out his agenda, even if it's at the detriment of the American people.
13:23Yeah, it's interesting you say that she is a bit of his enabler, given that she describes him as an
13:28alcoholic personality, and the hangover is felt by a heck of a lot more people than just him when you
13:35have this much power. Sarah Matthews, thanks for being here. We have insiders now previewing this
13:40Epstein Files deadline, three days out. Gretchen Carlson is here, that should be interesting. But next, we're
13:46going to turn to one of these special reports that we have been working on. We think it's important. It is about
13:51fighting Trump censorship and billionaires, and it's next.
13:58President Trump and his corporate allies are pushing hard to control more media. The Ellisons, Trump
14:04allies, now trying to buy CNN and its parent company in that hostile bid. They already bought
14:10CBS, which led to 60 Minutes Leader resigning over meddling in journalism and newsroom changes that
14:16came later. CBS also settling a thin Trump lawsuit to appease the White House. They ended Colbert's
14:22show. Critics see the pattern you see here, limiting people who stand up. Now, that company did say
14:30that the Colbert decision was financial. Other outlets, though, as you see, have been settling
14:35Trump suits left and right. Some, like Facebook, curbing fact-checking itself. Others are fighting.
14:42Kimmel and his supporters beat Trump's FCC, while newspapers, like the Times, are fighting back when
14:49Trump sues. So when we hear about standing up or speaking truth to power, it matters right now. And it
14:55can clearly also have consequences for the people willing to do it. We know that America faces big
15:02challenges on civil rights and political violence. It helps when we face them with independence and
15:07courage rather than normalizing them. Ebro Darden is known to many for doing exactly that with his
15:16voice and his radio show with Laura Stiles and Peter Rosenberg in New York, and through their
15:20interviews with politicians, he has spoken as an advocate for working people, forgotten neighborhoods,
15:26challenged right-wing extremism, and also problems he saw with D.C. Democrats. I mention this now
15:34because there's news on this tonight. But for context, consider that in the year after the January
15:416th insurrection, when some were saying, let's just move on, or that was just an aberration and not
15:46who we are as Americans. I want to show you Ebro's corrective declaration.
15:55American exceptionalism. We're the best. We're the greatest. Even right now, people who saw January
16:026th will fix their lips and say, this is not who we are. What are you talking about? We just saw it
16:08on television. It's clearly who we are. What are you saying? Donald Trump wins presidency. This is not
16:14who we are. Did you go to the rallies? Did you see what was happening on TV? It's clearly a part of
16:19who we are. Police kill black men in the streets. This is not who we are. It's been who we are since
16:26inception, since day one. Why do we keep acting like we're not this? Because we're programmed
16:32to think that we're better than we actually are. And we're going to have to come to terms with that
16:38if we're actually going to improve. And until we do, there won't be improvement. There's people
16:43who don't want to convict Donald Trump or any of his cronies because of the way it looks to the world.
16:49You know, we're not a banana republic. We don't, you know, jail our former politicians. We don't,
16:54we don't do that here. Well, we might want to start. We might want to start and fast. Otherwise,
17:01we'll just have more of this. This is who we are. Some truths are hard. They're not always well
17:12received. Ebro and his co-hosts knew that when they spoke out on their radio show, Ebro in the
17:17morning. They've referenced that. This dialogue right here that we're having on a public radio
17:26station. It doesn't happen. Eight o'clock in the morning in the biggest media market. No one's
17:31touching this. They are deathly afraid of touching this conversation. And 13 years in,
17:38that radio show was building a larger audience, began drawing more top politicians in the past
17:43few years than at its start, including a recent Andrew Cuomo interview as he was running against
17:48the Democratic nominee for New York mayor, which proved newsworthy. Ebro questioning Cuomo about his
17:54COVID record, harassment allegations and his infamous late Trump endorsement until Cuomo apparently hung up
18:02on the radio interview. And then in a total breach, the station's corporate parent pulled that interview
18:09offline. In journalism, that is blatant meddling in the independent work. And it may have been a sign
18:16because tonight the news is that that parent company, Mediaco, has abruptly canceled
18:23the entire show Ebro in the morning. The move was abrupt. There's no public plan for a new morning
18:31show yet. And Ebro publicly saying they were facing corporate pressure over their free speech.
18:37The major media outlets are folding up because they're trying to renew deals and licenses. And he
18:43said they need my blank talking anti Netanyahu, anti government progressive blank out of the way.
18:49He speaks candidly, as you see. He said talking about politics on a corporate run media entity is
18:56always risky. Fact check. True. A lot of the time. Now, that company, Mediaco, did not respond to
19:04requests for comment, which is a contrast, by the way, to the Ellison's Paramount. When they were asked
19:11about the Colbert cancellation, they denied motives of censorship. This company isn't saying they're not
19:17publicly denying what Ebro says about that pressure and the Cuomo interview, et cetera, so far.
19:24This cancellation is news tonight because this is a loss for independent media and local media and
19:30diverse voices. And it fits these two interlocking corporate trends in our current MAGA era.
19:37Government censorship over here. And then billionaires also controlling more media while they
19:45consolidate it over here. And that has obvious, basically sometimes unavoidable impact. It limits
19:54the reach of the very free speech that the Constitution is supposed to protect. This is bigger than right
20:00now or whether you agree with everything somebody said. It's their right to say it and have a free
20:05press. And in capitalism, the free press runs through these companies. We are witnessing the limiting of
20:11the number of people who can press the politicians for voters' benefit. And remember, it ain't supposed
20:18to just be TV hosts, let alone government-approved billionaire-owned stations. And this radio show
20:25that was just canceled, they did plenty of that.
20:30Hello, Secretary Clinton.
20:32Hi, how are you doing today?
20:33There has been a massive transfer of wealth from the middle class.
20:37We, the CBC, that introduced a package of bills yesterday that are about police accountability.
20:44We're advocating our communities.
20:46That's what I have faith in, is those hands knocking on doors, making phone calls, casting votes.
20:51Those are some of the candidates, many obviously now in office, who spoke on this show, Ibro,
20:57in the morning. And the hosts were out there, independent on politics and culture.
21:03Ibro also famously was an early critic of what he saw as Kanye West's emerging hate.
21:09He also confronted other artists about alleged battery against women.
21:13At a time where, in the culture, things can be just promotion, this was a place where people
21:20were really tested and debated. The other hosts, Laura Stiles and Peter Rosenberg,
21:24mixed culture with using that same platform to talk politics and civic life and have some hard
21:29conversations.
21:32I said, Kanye,
21:34the conversation's been open, bro.
21:38You're just not a part of it.
21:39And you're just chiming in right now because you got an album coming out.
21:43Are you having those conversations in your house about Black Lives Matter?
21:47You're talking about things you don't understand.
21:49And you're playing with things that people have died for.
21:53I keep saying I'm buying a Colin Kaepernick jersey.
21:56Because at least you can support him in that way.
21:57Because that's the only way I can support him.
21:59Congratulations, you played yourself.
22:00Because your dumbass, Kanye,
22:02and others like you have a tough time articulating your thoughts.
22:07And you need to shut up and sort to people who articulate thoughts well.
22:13There are people who study this, talk about this, have legislation on it.
22:17I mean, there's people who've spent their lifetime writing novels, books, research on this.
22:23But instead, your dummies jump up and use your platform to say nonsensical BS.
22:29Yes, black women having the highest mortality rate during birth.
22:36Because doctors don't listen to black women.
22:39The market isn't about helping the middle class.
22:40Rosenberg, we're not going to debate people.
22:43The market, most people in the market aren't in the middle class.
22:46But thanks for your call, Kate.
22:47Why aren't we going to debate people?
22:48I don't think I've ever minced my words about my feelings about Netanyahu on this program.
22:53The immigrants that come here, that sacrifice so much, our parents, our friends, our loved ones,
22:58the people that serve us every day, you know, that deliver our food, that fix our cars.
23:04A bunch of we do appreciate them.
23:06We take sexual assault here serious.
23:08And we can't, you know, get into details.
23:12Change the subject.
23:13I'm going for the walkout.
23:14We don't have to talk about nothing else.
23:15We could be done right here.
23:16All right, I'm going.
23:17Say this.
23:18I get emotional when I start thinking about what the black church means to us.
23:26The spiritual component of black people is the unbreakable point.
23:34That's just some of what made this show significant to a lot of people and having a place to do that and broadcast it.
23:42And I just showed you the politics, which the hosts say they were censored for.
23:46Ebro in the Morning was also a huge hub known nationally for artists and culture.
23:52And tonight, as this show ends after 13 years, we pay tribute to that.
23:58Sometimes it's just words just come to me.
24:00I don't know where it's coming from.
24:01You just put all of the heat on the album.
24:04It's just like the beat, like, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb.
24:08I'm willing to work with anybody, man, that has talent.
24:11You expect me as a human being to not want to defend myself because I'm rich?
24:15I'm Dora the Explorer.
24:17Like, Bob, backpack, shorts, t-shirt.
24:20It's more about the positivity side, man, than the upliftment of, you know, having a beautiful black family.
24:26People, they have time to heal.
24:29And they learn to live and they learn to love.
24:32We could talk slick all day as rappers.
24:33That's easy to do.
24:35That's like taking the easy way out.
24:37But what are you saying, though?
24:38People get mad when it affects them.
24:42They get involved when it affects them.
24:44There's more people hurting than eating in this world than anything.
24:47Who has done it better than me?
24:49Nobody.
24:50I back up any talk.
24:51I'm really slow jamming.
24:53I'm slow jamming all day.
24:56This radio show is ending, a loss for many listeners.
25:00Public reaction could still matter.
25:03We know the outcry against the attempted Kimmel cancellation was enough to ultimately
25:06reverse it.
25:09They had even sparked more interest and ratings in his free speech in the days after they
25:14beat Trump.
25:16But let's face it here.
25:18And yes, I'm speaking to you through the TV, but not everyone has national TV visibility
25:23or let alone Kimmel-sized fame or Kimmel's audience, which is a point he graciously made
25:29during that whole kerfuffle, advocating for others' free speech and telling people to pay
25:34attention the next time they come for you.
25:37And that's why it's easier, perhaps, to target voices who are less famous, who have fewer
25:43powerful allies, including in business, or who, as I'm telling you tonight, come from
25:47independent and diverse media.
25:49Now, these radio hosts are going to keep working on their show in the digital space.
25:55They've launched it on YouTube.
25:56You can Google it now if you want.
25:58It's the Ebro Laura Rosenberg Show.
26:03So the YouTube handle is Ebro Laura Rosenberg.
26:06At a time when some podcasts and online shows do reach more people than radio and TV, maybe
26:13these incidents and the effort to censor people will lead to other open, long-form digital
26:19shows and audiences connected.
26:23These hosts I'm telling you about and their radio rivals in New York, The Breakfast Club,
26:27really have helped pioneer a format that is now replicated in so many podcasts, tackling
26:32a broad set of topics from culture to politics, not just staying in one lane because of some
26:38assignment.
26:39It's a style that, when it works, can be, like, casual with depth.
26:42And in Ebro's case, it's an approach to accountability that left him with some critics and detractors
26:48on the right, and then on the left, and in the mainstream, and even in core hip-hop.
26:54And that's okay, by the way.
26:57Being independent in politics, culture, or anything often means being willing to repeatedly
27:02upset people who are sticking to certain teams or ways or partisanship.
27:07And so I'm telling you about this, if you know this show, why it matters.
27:12If you're learning about it now, it's in the wider context of those problems I mentioned.
27:18MAGA big government censorship and corporate media consolidation.
27:23We'll keep bringing you those stories here, as we value our independence and you supporting
27:28independent media.
27:29Tonight, we mark the end of a show that was about all those things.
27:34Independence and truth, as they put it, hard conversations, or what is sometimes called
27:39doing it for the culture.
27:42As for what that means or requires, well, I'll give the hosts the last word on that tonight.
27:49Originally, it was not doing it because you wanted to be famous or doing it for money,
27:58but I do this for forwarding the art of hip-hop.
28:02Hip-hop has always been an extension of the voice of not only the black nationalist movement,
28:07but also the community of the greater community of street culture.
28:11Whether you were black or Jewish or Puerto Rican in New York City, this was youth culture
28:17creating new things out of things that already existed, sampling and records and chopping records.
28:24So you were creating something new out of something that was already there.
28:30No, I was never, never, Brenda.
28:36Did she tell you, what did she tell you about the review and specifically, did she tell you
28:40at all that your name appeared in the file?
28:43No, no, she's, uh, she's given us just a very quick briefing.
28:49Donald Trump has fielded many questions about Epstein.
28:52The administration has confirmed that he's in the files.
28:55Trump's chief of staff, Susie Wiles, told Vanny Fair, we know he's in the file and he's
28:59not in the file doing anything awful.
29:02She says Trump was on Epstein's plane.
29:04He's on the manifest.
29:04They were, you know, sort of young, single, whatever.
29:10I know it's a passe word, but sort of young, single, playboys together.
29:15Not exactly the current defense we've heard from the White House,
29:19adding Trump and Epstein in a playboy sort of motif.
29:23But let me continue with what the Vanny Fair article says.
29:25She confirms Trump would sit for a deposition of Epstein if he had to.
29:29The administration has caught flack for breaking its vows of Epstein transparency.
29:34Then, of course, being forced into signing the law to force them to do that, which they would not.
29:39Wiles says that Pam Bondi completely whiffed on appreciating that that was a very targeted group that cared about this.
29:46Calling the Epstein documents given to conservative influencers binders full of nothingness.
29:49She's alluding to how the DOJ basically tried to trick people, adding there's no client list and it sure as hell wasn't on Bondi's desk.
29:57That is an open criticism of the sitting AG from the sitting chief of staff.
30:01The administration faces this Friday deadline now on that bill that was passed over Donald Trump's long, basically year long opposition.
30:10Democrats say they'll take him to court if they break the law.
30:16If the administration withholds some documents unlawfully, we will know.
30:25If they abuse narrow exemptions to hide the truth, we will know.
30:32As we look towards this Friday's deadline, as well as the new fire on all of this with that interview, we're joined by a veteran journalist, Gretchen Carlson, who's also a women's advocate and co-founder of Lift Our Voices.
30:52Thanks for being here.
30:53Great to see you again.
30:54What is Susie Wiles thinking?
30:56What do you think of her Epstein comments?
30:58Her inside voice came out.
30:59Right.
31:00Look, she's actually saying what I think a lot of Republicans are saying behind closed doors, right?
31:06They don't have the spine to say what she has said.
31:10This must not be popular, though, in Mr. Trump's orbit today.
31:14They all came out, you know, and said, of course, that this is horrible media and they attacked all of them sort of in course all at the same time.
31:21But look, this is all on tape, 11 interviews.
31:24She said all of this, and President Trump cannot be happy about this tonight at all.
31:30I think it's highly ironic, Ari, because she's supposed to be the gatekeeper.
31:34She was like the control maven.
31:37And yet she's the one who is, I mean, I think honest, but in their minds probably out of control tonight.
31:43Yeah, they're going to be upset with her.
31:45As long as she has Trump standing, she can be as strong as a cabinet member, but she's clearly now crossing with Bondi and trying to say, and maybe Trump likes it.
31:54Oh, it's not Trump's fault.
31:55It's not the White House's fault.
31:56This is all Bondi's fault.
31:58Then she talks about how she's aware of the nuances of the coalition.
32:03Again, chief of staff in the new interview says people inordinately interested in Epstein are the new members of their coalition.
32:09Interesting.
32:09People that I think about all the time, she says, because I want to make sure they're not just Trump voters, they're Republican voters.
32:15It's the Joe Rogan listeners.
32:16It's the people that are sort of new to our world.
32:18It's not the MAGA base.
32:20You know, to read between the lines here on an intramural MAGA fight, and I've interviewed a lot of these people and you've been around them.
32:25It would seem that she, Wiles, is positioning herself as the true, knowledgeable sort of patron of all of this and that Bondi misfired.
32:36Bondi doesn't get it and some of the other people didn't get it.
32:39But what does that help her really if, at the end of the day, it still hurts Trump to be in the files?
32:43Yeah, it doesn't help.
32:45Well, I'd like to just focus in on what she said, though, about those voters, because I'm not so sure it's just the Joe Rogan new Trump voters that are affected by this.
32:56Remember, it was the MAGA base that demanded that the Epstein files be released.
33:01Now, do I think that they cared about the women necessarily, the survivors in this?
33:06No.
33:06I think that they thought there were going to be a lot of top-level Democrats that they were going to.
33:10By the way, she also says in this interview that Bill Clinton was never on the island.
33:13I mean, just to put that in perspective, because that was 100 percent against what Trump says.
33:18But back to these voters, I think it's been problematic for Trump in this term that he cannot control podcasters.
33:24He cannot control influencers.
33:27That is the—and now, ever-growing, he can't control members of Congress on the Republican side.
33:32But I think this is a much bigger percentage of voters than she said.
33:36She said this is 5 percent of the voters.
33:38I think it is much bigger.
33:40And I think the MAGA base—I think she's wrong.
33:42The MAGA base will be incredibly upset if these files are not released on Friday.
33:47Yeah.
33:47And that goes to the deadline that they're barreling towards.
33:50As for Clinton, you mentioned, I mean, she doesn't have to actively disagree with her boss.
33:53There are many ways to answer questions.
33:55We all know that.
33:55As you point out, she says on the Clinton front, quote, President Trump was, quote, wrong about that.
34:01He was wrong about the Clinton angle.
34:03As for Maxwell, which is leniency afforded to her, look, in journalism, we always try to track this down.
34:11We don't have all the details on what led to that unusual transfer.
34:14Wiles, interestingly, while being pretty critical of Trump on other things, says she and Trump—we'll put this back up—weren't consulted about that controversial trafficker transfer.
34:26The president was ticked, she claims, which also makes him look a little out of control of that.
34:31The president was mighty unhappy.
34:33I don't know why they moved her.
34:34Neither does the president.
34:35So I'll give you two points to respond to.
34:38One, the same thing of throwing Pam Bondi under the bus.
34:41Oh, look what they're doing over there.
34:43That's kind of Washington stuff, but it could matter if it hurts Bondi.
34:46And then, two, if they think it's such a bad idea to give lenience to this sex trafficker, why don't they move her back?
34:54And why does he keep saying he doesn't know whether or not he would pardon her?
34:58I don't believe that for a minute, by the way.
35:00You don't believe—you think she's lying.
35:01I don't believe that for a minute.
35:03She said in that interview that Todd Blanche, deputy to Pam Bondi, was the one—former personal lawyer to Donald Trump—
35:09was the one who went down there on his own.
35:12It was his idea.
35:12I don't believe that for a minute.
35:14I think that this was orchestrated because it was just yet another tactic of delay,
35:20and it was trying to get the MAGA base off their backs by a performative interview with Ghislaine Maxwell,
35:27where she says that Trump did nothing wrong.
35:30Maybe that's true, but I think it was an effort to try and get Congress off their backs,
35:36the committees off their backs, MAGA off their backs.
35:38And I don't believe for a second that there wasn't a reward there by transferring her to that lower prison.
35:44And that plot, as you—as you describe, is stupid, because getting her to say in public Trump did nothing wrong adds to the right-wing clamor for the docks.
35:55Oh, he did nothing wrong.
35:57Then the docks won't affect their side.
35:58Let's see the docks.
36:00Exactly.
36:00So it really kind of didn't make sense.
36:03It didn't make sense, although I think that that was part of the deal, supposedly, you know,
36:08say that Trump didn't do anything wrong because then maybe it will all go away.
36:12I think if I was thinking about how they were trying to orchestrate it, that's what I was thinking at that particular time.
36:18The problem is that President Trump has kept this story alive for almost a year now because he's the one that keeps bringing it up and tries to get rid of it with all these tactics.
36:30But it just evokes more news stories.
36:33And the more that he says that it's a hoax, that just irritates his base even more.
36:39And I think the biggest thing that changed this entire story was it moved out of MAGA wanting to know about this into the general population.
36:47It became part of popular culture where if you went on the streets right now, I bet more people could tell you about Epstein than they could who the vice president of the United States is.
36:56I think that this has really gone into 80 to 90 percent of the general public having heard about the Epstein files.
37:02With 30 seconds to go, your preview for Friday, will we see will we see files by midnight?
37:07I think if we do, they're going to be heavily redacted.
37:11But I think that there will be some sort of an insurrection if not enough information is released about this.
37:18I really do.
37:19And as you heard from the Democrats, there'll be lawsuits and we'll have to see how this plays out in the courts if they don't release it.
37:26Right. And the lawsuits are sort of make my day because the Democrats have been dropping certain chunks just to get this back in front of everyone.
37:34If if the DOJ hides and fights and you have months of lawsuits and who wouldn't cover that?
37:39I mean, we know how media works. Of course, you're going to cover that.
37:42The president signed this thing and now he's fighting his own law.
37:44You know, that kind of thing. So, Gretchen, always great to get your perspective.
37:47Thank you. Appreciate you coming on the beat.
37:48When we come back, we'll hear more of the tributes, including Michelle Obama on Rob and Michelle Reiner.
37:59Tributes pouring in for Rob Reiner, who was found dead along with his wife, Michelle, on Sunday.
38:04Prosecutors now say the son of the Reiners will be charged with their murder.
38:08Michelle Obama praised Rob and Michelle in this new interview from last night.
38:13What they have always been are passionate people in a time when they're not there's not a lot of courage going on.
38:23They were the kind of people who were ready to put their actions behind what they cared about.
38:29And they cared about their family and they cared about this country and they cared about fairness and equity.
38:35And that is the truth. I do know them.
38:38Late night hosts also discussing Reiner's work, his legacy, his career and impact.
38:48He's one of the smartest and funniest people I've ever met.
38:51What a tremendous loss. And he leaves behind such a legacy.
38:54He was a man who set an example.
38:58And there's such a value in that.
39:01And we have to do everything we can to not make setting an example a lost art.
39:12It's the interview that rocked a White House that is used to some level of drama and chaos.
39:17Vanity Fair's really blockbuster interview with current White House chief of staff Susie Wiles,
39:22who says Trump has an alcoholic's personality.
39:24J.D. Vance is a conspiracy theorist.
39:26Musk an odd duck, among other charges about him.
39:30Now, insiders discuss how she is Trump's enabler.
39:35She, in the interview, defends the idea that a contrast to the first term is
39:39she's there to let him do anything as if there are no moral or legal boundaries
39:44on our constitutional republic.
39:46It is a contrast to how one of her key predecessors viewed the job.
39:50Take a look.
39:53When I was in the White House, for that matter, DHS, I was, you know, originally...
40:00The conversation would be, you know, Mr. President, that's outside your authority or, you know,
40:08that's, you know, that's a routine youth who really don't want to do that inside the United States.
40:13When he would tell me that he wanted to do something, 100% of the time I'd check with the White House counsel
40:21because oftentimes he wouldn't have the authority to do what he wanted to do.
40:30Following your legal authority.
40:33What a concept.
40:35That's our show.
40:35The weeknight starts now.
40:36The next day.
40:37The next day.
40:41The next day.
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